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Re: [MT] Almond Scented Russula and genetics

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  • Patrick Hamilton
    Sam, I understand where you re coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms. I do not know
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 1, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Sam,
       "I understand where you're coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms."
       I do not know what you mean by this, maybe Dimitar or Mike do.  A typo somewhere?

       "I wonder: Are there any chefs who make use of Boletes via the rules instead of getting the exact species down (given how many boletes are around in some areas of the country, if a chef made good sauces out of them, I'd think it could be very tempting to just use bags full of them)?" 
        Again I do not understand such as "via the rules."  What rules are these?  Here in Northern CA the boletes sold to and served in restaurants are probably 95% edulis (called "porcini" by most chefs) in the fall and 95% rex veris ("spring kings") in the spring.  Occasionally a B. appendiculatus ("butter boletes") and B. aereus ("queen bolete") are sold too.  They mostly show in the menus as all "porcini."
      Regards,
      Patrick


      From: Sam Schaperow <sam.schaperow@...>
      To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, August 31, 2012 11:28:14 AM
      Subject: Re: [MT] Almond Scented Russula and genetics

       

      I understand where you're coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms. 

      I wonder: Are there any chefs who make use of Boletes via the rules instead of getting the exact species down (given how many boletes are around in some areas of the country, if a chef made good sauces out of them, I'd think it could be very tempting to just use bags full of them)?  How about Russuals in general (such as, for instance, all non-emetic NA Russulas, or maybe all non-very hot Russsulas?)?  With Russulas, aren't there European nations where they'd not blink an eye at what I described w/the almond-scented Russula, yet still boil the bunch of them?  How about puffballs?  Could there be a # of chefs using puffballs w/o determining the species, and could it be that some out there are problematic long-term (seems unlikely, but anything's possible)?

      Some almond qualities remain after cooking, but the more well-cooked the less this seems to be the case.  I'm still working on the situation, though. 

      Oh good; I was just reading in one of my books about a hygro. almond-scented mushroom.  I see there are more.  I wonder if they have some genetic relation to each other, or simply no more than the various plants that produce the scent?  OH wait, I just was thinking plants w/the characteristic aren't related, but aren't they?  Cherry bark can have some of this scent (maybe the seeds, too?).  Plumb seeds are virtually almonds (did you know that?  You can open the pit and find what is by most senses and almond [bitter wild-type w/intense aroma fresh, anyway]).  And black cherry bark has some of this scent.  They are all quite related, being all Prunus. 

      On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dimitar Bojantchev <dimitar@...> wrote:
       

      Sam, I am glad to hear that you are experimenting within reason with the Russulas as the worst potential damage is rather limited to discomfort.
       
      But I would be very uneasy to know that a chef somewhere is experimenting with mushrooms that are not on the mainstream list of well known edibles. This is simply because we do not have enough information on allergic reactions, long-term accumulation of substances, etc. If you bust 2 people out of 20 (10%) that’s enough to be a show-stopper specimen..
       
      Was the almond flavor from the Russula preserved after cooking? If you like intense almond flavors there are several options – one is Clitocybe odora. The others are some some Hygrophorus, not sure what is on the East Coast, but we have H. bakerensis, which is really almondy smelling. Of course, what better than the prince Agaricus and related species.
       
          D.
       
      P.S. Do the California chefs experiment with some of the edibles with known allergic reactions like Leccinum, Laetiporus, etc.?
       
       
      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 6:50 AM
      Subject: [MT] Almond Scented Russula, almonds, and unlocking the secret
       
       

      I believe the almond scent is appealing to many, and quite a few Russula eaters have tried it due to that scent, but like the original wild almonds (they were bitter and mildly/semi-toxic if not cooked), these are bitter, thus require some preparation to be made both not bitter and not toxic, or carefully kept at low quantity when consumed.  As best as I can tell (and I have one more thing to confirm before stating this as a fact), the aromatic compound contained in this Russula is not responsible for the perceptible bitterness, even though it appears to coincidentally need cooking just like the original wild almonds did. 


