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Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion

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  • Jim Rogers Sr
    Dear Elwyn, Thank you so much! Living in the U.S. I have no clue if what I’m reading is correct. I will adjust my writing. I’m going to be working on
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 15, 2013
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      Dear Elwyn,
       
           Thank you so much! Living in the U.S. I have no clue if what I’m reading is correct. I will adjust my writing. I’m going to be working on Rathlin and the Lords of the Isles and my Alan of Galloway connection next. I’ve had too much going on to write lately, but, hope to get back to it soon.
       
           I had looked at St. Columba, feel free to correct me.

      Saint Columba

           Columba was born in a Gartan, County Donegal, Ireland family, about the year 521. His father was Fedhlimidh and was of the reigning clans in Ireland and British Dalriada. His mother, Eithne was descended from a provincial king.

           Columba was baptized, at Tulach-Dubhglaise, now called Temple Douglas according to tradition, by the presbyter, Cruithnechan with the name Colum. Later cille was added to Colum. Cille meant “of the church”.

           A youthful Columba or Columcille traveled to Moville. Leaving Moville as a Deacon, he travelled south to Leinster and studied with Gemman, an aged bard. At Clonard, a monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, came Columba as a student. He was sent to Etchen, the bishop of Clonfad, who ordained him as a preist.

           Columba then entered a monastery near Dublin called Mobhi Claranech. It was here that others he had known at Clonard stayed also, S.S. Comgall, Ciaran, and Cainnech. In the year 544, a violent distemper among those there caused them to break up the community.

           Columba headed north again. He founded the church in Derry (now called Londonderry) in the year 546, when he was 25. In 553 he founded the monastery of Durrow.

           In 561 there was battle fought in Cooldrevny, Ireland, Columba may have instigated this battle. A synod met to excommunicate him, but the vote was not unanimous. He decided to sail for Scotland. It was within a day’s sail of his home territory.

           Christianity was not yet the religion of the people there, especially the Picts, some of the Scots were Christian in name only. In 563, Columba and twelve of his attendants came to the island of Hy on the approval of King Conall, a relative of Columba’s. Iona was in both the jurisdiction of the Picts and the Scots. Columba worked diligently as a missionary for the conversion of these people. King Conall’s ministers were against Columba’s teachings on Christianity, but the people eventually became Christians.

            Columba was granted possession of the island of Hy, by King Conall. The King died in the year 574. Aidan, the cousin to King Conall, succeeded him, and was inaugurated by Columba at Hy.

           Baetan mac Cairill had imposed his authority over Dal Riata in Scotland and over the Isle of Man. He is described as king of Ireland and Scotland.

           In the year 575, there was a meeting at Drumceatt. The Irish, Dal Fiatach, King Baetan mac Cairill had claimed the territory. Columba was at Drumceatt along with King Aidan, when the Scottish Dalriada was declared independent of Ireland.

           The Irish continued to try to control Scottish Dalriada, even after Baetan mac Cairill died in 581.

      Irish Interests

           Saint Columba was within a day’s sail from his homeland in Ireland and continued to be interested in the area’s politics.

           In 579, there was a question about a church in Coleraine. Saint Columba’s tribe and Saint Comgall’s tribe were both claiming control there. The church there caused strife between Columba and Comgall.

           In June of 585, Columba sailed for Ireland to visit Durrow, where he had founded the monastery in 553, and then west to Clonmacnois were he was warmly received.

       

           In 587, there was a battle fought at Cuilfedha near Clonard in Ireland, the monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, when Columba as a student. Saint Columba is said to have been an interested party in this battle.

       

      Scotland

           Columba spent his life sharing the Love of Jesus Christ with the Irish, the Picts, and the Scots. In 593, it seems Columba was near death. He declared the angels were sent to conduct his soul to paradise, however, he recovered and lived another four years. He died June 9th, 597, while on his knees at the altar.

                           Rebecca McCarl Rogers
       
      Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:41 AM
      Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
       
       

      Rebecca,
       
      The isle of Iona isn't anywhere near Elgin or Morayshire. It's on the west side of Scotland, off the island of Mull. (Iona was the base of St Columba's religious settlement in Scotland and has traditionally been used for the burial of some Kings and others of importance, so it's quite possible that's where Duncan was buried. Just that it's 150 miles west of Elgin.).
       
       
      Elwyn
       
      From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
      To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
      Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 15:06
      Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
       
          I had been looking at this period of time recently while working on a book about my family. Malcolm III was my ancestor. This is what I found. Please let me know if anything is incorrect.
       
           Duncan I Mac Crinan was born about 1001 in Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland, to Crinan the Abbot of Dunkeld and Bethoc. He was heir to the Scottish throne through his mother Bethoc or Beatrix the daughter of Malcolm II. He was the first in the House of Dunkeld line. He married Sybilla of Northumbria. His sons were King Malcolm III Canmore, King Donald III Bane, and Melmar. Duncan I Mac Crinan was King of Scots 1034-1040. He strengthened his hold over Strathclyde.  Macbeth of Moray had a claim to the kingdom also. Some say, Macbeth did not want Duncan I’s sons Malcolm and Donald to inherit and so Macbeth murdered Duncan I., or that Duncan I and Macbeth had been in a battle at Pitgaveny near Elgin where Duncan I was fatally wounded by Macbeth. Macbeth then became King.…..Duncan I’s  sons escaped Macbeth…… Duncan I Mac Crinan died August 14, 1041 in Bothganowan, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland. He was buried on the Isle of Iona, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland.
                                               Rebecca McCarl Rogers
       
       
       
      Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:23 AM
      Subject: RE: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
       
       
      That was a hard question as one had to ask ‘was Macbeth a real king’ to get the answer from a definitive source. 
      Enjoy your trip
      Mary
      From: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Crooks
      Sent: 15 August 2013 12:15
      To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
       
      Subject: Confusion
      In todays newspaper in the historical section, there is a short article which says: 1057 Macbeth, King of Scotland  was killed ny Malcolm 111, son of Kind Duncan.
      MY QUESTION is who was King Duncan and what was he king of ?
      Here in chilly Maryland I woke to 52 degrees this a.m. whatever ghappened to "hot August ?
                                 Gordon
    • Elwyn Soutter
      Rebecca,   I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to comment on St Columba’s early life. You have plenty of material there and it’s all very impressive.
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 16, 2013
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        Rebecca,
         
        I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to comment on St Columba’s early life. You have plenty of material there and it’s all very impressive.

