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Griffiths Revaluation Records

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  • elwynsoutter
    The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website: http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm You can use them
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 26, 2013
      The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:

      http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

      You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
    • Shirlee Cantwell
      ... From: elwynsoutter To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 26, 2013
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
        Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

         

        The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:

        http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

        You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).

      • Shirlee Cantwell
        Hi Elwyn I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 26, 2013
          Hi Elwyn
           
          I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E  In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill.  When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
           
          Shirlee
          Wellington, NZ
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
          Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

           

          The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:

          http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

          You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).

        • Elwyn Soutter
          Shirlee, That final volume is under ref VAL/12/B/3/16/D. Plot 22 is still shown as Samuel Dale through to 1930. It’s “in fee” and “LAP”, which means
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 27, 2013
            Shirlee,

            That final volume is under ref VAL/12/B/3/16/D. Plot 22 is still shown as Samuel Dale through to 1930. It’s “in fee” and “LAP”, which means he owned it outright and had bought it under Wyndham’s Land Act (ie with a Government mortgage etc).
             
            If you want to follow through beyond 1930, there is a further set of valuation records that run up to the 1960s in PRONI. They are not on-line (and I am not aware of any plans to put them on line in the near future). They are in the series VAL/3 at PRONI. I’ll have a quick look and see if I can find this one for you to see what changes followed. That should be fairly easy to check.
             
            It’s probably worth saying that Griffiths isn’t always 100% accurate. I have seen changes that I know were incorrect. For example a tenant still being shown on a property 6 or 7 years after he/she died. And some of the dates are often out by a year or two. Presumably some information was just taken on trust or estimated.  I can imagine a conversation with a Griffiths clerk like this: Q “When did old Mrs McLaughlin die then?” A: “Oh, about 2 to 3 years ago.” And so a year went into a Griffiths notebook. If it was slightly wrong, no-one was likely to challenge it.


            Elwyn


            From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@...>
            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

             
            Hi Elwyn
             
            I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E  In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill.  When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
             
            Shirlee
            Wellington, NZ
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
            Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

             
            The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:

            http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

            You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).



          • Elwyn Soutter
            Shirlee,   I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 27, 2013
              Shirlee,
               
              I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
               
              Elwyn


              From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@...>
              To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
              Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

               
              Hi Elwyn
               
              I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E  In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill.  When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
               
              Shirlee
              Wellington, NZ
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
              Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

               
              The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:

              http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

              You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).



            • Shirlee Cantwell
              Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother. cheers Shirlee Wellington, NZ ... From: Elwyn
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 27, 2013
                
                Thanks Elwyn.  Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                 
                cheers
                 
                Shirlee
                Wellington, NZ
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

                 

                Shirlee,
                 
                I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                 
                Elwyn


                From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@...>
                To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

                 
                Hi Elwyn
                 
                I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E  In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill.  When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                 
                Shirlee
                Wellington, NZ
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records

                 
                The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:

                http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm

                You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).



              • Fred
                Elwyn, You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work?? I am trying to find Alexander
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 27, 2013
                  Elwyn,

                  You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??

                  I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.

                  Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated

                  Fred
                  Oakville, Canada

                  --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                  >
                  > cheers
                  >
                  > Shirlee
                  > Wellington, NZ
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Elwyn Soutter
                  > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Shirlee,
                  >
                  > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                  >
                  > Elwyn
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@...>
                  > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                  > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Elwyn
                  >
                  > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                  >
                  > Shirlee
                  > Wellington, NZ
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: elwynsoutter
                  > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                  > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                  >
                  > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                  >
                  > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                  >
                • Elwyn Soutter
                  Fred, The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander s name. What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 28, 2013
                    Fred,

                    The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name. What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc, and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names or street numbers).
                     
                    Alexander Suter remained the tenant all through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                     
                    According to the publicity material, out of some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned. It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                     
                    If you think Alexander might still have been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not on-line though.

                    Elwyn


                    From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                    To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                    Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                     
                    Elwyn,

                    You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??

                    I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.

                    Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated

                    Fred
                    Oakville, Canada

                    --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                    >
                    > cheers
                    >
                    > Shirlee
                    > Wellington, NZ
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Elwyn Soutter
                    > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Shirlee,
                    >
                    > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                    >
                    > Elwyn
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@...>
                    > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                    > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Elwyn
                    >
                    > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                    >
                    > Shirlee
                    > Wellington, NZ
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: elwynsoutter
                    > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                    > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                    >
                    > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                    >
                    > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                    >



                  • Fred
                    Thanks Elwyn, That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 28, 2013
                      Thanks Elwyn,

                      That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                      You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                      Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                      Fred
                      Oakville, Canada

                      --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Fred,
                      >
                      >
                      > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                      > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                      > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                      > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                      > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                      > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                      > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                      > or street numbers).
                      >  
                      > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                      > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                      > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                      > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                      >  
                      > According to the publicity material, out of
                      > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                      > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                      > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                      > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                      >  
                      > If you think Alexander might still have
                      > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                      > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                      > on-line though.
                      >
                      > Elwyn
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                      > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                      > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Elwyn,
                      >
                      > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                      >
                      > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                      >
                      > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                      >
                      > Fred
                      > Oakville, Canada
                      >
                      > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                      > >
                      > > cheers
                      > >
                      > > Shirlee
                      > > Wellington, NZ
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                      > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Shirlee,
                      > >
                      > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                      > >
                      > > Elwyn
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                      > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                      > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Elwyn
                      > >
                      > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                      > >
                      > > Shirlee
                      > > Wellington, NZ
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: elwynsoutter
                      > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                      > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                      > >
                      > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                      > >
                      > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                      > >
                      >
                    • Elwyn Soutter
                      Fred,   I ll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 29, 2013
                        Fred,
                         
                        I'll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and then I go to Edinburgh for a few days so it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the botom of this). Regarding the acquisition of the property, yes it would show in a previous book. I can tell you he didn't own the property (at least not in the volume you have seen). He rented and his landlord's name is in the right hand column.
                         