      But, aren't these Russulas mysterious?  Smells so nice, tastes [ordinary] so not nice, and appears to be a GI irritant if consumed raw or undercooked just like other acrid non-emetic Russulas.  Every year as I walk out the front door, these alluring mushrooms beg my curiosity.  This is the 1st year I've eaten them, but so far enjoying them as a food, but as  a scent, has alluded me.  I asked the chef for the recipe after learning of their very successful use, but he wouldn't give it to me.... And so I am left to my own devices, perhaps with others' aid, to unlock their secret, as the chef had done. 

      --
      Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
      Clinical Director
      PsychologyCT.com




      --
      Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
      Clinical Director
      PsychologyCT.com

    • Sam Schaperow
      Patrick: Good catch! It was like a typo. I had misread Dimitar s recent P.S. on chefs in CA ever serving mushrooms w/known allergic-type reactions as
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 1, 2012
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        Patrick:

        Good catch!  It was like a typo.  I had misread Dimitar's recent P.S. on chefs in CA ever serving mushrooms w/known allergic-type reactions as something else more resembling what I wrote, which w/o direct context made only some sense.  Yet, you managed to answer the question I was trying to ask, nevertheless.  So, I see they seek the commonly known choice edibles.  Do any ever seek to serve Boletes not from specific choice species, but various not clearly identified species (not that the choice ones are identified to species, some being in clusters)?  What I meant by rules is what has been discussed on MT in the past, like "thoroughly cooked non-reticulated & non-bluing non-red/yellow pored Boletes found in areas lacking any other exceptions to the edibility rule".  I take it from your reply that chefs in CA neither want Boletes, puffballs, or Russulas following even conservative edibility rules like this one. 

        Sam

        On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Patrick Hamilton <mycochef@...> wrote:
         

        Sam,

         "I understand where you're coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms."
         I do not know what you mean by this, maybe Dimitar or Mike do.  A typo somewhere?

         "I wonder: Are there any chefs who make use of Boletes via the rules instead of getting the exact species down (given how many boletes are around in some areas of the country, if a chef made good sauces out of them, I'd think it could be very tempting to just use bags full of them)?" 
          Again I do not understand such as "via the rules."  What rules are these?  Here in Northern CA the boletes sold to and served in restaurants are probably 95% edulis (called "porcini" by most chefs) in the fall and 95% rex veris ("spring kings") in the spring.  Occasionally a B. appendiculatus ("butter boletes") and B. aereus ("queen bolete") are sold too.  They mostly show in the menus as all "porcini."
        Regards,
        Patrick


        From: Sam Schaperow <sam.schaperow@...>
        To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, August 31, 2012 11:28:14 AM

        Subject: Re: [MT] Almond Scented Russula and genetics

         

        I understand where you're coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms. 


        I wonder: Are there any chefs who make use of Boletes via the rules instead of getting the exact species down (given how many boletes are around in some areas of the country, if a chef made good sauces out of them, I'd think it could be very tempting to just use bags full of them)?  How about Russuals in general (such as, for instance, all non-emetic NA Russulas, or maybe all non-very hot Russsulas?)?  With Russulas, aren't there European nations where they'd not blink an eye at what I described w/the almond-scented Russula, yet still boil the bunch of them?  How about puffballs?  Could there be a # of chefs using puffballs w/o determining the species, and could it be that some out there are problematic long-term (seems unlikely, but anything's possible)?

        Some almond qualities remain after cooking, but the more well-cooked the less this seems to be the case.  I'm still working on the situation, though. 

        Oh good; I was just reading in one of my books about a hygro. almond-scented mushroom.  I see there are more.  I wonder if they have some genetic relation to each other, or simply no more than the various plants that produce the scent?  OH wait, I just was thinking plants w/the characteristic aren't related, but aren't they?  Cherry bark can have some of this scent (maybe the seeds, too?).  Plumb seeds are virtually almonds (did you know that?  You can open the pit and find what is by most senses and almond [bitter wild-type w/intense aroma fresh, anyway]).  And black cherry bark has some of this scent.  They are all quite related, being all Prunus. 

        On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dimitar Bojantchev <dimitar@...> wrote:
         

        Sam, I am glad to hear that you are experimenting within reason with the Russulas as the worst potential damage is rather limited to discomfort.
         
        But I would be very uneasy to know that a chef somewhere is experimenting with mushrooms that are not on the mainstream list of well known edibles. This is simply because we do not have enough information on allergic reactions, long-term accumulation of substances, etc. If you bust 2 people out of 20 (10%) that’s enough to be a show-stopper specimen..
         