        There had been a few attempts to introduce Christianity to Scotland prior to St Columba but eg St Ninian in Whithorn, but as I understand it, these communities had little influence with the average man and woman, and for all purposes Scotland was still a pagan country till St Columba arrived. He gets the credit for establishing the religion across Scotland.
         
        It’s certainly true that Iona is little more than a day’s sail from Donegal. The distance between Ireland and most of the Hebridean islands is quite small. As you probably know Islay, Jura, the Kintyre peninsula and the Ayrshire coast are normally clearly visible from Antrim. People were back and forth all the time, and still are to this day. I sailed over to Islay from Ballycastle in a yacht a couple of years back and it took about 4 hours. (There’s a chap in Ballycastle with a fast boat that regularly takes distillery workers back and forth between Bushmills and Islay*, together with anyone else who wants to go. That takes about an hour and a half). The distance from Inishowen in Donegal to Iona would be about 60 miles. I would say that with a fair wind you could get to Iona in about 8 hours in a sailing boat. St Columba initially established a religious outpost on the island of Oronsay (at the bottom end of Colonsay, and just north of Islay) but is said to have left for Iona because on a clear day he could still see Ireland and it made him homesick.
         
        The name Scotland and the Gaelic language came from the Scoti tribe in Co Antrim. Around 495AD they decided to expand their kingdom and sailed over to Dunadd (just south of modern Oban) where they established their capital and where their kings were crowned sitting on the Stone of Destiny which they are said to have brought with them from Ireland. Some claim it’s one half of the Blarney stone, now stuck on the outer wall of Blarney Castle. Who knows?  Anyway the Stone of Destiny has apparently made its way down through the ages and is the stone on which British monarchs are still crowned to this day. So Scotland was named after the Scoti, an Irish tribe. (Previously it was mostly called Alba). Prior to 495AD most of Scotland spoke a language pretty similar to Welsh (which of course is related to Irish anyway - the Celtic languages all share a common Bryonic origin). For reasons that are not entirely clear, welsh died out over a period of a couple of centuries, apparently without a fuss or written comment, and was replaced by Irish Gaelic though the scholars say that Scottish Gaelic today bears traces of Pictish influence in its syntax, and so now differs slightly from Irish Gaelic. I shall not argue with them.
         
        So from 495AD onwards the Picts were gradually replaced by the Scoti as rulers (insofar as there was organised rule) within Scotland. Again, like the language, the Picts just seem to have faded away without any great struggle or wars. They left their mark on a few Ogham stones and in a few place names eg Pitlochry and Pittenween, but otherwise just vanished. Presumably intermarried rather than died out.
         
        But you can see how from the establishment of Dalriada by the Scoti, and their domination of all the west coast and its islands, the stage was set for events over the next 1000 years. Not only did they all speak the same language, there was constant trade and movement of people between Ireland and Scotland. The concept of being Scottish or Irish is, to me, in some ways a much more recent classification, and I feel sure that the people in the Hebrides and Co Antrim at the periods we are talking about thought in much more localised terms and probably mostly saw themselves as part of a common heritage. Even after the Lordship of the Isles was declared forfeit to the Crown in the 1400s, the southern part of the domain was run by the McDonnells/MacDonalds at Finlagan on Islay, and that included Rathlin and the northern part of Co Antrim where the Scoti originated. Thus when the Irish Earls fled in 1607, many of the tenants on the McDonnell’s Scottish estates who were then encouraged to go to Antrim were going to lands their ancestors had occupied off and on for several thousand years. No sense of invasion or any big cultural change for them, I would have thought. Arguably, for some, it hasn’t changed that much to this day.
         
        Here’s a link that covers some of the history:
         
         
         
         
        Elwyn


        * Very properly there's massive argument about which is better - Irish whiskey or Scotch. Hopefully no-one will ever answer that question satisfactorily. I was amused to discover some time ago that some of the Scottish and Irish distilleries routinely swop staff, for the usual business reasons.  So some Bushmills Irish whiskey is made by Scots, and some of the Islay distilleries have people from Bushmills doing their manufacturing. I thought that added an extra amusing dimension to the rivalry.
         


        From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
        To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
        Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 16:37
        Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion

         
        Dear Elwyn,
         
             Thank you so much! Living in the U.S. I have no clue if what I’m reading is correct. I will adjust my writing. I’m going to be working on Rathlin and the Lords of the Isles and my Alan of Galloway connection next. I’ve had too much going on to write lately, but, hope to get back to it soon.
         
