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Re: [Mind and Brain] Re: religion leads to unnecessary pessimism

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  • Roger Clough
    Hi Dr.d As proof of original sin, I offer the nightly news. [Roger Clough], [rclough@verizon.net] 1/1/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2013
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      Hi Dr.d
       
      As proof of original sin, I offer the nightly news.
       
       
      [Roger Clough], [rclough@...]
      1/1/2013
      "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
      ----- Receiving the following content -----
      From: Dr.d
      Receiver: MindBrain
      Time: 2012-12-31, 12:02:11
      Subject: [Mind and Brain] Re: religion leads to unnecessary pessimism

       


      --- In WEDconscious@yahoogroups.com, "Dhushara"  wrote:
      "Well this is a very open honest, response Angel so you are chalking up good kudos here."


      Thanks a lot. I was able to put together some old notes I had that summarizes what I implied in our last exchange. See it expanded at my blog:  <Reflections on the BioPsychoSocial Equilibrium Meta-ethics.>  You already had your New Year arrive in New Zealand, I will welcome it in another few hours, cant wait to see it go with a toast of good Cabernet Sauvignon!  Felicidades,   Angell


      > I admit the origin of consciousness is a deeply challenging question which is perhaps the most central test of human ability to think, or perceive, outside the box.

      > It might seem reasonable to assert that the existential condition places a type of limitation on the capacity of consciousness to understand and experience itself of a similar nature to the way quanta can't be sampled without changing their condition, but even this barrier has proved illusory in the ability to perform weak quantum measurements.

      > However visionaries, mystics and a good number of Indian sages have professed to enter expanded states of inner consciousness in which all these limitations are surpassed.

      > Also arguing on the basis of a cultural paradigm where human fallibility is a working assumption and in which the average person has only a limited grip of the complexities of nature that no human being can or could have the capacity to transcend these barriers is incorrect.

      > Many human breakthroughs happen because exceptionally gifted individuals defeat the law of averages and generate a new paradigm. The explosion of science is a testimony to this process in the face of fallacious doctrines of human fallibility.

      > There is also a more insidious aspect to this doctrine which you seem to profess even though you make a claim to being agnostic and that is the claim that without religion, all human action and all human experience is just a manifestation of sub-human animal instincts driven by selfish survival.

      > You define BPS as biopsychosocial but still seem to clump all this into the sub-human or sub-enlighted category. This goes in glaring contrast with the genetic and evolutionary evidence, which shows that human capacity for compassion is a natural result of the evolution of the mammalian emotional repertoire - a brain process which by its very abstraction transcends genetic determinism and narrow forms of kin selection.

      > One of the most damned and damning lies Christianity has told is that we have original sin rather than original virtue. To persistently deny our good qualities deprives us of the capacity to validate our original virtue to one another and to act on it with confidence in others.

      > In my view repeatedly saying this IS original sin - in this case on your part.

      > Furthermore claiming any conclusion not proven by deductive logic to follow is "belief" is a strategic contrivance. You might as well call all forms of intuition and emotional insight 'belief' as well, but then you have washed the baby out with the bath water.
      <Snip>
    • Roger Clough
      Hi Philip Benjamin Nothingness is simply a domain which is not extended in space. [Roger Clough], [rclough@verizon.net] 1/1/2013 Forever is a long time,
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 1, 2013
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        Hi Philip Benjamin
         
        Nothingness is simply a domain which is not extended in space.
         
         
        [Roger Clough], [rclough@...]
        1/1/2013
        "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
        ----- Receiving the following content -----
        Time: 2012-12-31, 09:43:38
        Subject: RE: [Mind and Brain] Re: religion leads to unnecessary pessimism

         

        [Angell] ".....a renowned theoretical physicist claimed that physical reality may 'emerge' from nothingness".
        [Philip Benjamin] Mathematically, isn't nothingness = 0? Is from zero to a thing real no matter how big or small an infinite change?  Then, is from zero life to an ordinary live thing, no matter how big or small, another infinite jump? Then from an ordinary live thing, say a plant cell to an ordinary sentient animal thing, is there another infinite gap? Then again, from an ordinary animal cell to a self-aware ratiocinative human, is there another infinite chasm?  How many infinities one has to swallow to arrive at such a "brilliant"  acade-media conclusion? Today, Talmudic wisdom is assumed to be the highest humanly attainable knowledge in the Western world. These infinites are far beyond that. Suppose, the simplest most elegant presuposition of the aseity of the Infinite Life is after all true. Will this acade-media "brilliance" be any less?  
         
