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Clitocybe & Lepista

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  • Dimitar Bojantchev
    Working out my collections and adding many new photographs from the past 2 years. Here are some complete Clitocybe and Lepista pages. Mixing up European and
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 3, 2009
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      Working out my collections and adding many new photographs from the
      past 2 years. Here are some complete Clitocybe and Lepista
      pages. Mixing up European and California material.
       
       
      Some interesting Clitocybe collections from California will require
      more work and are still unreleased. I emphasized the iconography part
      only. I also believe that it is the most lacking, particularly for
      rarely illustrated species. One of these days may start putting more
      elaborate text descriptions, but that has been done quite much
      already, so not sure that's the direction to go.
       
      Note Clitocybe californiensis, an Oak stump species. I suspect it has
      never been photographed before (in color). At least I can't find it.
       
       
      I was pleasantly surprised to see that Index Fungorum shows Clitocybe
      fragrans and Clitocybe deceptiva as synonyms. I was about to write
      about that -- as Written up currently, no matter how one reads it, the
      C. deceptiva description shows no differentiating points from
      C. fragrans. Only some very vague mention of color, which is totally
      insufficient in this case. I have still illustrated them separately,
      but that's only for backwards compatibility.
       
      There are some Lepista species on the books in California that just
      don't make sense -- Bigelow's lists Lepista saeva/personata is one of
      them. I have never seen anything like it in our neck of the woods.
       
       
      Best,
       
         D.
       
       
       
       
    • Darvin DeShazer
      Clitocybe saeva is listed by Herb Saylor on the MSSF list. He only has one collection in the 1970-1980 fair lists and also John Lennie shows it at the Coyote
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 3, 2009
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        Clitocybe saeva is listed by Herb Saylor on the MSSF list. He only
        has one collection in the 1970-1980 fair lists and also John Lennie
        shows it at the Coyote Point fair in 1989-90.

        Denise Gregory shows it in her thesis from Monterey, San Mateo and
        Santa Barbara Counties. All with vouchers at SFSU.


        Darv
        SOMA Science Advisor
        SOMAmushrooms.org
        MushroomObserver.org - 43,000 photos & going up daily
        http://darv.vox.com/




        On Jun 3, 2009, at 8:03 AM, Dimitar Bojantchev wrote:

        > There are some Lepista species on the books in California that just
        > don't make sense -- Bigelow's lists Lepista saeva/personata is one of
        > them. I have never seen anything like it in our neck of the woods.
        >
      • Dimitar Bojantchev
        Hi Darvin, I think that these collections are very, very doubtful at best. I think that the collectors followed Bigelow and I doubt that they had any exposure
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 4, 2009
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          Hi Darvin,
           
          I think that these collections are very, very doubtful at best. I
          think that the collectors followed Bigelow and I doubt that they had
          any exposure to the original concept. As far as Bigelow -- when he and
          Smith transferred Clitocybe saeva Fr. to Lepista in the seminal paper
          "The status of Lepista -- a new section of Clitocybe" their names
          stuck behind Fries as authors, which might suggest that they knew the
          species well. But nowhere in there (as well as in his two volume set
          on Clitocybe) did Bigelow suggest any direct familiarity with the
          European concept. In fact, several tidbits in the otherwise timid
          comments suggests to me that he had never seen the real species. The
          collections cited are all Smith. Also, the singular collection from
          California is by far the most the most unconvincing -- the type
          material for Melanoleuca rudericola???
           
          Anyway, 40 years later it is good that: (1) we have sites like the MO
          to sift through what comes in California; as well as (2) having
          informed local collectors who venture out of the State and (3)
          outsiders looking in to keep us straight. Our responsibility though is
          to critically re-examine some of these early findings. In fact Bigelow
          and these researchers wanted it that way -- they always say "more
          research is needed".
           
          I still leave my original question to stand -- after having sifted
          through countless Lepista collections (some of the most common
          fruitbodies at Society id sessions, btw), has any of you personally
          observed Lepista personata in California?  Any pictorially documented
          collections of it?
           
           
           D.
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 8:18 PM
          Subject: Re: [MushroomTalk] Clitocybe & Lepista

          Clitocybe saeva is listed by Herb Saylor on the MSSF list. He only
          has one collection in the 1970-1980 fair lists and also John Lennie
          shows it at the Coyote Point fair in 1989-90.

          Denise Gregory shows it in her thesis from Monterey, San Mateo and
          Santa Barbara Counties. All with vouchers at SFSU.

