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Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

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  • Elwyn Soutter
      Fred,   The Gibson will (and most pre 1900 Irish wills) was destroyed in the 1922 fire in the Public Record Office in Dublin, during the civil war. All
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 16 4:50 AM
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      Fred,
       
      The Gibson will (and most pre 1900 Irish wills) was destroyed in the 1922 fire in the Public Record Office in Dublin, during the civil war. All that survives is the clerks transcript (which fortunately was kept in the Belfast Probate court) and which you can now see on the PRONI website. So PRONI won’t have any additional papers for this particular will.
       
      There can be many reasons why the final grant of probate is years after the death. A common one is that the deceased’s widow had a life interest in the property. That doesn’t appear to be the case here as I infer James Gibson was a widower. However I see that there was a trust arrangement for 2 daughters Mary Logan and Jane Gibson to have a house of their own so long as they remained unmarried. I suspect that’s the reason the final grant was delayed. It wouldn’t be possible to wind up the estate, so long as that trust was in force. Both women had probably married or at least left the property by 1893 though, so finally enabling the estate to be wound up.
       
       
      Elwyn


      From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
      To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 11:36
      Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

       
      Thanks Elwyn,

      It would also be appreciated if you could obtain a copy of the will of James Gibson of Loughconly who died April 27, 1885. For some reason the date of grant was delayed until 1893.

      Fred

      --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Fred,
      >  
      > I don’t know what the M in the margin
      > means. I have not seen it before. Whatever it meant, it was not in common use.
      >  
      > I’ll get you a copy of the will (and
      > anything else from the probate file that might provide you with additional
      > information).
      >  
      >  
      > Elwyn
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
      > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 22:52
      > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      > Thanks again Elwyn,
      >
      > The 1940 page is very helpful. From other information I have, it looks like the plots were kept in the family. Alexander had 8 children, 4 of which were daughters. The oldest, Mary married James Gourley (she's listed as landlord and he is occupant!). The second daughter, Agnes married Joseph Boyle (they came to Canada in 1911); so I am not sure who the Mrs Boyle is for plot 178 but there must be a connection. The third daughter, Margaret married Alex Scott (plot 180). I don't have any information on the fourth daughter Annie but maybe she married Samuel Graham??
      >
      > Do you know what the M in the margin signifies? Obviously plot 176 is better as the assessment is much more.
      >
      > I would love to have the full will. I was hoping to come to Ballymena some year soon and do more research. However if you would be so kind to get it and send it now, that would be greatly appreciated.
      >
      > It is nice that these more recent pages are typed. It makes them easier to read
      >
      > Fred
      >
      > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Fred,
      > >  
      > > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
      > > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
      > > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
      > > course, but seems a possibility.
      > >  
      > > The spelling of the name varies from
      > > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
      > > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
      > > trade name like Wright or Smith.
      > >  
      > > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
      > > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
      > > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
      > >
      > >  
      > >  
      > > Elwyn
      > >
      > >
      > > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
      > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
      > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > Thanks Elwyn,
      > >
      > > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
      > >
      > > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
      > >
      > > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
      > >
      > > Fred
      > > Oakville, Canada
      > >
      > > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Fred,
      > > >  
      > > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
      > > >  
      > > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
      > > >  
      > > > Elwyn
      > > >
      > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
      > > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
      > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
      > > >
      > > >  
      > > > Thanks Elwyn,
      > > >
      > > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
      > > >
      > > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
      > > >
      > > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
      > > >
      > > > Fred
      > > > Oakville, Canada
      > > >
      > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Fred,
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
      > > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
      > > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
      > > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
      > > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
      > > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
      > > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
      > > > > or street numbers).
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
      > > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
      > > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
      > > > > he arrived and left. (If heÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s not in the original valuation then itÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s
      > > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
      > > > > According to the publicity material, out of
      > > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
      > > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
      > > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
      > > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
      > > > > If you think Alexander might still have
      > > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
      > > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
      > > > > on-line though.
      > > > >
      > > > > Elwyn
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ________________________________
      > > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
      > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
      > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
      > > > > Elwyn,
      > > > >
      > > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
      > > > >
      > > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
      > > > >
      > > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
      > > > >
      > > > > Fred
      > > > > Oakville, Canada
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > cheers
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Shirlee
      > > > > > Wellington, NZ
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
      > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
      > > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Shirlee,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'¢â€žÂ¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Elwyn
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
      > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
      > > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Hi Elwyn
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Shirlee
      > > > > > Wellington, NZ
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > > > From: elwynsoutter
      > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
      > > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
      > > > > >
      > > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
      > > > > >
      > > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >



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