Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

For Sago's sake, let's get this right

Expand Messages
  • USMRA
    For Sago s sake, let s get this right Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV,USA Opinion November 1, 2007 After terrible events such as the 2006 deaths of 12
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2007
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      For Sago's sake, let's get this right
      Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV,USA
      Opinion
      November 1, 2007


      After terrible events such as the 2006 deaths of 12 men at the Sago mine in Upshur County, politicians naturally want to prevent such things from happening again.

      The understandable impulse to act quickly may look good, but it can produce as much exasperation as progress. That may be the case with the MINER Act that Congress passed following the Sago explosion.

      Congress passed the act. The Mine Safety and Health Administration took what Congress mandated and translated it into proposed rules, then took to the road to get public comment on its proposals.

      At the Charleston hearing this week, rescue crews said the proposed rules go too far. Industry spokesmen said they could result in fewer rescue teams, not more. The UMW said the rules don't go far enough.

      As Ken Ward of the Gazette reported, current law requires that rescuers be able to reach underground mines within two hours. The proposed rules require response within one hour.

      James Murray of Mingo Logan Coal Co.'s Mountaineer Team said response time hasn't been the issue and the one-hour requirement shouldn't be applied. Teams have been able to respond when notified, he said. "The issue is notification."

      Ken Perdue of Alpha Natural Resources said MSHA should exempt existing teams from the one-hour travel time requirement. Otherwise, many will have to move or open new stations, disrupting coverage that has been in place for years.

      Both men said rescue crews should not be required to train at each mine they cover. Perdue said that rule could result in fewer rather than more rescue teams because it would break up existing teams and add so much training time that members might quit.

      Doug Pauley of the Pocahontas Mine Rescue Association in McDowell County said the agency should change its definition of what constitutes a small mine.

      These are all useful comments from people who know a great deal about the subject. MSHA officials were sympathetic, but the problematic requirements are not a matter of regulations MSHA can change, but of law, which Congress would have to change.

      Members of Congress, in being so specific about issues they don't understand, could perversely have imperiled emergency responses rather then strengthened them.

      That would be a terrible thing to do to miners in the wake of Sago.

      _______________________________
      U. S. Mine Rescue Association
      www.usmra.com
    • Rob McGee
      Ken Purdue of Alpha Natural Resources brings forth an interesting point where he states that the additional training time might result in team members
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2007
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment

        Ken Purdue of Alpha Natural Resources brings forth an interesting point where he states that the additional training time might result in team members quitting.

        We must also consider the scenario of non-compliance which can result in nullifying an individuals "team member" status.  These are the requirements that team members must meet:

        •Train 64 hours per year
        •Train under O2 one hour monthly or 2 hours bimonthly
        •Train twice a year at each mine served
        •Train underground every 6 months

        By strict interpretation, failing to meet any one of these items removes an individuals "member" status and would require the offender to re-complete the 20 hour initial training to continue.

        I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that has also considered this and perhaps share your ideas which may assist others in avoiding this.