          Darv
          SOMA Science Advisor
          SOMAmushrooms. org
          MushroomObserver. org - 43,000 photos & going up daily
          http://darv. vox.com/

          On Jun 3, 2009, at 8:03 AM, Dimitar Bojantchev wrote:

          > There are some Lepista species on the books in California that just
          > don't make sense -- Bigelow's lists Lepista saeva/personata is one of
          > them. I have never seen anything like it in our neck of the woods.
          >

        • Darvin DeShazer
          ... No need to speculate, go check them out. Dennis has them at SFSU. From Denise Gregory s Thesis p. 91: Habit, habitat and distribution. Gregarious,
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 4, 2009
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            On Jun 4, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Dimitar Bojantchev wrote:

            > Hi Darvin,
            >
            > I think that these collections are very, very doubtful at best.


            No need to speculate, go check them out. Dennis has them at SFSU.

            From Denise Gregory's Thesis p. 91:

            Habit, habitat and distribution. Gregarious, scattered, cespitose,
            or solitary, in soil, under mixed woods (pine and coastal live oak),
            or Cupressus macrocarpa; January and February. California, Colorado,
            Michigan, New York, and Oregon.

            Material examined. California. Monterey Co: Monterey City, 21 Jan.
            1988, HDT 51435. San Mateo Co: Wunderlich Park, 18 Jan. 1985, MTS
            368. Santa Barbara Co: Nojouqui County Park, near Buellton, 17 Feb.
            1989, HDT 51926. Material deposited at SFSU.



            > Also, the singular collection from
            > California is by far the most the most unconvincing -- the type
            > material for Melanoleuca rudericola???

            I checked Bigelow's Clitocybe book and I think you misread this. It
            was in the herbarium as a Melanoleuca, but was actually Clitocybe
            saeva. That means Bigelow saw it and changed the name. See the last
            sentence in the seventh paragraph on page 176 for a similar mishap.

            Darv
            SOMA Science Advisor
            SOMAmushrooms.org
            MushroomObserver.org - 43,000 photos & going up daily
            http://darv.vox.com/
          • Dimitar Bojantchev
            Darvin, Denise Gregory clearly states the following in the Discussion under Clitocybe saeva: I have not studied fresh material of this species, but accept
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 4, 2009
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              Darvin,
               
              Denise Gregory clearly states the following in the Discussion under
              Clitocybe saeva: "I have not studied fresh material of this species,
              but accept Bigelow's description of its macromorphological features".
               
              Denise further states at some point the following: "I would argue that
              C. saeva is a slightly older, faded version of C. nuda; they are alike
              in every aspect...", which clearly demonstrates to me that instead of
              going to Burning Man in the Black Desert of Nevada, next time I should
              take Denise Gregory with me to Europe and collect several tens of
              fruitbodies of the true Clitocybe saeva and then have this discussion
              again. We can pass through Paris on the way...
               

              Anyone can put anything in a Herbarium and name is X. I can go and
              look them up, but there isn't much helpful microscopy to separate
              them. They are best told apart when fresh.
               

              Now, this discussion is not to slight Bigelow at all as he is our best
              Clitocybeologist and one of the top in the World. But at the same time
              I believe that it is a totally mis-guided reverence to enshrine the
              errors of our predecessors and pretend they do not exist.
               
              Therefore my original question stands -- have you in your 30 years of
              collecting in California encountered Lepista saeva in the strict sense
              of the European collections that I illustrated below. That's all I am
              asking.
               
               
                    D.
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 7:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [MushroomTalk] Clitocybe & Lepista


              On Jun 4, 2009, at 8:21 AM, Dimitar Bojantchev wrote:

              > Hi Darvin,
              >
              > I think that these collections are very, very doubtful at best.

              No need to speculate, go check them out. Dennis has them at SFSU.

              >From Denise Gregory's Thesis p. 91:

              Habit, habitat and distribution. Gregarious, scattered, cespitose,
              or solitary, in soil, under mixed woods (pine and coastal live oak),
              or Cupressus macrocarpa; January and February. California, Colorado,
              Michigan, New York, and Oregon.

              Material examined. California. Monterey Co: Monterey City, 21 Jan.
              1988, HDT 51435. San Mateo Co: Wunderlich Park, 18 Jan. 1985, MTS
              368. Santa Barbara Co: Nojouqui County Park, near Buellton, 17 Feb.
              1989, HDT 51926. Material deposited at SFSU.

              > Also, the singular collection from
              > California is by far the most the most unconvincing -- the type
              > material for Melanoleuca rudericola?? ?