                        Elwyn

                        From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                        To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                        Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                         
                        Thanks Elwyn,

                        That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                        You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                        Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                        Fred
                        Oakville, Canada

                        --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Fred,
                        >
                        >
                        > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                        > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                        > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                        > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                        > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                        > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                        > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                        > or street numbers).
                        >  
                        > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                        > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                        > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                        > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                        >  
                        > According to the publicity material, out of
                        > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                        > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                        > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                        > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                        >  
                        > If you think Alexander might still have
                        > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                        > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                        > on-line though.
                        >
                        > Elwyn
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                        > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                        > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        > Elwyn,
                        >
                        > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                        >
                        > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                        >
                        > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                        >
                        > Fred
                        > Oakville, Canada
                        >
                        > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                        > >
                        > > cheers
                        > >
                        > > Shirlee
                        > > Wellington, NZ
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                        > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Shirlee,
                        > >
                        > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                        > >
                        > > Elwyn
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                        > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                        > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                        > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Elwyn
                        > >
                        > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                        > >
                        > > Shirlee
                        > > Wellington, NZ
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: elwynsoutter
                        > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                        > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                        > >
                        > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                        > >
                        > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                        > >
                        >

                      • Gordon Crooks
                        Elwyn: Your msg. to Fred brought back memories. In 1989 when my son graduated from high school I took the whole family to Europe for a month. Well we arrived
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 29, 2013
                          
                          Elwyn: Your msg. to Fred brought back memories. In 1989 when my son graduated from high school I took the whole family to Europe for a month. Well we arrived in Edinburgh and I opened a local telephone book to see if any Crooks were listed, instead I almost fainted at the number of pages of them and as a result when we got back home abandoned my desire to trace my family. Here in the USA the name Crooks is fairly rare, there are more of us in that telephone book then the entire USA..
                           
                                                                                  Gordon
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:07 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                           

                          Fred,
                           
                          I'll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and then I go to Edinburgh for a few days so it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the botom of this). Regarding the acquisition of the property, yes it would show in a previous book. I can tell you he didn't own the property (at least not in the volume you have seen). He rented and his landlord's name is in the right hand column.
                           
                          Elwyn

                          From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                          To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                          Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                           
                          Thanks Elwyn,

                          That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                          You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                          Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                          Fred
                          Oakville, Canada

                          --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Fred,
                          >
                          >
                          > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                          > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                          > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                          > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                          > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                          > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                          > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                          > or street numbers).
                          >  
                          > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                          > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                          > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                          > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                          >  
                          > According to the publicity material, out of
                          > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                          > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                          > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                          > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                          >  
                          > If you think Alexander might still have
                          > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                          > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                          > on-line though.
                          >
                          > Elwyn
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                          > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                          > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          > Elwyn,
                          >
                          > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                          >
                          > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                          >
                          > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                          >
                          > Fred
                          > Oakville, Canada
                          >
                          > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                          > >
                          > > cheers
                          > >
                          > > Shirlee
                          > > Wellington, NZ
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                          > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                          > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Shirlee,
                          > >
                          > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                          > >
                          > > Elwyn
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                          > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                          > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Elwyn
                          > >
                          > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                          > >
                          > > Shirlee
                          > > Wellington, NZ
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: elwynsoutter
                          > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                          > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                          > >
                          > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                          > >
                          > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                          > >
                          >

                          No virus found in this message.
                          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6212 - Release Date: 03/29/13

                        • C J
                          Are you saying there are a lot of Crooks in Scotland, Gordon? Cheers, Camille in Maryland Searching in Co. Down: GRANT, MCCONNEL/MCCONNELL, PARKS/PARKE/PARK,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 29, 2013
                            Are you saying there are a lot of Crooks in Scotland, Gordon? *;) winking

                            Cheers,

                            Camille in Maryland

                            Searching in Co. Down: GRANT, MCCONNEL/MCCONNELL, PARKS/PARKE/PARK, PAYNE/PAINE
                            Suspected Surnames in Co. Down: AGNEW, BRICKMAN, CUNNINGHAM, DUGGAN, GOODWIN, HANNA, HARRIS, IRELAND, MCGIBBEN, MCGIRL, MCMULLAN, MEANEY, PRESTON, TULLEY, others

                            Suspected Surnames in Belfast: LENNON, LOWRY, PAYNE

                            Unknown locations in Ireland: CHILCOTT, DEVLIN, FARRELL, GUIN/GWYN/GWYNNE/QUINN, HERON, LEADEN/LEDEN/LYDEN, LINDSAY, MULHEARN, O'NEILL, SCOTT, STEENSEN, WARD


                            From: Gordon Crooks <gordoncrooks@...>
                            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:19 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                             
                            
                            Elwyn: Your msg. to Fred brought back memories. In 1989 when my son graduated from high school I took the whole family to Europe for a month. Well we arrived in Edinburgh and I opened a local telephone book to see if any Crooks were listed, instead I almost fainted at the number of pages of them and as a result when we got back home abandoned my desire to trace my family. Here in the USA the name Crooks is fairly rare, there are more of us in that telephone book then the entire USA..
                             
                                                                                    Gordon
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:07 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                             
                            Fred,
                             
                            I'll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and then I go to Edinburgh for a few days so it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the botom of this). Regarding the acquisition of the property, yes it would show in a previous book. I can tell you he didn't own the property (at least not in the volume you have seen). He rented and his landlord's name is in the right hand column.
                             
                            Elwyn

                            From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                            Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                             
                            Thanks Elwyn,

                            That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                            You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                            Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                            Fred
                            Oakville, Canada

                            --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Fred,
                            >
                            >
                            > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                            > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                            > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                            > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                            > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                            > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                            > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                            > or street numbers).
                            >  
                            > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                            > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                            > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                            > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                            >  
                            > According to the publicity material, out of
                            > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                            > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                            > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                            > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                            >  
                            > If you think Alexander might still have
                            > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                            > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                            > on-line though.
                            >
                            > Elwyn
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                            > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                            > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            > Elwyn,
                            >
                            > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                            >
                            > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                            >
                            > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                            >
                            > Fred
                            > Oakville, Canada
                            >
                            > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                            > >
                            > > cheers
                            > >
                            > > Shirlee
                            > > Wellington, NZ
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                            > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Shirlee,
                            > >
                            > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                            > >
                            > > Elwyn
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                            > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                            > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi Elwyn
                            > >
                            > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                            > >
                            > > Shirlee
                            > > Wellington, NZ
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: elwynsoutter
                            > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                            > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                            > >
                            > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                            > >
                            > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                            > >
                            >

                            No virus found in this message.
                            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6212 - Release Date: 03/29/13


                          • Elwyn Soutter
                            Gordon,   I think your expeience is quite common. I helped a lady recently do her family tree. The surname was Linton and a bit like you, she said there were
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 30, 2013
                              Gordon,
                               
                              I think your expeience is quite common. I helped a lady recently do her family tree. The surname was Linton and a bit like you, she said there were just 4 of them in the state of Michigan, and she was related to all of them. So she too was amazed to look in the Northern Ireland phone book to see pages of them. (And if she had looked in a Scottish phone book she'd have found pages more!).
                               