        Rob


        --- In MineRescue@yahoogroups.com, "USMRA" <usmra@...> wrote:
        >
        > For Sago's sake, let's get this right
        > Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV,USA
        > Opinion
        > November 1, 2007
        >
        >
        >
        > After terrible events such as the 2006 deaths of 12 men at the Sago mine in Upshur County, politicians naturally want to prevent such things from happening again.
        > The understandable impulse to act quickly may look good, but it can produce as much exasperation as progress. That may be the case with the MINER Act that Congress passed following the Sago explosion.
        >
        > Congress passed the act. The Mine Safety and Health Administration took what Congress mandated and translated it into proposed rules, then took to the road to get public comment on its proposals.
        >
        > At the Charleston hearing this week, rescue crews said the proposed rules go too far. Industry spokesmen said they could result in fewer rescue teams, not more. The UMW said the rules don't go far enough.
        >
        > As Ken Ward of the Gazette reported, current law requires that rescuers be able to reach underground mines within two hours. The proposed rules require response within one hour.
        >
        > James Murray of Mingo Logan Coal Co.'s Mountaineer Team said response time hasn't been the issue and the one-hour requirement shouldn't be applied. Teams have been able to respond when notified, he said. "The issue is notification."
        >
        > Ken Perdue of Alpha Natural Resources said MSHA should exempt existing teams from the one-hour travel time requirement. Otherwise, many will have to move or open new stations, disrupting coverage that has been in place for years.
        >
        > Both men said rescue crews should not be required to train at each mine they cover. Perdue said that rule could result in fewer rather than more rescue teams because it would break up existing teams and add so much training time that members might quit.
        >
        > Doug Pauley of the Pocahontas Mine Rescue Association in McDowell County said the agency should change its definition of what constitutes a small mine.
        >
        > These are all useful comments from people who know a great deal about the subject. MSHA officials were sympathetic, but the problematic requirements are not a matter of regulations MSHA can change, but of law, which Congress would have to change.
        >
        > Members of Congress, in being so specific about issues they don't understand, could perversely have imperiled emergency responses rather then strengthened them.
        >
        > That would be a terrible thing to do to miners in the wake of Sago.
        >
        > _______________________________
        > U. S. Mine Rescue Association
        > www.usmra.com
        >

      • cmrescue
        Rob, It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews are the ones at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder what the out
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2007
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment

          Rob,

          It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews are the ones at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder what the out come would have been in the Sago Mine or the Crandall Canyon events would have been?

           

          We too have people saying that they will quit if they have to give up any more of their spare time to do more training. I can see this resulting in fewer mine rescue volunteers willing to do what they are already doing.

           

          I think that more empheses needs to be on educating the miners on what to do in the event of an emergency.

           

          It is my opinion that it is what you do in the first fifteen to thirty minutes of the event that is going to seal your fate and it is not if the teams are training another 24 hours.

           

          Danny

           


          From: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MineRescue@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob McGee
          Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:17 AM
          To: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [USMRA] Re: For Sago's sake, let's get this right

           

          Ken Purdue of Alpha Natural Resources brings forth an interesting point where he states that the additional training time might result in team members quitting.

          We must also consider the scenario of non-compliance which can result in nullifying an individuals "team member" status.  These are the requirements that team members must meet:

          Train 64 hours per year

          Train under O2 one hour monthly or 2 hours bimonthly

          Train twice a year at each mine served

          Train underground every 6 months

          By strict interpretation, failing to meet any one of these items removes an individuals "member" status and would require the offender to re-complete the 20 hour initial training to continue.

          I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that has also considered this and perhaps share your ideas which may assist others in avoiding this.

          Rob


          --- In MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com, "USMRA" <usmra@...> wrote:

          >
          > For Sago's sake, let's get this right
          > Daily Mail - Charleston -
          w:st="on">Charleston , WV , USA
          > Opinion
          > November 1, 2007
          >
          >
          >
          > After terrible events such as the 2006 deaths of 12 men at the Sago mine
          in Upshur County, politicians naturally want to prevent such things from happening again.
          > The understandable impulse to act quickly may look good, but it can
          produce as much exasperation as progress. That may be the case with the MINER Act that Congress passed following the Sago explosion.
          >
          > Congress passed the act. The Mine Safety and Health Administration took
          what Congress mandated and translated it into proposed rules, then took to the road to get public comment on its proposals.
          >
          > At the Charleston
          hearing this week, rescue crews said the proposed rules go too far. Industry spokesmen said they could result in fewer rescue teams, not more. The UMW said the rules don't go far enough.
          >
          > As Ken Ward of the Gazette reported, current law requires that rescuers be
          able to reach underground mines within two hours. The proposed rules require response within one hour.
          >
          > James Murray of Mingo Logan Coal Co.'s Mountaineer Team said response time
          hasn't been the issue and the one-hour requirement shouldn't be applied. Teams have been able to respond when notified, he said. "The issue is notification. "
          >
          > Ken Perdue of Alpha Natural Resources said MSHA should exempt existing
          teams from the one-hour travel time requirement. Otherwise, many will have to move or open new stations, disrupting coverage that has been in place for years.
          >
          > Both men said rescue crews should not be required to train at each mine
          they cover. Perdue said that rule could result in fewer rather than more rescue teams because it would break up existing teams and add so much training time that members might quit.
          >
          > Doug Pauley of the Pocahontas Mine Rescue Association in McDowell County
          said the agency should change its definition of what constitutes a small mine.
          >
          > These are all useful comments from people who know a great deal about the
          subject. MSHA officials were sympathetic, but the problematic requirements are not a matter of regulations MSHA can change, but of law, which Congress would have to change.
          >
          > Members of Congress, in being so specific about issues they don't
          understand, could perversely have imperiled emergency responses rather then strengthened them.
          >
          > That would be a terrible thing to do to miners in the wake of Sago.
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _
          > U. S.
          Mine Rescue Association
          > www.usmra.com
          >