             I had looked at St. Columba, feel free to correct me.
        Saint Columba
             Columba was born in a Gartan, County Donegal, Ireland family, about the year 521. His father was Fedhlimidh and was of the reigning clans in Ireland and British Dalriada. His mother, Eithne was descended from a provincial king.
             Columba was baptized, at Tulach-Dubhglaise, now called Temple Douglas according to tradition, by the presbyter, Cruithnechan with the name Colum. Later cille was added to Colum. Cille meant “of the church”.
             A youthful Columba or Columcille traveled to Moville. Leaving Moville as a Deacon, he travelled south to Leinster and studied with Gemman, an aged bard. At Clonard, a monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, came Columba as a student. He was sent to Etchen, the bishop of Clonfad, who ordained him as a preist.
             Columba then entered a monastery near Dublin called Mobhi Claranech. It was here that others he had known at Clonard stayed also, S.S. Comgall, Ciaran, and Cainnech. In the year 544, a violent distemper among those there caused them to break up the community.
             Columba headed north again. He founded the church in Derry (now called Londonderry) in the year 546, when he was 25. In 553 he founded the monastery of Durrow.
             In 561 there was battle fought in Cooldrevny, Ireland, Columba may have instigated this battle. A synod met to excommunicate him, but the vote was not unanimous. He decided to sail for Scotland. It was within a day’s sail of his home territory.
             Christianity was not yet the religion of the people there, especially the Picts, some of the Scots were Christian in name only. In 563, Columba and twelve of his attendants came to the island of Hy on the approval of King Conall, a relative of Columba’s. Iona was in both the jurisdiction of the Picts and the Scots. Columba worked diligently as a missionary for the conversion of these people. King Conall’s ministers were against Columba’s teachings on Christianity, but the people eventually became Christians.
              Columba was granted possession of the island of Hy, by King Conall. The King died in the year 574. Aidan, the cousin to King Conall, succeeded him, and was inaugurated by Columba at Hy.
             Baetan mac Cairill had imposed his authority over Dal Riata in Scotland and over the Isle of Man. He is described as king of Ireland and Scotland.
             In the year 575, there was a meeting at Drumceatt. The Irish, Dal Fiatach, King Baetan mac Cairill had claimed the territory. Columba was at Drumceatt along with King Aidan, when the Scottish Dalriada was declared independent of Ireland.
             The Irish continued to try to control Scottish Dalriada, even after Baetan mac Cairill died in 581.
        Irish Interests
             Saint Columba was within a day’s sail from his homeland in Ireland and continued to be interested in the area’s politics.
             In 579, there was a question about a church in Coleraine. Saint Columba’s tribe and Saint Comgall’s tribe were both claiming control there. The church there caused strife between Columba and Comgall.
             In June of 585, Columba sailed for Ireland to visit Durrow, where he had founded the monastery in 553, and then west to Clonmacnois were he was warmly received.
         
             In 587, there was a battle fought at Cuilfedha near Clonard in Ireland, the monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, when Columba as a student. Saint Columba is said to have been an interested party in this battle.
         
        Scotland
             Columba spent his life sharing the Love of Jesus Christ with the Irish, the Picts, and the Scots. In 593, it seems Columba was near death. He declared the angels were sent to conduct his soul to paradise, however, he recovered and lived another four years. He died June 9th, 597, while on his knees at the altar.
                             Rebecca McCarl Rogers
         
        Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:41 AM
        Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
         
         
        Rebecca,
         
        The isle of Iona isn't anywhere near Elgin or Morayshire. It's on the west side of Scotland, off the island of Mull. (Iona was the base of St Columba's religious settlement in Scotland and has traditionally been used for the burial of some Kings and others of importance, so it's quite possible that's where Duncan was buried. Just that it's 150 miles west of Elgin.).
         
         
        Elwyn
         
        From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
        To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
        Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 15:06
        Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
         
            I had been looking at this period of time recently while working on a book about my family. Malcolm III was my ancestor. This is what I found. Please let me know if anything is incorrect.
         
             Duncan I Mac Crinan was born about 1001 in Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland, to Crinan the Abbot of Dunkeld and Bethoc. He was heir to the Scottish throne through his mother Bethoc or Beatrix the daughter of Malcolm II. He was the first in the House of Dunkeld line. He married Sybilla of Northumbria. His sons were King Malcolm III Canmore, King Donald III Bane, and Melmar. Duncan I Mac Crinan was King of Scots 1034-1040. He strengthened his hold over Strathclyde.  Macbeth of Moray had a claim to the kingdom also. Some say, Macbeth did not want Duncan I’s sons Malcolm and Donald to inherit and so Macbeth murdered Duncan I., or that Duncan I and Macbeth had been in a battle at Pitgaveny near Elgin where Duncan I was fatally wounded by Macbeth. Macbeth then became King.…..Duncan I’s  sons escaped Macbeth…… Duncan I Mac Crinan died August 14, 1041 in Bothganowan, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland. He was buried on the Isle of Iona, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland.
                                                 Rebecca McCarl Rogers
         
         
         
        Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:23 AM
        Subject: RE: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
         
         
        That was a hard question as one had to ask ‘was Macbeth a real king’ to get the answer from a definitive source. 
        Enjoy your trip
        Mary
        From: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Crooks
        Sent: 15 August 2013 12:15
        To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
         
        Subject: Confusion
        In todays newspaper in the historical section, there is a short article which says: 1057 Macbeth, King of Scotland  was killed ny Malcolm 111, son of Kind Duncan.
        MY QUESTION is who was King Duncan and what was he king of ?
        Here in chilly Maryland I woke to 52 degrees this a.m. whatever ghappened to "hot August ?
                                   Gordon


      • Jim Rogers Sr
        Dear Elwyn, Thanks for this reply. Not many people have enough knowledge or interest about this time period to reply. I had written some about Saint Ninian.
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 17, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Elwyn,
           
               Thanks for this reply. Not many people have enough knowledge or interest about this time period to reply.
           
               I had written some about Saint Ninian.
          Saint Ninian
           

              Saint Ninian ( also called Ringan and Trynnian) is said to have lived in the 4th to 5th century and travelled to Scotland to minister to the Southern Picts there.