                              At least it tells you something about your ancestry. If your family are Presbyterian, with ancestors from Co. Antrim who have a common Scottish name, then you have three separate indicators of your origins and can conclude with 99% certainty your family came over to Antrim from Scotland, most probably in the 1600s.
                               
                               
                              Elwyn

                              From: Gordon Crooks <gordoncrooks@...>
                              To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, 29 March 2013, 21:19
                              Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                               
                              
                              Elwyn: Your msg. to Fred brought back memories. In 1989 when my son graduated from high school I took the whole family to Europe for a month. Well we arrived in Edinburgh and I opened a local telephone book to see if any Crooks were listed, instead I almost fainted at the number of pages of them and as a result when we got back home abandoned my desire to trace my family. Here in the USA the name Crooks is fairly rare, there are more of us in that telephone book then the entire USA..
                               
                                                                                      Gordon
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:07 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                               
                              Fred,
                               
                              I'll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and then I go to Edinburgh for a few days so it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the botom of this). Regarding the acquisition of the property, yes it would show in a previous book. I can tell you he didn't own the property (at least not in the volume you have seen). He rented and his landlord's name is in the right hand column.
                               
                              Elwyn

                              From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                              To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                              Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                               
                              Thanks Elwyn, That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything. You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book? Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested. Fred Oakville, Canada --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote: > > Fred, > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name. > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc, > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names > or street numbers). >   > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.). >   > According to the publicity material, out of > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned. > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI > intend to put them on eventually where they can. >   > If you think Alexander might still have > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not > on-line though. > > Elwyn > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Fred <fredpincock@...> > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01 > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records > > >   > Elwyn, > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work?? > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date. > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated > > Fred > Oakville, Canada > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother. > > > > cheers > > > > Shirlee > > Wellington, NZ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Elwyn Soutter > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records > > > > > > > > > > Shirlee, > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office. > > > > Elwyn > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@> > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16 > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records > > > > > > > > > > Hi Elwyn > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm. > > > > Shirlee > > Wellington, NZ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: elwynsoutter > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records > > > > > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website: > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI). > > >
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                            • Gordon Crooks
                              Camille O watch out I have Parks in my line, so we might be related !!!!! Gordon ... From: C J To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com ; Camille JULIANA Sent:
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 30, 2013
                                
                                Camille O  watch out I have Parks in my line, so we might be related !!!!!
                                 
                                                                     Gordon
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: C J
                                Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:38 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                 

                                Are you saying there are a lot of Crooks in Scotland, Gordon? *;) winking

                                Cheers,

                                Camille in Maryland

                                Searching in Co. Down: GRANT, MCCONNEL/MCCONNELL, PARKS/PARKE/PARK, PAYNE/PAINE
                                Suspected Surnames in Co. Down: AGNEW, BRICKMAN, CUNNINGHAM, DUGGAN, GOODWIN, HANNA, HARRIS, IRELAND, MCGIBBEN, MCGIRL, MCMULLAN, MEANEY, PRESTON, TULLEY, others

                                Suspected Surnames in Belfast: LENNON, LOWRY, PAYNE

                                Unknown locations in Ireland: CHILCOTT, DEVLIN, FARRELL, GUIN/GWYN/GWYNNE/QUINN, HERON, LEADEN/LEDEN/LYDEN, LINDSAY, MULHEARN, O'NEILL, SCOTT, STEENSEN, WARD


                                From: Gordon Crooks <gordoncrooks@...>
                                To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                 
                                
                                Elwyn: Your msg. to Fred brought back memories. In 1989 when my son graduated from high school I took the whole family to Europe for a month. Well we arrived in Edinburgh and I opened a local telephone book to see if any Crooks were listed, instead I almost fainted at the number of pages of them and as a result when we got back home abandoned my desire to trace my family. Here in the USA the name Crooks is fairly rare, there are more of us in that telephone book then the entire USA..
                                 
                                                                                        Gordon
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:07 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                 
                                Fred,
                                 
                                I'll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and then I go to Edinburgh for a few days so it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the botom of this). Regarding the acquisition of the property, yes it would show in a previous book. I can tell you he didn't own the property (at least not in the volume you have seen). He rented and his landlord's name is in the right hand column.
                                 
                                Elwyn

                                From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                 
                                Thanks Elwyn,

                                That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                                You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                                Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                                Fred
                                Oakville, Canada

                                --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Fred,
                                >
                                >
                                > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                > or street numbers).
                                >  
                                > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                >  
                                > According to the publicity material, out of
                                > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                >  
                                > If you think Alexander might still have
                                > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                > on-line though.
                                >
                                > Elwyn
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > Elwyn,
                                >
                                > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                >
                                > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                >
                                > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                >
                                > Fred
                                > Oakville, Canada
                                >
                                > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                > >
                                > > cheers
                                > >
                                > > Shirlee
                                > > Wellington, NZ
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Shirlee,
                                > >
                                > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                > >
                                > > Elwyn
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi Elwyn
                                > >
                                > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                > >
                                > > Shirlee
                                > > Wellington, NZ
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: elwynsoutter
                                > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                > >
                                > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                > >
                                > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                > >
                                >

                                No virus found in this message.
                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6212 - Release Date: 03/29/13


                                No virus found in this message.
                                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6212 - Release Date: 03/29/13

                              • C J
                                ... so we might be related !!!!! ... Gordon ... PM ... DUGGAN, GOODWIN, HANNA, HARRIS, IRELAND, MCGIBBEN, MCGIRL, MCMULLAN, MEANEY, PRESTON, TULLEY, others
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 30, 2013
                                  :)


                                  From: Gordon Crooks <gordoncrooks@...>
                                  To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2013 7:56 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                   
                                  
                                  Camille O  watch out I have Parks in my line, so we might be related !!!!!
                                   
                                                                       Gordon
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: C J
                                  Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:38 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                   
                                  Are you saying there are a lot of Crooks in Scotland, Gordon? *;) winking

                                  Cheers,

                                  Camille in Maryland

                                  Searching in Co. Down: GRANT, MCCONNEL/MCCONNELL, PARKS/PARKE/PARK, PAYNE/PAINE
                                  Suspected Surnames in Co. Down: AGNEW, BRICKMAN, CUNNINGHAM, DUGGAN, GOODWIN, HANNA, HARRIS, IRELAND, MCGIBBEN, MCGIRL, MCMULLAN, MEANEY, PRESTON, TULLEY, others

                                  Suspected Surnames in Belfast: LENNON, LOWRY, PAYNE

                                  Unknown locations in Ireland: CHILCOTT, DEVLIN, FARRELL, GUIN/GWYN/GWYNNE/QUINN, HERON, LEADEN/LEDEN/LYDEN, LINDSAY, MULHEARN, O'NEILL, SCOTT, STEENSEN, WARD


                                  From: Gordon Crooks <gordoncrooks@...>
                                  To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:19 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                   
                                  
                                  Elwyn: Your msg. to Fred brought back memories. In 1989 when my son graduated from high school I took the whole family to Europe for a month. Well we arrived in Edinburgh and I opened a local telephone book to see if any Crooks were listed, instead I almost fainted at the number of pages of them and as a result when we got back home abandoned my desire to trace my family. Here in the USA the name Crooks is fairly rare, there are more of us in that telephone book then the entire USA..
                                   
