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Re: James Craig

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  • elwynsoutter
    Mavis, To answer your query from November about William Craig, you won t find a birth certificate for him because his birth is before the start of birth
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2011
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      Mavis,

      To answer your query from November about William Craig, you won't find a birth certificate for him because his birth is before the start of birth registration in Ireland (1864). You might find his baptism, if the records have survived. But to do that you really need to know his exact religion, and townland or parish in Antrim. There's no centralised index and so you need to know which churches records to search.

      PRONI have copies of most parish records for NI (and they are temporarily available at Cregagh Library whilst PRONI is closed down). I would be surprised if any baptism information gave the mother's maiden name. But it might, and you might find other siblings too.

      You could contact the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and ask them what records they have of William's career, and perhaps whether they know where he was born?

      www.presbyterianireland.org/

      Note that from a quick Google check there appears to have been at least 2 Rev William Craigs in Co Down in the 1800s for there was a Rev Wm Craig of Carnmoney who was installed as Minister at Dromara First Presbyterian church in 1823.


      Elwyn






      --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Crooks" <gordoncrooks@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mavis: The name Craig is quite common and thus difficult to trace. I see
      > that you live in UK, so I would suggest Scotslandspeple which you have to
      > pay for and/or PRONI in Belfast. While they are closed currently because
      > they are moving to new quarters, some info can be obtained via the internet
      > in the meantime from them. I would suggest you contact them and see what is
      > available at this time. Sorry that i can't offer any better suggestions, but
      > peole moving back and forth are Hell to trace.
      >
      > Gordon
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "becca_atkin" <Rebel_rockchick@...>
      > To: "Gordon Crooks" <gordoncrooks@...>
      > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 2:34 PM
      > Subject: Re: James Craig
      >
      >
      > > Hi,
      > > I have a james craig born c1830 (occ:grocer?/shoemaker) in ireland on my
      > > tree (not sure where abouts in ireland), he moved to scotland had a child
      > > john craig c1855 then they moved to berwick upon tweed & had the rest of
      > > their children. James craig had married mary bradley (not sure if married
      > > in ireland or scotland). James craigs son william craig b1859 was my ggg
      > > grandfather. Probably not your james but i thought worth a try.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Crooks"
      > > <gordoncrooks@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Mavis: I have never tried to obtain a copy of a marriage certificate in
      > >> N. Ireland as mine left very early on, so I can be of much help to you
      > >> on that. Proni was supposed to close down for moving so I am not sure if
      > >> they are open. I might know of some one who lives in N. Ireland and
      > >> obrains documents of this type for a fee. If you want I can arrange an
      > >> introduction.
      > >>
      > >> Gordon Crooks
      > >> ----- Original Message -----
      > >> From: Linda Holley
      > >> To: Linda's List
      > >> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:08 AM
      > >> Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] James Craig
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Begin forwarded message:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Can anyone in our group help Mavis?
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Linda
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> From: "Mavis Barrett" <mavis.barrett@>
      > >>
      > >> Date: November 14, 2010 2:07:17 AM EST
      > >>
      > >> To: <CountyDownGenealogy@yahoogroups.com>
      > >>
      > >> Subject: [CountyDownGenealogy] Rev William Craig's birth certificate.
      > >>
      > >> Reply-To: CountyDownGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> My ggrandfather's brother William Craig was born 22 Sep 1829, his
      > >> parents
      > >> were Robert & Ellen Craig from Antrim. Rev William was Presbyterian
      > >> minister at Bangor, Conlig, Co Down. Where can I send for his birth
      > >> certificate and would PRONI have a record of this entry, I am after
      > >> his
      > >> mother's maiden name and hoped it maybe on the birth cert. My
      > >> ggrandfather
      > >> James Craig, was born abt 1830, Antrim, and I cant seem to find
      > >> anything on
      > >> him, so am trying his brother.
      > >>
      > >> Any help or guidance would be much appreciated.
      > >>
      > >> Mavis.
      > >>
      > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Gordon Crooks
      Mavis & Elwyn: Here is my two cents worth! I have spent about 3 years trying to determine what my 7th removed grandmothers maiden name was, I know for an
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Mavis & Elwyn:
                                 Here is my two cents worth! I have spent about 3 years trying to determine what my 7th removed grandmothers maiden name was, I know for an actual fact that she was born in Ireland and where in 1700 , what church records that still exist are very slim and either PRONI or the Presbyterian Historical Society hold the bulk of what is left. Even the late date of your James Craig is an improbable for several reasons 1. The 4 courts fires, 2 The Church of Ireland, 3 The Presbyterians.. I can't remember the exact year but the Presbyterian Church was NOT allowed to operate officially in Ireland as a independent church until some time late in the 1800's and until then they were under the aspecies of the Church of Ireland(Anglican) - this did not promote record keeping by the Presbyterians.
         