             
              Briton’s Saint Ninian was taught in Rome, according to Northumbrian  monk Bede, who wrote ”The Ecclesiastical History of the English People” in circa 731.
           
             This was about the same period Saint Patrick had gone to Ireland to work as a Christian Missionary, he also worked independently, not directly under a Roman Pope. Later Saint Columba was a Missionary to the Northern Picts.
           
              Saint Ninian is associated with a ‘White House’ or Candida Casa. This later became known as Whithorn Priory. In circa 731, “The Ecclesiastical History of the English People” written by Northumbrian monk Bede mentions Ninian of Whithorn.
           

          The mac Cairill/ M’Kerrel/ M’Kerlie family and Whithorn

               The MacCarrolls lost their power in Ulster. The family had always been back and forth on the Irish Sea between Ireland and Scotland. They were …..Celtic Gaelic or Irish and Scot blood….. Loarn, Angus, and Fergus from Dalriada (Gaelic) territory in Ulster, Ireland, had in the year 506 moved and set up the Dalriada (Gaelic) kingdom in Scotland. Being called Scotti, the country of Scotland was named for them. The Ulaid in Ulster, Ireland had their own fleet in the Irish sea and by 1091 there was close relations with the kingdom of the Isles. Some of the family fled to Scotland across the sea after the battle in 1095/6/7.

           

               The island of Rathlin is 6 miles from Ballycastle, County Antrim, Province of Ulster North Ireland, home of the mac Cairills at the time of the battle 1095/6/7. The island of Rathlin is 16 miles from the Mull of Kintyre in Scotland. From the Mull of Kintyre on a clear day, you can see Ireland. Traveling between these places was easy if the wind was with you, just a trip of a few hours.

           

               Lochlain mac Cairill heir to the throne in Ulster… fled to Carrick in Ayrshire, Scotland, where Maybole was the ancient capital. They lived at a place called Caroltoun, Cairiltoun, Cairletoun or Kairltoun, Lochlain mac Cairill had helped in the fight against the Norsemen, the Danes, taking Eric prisoner and was given the land for his service at Colmonell Parish, Carrick, Ayrshire, Scotland. Cruggleton Castle was built by the Norsemen and then taken by the Mac Cairills, who lived there for about two centuries. Matain or Baetain or Baedan Mac Cairill and Rad. Makerel or Randolph Mac Cairell were witnesses on land charters from 1165-1214.

               Whithorn at a much later date is where the mac Cairill/ M’Kerrel/ M’Kerlie family worshiped after moving from Ireland in 1095/6/7, according to  “History of the Lands and Their Owners In Galloway with Historical Sketches of the District” Volume II by P.H. M’Kerlie 1906. The early history of the Mac Cairills was at Crossraguel, which was destroyed by fire. Later during the Reformation in 1560 more records were also destroyed of the family’s history at Whithorn.

               The early missionaries worked independently, not directly under a Roman Pope, however at a much later date, Lochlain mac Cairill ‘s descendants worshiped in the Irish-Scottish Celtic church, in a way taught them by Saint Patrick. King David I (ca.1080-1153) tried to force Catholicism on the people. The Roman Catholic Church moved into the area and the Irish-Scottish Celtic church was taken over, leaving the Mac Cairills no desire to be part of it. These feelings later led to great Reformation in the Church in 1560.

          ..........................................

               I find that my Irish and Scots family are so intertwined together with Scandinavia and The Isle of Man and Somerled from whom Helen of Galloway (daughter of Alan of Galloway) descend as well as the Lords of the Isles and Clan MacDonnell, then Helen of Galloway married Roger Quincy (Earl of Winchester) 1174-1264 and from there this line of mine was in England.

               The Stone of Destiny fascinates me!

               The site you listed has much information for me!

               My interests are not one country or time period, I like to know my family from the earliest times and what they were experiencing, as well as their descendants and why they moved!

           

                           Rebecca McCarl Rogers

           

           

           
          Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 1:15 PM
          Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
           
           

          Rebecca,
           
          I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to comment on St Columba’s early life. You have plenty of material there and it’s all very impressive.

          There had been a few attempts to introduce Christianity to Scotland prior to St Columba but eg St Ninian in Whithorn, but as I understand it, these communities had little influence with the average man and woman, and for all purposes Scotland was still a pagan country till St Columba arrived. He gets the credit for establishing the religion across Scotland.
           
          It’s certainly true that Iona is little more than a day’s sail from Donegal. The distance between Ireland and most of the Hebridean islands is quite small. As you probably know Islay, Jura, the Kintyre peninsula and the Ayrshire coast are normally clearly visible from Antrim. People were back and forth all the time, and still are to this day. I sailed over to Islay from Ballycastle in a yacht a couple of years back and it took about 4 hours. (There’s a chap in Ballycastle with a fast boat that regularly takes distillery workers back and forth between Bushmills and Islay*, together with anyone else who wants to go. That takes about an hour and a half). The distance from Inishowen in Donegal to Iona would be about 60 miles. I would say that with a fair wind you could get to Iona in about 8 hours in a sailing boat. St Columba initially established a religious outpost on the island of Oronsay (at the bottom end of Colonsay, and just north of Islay) but is said to have left for Iona because on a clear day he could still see Ireland and it made him homesick.
           