                                                                                          Gordon
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 2:07 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                   
                                  Fred,
                                   
                                  I'll have  a look at the books themselves, next time I am in PRONI to see if I can find out what the full story is. (I am in Dorset for a week and then I go to Edinburgh for a few days so it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I can get to the botom of this). Regarding the acquisition of the property, yes it would show in a previous book. I can tell you he didn't own the property (at least not in the volume you have seen). He rented and his landlord's name is in the right hand column.
                                   
                                  Elwyn

                                  From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                  To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                  Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                   
                                  Thanks Elwyn,

                                  That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                                  You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                                  Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                                  Fred
                                  Oakville, Canada

                                  --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Fred,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                  > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                  > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                  > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                  > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                  > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                  > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                  > or street numbers).
                                  >  
                                  > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                  > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                  > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                  > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                  >  
                                  > According to the publicity material, out of
                                  > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                  > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                  > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                  > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                  >  
                                  > If you think Alexander might still have
                                  > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                  > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                  > on-line though.
                                  >
                                  > Elwyn
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                  > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                  > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > Elwyn,
                                  >
                                  > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                  >
                                  > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                  >
                                  > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                  >
                                  > Fred
                                  > Oakville, Canada
                                  >
                                  > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                  > >
                                  > > cheers
                                  > >
                                  > > Shirlee
                                  > > Wellington, NZ
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                  > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Shirlee,
                                  > >
                                  > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                  > >
                                  > > Elwyn
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                  > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Elwyn
                                  > >
                                  > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                  > >
                                  > > Shirlee
                                  > > Wellington, NZ
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: elwynsoutter
                                  > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                  > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                  > >
                                  > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                  > >
                                  >

                                  No virus found in this message.
                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6212 - Release Date: 03/29/13


                                  No virus found in this message.
                                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  Version: 2013.0.3267 / Virus Database: 3161/6212 - Release Date: 03/29/13


                                • Elwyn Soutter
                                  Fred,   I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 15, 2013
                                    Fred,
                                     
                                    I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                     
                                    I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                     
                                    Elwyn

                                    From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                    To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                    Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                     
                                    Thanks Elwyn,

                                    That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.

                                    You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?

                                    Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.

                                    Fred
                                    Oakville, Canada

                                    --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Fred,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                    > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                    > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                    > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                    > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                    > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                    > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                    > or street numbers).
                                    >  
                                    > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                    > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                    > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                    > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                    >  
                                    > According to the publicity material, out of
                                    > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                    > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                    > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                    > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                    >  
                                    > If you think Alexander might still have
                                    > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                    > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                    > on-line though.
                                    >
                                    > Elwyn
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                    > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                    > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    > Elwyn,
                                    >
                                    > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                    >
                                    > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                    >
                                    > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                    >
                                    > Fred
                                    > Oakville, Canada
                                    >
                                    > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                    > >
                                    > > cheers
                                    > >
                                    > > Shirlee
                                    > > Wellington, NZ
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                    > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Shirlee,
                                    > >
                                    > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                    > >
                                    > > Elwyn
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                    > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Elwyn
                                    > >
                                    > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                    > >
                                    > > Shirlee
                                    > > Wellington, NZ
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: elwynsoutter
                                    > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                    > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                    > >
                                    > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                    > >
                                    >

                                  • Fred
                                    Thanks Elwyn, That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can t seem to find it. In
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 15, 2013
                                      Thanks Elwyn,

                                      That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.

                                      His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.

                                      Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.

                                      Fred
                                      Oakville, Canada


                                      --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Fred,
                                      >  
                                      > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                      >  
                                      > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                      >  
                                      > Elwyn
                                      >
                                      > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                      > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                      > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > Thanks Elwyn,
                                      >
                                      > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                      >
                                      > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                      >
                                      > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                      >
                                      > Fred
                                      > Oakville, Canada
                                      >
                                      > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Fred,
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                      > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                      > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                      > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                      > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                      > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                      > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                      > > or street numbers).
                                      > >  
                                      > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                      > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                      > > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                      > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                      > >  
                                      > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                      > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                      > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                      > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                      > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                      > >  
                                      > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                      > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                      > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                      > > on-line though.
                                      > >
                                      > > Elwyn
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                      > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                      > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >  
                                      > > Elwyn,
                                      > >
                                      > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                      > >
                                      > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                      > >
                                      > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                      > >
                                      > > Fred
                                      > > Oakville, Canada
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > cheers
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Shirlee
                                      > > > Wellington, NZ
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                      > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Shirlee,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Elwyn
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                      > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hi Elwyn
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Shirlee
                                      > > > Wellington, NZ
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                      > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                      > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                      > > >
                                      > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Elwyn Soutter
                                      Fred,   Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 15, 2013
                                      Fred,
                                       
                                      Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of course, but seems a possibility.
                                       
                                      The spelling of the name varies from Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                       
                                      There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                       
                                       
                                      Elwyn


                                      PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?


                                      From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                      To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                      Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                       
                                      Thanks Elwyn,

                                      That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.

                                      His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.

                                      Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.

                                      Fred
                                      Oakville, Canada

                                      --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Fred,
                                      >  
                                      > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                      >  
                                      > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                      >  
                                      > Elwyn
                                      >
                                      > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                      > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                      > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > Thanks Elwyn,
                                      >
                                      > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                      >
                                      > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                      >
                                      > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                      >
                                      > Fred
                                      > Oakville, Canada
                                      >
                                      > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Fred,
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                      > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                      > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                      > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                      > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                      > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                      > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                      > > or street numbers).
                                      > >  
                                      > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                      > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                      > > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                      > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                      > >  
                                      > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                      > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                      > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                      > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                      > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                      > >  
                                      > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                      > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                      > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                      > > on-line though.
                                      > >
                                      > > Elwyn
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ________________________________
                                      > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                      > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                      > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >  
                                      > > Elwyn,
                                      > >
                                      > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                      > >
                                      > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                      > >
                                      > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                      > >
                                      > > Fred
                                      > > Oakville, Canada
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > cheers
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Shirlee
                                      > > > Wellington, NZ
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                      > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Shirlee,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. There’s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Elwyn
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                      > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hi Elwyn
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Shirlee
                                      > > > Wellington, NZ
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                      > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                      > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                      > > >
                                      > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >



                                    • Fred
                                      Thanks again Elwyn, The 1940 page is very helpful. From other information I have, it looks like the plots were kept in the family. Alexander had 8 children,
                                      Message 19 of 24 , Apr 15, 2013
                                        Thanks again Elwyn,

                                        The 1940 page is very helpful. From other information I have, it looks like the plots were kept in the family. Alexander had 8 children, 4 of which were daughters. The oldest, Mary married James Gourley (she's listed as landlord and he is occupant!). The second daughter, Agnes married Joseph Boyle (they came to Canada in 1911); so I am not sure who the Mrs Boyle is for plot 178 but there must be a connection. The third daughter, Margaret married Alex Scott (plot 180). I don't have any information on the fourth daughter Annie but maybe she married Samuel Graham??

                                        Do you know what the M in the margin signifies? Obviously plot 176 is better as the assessment is much more.

                                        I would love to have the full will. I was hoping to come to Ballymena some year soon and do more research. However if you would be so kind to get it and send it now, that would be greatly appreciated.

                                        It is nice that these more recent pages are typed. It makes them easier to read

                                        Fred

                                        --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Fred,
                                        >  
                                        > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
                                        > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
                                        > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
                                        > course, but seems a possibility.
                                        >  
                                        > The spelling of the name varies from
                                        > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
                                        > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
                                        > trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                        >  
                                        > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
                                        > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
                                        > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >  
                                        > Elwyn
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                        > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                        > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > Thanks Elwyn,
                                        >
                                        > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
                                        >
                                        > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
                                        >
                                        > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
                                        >
                                        > Fred
                                        > Oakville, Canada
                                        >
                                        > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Fred,
                                        > >  
                                        > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                        > >  
                                        > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                        > >  
                                        > > Elwyn
                                        > >
                                        > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                        > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                        > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                        > >
                                        > >  
                                        > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                        > >
                                        > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                        > >
                                        > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                        > >
                                        > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                        > >
                                        > > Fred
                                        > > Oakville, Canada
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Fred,
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                        > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                        > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                        > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                        > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                        > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                        > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                        > > > or street numbers).
                                        > > >  
                                        > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                        > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                        > > > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                        > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                        > > >  
                                        > > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                        > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                        > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                        > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                        > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                        > > >  
                                        > > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                        > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                        > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                        > > > on-line though.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Elwyn
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ________________________________
                                        > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                        > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                        > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >  
                                        > > > Elwyn,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Fred
                                        > > > Oakville, Canada
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > cheers
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Shirlee
                                        > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                        > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Shirlee,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Elwyn
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                        > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hi Elwyn
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Shirlee
                                        > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                        > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                        > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Fred
                                        Elwyn I hope I am not bothering you too much. I realize there are lots of different ways to spell Sutter/Soutter. However at least in 1878 when Alexander
                                        Message 20 of 24 , Apr 15, 2013
                                          Elwyn

                                          I hope I am not bothering you too much. I realize there are lots of different ways to spell Sutter/Soutter. However at least in 1878 when Alexander married Ann Eliza Francey (July 27, 1878) he and his father, John used the spelling Sutter (or at least that is what the cleric wrote on the marriage certificate) from 1st Presbyterian Church in Ballymena. It shows the Abode as Ballycraigy. I have tried to find them in the Valuation Revisions under that spelling as well as 'Ballycreggy' but no luck. Do you have any other suggestions for spelling of the townland?

                                          Best regards, Fred

                                          --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Fred,
                                          >  
                                          > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
                                          > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
                                          > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
                                          > course, but seems a possibility.
                                          >  
                                          > The spelling of the name varies from
                                          > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
                                          > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
                                          > trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                          >  
                                          > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
                                          > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
                                          > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >  
                                          > Elwyn
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                          > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                          > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > Thanks Elwyn,
                                          >
                                          > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
                                          >
                                          > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
                                          >
                                          > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
                                          >
                                          > Fred
                                          > Oakville, Canada
                                          >
                                          > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Fred,
                                          > >  
                                          > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                          > >  
                                          > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                          > >  
                                          > > Elwyn
                                          > >
                                          > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                          > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                          > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                          > >
                                          > >  
                                          > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                          > >
                                          > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                          > >
                                          > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                          > >
                                          > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                          > >
                                          > > Fred
                                          > > Oakville, Canada
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Fred,
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                          > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                          > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                          > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                          > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                          > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                          > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                          > > > or street numbers).
                                          > > >  
                                          > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                          > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                          > > > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                          > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                          > > >  
                                          > > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                          > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                          > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                          > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                          > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                          > > >  
                                          > > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                          > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                          > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                          > > > on-line though.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Elwyn
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ________________________________
                                          > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                          > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                          > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >  
                                          > > > Elwyn,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Fred
                                          > > > Oakville, Canada
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > cheers
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Shirlee
                                          > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                          > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Shirlee,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Elwyn
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                          > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                          > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                          > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Hi Elwyn
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Shirlee
                                          > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                          > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                          > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Elwyn Soutter
                                          Fred,   I don’t know what the M in the margin means. I have not seen it before. Whatever it meant, it was not in common use.   I’ll get you a copy of the
                                          Message 21 of 24 , Apr 16, 2013
                                            Fred,
                                             
                                            I don’t know what the M in the margin means. I have not seen it before. Whatever it meant, it was not in common use.
                                             
                                            I’ll get you a copy of the will (and anything else from the probate file that might provide you with additional information).
                                             
                                             
                                            Elwyn


                                            From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                            To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 22:52
                                            Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                             
                                            Thanks again Elwyn,

                                            The 1940 page is very helpful. From other information I have, it looks like the plots were kept in the family. Alexander had 8 children, 4 of which were daughters. The oldest, Mary married James Gourley (she's listed as landlord and he is occupant!). The second daughter, Agnes married Joseph Boyle (they came to Canada in 1911); so I am not sure who the Mrs Boyle is for plot 178 but there must be a connection. The third daughter, Margaret married Alex Scott (plot 180). I don't have any information on the fourth daughter Annie but maybe she married Samuel Graham??

                                            Do you know what the M in the margin signifies? Obviously plot 176 is better as the assessment is much more.

                                            I would love to have the full will. I was hoping to come to Ballymena some year soon and do more research. However if you would be so kind to get it and send it now, that would be greatly appreciated.