        Here is an example of that I hold the very early records of the Presbyterians in lower Pennsylvania and on the frontier, some of these records go back to the 1740's and are extensive. I have copies of letters written to Scotland requesting the services of a Pastor, copies of the Presbytery meetings, baptism, death and marriage records and also burial records, all of this totals over 1800 pages of information of just one small county and most of it about the three churches which made up the West Conocoheague Presbytery as of 1759
         
        The above is a perfect example of the original problem of the Presbyterians in Ireland, they were simply afraid to keep records and be persecuted for it.Also reading the Covenanter Martyrs List of the 1600's for Scotland where carrying a Presbyterian bible was a hanging offense.
         
                                                                                     Gordon
         
         
         
        Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 8:03 AM
        Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: James Craig

         

        Mavis,

        To answer your query from November about William Craig, you won't find a birth certificate for him because his birth is before the start of birth registration in Ireland (1864). You might find his baptism, if the records have survived. But to do that you really need to know his exact religion, and townland or parish in Antrim. There's no centralised index and so you need to know which churches records to search.

        PRONI have copies of most parish records for NI (and they are temporarily available at Cregagh Library whilst PRONI is closed down). I would be surprised if any baptism information gave the mother's maiden name. But it might, and you might find other siblings too.

        You could contact the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and ask them what records they have of William's career, and perhaps whether they know where he was born?

        www.presbyterianireland.org/

        Note that from a quick Google check there appears to have been at least 2 Rev William Craigs in Co Down in the 1800s for there was a Rev Wm Craig of Carnmoney who was installed as Minister at Dromara First Presbyterian church in 1823.

        Elwyn

        --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Crooks" <gordoncrooks@...> wrote:
        >
        > Mavis: The name Craig is quite common and thus difficult to trace. I see
        > that you live in UK, so I would suggest Scotslandspeple which you have to
        > pay for and/or PRONI in Belfast. While they are closed currently because
        > they are moving to new quarters, some info can be obtained via the internet
        > in the meantime from them. I would suggest you contact them and see what is
        > available at this time. Sorry that i can't offer any better suggestions, but
        > peole moving back and forth are Hell to trace.
        >
        > Gordon
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "becca_atkin" <Rebel_rockchick@...>
        > To: "Gordon Crooks" <gordoncrooks@...>
        > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 2:34 PM
        > Subject: Re: James Craig
        >
        >
        > > Hi,
        > > I have a james craig born c1830 (occ:grocer?/shoemaker) in ireland on my
        > > tree (not sure where abouts in ireland), he moved to scotland had a child
        > > john craig c1855 then they moved to berwick upon tweed & had the rest of
        > > their children. James craig had married mary bradley (not sure if married
        > > in ireland or scotland). James craigs son william craig b1859 was my ggg
        > > grandfather. Probably not your james but i thought worth a try.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Crooks"
        > > <gordoncrooks@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Mavis: I have never tried to obtain a copy of a marriage certificate in
        > >> N. Ireland as mine left very early on, so I can be of much help to you
        > >> on that. Proni was supposed to close down for moving so I am not sure if
        > >> they are open. I might know of some one who lives in N. Ireland and
        > >> obrains documents of this type for a fee. If you want I can arrange an
        > >> introduction.
        > >>
        > >> Gordon Crooks
        > >> ----- Original Message -----
        > >> From: Linda Holley
        > >> To: Linda's List
        > >> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:08 AM
        > >> Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] James Craig
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Begin forwarded message:
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Can anyone in our group help Mavis?
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Linda
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> From: "Mavis Barrett" <mavis.barrett@>
        > >>
        > >> Date: November 14, 2010 2:07:17 AM EST
        > >>
        > >> To: <CountyDownGenealogy@yahoogroups.com>
        > >>
        > >> Subject: [CountyDownGenealogy] Rev William Craig's birth certificate.
        > >>
        > >> Reply-To: CountyDownGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> My ggrandfather's brother William Craig was born 22 Sep 1829, his
        > >> parents
        > >> were Robert & Ellen Craig from Antrim. Rev William was Presbyterian
        > >> minister at Bangor, Conlig, Co Down. Where can I send for his birth
        > >> certificate and would PRONI have a record of this entry, I am after
        > >> his
        > >> mother's maiden name and hoped it maybe on the birth cert. My
        > >> ggrandfather
        > >> James Craig, was born abt 1830, Antrim, and I cant seem to find
        > >> anything on
        > >> him, so am trying his brother.
        > >>
        > >> Any help or guidance would be much appreciated.
        > >>
        > >> Mavis.
        > >>
        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        >

      • Elwyn Soutter
        Gordon & Mavis, The Presbyterian church suffered repression similar to RC and other non established churches in Ireland, but I wouldn’t really agree they
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Gordon & Mavis,

          The Presbyterian church suffered repression similar to RC and other non established churches in Ireland, but I wouldn’t really agree they were afraid to keep records. Plenty of Presbyterian written records were kept and have survived. Unfortunately there are plenty of gaps in them though. Presbyterians were busy marrying couples in the 17th, 18th & 19th centuries, even if there was a question mark over the validity of those marriages. I live near Antrim town where Mill Row Presbyterian church has Baptism & Marriage records starting back in 1675.