          The name Scotland and the Gaelic language came from the Scoti tribe in Co Antrim. Around 495AD they decided to expand their kingdom and sailed over to Dunadd (just south of modern Oban) where they established their capital and where their kings were crowned sitting on the Stone of Destiny which they are said to have brought with them from Ireland. Some claim it’s one half of the Blarney stone, now stuck on the outer wall of Blarney Castle. Who knows?  Anyway the Stone of Destiny has apparently made its way down through the ages and is the stone on which British monarchs are still crowned to this day. So Scotland was named after the Scoti, an Irish tribe. (Previously it was mostly called Alba). Prior to 495AD most of Scotland spoke a language pretty similar to Welsh (which of course is related to Irish anyway - the Celtic languages all share a common Bryonic origin). For reasons that are not entirely clear, welsh died out over a period of a couple of centuries, apparently without a fuss or written comment, and was replaced by Irish Gaelic though the scholars say that Scottish Gaelic today bears traces of Pictish influence in its syntax, and so now differs slightly from Irish Gaelic. I shall not argue with them.
           
          So from 495AD onwards the Picts were gradually replaced by the Scoti as rulers (insofar as there was organised rule) within Scotland. Again, like the language, the Picts just seem to have faded away without any great struggle or wars. They left their mark on a few Ogham stones and in a few place names eg Pitlochry and Pittenween, but otherwise just vanished. Presumably intermarried rather than died out.
           
          But you can see how from the establishment of Dalriada by the Scoti, and their domination of all the west coast and its islands, the stage was set for events over the next 1000 years. Not only did they all speak the same language, there was constant trade and movement of people between Ireland and Scotland. The concept of being Scottish or Irish is, to me, in some ways a much more recent classification, and I feel sure that the people in the Hebrides and Co Antrim at the periods we are talking about thought in much more localised terms and probably mostly saw themselves as part of a common heritage. Even after the Lordship of the Isles was declared forfeit to the Crown in the 1400s, the southern part of the domain was run by the McDonnells/MacDonalds at Finlagan on Islay, and that included Rathlin and the northern part of Co Antrim where the Scoti originated. Thus when the Irish Earls fled in 1607, many of the tenants on the McDonnell’s Scottish estates who were then encouraged to go to Antrim were going to lands their ancestors had occupied off and on for several thousand years. No sense of invasion or any big cultural change for them, I would have thought. Arguably, for some, it hasn’t changed that much to this day.
           
          Here’s a link that covers some of the history:
           
           
           
           
          Elwyn


          * Very properly there's massive argument about which is better - Irish whiskey or Scotch. Hopefully no-one will ever answer that question satisfactorily. I was amused to discover some time ago that some of the Scottish and Irish distilleries routinely swop staff, for the usual business reasons.  So some Bushmills Irish whiskey is made by Scots, and some of the Islay distilleries have people from Bushmills doing their manufacturing. I thought that added an extra amusing dimension to the rivalry.
           
           

          From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
          To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
          Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 16:37
          Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
           
           
          Dear Elwyn,
           
               Thank you so much! Living in the U.S. I have no clue if what I’m reading is correct. I will adjust my writing. I’m going to be working on Rathlin and the Lords of the Isles and my Alan of Galloway connection next. I’ve had too much going on to write lately, but, hope to get back to it soon.
           
               I had looked at St. Columba, feel free to correct me.
          Saint Columba
               Columba was born in a Gartan, County Donegal, Ireland family, about the year 521. His father was Fedhlimidh and was of the reigning clans in Ireland and British Dalriada. His mother, Eithne was descended from a provincial king.
               Columba was baptized, at Tulach-Dubhglaise, now called Temple Douglas according to tradition, by the presbyter, Cruithnechan with the name Colum. Later cille was added to Colum. Cille meant “of the church”.
               A youthful Columba or Columcille traveled to Moville. Leaving Moville as a Deacon, he travelled south to Leinster and studied with Gemman, an aged bard. At Clonard, a monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, came Columba as a student. He was sent to Etchen, the bishop of Clonfad, who ordained him as a preist.
               Columba then entered a monastery near Dublin called Mobhi Claranech. It was here that others he had known at Clonard stayed also, S.S. Comgall, Ciaran, and Cainnech. In the year 544, a violent distemper among those there caused them to break up the community.
               Columba headed north again. He founded the church in Derry (now called Londonderry) in the year 546, when he was 25. In 553 he founded the monastery of Durrow.
               In 561 there was battle fought in Cooldrevny, Ireland, Columba may have instigated this battle. A synod met to excommunicate him, but the vote was not unanimous. He decided to sail for Scotland. It was within a day’s sail of his home territory.
               Christianity was not yet the religion of the people there, especially the Picts, some of the Scots were Christian in name only. In 563, Columba and twelve of his attendants came to the island of Hy on the approval of King Conall, a relative of Columba’s. Iona was in both the jurisdiction of the Picts and the Scots. Columba worked diligently as a missionary for the conversion of these people. King Conall’s ministers were against Columba’s teachings on Christianity, but the people eventually became Christians.
                Columba was granted possession of the island of Hy, by King Conall. The King died in the year 574. Aidan, the cousin to King Conall, succeeded him, and was inaugurated by Columba at Hy.
               Baetan mac Cairill had imposed his authority over Dal Riata in Scotland and over the Isle of Man. He is described as king of Ireland and Scotland.
               In the year 575, there was a meeting at Drumceatt. The Irish, Dal Fiatach, King Baetan mac Cairill had claimed the territory. Columba was at Drumceatt along with King Aidan, when the Scottish Dalriada was declared independent of Ireland.
               The Irish continued to try to control Scottish Dalriada, even after Baetan mac Cairill died in 581.
          Irish Interests
               Saint Columba was within a day’s sail from his homeland in Ireland and continued to be interested in the area’s politics.
               In 579, there was a question about a church in Coleraine. Saint Columba’s tribe and Saint Comgall’s tribe were both claiming control there. The church there caused strife between Columba and Comgall.
               In June of 585, Columba sailed for Ireland to visit Durrow, where he had founded the monastery in 553, and then west to Clonmacnois were he was warmly received.
           
