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Re: Matsutake Ecology (in California) **Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico

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  • Dimitar Bojantchev
    I just uploaded the paper by Bergemann & Garbelotto analyzing the root tip associations found on Notholithocarpus densiflorus in our area of California. The
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 1, 2011
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      I just uploaded the paper by Bergemann & Garbelotto analyzing the
      root tip associations found on Notholithocarpus densiflorus in
      our area of California. The authors have listed several
      Tricholoma collections, but have not put species names (good
      manners in general when not sure!).
       
      If one blasts collection G58 (Genbank: DQ273424.1) one can see
      that it matches closely multiple collections of “matsutake” from
      the PNW, typically (but improperly) names as Tricholoma
      magnivelare.
       
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MushroomTalk/files/bergemann_garbelotto2006.pdf
       
      I think that this amounts to a pretty solid indication that we
      have matsies associated with the Tanoaks!!
       
      ------------------
       
      As a separate mini-project one could get quality Matsutake
      sequences from Genbank and build a few trees and get a sense of
      close/distant the geographical representatives of that species complex
      are. I may prepare an example to tackle at the molecular class at
      SOMA Camp if we have enough time, or enough interested parties to
      do some separate after hours meetings.
       
       D.
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Cc: SOMA
      Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 4:45 PM
      Subject: Re: Matsutake Ecology (in California) **Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico

       

         I just spoke on the phone to a buddy who for years was a circuit commercial picker but like a lot of us would rather now not bend down so much any more so he buys, mostly.   He is a person with and of great mushroom lore and has some real hard worked-for evidence too.  Arora and Connie Green know him and most take his word on certain things mushroom.  Absolutely.
        On Allotropa and matsutake:  He has seen this plant everywhere he has seen matsutake but he has also seen it where there are no matsutake.
        On manzanita and matustake:  He has picked matsutake under them but always there "seems" (his word) to be a tan oak in the vicinity.
        We also got to talking about other mushrooms.  Like many of us he predicts--and has seen so far--a real good winter mushroom season for candy caps, hedgehogs, blacks, yellow feet, golden and white chanterelles too.  Best year for whites in some time, he says. 
        He spoke of three kinds of hedgehogs.  Sweet tooth (rapandums) he calls "spreaders" because he's seen them bucket-sized.  "Belly buttons" are "the pale little ones," but then he calls the "more orange colored ones" simply "hedgehogs."  Hmm.
        I asked him, again, if he'd come to SOMA Camp and just sit by the big fire and spin some mushrooms tales.  Told him I'd feed him real good and that he'd be a star attraction.  Our conversation sort of ended right there.  Again.  As usual.
      Happy New Year,
      Patrick
       



      From: Ryane Snow <rsnow@...>
      To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, December 31, 2010 2:00:52 PM
      Subject: Re: Matsutake Ecology (in California) **Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico

       

      I have found Matsutake in pure stands of Notholithocarpus densiflorus as well as in association with Arctostaphylos columbiana.


      ~Ryane

      On Dec 31, 2010, at 1:10 PM, Ron Pastorino wrote:

       

       Matsutake and Manzanita.   Yes, I would stake my dubious reputation that Matsutake grows in association with manzanita.
      I have found them almost yearly in a stand of manzanita that I believe is "Mt. Tamalpais Manzanita (Arctostaphylos hookeri ssp. montana) in Marin.
         These stands are usually on hard serpentine outcrops on which little else grows and the Matsies are always growing directly underneath.
        However, I've only found them in one location.... which will not be revealed anytime in the near future.
          Ron



      From: Dimitar Bojantchev <dimitar@...>
      To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, December 31, 2010 10:54:37 AM
      Subject: Re: Matsutake Ecology (in California) **Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico

       

      

      Ok, I think I am getting the point here – and I am also getting
      very cold feet from this discussion so far. Little that I read so
      far amounts to (1) convincing observations from California
      and (2) solid scientific evidence.  If the second is not
      available, then we may want to concentrate on the first,
      which we can do ourselves.
       
      The USDA list of matsutake hosts (which I read once) gives me the
      chills too – sounds like a broad compendium of all that is
      written on the subject, but how much of that actually is based on
      quality recent studies. I do believe the observation powers of
      Arora, Blair & Co. from California do amount to something that
      needs to be explored deeper.
       
      The assertion that Allotropa virgata feeds exclusively on
      matsutake mycelia is very hard to swallow without some very
      serious study confirming that. I don’t doubt that it may be true
      somewhere, but to project that to everywhere… Its distribution
      matches very, very crudely the matsutake distribution. It almost
      doesn’t make sense that the two might be exclusively
      associated. That’s why I asked explicitly if people have observed
      that phenomenon in California.
       
      I do not have my sources with me right now, but we need to look
      at the environmental sampling too and see where matsutake EM has
      been found.
       
       D.
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 8:53 AM
      Subject: Matsutake Ecology (in California) **Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico

       

      It is far more likely to be the beach pines that are supporting the matsies, not the manzanita/kinnikinick. Just because a mushroom grows under a bush or tree doesn't mean that it is neccesarily MR with it.
      That's why UCB and Harvard are spending so much time in DNA analysis of MR nodes...you really can't tell what the MR associate is just by looking at the ground surface, or the plant above the mushroom.