        • wally_nc_miner
          ... are the ones ... what the out ... events would ... up any ... resulting in ... doing. ... what to do ... thirty ... if the ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1, 2007
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In MineRescue@yahoogroups.com, "cmrescue" <cmrescue@...> wrote:
            >
            > Rob,
            >
            > It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews
            are the ones
            > at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder
            what the out
            > come would have been in the Sago Mine or the Crandall Canyon
            events would
            > have been?
            >
            >
            >
            > We too have people saying that they will quit if they have to give
            up any
            > more of their spare time to do more training. I can see this
            resulting in
            > fewer mine rescue volunteers willing to do what they are already
            doing.
            >
            >
            >
            > I think that more empheses needs to be on educating the miners on
            what to do
            > in the event of an emergency.
            >
            >
            >
            > It is my opinion that it is what you do in the first fifteen to
            thirty
            > minutes of the event that is going to seal your fate and it is not
            if the
            > teams are training another 24 hours.
            >
            >
            >
            > Danny
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:MineRescue@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of Rob McGee
            > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:17 AM
            > To: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [USMRA] Re: For Sago's sake, let's get this right
            >
            >
            >
            > Ken Purdue of Alpha Natural Resources brings forth an interesting
            point
            > where he states that the additional training time might result in
            team
            > members quitting.
            >
            > We must also consider the scenario of non-compliance which can
            result in
            > nullifying an individuals "team member" status. These are the
            requirements
            > that team members must meet:
            >
            >
            > .
            >
            > Train 64 hours per year
            >
            >
            > .
            >
            > Train under O2 one hour monthly or 2 hours bimonthly
            >
            >
            > .
            >
            > Train twice a year at each mine served
            >
            >
            > .
            >
            > Train underground every 6 months
            >
            > By strict interpretation, failing to meet any one of these items
            removes an
            > individuals "member" status and would require the offender to re-
            complete
            > the 20 hour initial training to continue.
            >
            > I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that has also considered
            this and
            > perhaps share your ideas which may assist others in avoiding this.
            >
            > Rob
            >
            >
            > --- In MineRescue@yahoogroups.com, "USMRA" <usmra@> wrote:
            > >
            > > For Sago's sake, let's get this right
            > > Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV,USA
            > > Opinion
            > > November 1, 2007
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > After terrible events such as the 2006 deaths of 12 men at the
            Sago mine
            > in Upshur County, politicians naturally want to prevent such
            things from
            > happening again.
            > > The understandable impulse to act quickly may look good, but it
            can
            > produce as much exasperation as progress. That may be the case
            with the
            > MINER Act that Congress passed following the Sago explosion.
            > >
            > > Congress passed the act. The Mine Safety and Health
            Administration took
            > what Congress mandated and translated it into proposed rules, then
            took to
            > the road to get public comment on its proposals.
            > >
            > > At the Charleston hearing this week, rescue crews said the
            proposed rules
            > go too far. Industry spokesmen said they could result in fewer
            rescue teams,
            > not more. The UMW said the rules don't go far enough.
            > >
            > > As Ken Ward of the Gazette reported, current law requires that
            rescuers be
            > able to reach underground mines within two hours. The proposed
            rules require
            > response within one hour.
            > >
            > > James Murray of Mingo Logan Coal Co.'s Mountaineer Team said
            response time
            > hasn't been the issue and the one-hour requirement shouldn't be
            applied.
            > Teams have been able to respond when notified, he said. "The issue
            is
            > notification."
            > >
            > > Ken Perdue of Alpha Natural Resources said MSHA should exempt
            existing
            > teams from the one-hour travel time requirement. Otherwise, many
            will have
            > to move or open new stations, disrupting coverage that has been in
            place for
            > years.
            > >
            > > Both men said rescue crews should not be required to train at
            each mine
            > they cover. Perdue said that rule could result in fewer rather
            than more