           

          Prior to civil registration only those marriages performed under the aegis of the Church of Ireland, the official and established state church, were legally valid – in theory at least. In practice, de facto recognition was given to marriages validated by other denominations. Nevertheless, the legal validity of Church of Ireland unions meant that some marriages, particularly those of members of other Protestant denominations, were recorded in the Church of Ireland registers, and this was perhaps more likely when land and property interests were involved. Having a marriage officially registered and validated through the auspices of the Church of Ireland ensured legitimacy and legality. Parish registers were kept and used to denote ties of kinship, and this was important not only in marriage but also in courts of law where there might be some dispute about the status of an individual.

           

          The new marriage Act of 1844, which was introduced to regulate Protestant marriages, recognised the efficacy of Presbyterian ministers officiating at all marriages for the first time. In the pre-civil registration period the legislature did not regard the clerical faculties of Presbyterian clergy as equal to those of Anglican ministers or Roman Catholic priests because Presbyterian clergy had not been episcopally ordained [thus, in some eyes rendering the marriages at which they officiated invalid]. The Presbytery of Laggan, County Donegal, as early as 1673, complained that marriages conducted by its ministers were regarded as ‘fornication’. The Presbytery decided that marriage should always be celebrated in the presence of the congregation [Laggan Presbytery Minutes, Nov-Jan, 1673-74]. Even so, some did go to the bishop or rector to be married to avoid the obloquium that followed marriage in their own church.

           

          The ‘Sacramental Test Act’ of 1704, added further insult to Presbyterians, and they faced discrimination, unable to enter parliament or hold any office under the crown. More galling, perhaps, than these restrictions, was the fact that Presbyterian ministers had no status in the eyes of the law. In 1712, the Reverend John McBride [Belfast] in his ‘Vindication of Marriages as solemnized by Presbyterians’ complained of episcopal attacks on Presbyterian marriages and condemned episcopal clergy for demanding and taking fees in respect of marriages they declared to be invalid [marriage dues appear to have been one important source of income for the clergy of the Church of Ireland in this period]. Presbyterian ministers continued to conduct marriages for the majority of their flock in their own churches and they followed the form and practice of the Church of Scotland. A ‘Bill of Indemnity’ of 1737 gave indemnity from prosecution in ecclesiastical courts to Presbyterian marriage contracts. Marriages by Presbyterian ministers of their own members was legalised in 1782 but marriages between a Presbyterian and a member of another denomination only became legal in 1845 [John Barkley, ‘Marriage and the Presbyterian Tradition’, Ulster Folklife, Volume 39, 1993 ps. 29-40].

           

          (Source – Aspects of Irish Genealogy by Robert Forrest).

           

          Regarding possible records for the Ministers, the Presbyterian Historical Society specifically advertises they have records of Ministers and their families. See www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com/   I hope this might help Mavis. (Incidentally I am assuming of course that the Rev Craig was a member of the mainstream Presbyterian church. Mavis needs to be aware that there were numerous secession Presbyterian churches whose records, if they have survived, will probably not be held by the Presbyterian Historical Society).

           

          The 4 Courts fire in Dublin in 1922 destroyed a lot of Church of Ireland records together with the remaining censuses, but no Presbyterian Church records were affected or lost. So fingers crossed.

           

           

          Elwyn




          From: Gordon Crooks <gordoncrooks@...>
          To: Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, 1 January, 2011 14:57:35
          Subject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: James Craig

           

          Mavis & Elwyn:
                                   Here is my two cents worth! I have spent about 3 years trying to determine what my 7th removed grandmothers maiden name was, I know for an actual fact that she was born in Ireland and where in 1700 , what church records that still exist are very slim and either PRONI or the Presbyterian Historical Society hold the bulk of what is left. Even the late date of your James Craig is an improbable for several reasons 1. The 4 courts fires, 2 The Church of Ireland, 3 The Presbyterians.. I can't remember the exact year but the Presbyterian Church was NOT allowed to operate officially in Ireland as a independent church until some time late in the 1800's and until then they were under the aspecies of the Church of Ireland(Anglican) - this did not promote record keeping by the Presbyterians.
           