        Was the almond flavor from the Russula preserved after cooking? If you like intense almond flavors there are several options – one is Clitocybe odora. The others are some some Hygrophorus, not sure what is on the East Coast, but we have H. bakerensis, which is really almondy smelling. Of course, what better than the prince Agaricus and related species.
         
            D.
         
        P.S. Do the California chefs experiment with some of the edibles with known allergic reactions like Leccinum, Laetiporus, etc.?
         
         
        Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 6:50 AM
        Subject: [MT] Almond Scented Russula, almonds, and unlocking the secret
         
         

        I believe the almond scent is appealing to many, and quite a few Russula eaters have tried it due to that scent, but like the original wild almonds (they were bitter and mildly/semi-toxic if not cooked), these are bitter, thus require some preparation to be made both not bitter and not toxic, or carefully kept at low quantity when consumed.  As best as I can tell (and I have one more thing to confirm before stating this as a fact), the aromatic compound contained in this Russula is not responsible for the perceptible bitterness, even though it appears to coincidentally need cooking just like the original wild almonds did. 


        But, aren't these Russulas mysterious?  Smells so nice, tastes [ordinary] so not nice, and appears to be a GI irritant if consumed raw or undercooked just like other acrid non-emetic Russulas.  Every year as I walk out the front door, these alluring mushrooms beg my curiosity.  This is the 1st year I've eaten them, but so far enjoying them as a food, but as  a scent, has alluded me.  I asked the chef for the recipe after learning of their very successful use, but he wouldn't give it to me.... And so I am left to my own devices, perhaps with others' aid, to unlock their secret, as the chef had done. 

        --
        Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
        Clinical Director
        PsychologyCT.com




        --
        Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
        Clinical Director
        PsychologyCT.com




        --
        Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
        Clinical Director
        PsychologyCT.com

      • Patrick Hamilton
        Huh? I managed to answer the question? Amazing, Sam. You have a writing style that requires much deciphering for this CA country boy and sometimes I feel my
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 1, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
           Huh?  I managed to answer the question?  Amazing, Sam. You have a writing style that requires much deciphering for this CA country boy and sometimes I feel my ciphers should end up in the Cosmic Trash Can or in that ever-growing column I keep on a big note pad that is entitled "More That I Don't Know."
            When you go and post stuff like the following,  "I take it from your reply that chefs in CA neither want Boletes, puffballs, or Russulas following even conservative edibility rules like this one," my face begins to contort into an awful looking thing unfit for public viewing.  Soon this expression must change--I am cooking for a gathering in an hour.  I will think on what you are saying while serving and hopefully a rapturous look will come upon me to replace any remnants of painfulness.
          Best Regards,
          Patrick
          Confused in Sonoma County
           



          From: Sam Schaperow <sam.schaperow@...>
          To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, September 1, 2012 10:19:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [MT] Almond Scented Russula and genetics

           

          Patrick:

          Good catch!  It was like a typo.  I had misread Dimitar's recent P.S. on chefs in CA ever serving mushrooms w/known allergic-type reactions as something else more resembling what I wrote, which w/o direct context made only some sense.  Yet, you managed to answer the question I was trying to ask, nevertheless.  So, I see they seek the commonly known choice edibles.  Do any ever seek to serve Boletes not from specific choice species, but various not clearly identified species (not that the choice ones are identified to species, some being in clusters)?  What I meant by rules is what has been discussed on MT in the past, like "thoroughly cooked non-reticulated & non-bluing non-red/yellow pored Boletes found in areas lacking any other exceptions to the edibility rule".  I take it from your reply that chefs in CA neither want Boletes, puffballs, or Russulas following even conservative edibility rules like this one. 

          Sam

          On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Patrick Hamilton <mycochef@...> wrote:
           

          Sam,

           "I understand where you're coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms."
           I do not know what you mean by this, maybe Dimitar or Mike do.  A typo somewhere?