              I checked Bigelow's Clitocybe book and I think you misread this. It
              was in the herbarium as a Melanoleuca, but was actually Clitocybe
              saeva. That means Bigelow saw it and changed the name. See the last
              sentence in the seventh paragraph on page 176 for a similar mishap.

              Darv
              SOMA Science Advisor
              SOMAmushrooms. org
              MushroomObserver. org - 43,000 photos & going up daily
              http://darv. vox.com/

            • Darvin DeShazer
              No, I have not seen it, but all of the collections sites for CA have been in the southern half of the state. Darv SOMA Science Advisor SOMAmushrooms.org
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 4, 2009
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                No, I have not seen it, but all of the collections sites for CA have
                been in the southern half of the state.


                Darv
                SOMA Science Advisor
                SOMAmushrooms.org
                MushroomObserver.org - 43,000 photos & going up daily
                http://darv.vox.com/




                On Jun 4, 2009, at 7:34 PM, Dimitar Bojantchev wrote:

                > Therefore my original question stands -- have you in your 30 years of
                > collecting in California encountered Lepista saeva in the strict sense
                > of the European collections that I illustrated below. That's all I am
                > asking.
                >
                > http://mushroomhobby.com/Gallery/Clitocybe/Lepista%20personata/
                > index.htm
                >
              • thewanderer24
                Hi Folks, I am fairly new to the mushroom world - have only started studying in the last few months, though have already ID d many different mushrooms (and
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 18, 2010
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                  Hi Folks,

                  I am fairly new to the mushroom world - have only started studying in the last few months, though have already ID'd many different mushrooms (and eaten a few). I don't pretend to be all that knowledgeable, but really trying to learn more.

                  I live on the south end of the san francisco peninsula and this thread caught my eye for the following reason.

                  I have some mushrooms that have popped up a couple times in the same general spot in my yard (next to ivy and a large pepper tree, at the edge of grass). I looked all over the place trying to ID them, and kept coming back to the fact that they looked and felt A LOT like Clitocybe Nuda, but the cap is brown (even when very young and fresh), and the stem is white, but colors purple instantly when touched. Gills are tan colored. They look a lot like pics from the european collections that have been posted.

                  I have not taken any pictures of them, and unfortunately, the one clump of 3 today that I picked, I cut apart to get a spore print. I might be able to get a pic of the "remains" if that helps.

                  Anyway, a lot of babble, but the point is, the more I am looking, the more they seem like a perfect match of Clitocybe Saepa.

                  Frankly, if I am way off, and some other possible ID jumps to mind to any of you based on the quick description I gave here, please jump in.

                  Sorry for wasting your time. I am really glad I found this group!!

                  Chad
                • fast_jybe
                  Hi Chad, Lepista and Clitocybe are fruiting in great numbers now, so we will need to see some decent photos in order to be able to make a reasonable id. A
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 19, 2010
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                    Hi Chad,

                    Lepista and Clitocybe are fruiting in great numbers now, so we will need to see some decent photos in order to be able to make a reasonable id.

                    A minor point: the nomenclatural binomial is written "Genus epithet", note the epithet being in lower case. I started out writing them like you too, but was quickly corrected.

                    You probably have in mind Clitocybe/Lepista saeva, or Lepista personata (current name). I doubt that particular name fruits in Calfiornia, but hey, it might have been imported, since it is cultivated in some areas. What you have most likely are blewits, or Lepista tarda, which is smaller and more brownish. But send us a photograph -- just drop an attachment.

                    Here is some history on Lepista in the forum -- I am starting more and mroe to search previous threads as the forum is almost 2 years old now and quite a few things have been said over those months.

                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MushroomTalk/msearch?query=lepista&submit=Search&charset=utf-8


                    D.

                    P.S. Lately I am noticing slow downs of 3-4 hours when posting via my regular emailÂ… That's why I go to the Web site now.




