6588Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] RE: Index to Deputy Keeper of Public Records Dublin
- Oct 7, 2013Dear Gordon,
Thomas Francis Gordon wrote in 1829 “The History of Pennsylvania from its discovery by Europeons to The Declaration of Independence in 1776”
One time I asked how he knew about (pg. 619) Hugh (Mc)Carroll and his family being made prisoners. Your answer was the Gordons were so intermarried, I presumed you meant they were relatives to the (Mc)Carrolls.
I found a Thomas F. Gordon in 1850 Census, Bucks Co., Pa. Bensalem. He was born abt. 1785, though his wife was Constance born abt. 1787. There were children, who seemed to young to be theirs.
You had sent pictures of tombstones at Johnston/Beatty/Gordon private cemetery on the old Johnston original farm. The one was for Alexander Gordon. You said you believed his wife was a Beatty.
George Gordon born 1698 and died 1759 in Chambersburg is Mary Elizabeth Gordon's father, she married John Crunkleton who was born 1734.
I have George Gordon born 1665 in North Ireland or Scotland. He has sons Alexander Gordon born abt. 1697, George Gordon born 1698, and Adam Gordon.
Alexander Gordon b. 1768 m. Joanna Smith and had Alexander Gordon Jr..b. 1803 (From the Rootsweb World Connect tree of Gordon-Lawyer)
You sent an e-mail saying Alexander Gordon Jr.(b. 1803) married Joanna Fullerton and had 10 children. One of their daughters married a Robert McIlvaney.
I’m not having any luck figuring out how or if I’m related to the author.
Rebecca McCarl Rogers
I see the name Gordon is now poping up along with Paul and Ahoghill. Well at the time (years ago) that I researched, my Crooks line and related families, I did not look for those two names as they were at that point of time of little interest to me. I am distantly related to the Gordon's but only via Franklin Co., Pa. and there is no known relationship with the Paul's, however the Paul's did live just a few miles away and were related to the Mooreheads of which I have no less than four connections to. The Gordon's themselves were only a few miles away and they were a huge tribe and there were lots of daughters, all of whom married and several ended up in the mid-west and also in Illinois with their husbands. There are still lots of Gordon's living in Franklin Co., Pa. and I know at least one of them personally and she is probably a distance cousin to me.It is entirely possible that the Paul's and Gordon's all came over on the same ship from Ahoghill, Glamgorm Estate along with my Crooks, Mooreheads, McCreas, McClures, Dunwoodies, Beatty's, and Ambrose as its sems they all, traveled over onthe same ship and they arrived in 1737 (I think)Gordon Crooks----- Original Message -----From: mjumpherson@...Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 8:22 PMSubject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] RE: Index to Deputy Keeper of Public Records Dublin
And many of the Ahoghill Pauls emigrated to Iowa and Saunders Co. Nebraska. Could Jane Herbison be a daughter of Moses Paul and Charity (Chilly) Gordon?
---In email@example.com, <mjumpherson@...> wrote:
So its stands to reason that Jane Paul-Herbison's father was a Moses Paul (????)
I have studied 2 groups of Pauls in the Ballymena area: the Ahoghill or Craigs parish Pauls to the northwest and the Skerry parish near Broughshane Pauls to the northeast. My Pauls were from Skerry/Glenravel, ie. the Townlands of Lisbreen, Elginny, Legnagooley, Knockanully. Moses Paul emigrated to Ontario, Canada in 1847. He went back to N. Ireland and returned in 1852 with his brother John I. Paul and family and their elderly father whom I believe was another John Paul.
Moses Paul's son John Brown Paul was baptized in 1838 at First Broughshane Presbyterian and married (here in Canada) Annie McMullen (or Mullen) also from Ireland.
Somewhere in my notes I have seen the name Herbison, as well.
Maybe we have some distant connection?
---In firstname.lastname@example.org, <amy.lewark@...> wrote:
Just poking my head in here to say that Adam McMullen (the Governor of Nebraska) had a younger brother named Moses Paul McMullen (b 1876 Wellsville, New York). In the earliest US census record (1800) he was listed as Moses P McMullen, and then later he went by Paul.
As I mentioned in the other thread on the McMullens, his mother was Mary Herbison, who married John H McMullen in Ahoghill in 1854. Mary Herbison's parents were Jane Paul and Adam Herbison.
Perhaps I should be looking for families with Jane and Moses, then! I didn't understand the significance of his name until this thread came along, so thank you!
---In email@example.com, <mjumpherson@...> wrote:
Great information and explanation, Elwyn. I dont think these 2 marriages pertain to my family as I just found reference to a Moses aka John alis Montgomery Paul, bachelor who died in 1864 in California leaving his estate to his sister Mary Paul, wife of Hutchinson Chadwick of Blackrock, County DUBLIN, Ireland. So this alone is evidence of another Moses Paul in Co. Dublin. You are right- it really does not make sense that Presbyterian Ulster Scot Pauls from Co. Antrim would have to travel 100+ miles to Dublin to get permission to marry outside of their faith. Just not realistic. It's a process of elimination- and I just eliminated it.
And the Canadian Pauls were Presbyterian and Ulster Scots as well, Gordon. But the last part of the email address you sent is blocked. Maybe you or Linda can send it to me, personally, if you can see my email address? Thanks.