            > rescue teams because it would break up existing teams and add so
            much
            > training time that members might quit.
            > >
            > > Doug Pauley of the Pocahontas Mine Rescue Association in
            McDowell County
            > said the agency should change its definition of what constitutes a
            small
            > mine.
            > >
            > > These are all useful comments from people who know a great deal
            about the
            > subject. MSHA officials were sympathetic, but the problematic
            requirements
            > are not a matter of regulations MSHA can change, but of law, which
            Congress
            > would have to change.
            > >
            > > Members of Congress, in being so specific about issues they don't
            > understand, could perversely have imperiled emergency responses
            rather then
            > strengthened them.
            > >
            > > That would be a terrible thing to do to miners in the wake of
            Sago.
            > >
            > > _______________________________
            > > U. S. Mine Rescue Association
            > > www.usmra.com
            > >
            >I believe this chat room contains many people, much more versed in
            Coal Mining than I am, but I have some information, that may get
            some of you to follow up on it.
            I am a Pendulum Dowser, have been involved in the Crandall
            Canyon Coal Mine accident, since day three. I have been dowsing a
            Floor Plan of the mine and have determined many facts, that I have
            been trying to get to the right people, because they could get all
            six of the miners out, by using this. I have this reinactment story
            drawn out on my Floor Plan, but I will tell it to you verbally and
            will send you the Floor Plan later, when I find out how. At the time
            of the accident all six miners had just removed some support and
            were all in an open cross cut, waiting for the roof to fall. They
            anticipated a loud noise and a rush of air into the tunnel they were
            hiding in. The roof came down with more force than they anticipated,
            was not visable to them, but the rush of air pushed through their
            tunnel, pushing all six of them through the shotgun barrel type
            tunnel so fast, they did nothing but fly through the tunnel
            uncontrollably and ended up in an area that had been caved
            previously, the three Mexicans were dead, but the other three miners
            picked them up and rushed on an angle toward the entrance, climbing
            over rubble piled almost to the ceiling. I do not have a scale on my
            floor plan, so I cannot give you distances, but will give you the
            measurements off of the floor plan. They had traveled 1/4 inch to an
            open cut, turned left going to the other side of the mine, because
            it had more openings and possibly it had not been caved yet. They
            traveled about 1 1/2 inches at a run, getting to the outside wall of
            the mine, farthest from the entrance, they then turned right still
            running, traveling about 1 1/4 inch to the front of the mine
            workings. They were at a point farthest from the area they had been
            working in and they rested there for a long time. After they were
            well rested, they turned right traveling 1 inch toward the central
            entanceway that resuers were trying to clear out, the entrance
            collpse must have occured allready or possibly occured during their
            travels and they ended up spending a good amount of time at that
            point and finally left the three Mexican bodies there. It is
            possible the bodies might have gotten buried in that collapse. They
            turned to the left traveling 1 1/4 inch to a point at the very front
            of the mine. The 3/4 inch path to the entrance on their right was
            blocked and somehow they ended up in a room in a smaller section of
            another mine, that contains equipment they are using. I think there
            is something in there that they are using to aid their breathing.
            They are well fed, can breathe easily and are trying to dig
            themselves out. The miners are barely able to dig, because of some
            injuries, but I do not know what they are. I do not know what edible
            things could be found in a coal mine, but they are not eating
            snakes, birds or rats at this time. I gave this information to the
            trapped miner Kerry Alreds' brother Steve, Bob Murray, people in the
            Utau Governors office and the Governor, but I do not know if anyone
            followed up on this. I told them to drop a speaker down into a drill
            hole and play Led Zephiland Rock Music through it, loud enough to be
            heard throuout the entire mine and the miners would come to the
            speaker, but they did not do that either. It appears that the
            rescuers are geared to do everything in a standard way and do not
            use any common sense. The old saying is they cannot see the forest
            for the trees. Some may think this is an insult to the rescuers, but
            the more intelligent ones, will look at this and see many
            possibilities. Wally Lidberg lidberg@...
          • Rob McGee
            Danny, I fully agree. I m further of the opinion that the rescue team portion of the Act was written without regard and to the detriment (maybe extinction) of
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 1, 2007
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment

              Danny,

              I fully agree.  I'm further of the opinion that the rescue team portion of the Act was written without regard and to the detriment (maybe extinction) of both small operators and groups that provide services to multiple operators.

              Having worked for the PA Bureau of Mine Safety, I can safely say these new requirements will create a scheduling and recordkeeping nightmare - at least for them. that is.

              Oh, I almost forgot another item that individuals must comply with - participation in two local mine rescue contests each year.  Miss one and you're off the team.

              Thanks for your comments.

              Rob


              --- In MineRescue@yahoogroups.com, "cmrescue" <cmrescue@...> wrote:
              >
              > Rob,
              >
              > It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews are the ones
              > at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder what the out
              > come would have been in the Sago Mine or the Crandall Canyon events would
              > have been?
              >
              >
              >
              > We too have people saying that they will quit if they have to give up any
              > more of their spare time to do more training. I can see this resulting in
              > fewer mine rescue volunteers willing to do what they are already doing.
              >
              >
              >
              > I think that more empheses needs to be on educating the miners on what to do
              > in the event of an emergency.
              >
              >
              >
              > It is my opinion that it is what you do in the first fifteen to thirty
              > minutes of the event that is going to seal your fate and it is not if the
              > teams are training another 24 hours.
              >
              >
              >
              > Danny

            • Rescue1UK@aol.com
              Danny, don t let the guys despair, it will work out in the long run. It may need MSHA looking further afield to different countries for ideas, such as us here
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2007
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Danny,
                 
                don't let the guys despair, it will work out in the long run. It may need MSHA looking further afield to different countries for ideas, such as us here in the UK do things differently, but a mine cannot work here unless it can guarantee 2 fully equipped teams at any mine within 60 minutes, and it works.
                OK, we have way fewer coal mines now, but that could be seen as a dissadvantage, with fewer rescue workers to choose from.
                There is enough money being made from coal in the US for the operators to consider a professional full time / and part time mine rescue scheme.
                 
                regards
                 
                Brian Robinson
                mine rescue consultant
                United Kingdom
              • Steve Hoskinson
                Here is a differant approach, make them train on company time! Most of our training here in Kansas is done during regular shift hours. If it was done during
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2007
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                       Here is a differant approach, make them train on company time! Most of our training here in Kansas is done during regular shift hours. If it was done during their off time there woudn't be any teams here because during the busy season most are working 6-7 days already!


                  To: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com
                  From: lidberg@...
                  Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 22:06:25 +0000
                  Subject: [USMRA] Re: For Sago's sake, let's get this right