                    --- In MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com, "thewanderer24" <thewanderer24@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Folks,
                    >
                    > I am fairly new to the mushroom world - have only started studying in the last few months, though have already ID'd many different mushrooms (and eaten a few). I don't pretend to be all that knowledgeable, but really trying to learn more.
                    >
                    > I live on the south end of the san francisco peninsula and this thread caught my eye for the following reason.
                    >
                    > I have some mushrooms that have popped up a couple times in the same general spot in my yard (next to ivy and a large pepper tree, at the edge of grass). I looked all over the place trying to ID them, and kept coming back to the fact that they looked and felt A LOT like Clitocybe Nuda, but the cap is brown (even when very young and fresh), and the stem is white, but colors purple instantly when touched. Gills are tan colored. They look a lot like pics from the european collections that have been posted.
                    >
                    > I have not taken any pictures of them, and unfortunately, the one clump of 3 today that I picked, I cut apart to get a spore print. I might be able to get a pic of the "remains" if that helps.
                    >
                    > Anyway, a lot of babble, but the point is, the more I am looking, the more they seem like a perfect match of Clitocybe Saepa.
                    >
                    > Frankly, if I am way off, and some other possible ID jumps to mind to any of you based on the quick description I gave here, please jump in.
                    >
                    > Sorry for wasting your time. I am really glad I found this group!!
                    >
                    > Chad
                    >
                  • Tom Cruckshank
                    I just heard last night at the SOMA meeting about someone who mistook a purple cort for a blewit. This was an experienced hunter who had collected them
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 19, 2010
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                      I just heard last night at the SOMA meeting about someone who mistook a purple cort for a blewit.  This was an experienced hunter who had collected them before.  Be cautious about photo ID.  Best to always get the explanation from an experienced hunter before eating.  But first engage your own little gray cells and make a very careful decision.  That being said, blewits are good to eat and I get them often.

                      BTW, Stephanie Jarvis gave a nice talk on puffballs last night at the meeting.  She will one day be a real mycologist, not some backyard pot hunter like myself.

                      Tom

                      On 2/19/2010 8:54 AM, fast_jybe wrote:
                      Hi Chad,
                      
                      Lepista and Clitocybe are fruiting in great numbers now, so we will need to see some decent photos in order to be able to make a reasonable id. 
                      
                      A minor point: the nomenclatural binomial is written "Genus epithet", note the epithet being in lower case. I started out writing them like you too, but was quickly corrected. 
                      
                      You probably have in mind Clitocybe/Lepista saeva, or Lepista personata (current name). I doubt that particular name fruits in Calfiornia, but hey, it might have been imported, since it is cultivated in some areas. What you have most likely are blewits, or Lepista tarda, which is smaller and more brownish. But send us a photograph -- just drop an attachment. 
                      
                      Here is some history on Lepista in the forum -- I am starting more and mroe to search previous threads as the forum is almost 2 years old now and quite a few things have been said over those months. 
                      
                      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MushroomTalk/msearch?query=lepista&submit=Search&charset=utf-8
                      
                      
                         D.
                      
                      P.S. Lately I am noticing slow downs of 3-4 hours when posting via my regular email… That's why I go to the Web site now. 
                      
                      
                      
                      
                      --- In MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com, "thewanderer24" <thewanderer24@...> wrote:
                        
                      Hi Folks,
                      
                      I am fairly new to the mushroom world - have only started studying in the last few months, though have already ID'd many different mushrooms (and eaten a few). I don't pretend to be all that knowledgeable, but really trying to learn more. 
                      
                      I live on the south end of the san francisco peninsula and this thread caught my eye for the following reason. 
                      
                      I have some mushrooms that have popped up a couple times in the same general spot in my yard (next to ivy and a large pepper tree, at the edge of grass). I looked all over the place trying to ID them, and kept coming back to the fact that they looked and felt A LOT like Clitocybe Nuda, but the cap is brown (even when very young and fresh), and the stem is white, but colors purple instantly when touched. Gills are tan colored. They look a lot like pics from the european collections that have been posted. 
                      
                      I have not taken any pictures of them, and unfortunately, the one clump of 3 today that I picked, I cut apart to get a spore print. I might be able to get a pic of the "remains" if that helps.
                      
                      Anyway, a lot of babble, but the point is, the more I am looking, the more they seem like a perfect match of Clitocybe Saepa. 
                      
                      Frankly, if I am way off, and some other possible ID jumps to mind to any of you based on the quick description I gave here, please jump in. 
                      
                      Sorry for wasting your time. I am really glad I found this group!!
                      
                      Chad
                      
                          
                      
                      
                      
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                    • Tom Cruckshank
                      ... A further minor point: binomials are always italicized (but only if both genus and species are included), but if you try to do it on a yahoo list, alas,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 19, 2010
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                        On 2/19/2010 8:54 AM, fast_jybe wrote:
                        A minor point: the nomenclatural binomial is written "Genus epithet", note the epithet being in lower case. I started out writing them like you too, but was quickly corrected.

                        A further minor point: binomials are always italicized (but only if both genus and species are included), but if you try to do it on a yahoo list, alas, they strip away all formatting.  But it is a point to learn when you do something stupid like raising your hand to be an editor of a mushroom rag...
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