               In 587, there was a battle fought at Cuilfedha near Clonard in Ireland, the monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, when Columba as a student. Saint Columba is said to have been an interested party in this battle.
           
          Scotland
               Columba spent his life sharing the Love of Jesus Christ with the Irish, the Picts, and the Scots. In 593, it seems Columba was near death. He declared the angels were sent to conduct his soul to paradise, however, he recovered and lived another four years. He died June 9th, 597, while on his knees at the altar.
                               Rebecca McCarl Rogers
           
          Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:41 AM
          Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
           
           
          Rebecca,
           
          The isle of Iona isn't anywhere near Elgin or Morayshire. It's on the west side of Scotland, off the island of Mull. (Iona was the base of St Columba's religious settlement in Scotland and has traditionally been used for the burial of some Kings and others of importance, so it's quite possible that's where Duncan was buried. Just that it's 150 miles west of Elgin.).
           
           
          Elwyn
           
          From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
          To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
          Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 15:06
          Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
           
              I had been looking at this period of time recently while working on a book about my family. Malcolm III was my ancestor. This is what I found. Please let me know if anything is incorrect.
           
               Duncan I Mac Crinan was born about 1001 in Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland, to Crinan the Abbot of Dunkeld and Bethoc. He was heir to the Scottish throne through his mother Bethoc or Beatrix the daughter of Malcolm II. He was the first in the House of Dunkeld line. He married Sybilla of Northumbria. His sons were King Malcolm III Canmore, King Donald III Bane, and Melmar. Duncan I Mac Crinan was King of Scots 1034-1040. He strengthened his hold over Strathclyde.  Macbeth of Moray had a claim to the kingdom also. Some say, Macbeth did not want Duncan I’s sons Malcolm and Donald to inherit and so Macbeth murdered Duncan I., or that Duncan I and Macbeth had been in a battle at Pitgaveny near Elgin where Duncan I was fatally wounded by Macbeth. Macbeth then became King.…..Duncan I’s  sons escaped Macbeth…… Duncan I Mac Crinan died August 14, 1041 in Bothganowan, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland. He was buried on the Isle of Iona, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland.
                                                   Rebecca McCarl Rogers
           
           
           
          Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:23 AM
          Subject: RE: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
           
           
          That was a hard question as one had to ask ‘was Macbeth a real king’ to get the answer from a definitive source. 
          Enjoy your trip
          Mary
          From: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Crooks
          Sent: 15 August 2013 12:15
          To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
           
          Subject: Confusion
          In todays newspaper in the historical section, there is a short article which says: 1057 Macbeth, King of Scotland  was killed ny Malcolm 111, son of Kind Duncan.
          MY QUESTION is who was King Duncan and what was he king of ?
          Here in chilly Maryland I woke to 52 degrees this a.m. whatever ghappened to "hot August ?
                                     Gordon


        • Jim Rogers Sr
          I forgot to add a little about The Isles. There was a territorial lord, descended from Fergus of the Dalriada (Gaelic) that moved to Scotland from Ulster,
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 22, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
                  I forgot to add a little about The Isles.
             

                  There was a territorial lord, descended from Fergus of the Dalriada (Gaelic) that moved to Scotland from Ulster, called Somhairle of Argyle, he was also called by the Norweigen form of the name, Somerlad. The islands between the mainlands of Scotland and Ireland were in control of Somerlad in 1164 including Rathlin Island  at that time. His son, Ragnald had a son called Donald/Donnell Mor McRanald who died in 1269. The MacDonnell clan are his descendants. They were in control of the Hebrides, Knoydart, Ardnamurchan, and Kintyre……Rathlin Island is the nearest island to Ireland and now part of Ireland, then considered part of the Scotti Isles territory held by Somhairle of Argyle or Somerlad, it is possible the MacCairill’s may have fled first to Rathlin Island before continuing on to Carrick in Ayrshire, Scotland.

             

                  King Henry III of England allowed in 1248 Walter Byset/Bissett to buy up Irish stores to supply Dunaverty Castle in Kintyre, where the MacDonnell’s lived, which King Henry III had seized.

             

                 After William Wallace and William MacCairill’s death in 1305, Robert the Bruce continued the fight against the English. Donald/Donnell Mor McRanald’s eldest son was Angus Mor MacDonnell.  Angus Mor MacDonnell’s oldest son was also called Angus Mor but had also been called Angus Og MacDonnell. He was a supporter of Robert the Bruce. He had given shelter, first at the castle of Saudell in Cantire, then at a Castle/ Fortress at Dunaverty on the Mull of Kintyre, to Robert the Bruce after the Battle of Methven in February 1306. Angus Og had Bruce sail for Rathlin for greater security, sheltered by Hugh Byset. Three hundred men came with Bruce to Rathlin, were there MacCairills/ McCarrolls among them? …..Angus Og MacDonnell around 1310 had Mulrony MacCarrol, Chief Minstrel of Ireland and Scotland as a guest. Angus Og MacDonnell asked that he send sons to become Hereditary Minstrels on Islay.

             

                  By the 1300s Donslevy MacCarroll (d. 1357), is described by the “Annals of the Four Masters” as "a noble master of music and melody, the best of his time";  Mulrory MacCarroll (d. 1328), was called Chief Minstrel of Ireland and Scotland. The family was noted for its musicians.