                  --- In MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com, "cmrescue" <cmrescue@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Rob,
                  >
                  > It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews
                  are the ones
                  > at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder
                  what the out
                  > come would have been in the Sago Mine or the Crandall Canyon
                  events would
                  > have been?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > We too have people saying that they will quit if they have to give
                  up any
                  > more of their spare time to do more training. I can see this
                  resulting in
                  > fewer mine rescue volunteers willing to do what they are already
                  doing.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I think that more empheses needs to be on educating the miners on
                  what to do
                  > in the event of an emergency.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It is my opinion that it is what you do in the first fifteen to
                  thirty
                  > minutes of the event that is going to seal your fate and it is not
                  if the
                  > teams are training another 24 hours.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Danny
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com
                  [mailto:MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of Rob McGee
                  > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:17 AM
                  > To: MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com
                  > Subject: [USMRA] Re: For Sago's sake, let's get this right
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Ken Purdue of Alpha Natural Resources brings forth an interesting
                  point
                  > where he states that the additional training time might result in
                  team
                  > members quitting.
                  >
                  > We must also consider the scenario of non-compliance which can
                  result in
                  > nullifying an individuals "team member" status. These are the
                  requirements
                  > that team members must meet:
                  >
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  > Train 64 hours per year
                  >
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  > Train under O2 one hour monthly or 2 hours bimonthly
                  >
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  > Train twice a year at each mine served
                  >
                  >
                  > .
                  >
                  > Train underground every 6 months
                  >
                  > By strict interpretation, failing to meet any one of these items
                  removes an
                  > individuals "member" status and would require the offender to re-
                  complete
                  > the 20 hour initial training to continue.
                  >
                  > I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that has also considered
                  this and
                  > perhaps share your ideas which may assist others in avoiding this.
                  >
                  > Rob
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com, "USMRA" <usmra@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > For Sago's sake, let's get this right
                  > > Daily Mail - Charleston - Charleston,WV, USA
                  > > Opinion
                  > > November 1, 2007
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > After terrible events such as the 2006 deaths of 12 men at the
                  Sago mine
                  > in Upshur County, politicians naturally want to prevent such
                  things from
                  > happening again.
                  > > The understandable impulse to act quickly may look good, but it
                  can
                  > produce as much exasperation as progress. That may be the case
                  with the
                  > MINER Act that Congress passed following the Sago explosion.
                  > >
                  > > Congress passed the act. The Mine Safety and Health
                  Administration took
                  > what Congress mandated and translated it into proposed rules, then
                  took to
                  > the road to get public comment on its proposals.
                  > >
                  > > At the Charleston hearing this week, rescue crews said the
                  proposed rules
                  > go too far. Industry spokesmen said they could result in fewer
                  rescue teams,
                  > not more. The UMW said the rules don't go far enough.
                  > >
                  > > As Ken Ward of the Gazette reported, current law requires that
                  rescuers be
                  > able to reach underground mines within two hours. The proposed
                  rules require
                  > response within one hour.
                  > >
                  > > James Murray of Mingo Logan Coal Co.'s Mountaineer Team said
                  response time
                  > hasn't been the issue and the one-hour requirement shouldn't be
                  applied.
                  > Teams have been able to respond when notified, he said. "The issue
                  is
                  > notification. "
                  > >
                  > > Ken Perdue of Alpha Natural Resources said MSHA should exempt
                  existing
                  > teams from the one-hour travel time requirement. Otherwise, many
                  will have
                  > to move or open new stations, disrupting coverage that has been in
                  place for
                  > years.
                  > >
                  > > Both men said rescue crews should not be required to train at
                  each mine