          Here is an example of that I hold the very early records of the Presbyterians in lower Pennsylvania and on the frontier, some of these records go back to the 1740's and are extensive. I have copies of letters written to Scotland requesting the services of a Pastor, copies of the Presbytery meetings, baptism, death and marriage records and also burial records, all of this totals over 1800 pages of information of just one small county and most of it about the three churches which made up the West Conocoheague Presbytery as of 1759
           
          The above is a perfect example of the original problem of the Presbyterians in Ireland, they were simply afraid to keep records and be persecuted for it.Also reading the Covenanter Martyrs List of the 1600's for Scotland where carrying a Presbyterian bible was a hanging offense.
           
                                                                                       Gordon
           
           
           
          Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 8:03 AM
          Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Re: James Craig

           

          Mavis,

          To answer your query from November about William Craig, you won't find a birth certificate for him because his birth is before the start of birth registration in Ireland (1864). You might find his baptism, if the records have survived. But to do that you really need to know his exact religion, and townland or parish in Antrim. There's no centralised index and so you need to know which churches records to search.

          PRONI have copies of most parish records for NI (and they are temporarily available at Cregagh Library whilst PRONI is closed down). I would be surprised if any baptism information gave the mother's maiden name. But it might, and you might find other siblings too.

          You could contact the Presbyterian Church in Ireland and ask them what records they have of William's career, and perhaps whether they know where he was born?

          www.presbyterianireland.org/

          Note that from a quick Google check there appears to have been at least 2 Rev William Craigs in Co Down in the 1800s for there was a Rev Wm Craig of Carnmoney who was installed as Minister at Dromara First Presbyterian church in 1823.

          Elwyn

          --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Crooks" <gordoncrooks@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mavis: The name Craig is quite common and thus difficult to trace. I see
          > that you live in UK, so I would suggest Scotslandspeple which you have to
          > pay for and/or PRONI in Belfast. While they are closed currently because
          > they are moving to new quarters, some info can be obtained via the internet
          > in the meantime from them. I would suggest you contact them and see what is
          > available at this time. Sorry that i can't offer any better suggestions, but
          > peole moving back and forth are Hell to trace.
          >
          > Gordon
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "becca_atkin" <Rebel_rockchick@...>
          > To: "Gordon Crooks" <gordoncrooks@...>
          > Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 2:34 PM
          > Subject: Re: James Craig
          >
          >
          > > Hi,
          > > I have a james craig born c1830 (occ:grocer?/shoemaker) in ireland on my
          > > tree (not sure where abouts in ireland), he moved to scotland had a child
          > > john craig c1855 then they moved to berwick upon tweed & had the rest of
          > > their children. James craig had married mary bradley (not sure if married
          > > in ireland or scotland). James craigs son william craig b1859 was my ggg
          > > grandfather. Probably not your james but i thought worth a try.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Mid-AntrimGenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Crooks"
          > > <gordoncrooks@> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> Mavis: I have never tried to obtain a copy of a marriage certificate in
          > >> N. Ireland as mine left very early on, so I can be of much help to you
          > >> on that. Proni was supposed to close down for moving so I am not sure if
          > >> they are open. I might know of some one who lives in N. Ireland and
          > >> obrains documents of this type for a fee. If you want I can arrange an
          > >> introduction.
          > >>
          > >> Gordon Crooks
          > >> ----- Original Message -----
          > >> From: Linda Holley
          > >> To: Linda's List
          > >> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:08 AM
          > >> Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] James Craig
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Begin forwarded message:
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Can anyone in our group help Mavis?
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Linda
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> From: "Mavis Barrett" <mavis.barrett@>
          > >>
          > >> Date: November 14, 2010 2:07:17 AM EST
          > >>
          > >> To: <CountyDownGenealogy@yahoogroups.com>
          > >>
          > >> Subject: [CountyDownGenealogy] Rev William Craig's birth certificate.
          > >>
          > >> Reply-To: CountyDownGenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> My ggrandfather's brother William Craig was born 22 Sep 1829, his
          > >> parents
          > >> were Robert & Ellen Craig from Antrim. Rev William was Presbyterian
          > >> minister at Bangor, Conlig, Co Down. Where can I send for his birth
          > >> certificate and would PRONI have a record of this entry, I am after
          > >> his
          > >> mother's maiden name and hoped it maybe on the birth cert. My
          > >> ggrandfather
          > >> James Craig, was born abt 1830, Antrim, and I cant seem to find
          > >> anything on
          > >> him, so am trying his brother.
          > >>
          > >> Any help or guidance would be much appreciated.
          > >>
          > >> Mavis.
          > >>
          > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          >


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