        Best regards
        Philip  
         
         
        Philip Benjamin
        PhD.MSc.MA

        Evidentialist

        Forthcoming book: "Spiritual Body or Physical Spirit? Your Invisible Doppelg´┐Żnger"

        http://biodarkmatter.webs.com/index.htm

        Materialism/Physicalism Extraordinaire

         "Bio Dark-Matter Chemistry", International Journal of Current Research and Reviews Vol 4 issue 20, 2012

        <Snip>
      • chris kramer
        Such horrors in the news tell only of how currently living people can do horrible things; it says nothing of our ancestors actions for which it is absurd to
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 1, 2013
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          Such horrors in the news tell only of how currently living people can do horrible things; it says nothing of our ancestors' actions for which it is absurd to think we should be punished for them.  And how do tornadoes get chalked up in Original Sin? 
           
          Chris
          From: Roger Clough <rclough@...>
          To: "- MindBrain@yahoogroups.com" <MindBrain@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:26 AM
          Subject: Re: [Mind and Brain] Re: religion leads to unnecessary pessimism
           
          Hi Dr.d
           
          As proof of original sin, I offer the nightly news.
           
           
          [Roger Clough], mailto:rclough@...]
          1/1/2013
          "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
          ----- Receiving the following content -----
          From: Dr.d
          Receiver: MindBrain
          Time: 2012-12-31, 12:02:11
          Subject: [Mind and Brain] Re: religion leads to unnecessary pessimism

           

          --- In WEDconscious@yahoogroups.com, "Dhushara"  wrote:
          "Well this is a very open honest, response Angel so you are chalking up good kudos here."

          Thanks a lot. I was able to put together some old notes I had that summarizes what I implied in our last exchange. See it expanded at my blog:  <Reflections on the BioPsychoSocial Equilibrium Meta-ethics.>  You already had your New Year arrive in New Zealand, I will welcome it in another few hours, cant wait to see it go with a toast of good Cabernet Sauvignon!  Felicidades,   Angell

          >  > I admit the origin of consciousness is a deeply challenging question which is perhaps the most central test of human ability to think, or perceive, outside the box. >  > It might seem reasonable to assert that the existential condition places a type of limitation on the capacity of consciousness to understand and experience itself of a similar nature to the way quanta can't be sampled without changing their condition, but even this barrier has proved illusory in the ability to perform weak quantum measurements. >  > However visionaries, mystics and a good number of Indian sages have professed to enter expanded states of inner consciousness in which all these limitations are surpassed. >  > Also arguing on the basis of a cultural paradigm where human fallibility is a working assumption and in which the average person has only a limited grip of the complexities of nature that no human being can or could have the capacity to transcend these barriers is incorrect. >  > Many human breakthroughs happen because exceptionally gifted individuals defeat the law of averages and generate a new paradigm. The explosion of science is a testimony to this process in the face of fallacious doctrines of human fallibility. >  > There is also a more insidious aspect to this doctrine which you seem to profess even though you make a claim to being agnostic and that is the claim that without religion, all human action and all human experience is just a manifestation of sub-human animal instincts driven by selfish survival. >  > You define BPS as biopsychosocial but still seem to clump all this into the sub-human or sub-enlighted category. This goes in glaring contrast with the genetic and evolutionary evidence, which shows that human capacity for compassion is a natural result of the evolution of the mammalian emotional repertoire - a brain process which by its very abstraction transcends genetic determinism and narrow forms of kin selection. >  > One of the most damned and damning lies Christianity has told is that we have original sin rather than original virtue. To persistently deny our good qualities deprives us of the capacity to validate our original virtue to one another and to act on it with confidence in others. >  > In my view repeatedly saying this IS original sin - in this case on your part. >  > Furthermore claiming any conclusion not proven by deductive logic to follow is "belief" is a strategic contrivance. You might as well call all forms of intuition and emotional insight 'belief' as well, but then you have washed the baby out with the bath water.
          <Snip>
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