                  > they cover. Perdue said that rule could result in fewer rather
                  than more
                  > rescue teams because it would break up existing teams and add so
                  much
                  > training time that members might quit.
                  > >
                  > > Doug Pauley of the Pocahontas Mine Rescue Association in
                  McDowell County
                  > said the agency should change its definition of what constitutes a
                  small
                  > mine.
                  > >
                  > > These are all useful comments from people who know a great deal
                  about the
                  > subject. MSHA officials were sympathetic, but the problematic
                  requirements
                  > are not a matter of regulations MSHA can change, but of law, which
                  Congress
                  > would have to change.
                  > >
                  > > Members of Congress, in being so specific about issues they don't
                  > understand, could perversely have imperiled emergency responses
                  rather then
                  > strengthened them.
                  > >
                  > > That would be a terrible thing to do to miners in the wake of
                  Sago.
                  > >
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ _
                  > > U. S. Mine Rescue Association
                  > > www.usmra.com
                  > >
                  >I believe this chat room contains many people, much more versed in
                  Coal Mining than I am, but I have some information, that may get
                  some of you to follow up on it.
                  I am a Pendulum Dowser, have been involved in the Crandall
                  Canyon Coal Mine accident, since day three. I have been dowsing a
                  Floor Plan of the mine and have determined many facts, that I have
                  been trying to get to the right people, because they could get all
                  six of the miners out, by using this. I have this reinactment story
                  drawn out on my Floor Plan, but I will tell it to you verbally and
                  will send you the Floor Plan later, when I find out how. At the time
                  of the accident all six miners had just removed some support and
                  were all in an open cross cut, waiting for the roof to fall. They
                  anticipated a loud noise and a rush of air into the tunnel they were
                  hiding in. The roof came down with more force than they anticipated,
                  was not visable to them, but the rush of air pushed through their
                  tunnel, pushing all six of them through the shotgun barrel type
                  tunnel so fast, they did nothing but fly through the tunnel
                  uncontrollably and ended up in an area that had been caved
                  previously, the three Mexicans were dead, but the other three miners
                  picked them up and rushed on an angle toward the entrance, climbing
                  over rubble piled almost to the ceiling. I do not have a scale on my
                  floor plan, so I cannot give you distances, but will give you the
                  measurements off of the floor plan. They had traveled 1/4 inch to an
                  open cut, turned left going to the other side of the mine, because
                  it had more openings and possibly it had not been caved yet. They
                  traveled about 1 1/2 inches at a run, getting to the outside wall of
                  the mine, farthest from the entrance, they then turned right still
                  running, traveling about 1 1/4 inch to the front of the mine
                  workings. They were at a point farthest from the area they had been
                  working in and they rested there for a long time. After they were
                  well rested, they turned right traveling 1 inch toward the central
                  entanceway that resuers were trying to clear out, the entrance
                  collpse must have occured allready or possibly occured during their
                  travels and they ended up spending a good amount of time at that
                  point and finally left the three Mexican bodies there. It is
                  possible the bodies might have gotten buried in that collapse. They
                  turned to the left traveling 1 1/4 inch to a point at the very front
                  of the mine. The 3/4 inch path to the entrance on their right was
                  blocked and somehow they ended up in a room in a smaller section of
                  another mine, that contains equipment they are using. I think there
                  is something in there that they are using to aid their breathing.
                  They are well fed, can breathe easily and are trying to dig
                  themselves out. The miners are barely able to dig, because of some
                  injuries, but I do not know what they are. I do not know what edible
                  things could be found in a coal mine, but they are not eating
                  snakes, birds or rats at this time. I gave this information to the
                  trapped miner Kerry Alreds' brother Steve, Bob Murray, people in the
                  Utau Governors office and the Governor, but I do not know if anyone
                  followed up on this. I told them to drop a speaker down into a drill
                  hole and play Led Zephiland Rock Music through it, loud enough to be
                  heard throuout the entire mine and the miners would come to the
                  speaker, but they did not do that either. It appears that the
                  rescuers are geared to do everything in a standard way and do not
                  use any common sense. The old saying is they cannot see the forest
                  for the trees. Some may think this is an insult to the rescuers, but
                  the more intelligent ones, will look at this and see many
                  possibilities. Wally Lidberg lidberg@nctv. com