      Kinnikinnick might well provide a low growing, moister microhabitat canopy for matsies to grow and thrive, tho, and looking in that habitat may well provide some fragrant and edible rewards...

      Debbie Viess

      --- In MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Hamilton <mycochef@...> wrote:
      >
      > Kinnikinnick is that low-growing manzanita on the Oregon Dunes which is
      > definitely associated with matsutake. Arora pointed this out to me some years
      > ago up there. It is often found near beach pines (P. contorta var. contorta
      > "shore," "sand," pine if that is the most correct name).
      > Non-science here: It looks and behaves a bit (to me) like our Sierran squaw
      > carpet but that is a Ceanothus, FYI, and hides natural morels at times (!), is
      > not a matsutake indicator and often grows near P. jeffreyi.
      > Happy New Year,
      > Patrick
      >
      > p.s. I covered up a lovely Sparassis at SPSP the other day to see how much it
      > will grow. Maybe one of you will find it.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Dimitar Bojantchev <dimitar@...>
      > To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thu, December 30, 2010 9:25:13 PM
      > Subject: Matsutake Ecology (in California) **Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico
      >
      >
      > Norm> Matsutakes, are mycorrhizal with Arctostaphylos sp.
      >
      > Ok, that the Pine Mushroom is associated with something other
      > than pine in California seems to match my superficial
      > observations to a certain extent too. Has there been any formal
      > study recently on that subject? What do the close and regular
      > observers of matsutake like you Norman, Arora and others say
      > these days? Are they pretty sure of that assertion?
      >
      > That doesn’t sound like the matsutake ecology from up North â€"
      > Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia. Is the ecology switch
      > sudden (geographically)? How far North does it start? This sounds
      > like a typical fungal Californication (a frequently observed
      > phenomenon when fungal organisms behave differently once they
      > cross into the hippie-trippy state).
      >
      > How about T. caligatum sensu auct. Calif. â€" I’ve collected that
      > up in Echo Summit (7,000 ft) without a Manzanita in sight.
      >
      > The sandy soil â€" is this an ecological requirement for matsutake,
      > or the sand is just an artifact we observe on the lower stem for
      > some reason?
      >
      > The Mexican matsutake â€" if not contiguously linked, or even if it
      > has, I’d wager that it is a different species than all else up
      > North as the allopatric speciation has run its course.
      >
      > The Allotropa virgata association â€" is this confirmed in
      > California?
      >
      > D.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > >From: norman
      > >To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
      > >Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:10 PM
      > >Subject: Re: [MT] Matsutakes in Mexico
      > >
      > >
      > >Matsutakes, are mycorhizal with Arctostaphylos sp. which is wide spread in
      > >the chaparral of southern California, the conditions that allow fruiting may
      > >be rare, but the possibility that it just has not been observed.
      > >norm
      > >----- Original Message -----
      >



    • debbieviess
      Since Allotropa is a parasite not a symbiont, it provides no benefit to the matsutake, and the matsie would actually live better w/out it! In other words,
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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        Since Allotropa is a parasite not a symbiont, it provides no benefit to the matsutake, and the matsie would actually live better w/out it! In other words, those two species are not inter-dependant, but one has a prefered if not exclusive host that it parasitizes.

        No reason that I can think of why matsies wouldn't occur in places where Allotropa doesn't grow, since it would be to the matsies' advantage to lose that candy-striped freeloader...

        According to Phil Carpenter, folks in Santa Cruz find their matsutake with chinquapin.

        Debbie

        - In MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com, Darvin DeShazer <muscaria@...> wrote:
        >
        > I agree with Dimi that it's doubtful any scientist would ever claim with 100% certainty that the two species HAVE to live off each other, but I did run across an article by Tom Bruns that presents DNA evidence of the connection at sites in both OR and CA.
        >
        >
        > Extreme specificity in epiparasitic Monotropoideae (Ericaceae): widespread phylogenetic and geographical structure
        >
        > M. I. BIDARTONDO and T. D. BRUNS, Molecular Ecology (2001) 10, 2285–2295
        >
        > Darv
        > SOMA Science Advisor
        > http://SOMAmushrooms.org
        > http://MushroomObserver.org - 125,000 photos & going up daily
        > http://darv.typepad.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Dec 31, 2010, at 10:54 AM, Dimitar Bojantchev wrote:
        >
        > > The assertion that Allotropa virgata feeds exclusively on
        > > matsutake mycelia is very hard to swallow without some very
        > > serious study confirming that.
        >
      • Darvin DeShazer
        This sounds logical, but I have not seen any proof for it. It s conceivable that the plant is making some desirable metabolite from the sugar and passing it
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 2, 2011
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          This sounds logical, but I have not seen any proof for it.  It's conceivable that the plant is making some desirable metabolite from the sugar and passing it back to the fungus, just to keep it pacified.


          Darv
          SOMA Science Advisor
          http://MushroomObserver.org - 125,000 photos & going up daily 




          On Jan 2, 2011, at 10:42 AM, debbieviess wrote:

          Since Allotropa is a parasite not a symbiont

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