             

                 The MacDonnells later were at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314 with Robert the Bruce. Angus Oge MacDonnell brought ten thousand men to Bannockburn. Angus Oge and the Isles-men were on the right flank of the army and later given that position in honor…... Were there MacCairills/ McCarrolls among them?..... The family had been in Carrick, Ayrshire at the same time as Bruce’s…... In 1096 the MacCairills had moved to near Maybole (the Ancient Capital), Carrick in Ayrshire, Scotland. Carrick is also where Marjorie of Carrick was from, she married Robert Bruce, the Lord of Annandale. They were the parents of King Robert the Bruce. Had the families known each other there? In Carrick in 1165 to 1214 were Matain Mac Cairill and Rad. Makerel (Randolph Mac Cairill) as witnesses to charters. There are later McKerrells living in this area. The MacCairills /McCarrolls also had been in the Isles with Angus Oge.

             

                 There was constant flow of people between Ireland and Scotland and back again, later there are McCarrolls and M’Kerrells who were Merchants and sailors.

             

                               Rebecca McCarl Rogers

             
            Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 1:15 PM
            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
             
             

            Rebecca,
             
            I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to comment on St Columba’s early life. You have plenty of material there and it’s all very impressive.

            There had been a few attempts to introduce Christianity to Scotland prior to St Columba but eg St Ninian in Whithorn, but as I understand it, these communities had little influence with the average man and woman, and for all purposes Scotland was still a pagan country till St Columba arrived. He gets the credit for establishing the religion across Scotland.
             
            It’s certainly true that Iona is little more than a day’s sail from Donegal. The distance between Ireland and most of the Hebridean islands is quite small. As you probably know Islay, Jura, the Kintyre peninsula and the Ayrshire coast are normally clearly visible from Antrim. People were back and forth all the time, and still are to this day. I sailed over to Islay from Ballycastle in a yacht a couple of years back and it took about 4 hours. (There’s a chap in Ballycastle with a fast boat that regularly takes distillery workers back and forth between Bushmills and Islay*, together with anyone else who wants to go. That takes about an hour and a half). The distance from Inishowen in Donegal to Iona would be about 60 miles. I would say that with a fair wind you could get to Iona in about 8 hours in a sailing boat. St Columba initially established a religious outpost on the island of Oronsay (at the bottom end of Colonsay, and just north of Islay) but is said to have left for Iona because on a clear day he could still see Ireland and it made him homesick.
             
            The name Scotland and the Gaelic language came from the Scoti tribe in Co Antrim. Around 495AD they decided to expand their kingdom and sailed over to Dunadd (just south of modern Oban) where they established their capital and where their kings were crowned sitting on the Stone of Destiny which they are said to have brought with them from Ireland. Some claim it’s one half of the Blarney stone, now stuck on the outer wall of Blarney Castle. Who knows?  Anyway the Stone of Destiny has apparently made its way down through the ages and is the stone on which British monarchs are still crowned to this day. So Scotland was named after the Scoti, an Irish tribe. (Previously it was mostly called Alba). Prior to 495AD most of Scotland spoke a language pretty similar to Welsh (which of course is related to Irish anyway - the Celtic languages all share a common Bryonic origin). For reasons that are not entirely clear, welsh died out over a period of a couple of centuries, apparently without a fuss or written comment, and was replaced by Irish Gaelic though the scholars say that Scottish Gaelic today bears traces of Pictish influence in its syntax, and so now differs slightly from Irish Gaelic. I shall not argue with them.
             
            So from 495AD onwards the Picts were gradually replaced by the Scoti as rulers (insofar as there was organised rule) within Scotland. Again, like the language, the Picts just seem to have faded away without any great struggle or wars. They left their mark on a few Ogham stones and in a few place names eg Pitlochry and Pittenween, but otherwise just vanished. Presumably intermarried rather than died out.
             
            But you can see how from the establishment of Dalriada by the Scoti, and their domination of all the west coast and its islands, the stage was set for events over the next 1000 years. Not only did they all speak the same language, there was constant trade and movement of people between Ireland and Scotland. The concept of being Scottish or Irish is, to me, in some ways a much more recent classification, and I feel sure that the people in the Hebrides and Co Antrim at the periods we are talking about thought in much more localised terms and probably mostly saw themselves as part of a common heritage. Even after the Lordship of the Isles was declared forfeit to the Crown in the 1400s, the southern part of the domain was run by the McDonnells/MacDonalds at Finlagan on Islay, and that included Rathlin and the northern part of Co Antrim where the Scoti originated. Thus when the Irish Earls fled in 1607, many of the tenants on the McDonnell’s Scottish estates who were then encouraged to go to Antrim were going to lands their ancestors had occupied off and on for several thousand years. No sense of invasion or any big cultural change for them, I would have thought. Arguably, for some, it hasn’t changed that much to this day.
             
            Here’s a link that covers some of the history:
             
             
             
             
            Elwyn


            * Very properly there's massive argument about which is better - Irish whiskey or Scotch. Hopefully no-one will ever answer that question satisfactorily. I was amused to discover some time ago that some of the Scottish and Irish distilleries routinely swop staff, for the usual business reasons.  So some Bushmills Irish whiskey is made by Scots, and some of the Islay distilleries have people from Bushmills doing their manufacturing. I thought that added an extra amusing dimension to the rivalry.
             
             

            From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
            Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 16:37
            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
             
             
            Dear Elwyn,
             
                 Thank you so much! Living in the U.S. I have no clue if what I’m reading is correct. I will adjust my writing. I’m going to be working on Rathlin and the Lords of the Isles and my Alan of Galloway connection next. I’ve had too much going on to write lately, but, hope to get back to it soon.
             