                  Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! Get 'em!
                • Rescue1UK@aol.com
                  Jeez, I thought that was taken for granted, you wouldn t get anyone here training out of work time! (Except for competition) Brian UK
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 2, 2007
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jeez, I thought that was taken for granted, you wouldn't get anyone here training out of work time! (Except for competition)
                     
                    Brian
                    UK
                  • cmrescue
                    Rob, All of our training is done on company time. But it does take up some of the team s spare time when they are training for competitions. If some people
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 2, 2007
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Rob,

                      All of our training is done on company time. But it does take up some of the team’s spare time when they are training for competitions. If some people don’t believe me, just ask the wives and girl friends of these guys. Most of them would do well on the written test as well. Let’s not forget to thank them as well for their support!

                       

                      Danny

                       


                      From: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com [mailto: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Rob McGee
                      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 4:15 PM
                      To: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [USMRA] Re: For Sago's sake, let's get this right

                       

                      Danny,

                      I fully agree.  I'm further of the opinion that the rescue team portion of the Act was written without regard and to the detriment (maybe extinction) of both small operators and groups that provide services to multiple operators.

                      Having worked for the PA Bureau of Mine Safety, I can safely say these new requirements will create a scheduling and recordkeeping nightmare - at least for them. that is.

                      Oh, I almost forgot another item that individuals must comply with - participation in two local mine rescue contests each year.  Miss one and you're off the team.

                      Thanks for your comments.

                      Rob


                      --- In MineRescue@yahoogro ups.com , "cmrescue" <cmrescue@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Rob,
                      >
                      > It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews are the
                      ones
                      > at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder what the
                      out
                      > come would have been in the Sago Mine or the
                      w:st="on">Crandall Canyon events would
                      > have been?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > We too have people saying that they will quit if they have to give up any
                      > more of their spare time to do more training. I can see this resulting in
                      > fewer mine rescue volunteers willing to do what they are already doing.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think that more empheses needs to be on educating the miners on what to
                      do
                      > in the event of an emergency.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > It is my opinion that it is what you do in the first fifteen to thirty
                      > minutes of the event that is going to seal your fate and it is not if the
                      > teams are training another 24 hours.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Danny

                    • Rob McGee
                      Danny, I think it s a given that contest preparation requires more of team members. Studying rules, statements of fact, benching apparatus, etc. can t always
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 2, 2007
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Danny,

                        I think it's a given that contest preparation requires more of team members.  Studying rules, statements of fact, benching apparatus, etc. can't always be done properly during team training sessions.

                        That said, poll the last 10 National champions and ask if they feel cheated.

                        While this at-home effort is dependent on an individual's work ethic, I don't any change coming here.  If you want to do better, you can sometimes overlook what some may call hardship.

                        One thing for sure though, by further etching the requirements in stone as they have, the "mine rescue team member" has been moved closer to the driver's seat.

                        Hey, I'm doing my part.  Team members can use the Pop Quiz pages for learning contest statements of fact.

                        http://www.usmra.com/popquiz.htm

                        Rob

                        --- In MineRescue@yahoogroups.com, "cmrescue" <cmrescue@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Rob,
                        >
                        > All of our training is done on company time. But it does take up some of the
                        > team's spare time when they are training for competitions. If some people
                        > don't believe me, just ask the wives and girl friends of these guys. Most of
                        > them would do well on the written test as well. Let's not forget to thank
                        > them as well for their support!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Danny
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MineRescue@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of Rob McGee
                        > Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 4:15 PM
                        > To: MineRescue@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [USMRA] Re: For Sago's sake, let's get this right
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Danny,
                        >
                        > I fully agree. I'm further of the opinion that the rescue team portion of
                        > the Act was written without regard and to the detriment (maybe extinction)
                        > of both small operators and groups that provide services to multiple
                        > operators.
                        >
                        > Having worked for the PA Bureau of Mine Safety, I can safely say these new
                        > requirements will create a scheduling and recordkeeping nightmare - at least
                        > for them. that is.
                        >
                        > Oh, I almost forgot another item that individuals must comply with -
                        > participation in two local mine rescue contests each year. Miss one and
                        > you're off the team.
                        >
                        > Thanks for your comments.
                        >
                        > Rob
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In MineRescue@yahoogroups.com, "cmrescue" cmrescue@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Rob,
                        > >
                        > > It is a shame that some people think that the mine rescue crews are the
                        > ones
                        > > at fault and need to be fixed. Even after the changes, I wonder what the
                        > out
                        > > come would have been in the Sago Mine or the Crandall Canyon events would
                        > > have been?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > We too have people saying that they will quit if they have to give up any
                        > > more of their spare time to do more training. I can see this resulting in
                        > > fewer mine rescue volunteers willing to do what they are already doing.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I think that more empheses needs to be on educating the miners on what to
                        > do
                        > > in the event of an emergency.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > It is my opinion that it is what you do in the first fifteen to thirty
                        > > minutes of the event that is going to seal your fate and it is not if the
                        > > teams are training another 24 hours.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Danny
                        >

                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.