           "I wonder: Are there any chefs who make use of Boletes via the rules instead of getting the exact species down (given how many boletes are around in some areas of the country, if a chef made good sauces out of them, I'd think it could be very tempting to just use bags full of them)?" 
            Again I do not understand such as "via the rules."  What rules are these?  Here in Northern CA the boletes sold to and served in restaurants are probably 95% edulis (called "porcini" by most chefs) in the fall and 95% rex veris ("spring kings") in the spring.  Occasionally a B. appendiculatus ("butter boletes") and B. aereus ("queen bolete") are sold too.  They mostly show in the menus as all "porcini."
          Regards,
          Patrick


          From: Sam Schaperow <sam.schaperow@...>
          To: MushroomTalk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, August 31, 2012 11:28:14 AM

          Subject: Re: [MT] Almond Scented Russula and genetics

           

          I understand where you're coming from, and am also curious as to how non-mainstream chefs do get in CA & other states w/wild mushrooms. 


          I wonder: Are there any chefs who make use of Boletes via the rules instead of getting the exact species down (given how many boletes are around in some areas of the country, if a chef made good sauces out of them, I'd think it could be very tempting to just use bags full of them)?  How about Russuals in general (such as, for instance, all non-emetic NA Russulas, or maybe all non-very hot Russsulas?)?  With Russulas, aren't there European nations where they'd not blink an eye at what I described w/the almond-scented Russula, yet still boil the bunch of them?  How about puffballs?  Could there be a # of chefs using puffballs w/o determining the species, and could it be that some out there are problematic long-term (seems unlikely, but anything's possible)?

          Some almond qualities remain after cooking, but the more well-cooked the less this seems to be the case.  I'm still working on the situation, though. 

          Oh good; I was just reading in one of my books about a hygro. almond-scented mushroom.  I see there are more.  I wonder if they have some genetic relation to each other, or simply no more than the various plants that produce the scent?  OH wait, I just was thinking plants w/the characteristic aren't related, but aren't they?  Cherry bark can have some of this scent (maybe the seeds, too?).  Plumb seeds are virtually almonds (did you know that?  You can open the pit and find what is by most senses and almond [bitter wild-type w/intense aroma fresh, anyway]).  And black cherry bark has some of this scent.  They are all quite related, being all Prunus. 

          On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Dimitar Bojantchev <dimitar@...> wrote:
           

          Sam, I am glad to hear that you are experimenting within reason with the Russulas as the worst potential damage is rather limited to discomfort.
           
          But I would be very uneasy to know that a chef somewhere is experimenting with mushrooms that are not on the mainstream list of well known edibles. This is simply because we do not have enough information on allergic reactions, long-term accumulation of substances, etc. If you bust 2 people out of 20 (10%) that’s enough to be a show-stopper specimen..
           
          Was the almond flavor from the Russula preserved after cooking? If you like intense almond flavors there are several options – one is Clitocybe odora. The others are some some Hygrophorus, not sure what is on the East Coast, but we have H. bakerensis, which is really almondy smelling. Of course, what better than the prince Agaricus and related species.
           
              D.
           
          P.S. Do the California chefs experiment with some of the edibles with known allergic reactions like Leccinum, Laetiporus, etc.?
           
           
          Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 6:50 AM
          Subject: [MT] Almond Scented Russula, almonds, and unlocking the secret
           
           

          I believe the almond scent is appealing to many, and quite a few Russula eaters have tried it due to that scent, but like the original wild almonds (they were bitter and mildly/semi-toxic if not cooked), these are bitter, thus require some preparation to be made both not bitter and not toxic, or carefully kept at low quantity when consumed.  As best as I can tell (and I have one more thing to confirm before stating this as a fact), the aromatic compound contained in this Russula is not responsible for the perceptible bitterness, even though it appears to coincidentally need cooking just like the original wild almonds did. 


          But, aren't these Russulas mysterious?  Smells so nice, tastes [ordinary] so not nice, and appears to be a GI irritant if consumed raw or undercooked just like other acrid non-emetic Russulas.  Every year as I walk out the front door, these alluring mushrooms beg my curiosity.  This is the 1st year I've eaten them, but so far enjoying them as a food, but as  a scent, has alluded me.  I asked the chef for the recipe after learning of their very successful use, but he wouldn't give it to me.... And so I am left to my own devices, perhaps with others' aid, to unlock their secret, as the chef had done. 

          --
          Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
          Clinical Director
          PsychologyCT.com




          --
          Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
          Clinical Director
          PsychologyCT.com




          --
          Sam Schaperow, MSMFT, LMFT
          Clinical Director
          PsychologyCT.com

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