                 I had looked at St. Columba, feel free to correct me.
            Saint Columba
                 Columba was born in a Gartan, County Donegal, Ireland family, about the year 521. His father was Fedhlimidh and was of the reigning clans in Ireland and British Dalriada. His mother, Eithne was descended from a provincial king.
                 Columba was baptized, at Tulach-Dubhglaise, now called Temple Douglas according to tradition, by the presbyter, Cruithnechan with the name Colum. Later cille was added to Colum. Cille meant “of the church”.
                 A youthful Columba or Columcille traveled to Moville. Leaving Moville as a Deacon, he travelled south to Leinster and studied with Gemman, an aged bard. At Clonard, a monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, came Columba as a student. He was sent to Etchen, the bishop of Clonfad, who ordained him as a preist.
                 Columba then entered a monastery near Dublin called Mobhi Claranech. It was here that others he had known at Clonard stayed also, S.S. Comgall, Ciaran, and Cainnech. In the year 544, a violent distemper among those there caused them to break up the community.
                 Columba headed north again. He founded the church in Derry (now called Londonderry) in the year 546, when he was 25. In 553 he founded the monastery of Durrow.
                 In 561 there was battle fought in Cooldrevny, Ireland, Columba may have instigated this battle. A synod met to excommunicate him, but the vote was not unanimous. He decided to sail for Scotland. It was within a day’s sail of his home territory.
                 Christianity was not yet the religion of the people there, especially the Picts, some of the Scots were Christian in name only. In 563, Columba and twelve of his attendants came to the island of Hy on the approval of King Conall, a relative of Columba’s. Iona was in both the jurisdiction of the Picts and the Scots. Columba worked diligently as a missionary for the conversion of these people. King Conall’s ministers were against Columba’s teachings on Christianity, but the people eventually became Christians.
                  Columba was granted possession of the island of Hy, by King Conall. The King died in the year 574. Aidan, the cousin to King Conall, succeeded him, and was inaugurated by Columba at Hy.
                 Baetan mac Cairill had imposed his authority over Dal Riata in Scotland and over the Isle of Man. He is described as king of Ireland and Scotland.
                 In the year 575, there was a meeting at Drumceatt. The Irish, Dal Fiatach, King Baetan mac Cairill had claimed the territory. Columba was at Drumceatt along with King Aidan, when the Scottish Dalriada was declared independent of Ireland.
                 The Irish continued to try to control Scottish Dalriada, even after Baetan mac Cairill died in 581.
            Irish Interests
                 Saint Columba was within a day’s sail from his homeland in Ireland and continued to be interested in the area’s politics.
                 In 579, there was a question about a church in Coleraine. Saint Columba’s tribe and Saint Comgall’s tribe were both claiming control there. The church there caused strife between Columba and Comgall.
                 In June of 585, Columba sailed for Ireland to visit Durrow, where he had founded the monastery in 553, and then west to Clonmacnois were he was warmly received.
             
                 In 587, there was a battle fought at Cuilfedha near Clonard in Ireland, the monastic seminary founded by Saint Finnian, who was still presiding over things there, when Columba as a student. Saint Columba is said to have been an interested party in this battle.
             
            Scotland
                 Columba spent his life sharing the Love of Jesus Christ with the Irish, the Picts, and the Scots. In 593, it seems Columba was near death. He declared the angels were sent to conduct his soul to paradise, however, he recovered and lived another four years. He died June 9th, 597, while on his knees at the altar.
                                 Rebecca McCarl Rogers
             
            Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:41 AM
            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
             
             
            Rebecca,
             
            The isle of Iona isn't anywhere near Elgin or Morayshire. It's on the west side of Scotland, off the island of Mull. (Iona was the base of St Columba's religious settlement in Scotland and has traditionally been used for the burial of some Kings and others of importance, so it's quite possible that's where Duncan was buried. Just that it's 150 miles west of Elgin.).
             
             
            Elwyn
             
            From: Jim Rogers Sr <jameserogers@...>
            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com; "James Rogers, Sr." <jameserogers@...>
            Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 15:06
            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
             
                I had been looking at this period of time recently while working on a book about my family. Malcolm III was my ancestor. This is what I found. Please let me know if anything is incorrect.
             
                 Duncan I Mac Crinan was born about 1001 in Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland, to Crinan the Abbot of Dunkeld and Bethoc. He was heir to the Scottish throne through his mother Bethoc or Beatrix the daughter of Malcolm II. He was the first in the House of Dunkeld line. He married Sybilla of Northumbria. His sons were King Malcolm III Canmore, King Donald III Bane, and Melmar. Duncan I Mac Crinan was King of Scots 1034-1040. He strengthened his hold over Strathclyde.  Macbeth of Moray had a claim to the kingdom also. Some say, Macbeth did not want Duncan I’s sons Malcolm and Donald to inherit and so Macbeth murdered Duncan I., or that Duncan I and Macbeth had been in a battle at Pitgaveny near Elgin where Duncan I was fatally wounded by Macbeth. Macbeth then became King.…..Duncan I’s  sons escaped Macbeth…… Duncan I Mac Crinan died August 14, 1041 in Bothganowan, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland. He was buried on the Isle of Iona, Elgin, Morayshire, Scotland.
                                                     Rebecca McCarl Rogers
             
             
             
            Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 7:23 AM
            Subject: RE: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
             
             
            That was a hard question as one had to ask ‘was Macbeth a real king’ to get the answer from a definitive source. 
            Enjoy your trip
            Mary
            From: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Crooks
            Sent: 15 August 2013 12:15
            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Fw: Confusion
             
            Subject: Confusion
            In todays newspaper in the historical section, there is a short article which says: 1057 Macbeth, King of Scotland  was killed ny Malcolm 111, son of Kind Duncan.
            MY QUESTION is who was King Duncan and what was he king of ?
            Here in chilly Maryland I woke to 52 degrees this a.m. whatever ghappened to "hot August ?
                                       Gordon


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