                                            It is nice that these more recent pages are typed. It makes them easier to read

                                            Fred

                                            --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Fred,
                                            >  
                                            > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
                                            > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
                                            > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
                                            > course, but seems a possibility.
                                            >  
                                            > The spelling of the name varies from
                                            > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
                                            > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
                                            > trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                            >  
                                            > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
                                            > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
                                            > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            >  
                                            > Elwyn
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                            > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                            > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            > Thanks Elwyn,
                                            >
                                            > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
                                            >
                                            > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
                                            >
                                            > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
                                            >
                                            > Fred
                                            > Oakville, Canada
                                            >
                                            > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Fred,
                                            > >  
                                            > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                            > >  
                                            > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                            > >  
                                            > > Elwyn
                                            > >
                                            > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                            > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                            > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                            > >
                                            > >  
                                            > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                            > >
                                            > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                            > >
                                            > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                            > >
                                            > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                            > >
                                            > > Fred
                                            > > Oakville, Canada
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Fred,
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                            > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                            > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                            > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                            > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                            > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                            > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                            > > > or street numbers).
                                            > > >  
                                            > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                            > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                            > > > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                            > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                            > > >  
                                            > > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                            > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                            > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                            > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                            > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                            > > >  
                                            > > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                            > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                            > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                            > > > on-line though.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Elwyn
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ________________________________
                                            > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                            > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                            > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >  
                                            > > > Elwyn,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Fred
                                            > > > Oakville, Canada
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > cheers
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Shirlee
                                            > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                            > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                            > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Shirlee,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Elwyn
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                            > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                            > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                            > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hi Elwyn
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Shirlee
                                            > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                            > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                            > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >



                                          • Fred
                                            Thanks Elwyn, It would also be appreciated if you could obtain a copy of the will of James Gibson of Loughconly who died April 27, 1885. For some reason the
                                            Message 22 of 24 , Apr 16, 2013
                                              Thanks Elwyn,

                                              It would also be appreciated if you could obtain a copy of the will of James Gibson of Loughconly who died April 27, 1885. For some reason the date of grant was delayed until 1893.

                                              Fred

                                              --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Fred,
                                              >  
                                              > I don’t know what the M in the margin
                                              > means. I have not seen it before. Whatever it meant, it was not in common use.
                                              >  
                                              > I’ll get you a copy of the will (and
                                              > anything else from the probate file that might provide you with additional
                                              > information).
                                              >  
                                              >  
                                              > Elwyn
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                              > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 22:52
                                              > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              > Thanks again Elwyn,
                                              >
                                              > The 1940 page is very helpful. From other information I have, it looks like the plots were kept in the family. Alexander had 8 children, 4 of which were daughters. The oldest, Mary married James Gourley (she's listed as landlord and he is occupant!). The second daughter, Agnes married Joseph Boyle (they came to Canada in 1911); so I am not sure who the Mrs Boyle is for plot 178 but there must be a connection. The third daughter, Margaret married Alex Scott (plot 180). I don't have any information on the fourth daughter Annie but maybe she married Samuel Graham??
                                              >
                                              > Do you know what the M in the margin signifies? Obviously plot 176 is better as the assessment is much more.
                                              >
                                              > I would love to have the full will. I was hoping to come to Ballymena some year soon and do more research. However if you would be so kind to get it and send it now, that would be greatly appreciated.
                                              >
                                              > It is nice that these more recent pages are typed. It makes them easier to read
                                              >
                                              > Fred
                                              >
                                              > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Fred,
                                              > >  
                                              > > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
                                              > > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
                                              > > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
                                              > > course, but seems a possibility.
                                              > >  
                                              > > The spelling of the name varies from
                                              > > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
                                              > > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
                                              > > trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                              > >  
                                              > > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
                                              > > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
                                              > > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                              > >
                                              > >  
                                              > >  
                                              > > Elwyn
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ________________________________
                                              > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                              > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                              > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >  
                                              > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                              > >
                                              > > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
                                              > >
                                              > > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
                                              > >
                                              > > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
                                              > >
                                              > > Fred
                                              > > Oakville, Canada
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Fred,
                                              > > >  
                                              > > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                              > > >  
                                              > > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                              > > >  
                                              > > > Elwyn
                                              > > >
                                              > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                              > > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                              > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              > > >
                                              > > >  
                                              > > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Fred
                                              > > > Oakville, Canada
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Fred,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                              > > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                              > > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                              > > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                              > > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                              > > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                              > > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                              > > > > or street numbers).
                                              > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                              > > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                              > > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                              > > > > he arrived and left. (If heÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s not in the original valuation then itÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s
                                              > > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                              > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                              > > > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                              > > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                              > > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                              > > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                              > > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                              > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                              > > > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                              > > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                              > > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                              > > > > on-line though.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Elwyn
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ________________________________
                                              > > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                              > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                              > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                              > > > > Elwyn,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Fred
                                              > > > > Oakville, Canada
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > cheers
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Shirlee
                                              > > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                              > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                              > > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Shirlee,
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'¢â€žÂ¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Elwyn
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                              > > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                              > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                              > > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Hi Elwyn
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Shirlee
                                              > > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                              > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                              > > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Elwyn Soutter
                                              Fred,   There are 3 places in Co Antrim named Ballycraigy (in Antrim town, Larne & Carnmoney). However generally when someone came from a place that was at a
                                              Message 23 of 24 , Apr 16, 2013
                                                Fred,
                                                 
                                                There are 3 places in Co Antrim named Ballycraigy (in Antrim town, Larne & Carnmoney). However generally when someone came from a place that was at a distance from the church, the Minister usually wrote something like “Ballycraigy, parish of Antrim” or “Dennistoun, Glasgow” to identify the location more clearly. If it’s just Ballycraigy, I’d expect it to be local to Ballymena. This seems likely to me to be Ballycreggy in the parish of Ballyclug. That’s Harryville which is where Alex seems to have had connections, judging by the grave inscription. (I note he was born in Ballee). The revaluation records for Ballycreggy are on VAL/12/B/3/2. I checked volumes A & B but cannot see any Sutter (or variant) household listed.
                                                 
                                                Bear in mind that only the head of household is listed so if Alex was just lodging there, with some other family, he wouldn’t appear. (His family appear to have been in Ballee so presumably he hadn’t lived in Ballycreggy very long). Likewise if he was the householder but only stayed a short time, he could easily have come and gone without Griffiths recording that.
                                                 
                                                I had a look at the Ballee records for Alex’s parents 1860 – 1910 (Agnes only after 1878 obviously), and they are not listed though it’s fairly clear from the 1901 census that the family were there all that time. I did notice Orr and Francey families listed in Ballee so presumably that’s where they originate too. They were elusive your Sutter ancestors.
                                                 
                                                Elwyn


                                                From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                                To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 1:30
                                                Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                                 
                                                Elwyn

                                                I hope I am not bothering you too much. I realize there are lots of different ways to spell Sutter/Soutter. However at least in 1878 when Alexander married Ann Eliza Francey (July 27, 1878) he and his father, John used the spelling Sutter (or at least that is what the cleric wrote on the marriage certificate) from 1st Presbyterian Church in Ballymena. It shows the Abode as Ballycraigy. I have tried to find them in the Valuation Revisions under that spelling as well as 'Ballycreggy' but no luck. Do you have any other suggestions for spelling of the townland?

                                                Best regards, Fred

                                                --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Fred,
                                                >  
                                                > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
                                                > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
                                                > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
                                                > course, but seems a possibility.
                                                >  
                                                > The spelling of the name varies from
                                                > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
                                                > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
                                                > trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                                >  
                                                > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
                                                > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
                                                > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                                >
                                                >  
                                                >  
                                                > Elwyn
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                                > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                                > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >  
                                                > Thanks Elwyn,
                                                >
                                                > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
                                                >
                                                > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
                                                >
                                                > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
                                                >
                                                > Fred
                                                > Oakville, Canada
                                                >
                                                > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Fred,
                                                > >  
                                                > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                                > >  
                                                > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                                > >  
                                                > > Elwyn
                                                > >
                                                > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                                > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                                > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                > >
                                                > >  
                                                > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                                > >
                                                > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                                > >
                                                > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                                > >
                                                > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                                > >
                                                > > Fred
                                                > > Oakville, Canada
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Fred,
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                                > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                                > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                                > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                                > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                                > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                                > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                                > > > or street numbers).
                                                > > >  
                                                > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                                > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                                > > > he arrived and left. (If he’s not in the original valuation then it’s
                                                > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                                > > >  
                                                > > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                                > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                                > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                                > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                                > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                                > > >  
                                                > > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                                > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                                > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                                > > > on-line though.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Elwyn
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > ________________________________
                                                > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                                > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                                > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >  
                                                > > > Elwyn,
                                                > > >
                                                > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Fred
                                                > > > Oakville, Canada
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > cheers
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Shirlee
                                                > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                                > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                                > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Shirlee,
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Elwyn
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                                > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                                > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Hi Elwyn
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Shirlee
                                                > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                                > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                                > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >



                                              • Elwyn Soutter
                                                  Fred,   The Gibson will (and most pre 1900 Irish wills) was destroyed in the 1922 fire in the Public Record Office in Dublin, during the civil war. All
                                                Message 24 of 24 , Apr 16, 2013
                                                   
                                                  Fred,
                                                   
                                                  The Gibson will (and most pre 1900 Irish wills) was destroyed in the 1922 fire in the Public Record Office in Dublin, during the civil war. All that survives is the clerks transcript (which fortunately was kept in the Belfast Probate court) and which you can now see on the PRONI website. So PRONI won’t have any additional papers for this particular will.
                                                   
                                                  There can be many reasons why the final grant of probate is years after the death. A common one is that the deceased’s widow had a life interest in the property. That doesn’t appear to be the case here as I infer James Gibson was a widower. However I see that there was a trust arrangement for 2 daughters Mary Logan and Jane Gibson to have a house of their own so long as they remained unmarried. I suspect that’s the reason the final grant was delayed. It wouldn’t be possible to wind up the estate, so long as that trust was in force. Both women had probably married or at least left the property by 1893 though, so finally enabling the estate to be wound up.
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Elwyn


                                                  From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                                  To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, 16 April 2013, 11:36
                                                  Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records

                                                   
                                                  Thanks Elwyn,

                                                  It would also be appreciated if you could obtain a copy of the will of James Gibson of Loughconly who died April 27, 1885. For some reason the date of grant was delayed until 1893.

                                                  Fred

                                                  --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Fred,
                                                  >  
                                                  > I don’t know what the M in the margin
                                                  > means. I have not seen it before. Whatever it meant, it was not in common use.
                                                  >  
                                                  > I’ll get you a copy of the will (and
                                                  > anything else from the probate file that might provide you with additional
                                                  > information).
                                                  >  
                                                  >  
                                                  > Elwyn
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ________________________________
                                                  > From: Fred <fredpincock@...>
                                                  > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 22:52
                                                  > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >  
                                                  > Thanks again Elwyn,
                                                  >
                                                  > The 1940 page is very helpful. From other information I have, it looks like the plots were kept in the family. Alexander had 8 children, 4 of which were daughters. The oldest, Mary married James Gourley (she's listed as landlord and he is occupant!). The second daughter, Agnes married Joseph Boyle (they came to Canada in 1911); so I am not sure who the Mrs Boyle is for plot 178 but there must be a connection. The third daughter, Margaret married Alex Scott (plot 180). I don't have any information on the fourth daughter Annie but maybe she married Samuel Graham??
                                                  >
                                                  > Do you know what the M in the margin signifies? Obviously plot 176 is better as the assessment is much more.
                                                  >
                                                  > I would love to have the full will. I was hoping to come to Ballymena some year soon and do more research. However if you would be so kind to get it and send it now, that would be greatly appreciated.
                                                  >
                                                  > It is nice that these more recent pages are typed. It makes them easier to read
                                                  >
                                                  > Fred
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Fred,
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > Yes it’s on page 78. By the way you might
                                                  > > also notice a mention of an Alex Souter on page 88, where he had a house
                                                  > > at the rear of 20 & 22 Queen St. Can’t say whether it’s the same person of
                                                  > > course, but seems a possibility.
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > The spelling of the name varies from
                                                  > > Suiter, Suitor, Suter, Souter (and of course my own version Soutter). There’s
                                                  > > plenty of the name around Ballymena yet. The name indicates a cobbler, so it’s a
                                                  > > trade name like Wright or Smith.
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > There’s an Alexander Suiter in Craigywarren
                                                  > > and a William Suiter in Kirkinriola townland in Griffiths in 1862. No doubt
                                                  > > there were others in the area. I am sure they were probably in the area from the 1600s. Perhaps they came over from Wigtownshire with the Adair who effectively established Ballymena. Who knows?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >  
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > Elwyn
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > PS I have attached a copy of the 1940s valuation for you. Also I assume that the full probate file for Alexander Suter's death in 1940 should be in PRONI, with his will etc? Do you want it?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ________________________________
                                                  > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                                  > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013, 19:56
                                                  > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >  
                                                  > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > That is very helpful to fill in some blanks. Could you tell me which page in the book shows plot 126, 128 and 130. I can't seem to find it. In fact Alexander died January 21, 1940. I found the abstract of his will on PRONI and he is buried in Old Ballyclug Cemetery (I got that from The Braid). He did have a son John, so you are probably right that he took over.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > His parents are also buried in Old Ballyclug which might suggest they came from near there. However there are no Sutters in Griffiths so they may have arrived after that time or Griffiths has a different spelling for their name.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Interestingly, the abstract of the will shows the beneficiaries as two men who I believe are his sons-in-law. There is no mention of John in the abstract.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Fred
                                                  > > Oakville, Canada
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Fred,
                                                  > > >  
                                                  > > > I have had a look at the master copies of the books in PRONI. The years 1896 - 1901 are covered by VAL/12/B/3/5K. That shows Alex Suter in situ with a house, shop, offices (ie outbuildings) and a yard. In that volume the property was numbered plot 130, though prior to that it had been no 134. Alex was also immediate superior landlord for plots 128 & 126 which he was subletting to others. I could not find the books prior to 1896 and it looks as though they are missing. So that to some extent explains why they are not on the PRONI site. Since Alex wasn't there in the 1860s when the primary valuation was done, all you can really say at the moment is that he arrived between the 1860s and 1895.
                                                  > > >  
                                                  > > > I had a look at the records subsequent to the on-line valuation records. VAL/3C/1/11 covers the years 1836 - 1957. They show that plot 130 in Queen St changed from Alex Sutter (sic) to James A Boyd in 1942. The immediate superior landlord also changed from G.T Graham to John A Sutter. The two sublet properties also changed landlord to John A Sutter at the same time. Typically this suggests that Alex had died around 1942 and his son took over, but you would need to verify that from other sources.
                                                  > > >  
                                                  > > > Elwyn
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                                  > > > To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 21:42
                                                  > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >  
                                                  > > > Thanks Elwyn,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > That is helpful although I am still a bit lost. The books after this one are not available yet (hopefully in the next batch). The book before this one does not seem to have the property listed. Queen Street seems to run out of properties. Is it possible the property is in the "country" and listed somewhere else in the book? I tried looking in other places, but could not find anything.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > You suggested he held the property for the whole period of the book.If so, then should the acquisition either through purchase or lease show somewhere in the previous book?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Any further suggestions would be greatly suggested.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Fred
                                                  > > > Oakville, Canada
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, Elwyn Soutter <elwynsoutter@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Fred,
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The striking through is of the plot number, not of Alexander's name.
                                                  > > > > What that means is simply that the clerk renumbered the property. Over the years new
                                                  > > > > houses would be built and existing houses subdivided. Sometimes the Griffiths
                                                  > > > > clerks dealt with that by numbering the additional households 134a, b, c etc,
                                                  > > > > and other times, especially if there were a lot of changes, they renumbered the
                                                  > > > > whole street. These were Griffiths own administrative numbers of course, not actual
                                                  > > > > house numbers, if there were any. (Outside urban areas there were no road names
                                                  > > > > or street numbers).
                                                  > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                                  > > > > Alexander Suter remained the tenant all
                                                  > > > > through that volume, so you need the volumes before and after to find out when
                                                  > > > > he arrived and left. (If heÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s not in the original valuation then itÃÆ'¢â‚¬â„¢s
                                                  > > > > reasonable to assume he arrived after the mid 1860s.).
                                                  > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                                  > > > > According to the publicity material, out of
                                                  > > > > some 3900 volumes in all, there are 44 which have not yet been scanned
                                                  > > > > on. Presumably they are either missing or in too poor a condition to be scanned.
                                                  > > > > It looks as though these Ballymena volumes might be amongst them. PRONI
                                                  > > > > intend to put them on eventually where they can.
                                                  > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                                  > > > > If you think Alexander might still have
                                                  > > > > been there in 1930, then the next set of Valuations is series VAL/3 which covers the years 1935 onwards to the 1960s, and should contain
                                                  > > > > details of who the occupant of property 130 was then. (They use the same property numbers). They are not
                                                  > > > > on-line though.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Elwyn
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > ________________________________
                                                  > > > > From: Fred <fredpincock@>
                                                  > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > Sent: Thursday, 28 March 2013, 2:01
                                                  > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
                                                  > > > > Elwyn,
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > You are the expert on this subject and are leaving yourself open to many questions. Do you want all this extra work??
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I am trying to find Alexander Sutter who had a grocery store on Queen Street Ballymena. I could not find him in Griffith's (maybe he was not there then) but he was definitely there in the 1901 and 1911 census. I looked up the Valuation Revision records which you have so kindly told us about and I found him at IRELBEL1D_VAL-12B-3-5K_M_078. However the item is struck through. What does that mean? You will note the other years are not available for that location. Possibly those records will be available at a later date.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Any information you could provide would be most ueful and greatly appreciated
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Fred
                                                  > > > > Oakville, Canada
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com, "Shirlee Cantwell" <tcantwell@> wrote:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Thanks Elwyn. Margaret Houston was the niece of Samuel Dale and William Houston would have been her brother.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > cheers
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Shirlee
                                                  > > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > > > > From: Elwyn Soutter
                                                  > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:29 AM
                                                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Shirlee,
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > I was able to have a look at the records this morning. ThereÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'¢â€žÂ¢s a gap in the records between 1930 and 1936. In 1936 the occupant of 22 in Ballycloghan is Margaret Houston, so the change of occupant appears to have taken place between 1930 and 1936 (as far as the records are concerned). In 1939 it changes again to William Houston and he remains there till the end of the records in 1957. There are no later records in PRONI for that electoral district. Presumably the more recent ones are still held by the Valuation Office.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Elwyn
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > > > > From: Shirlee Cantwell <tcantwell@>
                                                  > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2013, 5:16
                                                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Hi Elwyn
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > I need some help in trying to find Ballycloghan in the last file 1920-1929 Val/12/B/3/7E In the index Ballycloghan has been crossed out and moved to ED Glenravill. When I try to search for Glenravill nothing comes up. Samuel Dale died in 1919 so there should be another entry as I think his niece Maggie Houston would have taken over the farm.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Shirlee
                                                  > > > > > Wellington, NZ
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > > > > > From: elwynsoutter
                                                  > > > > > To: mailto:Mid-AntrimGenealogy%40yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:00 AM
                                                  > > > > > Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Griffiths Revaluation Records
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The Griffiths revaluation records have gone on-line today, on the PRONI website:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/val12b.htm
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > You can use them to trace when your ancestors acquired or gave up a property, between the 1860s and 1930. (Records also exist for the years after 1930 but they are not part of this programme. They are in paper from in PRONI).
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >



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