---In firstname.lastname@example.org, <gordoncrooks@...> wrote:Elwyn: I have to agree with you, the Paul's that I know here were Ulsterscots and Presbyterians.Gordon----- Original Message -----From: Elwyn SoutterSent: Sunday, October 06, 2013 11:16 AMSubject: Re: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] RE: Index to Deputy Keeper of Public Records DublinPaul,I was certainly curious as to why your Pauls might appear in Dublin records, because where they lived was within the Church of Ireland Diocese of Down & Connor. They wouldn’t have had to go to Dublin to marry. The local Church of Ireland Vicar or Rector could marry them. (Indeed he could marry anyone of any denomination).You’ll know that until 1845 there were sometimes question marks over the validity of marriages conducted outside of the Church of Ireland. Most people paid no attention to that and married in their chosen faith anyway. (Presumably seeing it as a matter between them and God, and none of the state’s business). But with mixed marriages people often did go to the Church of Ireland just to be on the safe side. But they didn't need to go to Dublin or apply for special permission to do that. My only suggestion for why they might show up in Dublin records is that at least one party was living in that diocese at that time for some reason. Tradition was to marry in the bride’s church. So if the bride came from the Dublin diocese, then that could explain a marriage licence being issued there. That would also fit with the lack of Gallaghers in Co Antrim, that you have commented on. That’s all I can think of.Here’s a bit of background about Irish marriage law prior to 1845, taken from “Aspects of Irish Genealogy”, by Robert Forrest.Prior to civil registration only those marriages performed under the aegis of the Church of Ireland, the official and established state church, were legally valid – in theory at least. In practice, de facto recognition was given to marriages validated by other denominations. Nevertheless, the legal validity of Church of Ireland unions meant that some marriages, particularly those of members of other Protestant denominations, were recorded in the Church of Ireland registers, and this was perhaps more likely when land and property interests were involved. Having a marriage officially registered and validated through the auspices of the Church of Ireland ensured legitimacy and legality. Parish registers were kept and used to denote ties of kinship, and this was important not only in marriage but also in courts of law where there might be some dispute about the status of an individual.The new marriage Act of 1844, which was introduced to regulate Protestant marriages, recognised the efficacy of Presbyterian ministers officiating at all marriages for the first time. In the pre-civil registration period the legislature did not regard the clerical faculties of Presbyterian clergy as equal to those of Anglican ministers or Roman Catholic priests because Presbyterian clergy had not been episcopally ordained [thus, in some eyes rendering the marriages at which they officiated invalid]. The Presbytery of Laggan, County Donegal, as early as 1673, complained that marriages conducted by its ministers were regarded as ‘fornication’. The Presbytery decided that marriage should always be celebrated in the presence of the congregation [Laggan Presbytery Minutes, Nov-Jan, 1673-74]. Even so, some did go to the bishop or rector to be married to avoid the obloquium that followed marriage in their own church.The ‘Sacramental Test Act’ of 1704, added further insult to Presbyterians, and they faced discrimination, unable to enter parliament or hold any office under the crown. More galling, perhaps, than these restrictions, was the fact that Presbyterian ministers had no status in the eyes of the law. In 1712, the Reverend John McBride [Belfast] in his ‘Vindication of Marriages as solemnized by Presbyterians’ complained of episcopal attacks on Presbyterian marriages and condemned episcopal clergy for demanding and taking fees in respect of marriages they declared to be invalid [marriage dues appear to have been one important source of income for the clergy of the Church of Ireland in this period]. Presbyterian ministers continued to conduct marriages for the majority of their flock in their own churches and they followed the form and practice of the Church of Scotland. A ‘Bill of Indemnity’ of 1737 gave indemnity from prosecution in ecclesiastical courts to Presbyterian marriage contracts. Marriages by Presbyterian ministers of their own members was legalised in 1782 but marriages between a Presbyterian and a member of another denomination only became legal in 1845 [John Barkley, ‘Marriage and the Presbyterian Tradition’, Ulster Folklife, Volume 39, 1993 ps. 29-40].Elwyn
From: "mjumpherson@..." <mjumpherson@...>
Sent: Sunday, 6 October 2013, 13:47
Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] RE: Index to Deputy Keeper of Public Records DublinThanks Elwyn.The 1802 marriage was for a John Paul and Mary Campbell. My John Paul lived in Elginny Townland near Ballymena and Campbells lived next door. My John would have been 25 IF this was his marriage.Similarly, Moses Paul was married in 1806 to Martha Gallagher. My Moses Paul would have been 22 IF this was his marriage. "Moses Paul" was a more common name in Antrim than in other parts of Ireland. Although I cannot find any Gallaghers in Antrim in online resources, there was a Gallagher family from Ireland (I don't know their origin) who settled near the Paul family here in Canada.So you can see why my curiosity was aroused when I saw these marriages in Dublin.Another question/scenario: IF a Presbyterian married a Catholic circa 1806, ie. outside of their faith- would they have to go to Dublin to get a marriage license because a Minister or Parish Priest would not marry them at home? Maybe this was the case above?
---In email@example.com, <elwynsoutter@...> wrote:I am 95% certain the books themselves were destroyed in the 1922 fire, and only these indexes now survive, but you could check with National Archives in Dublin (which replaced the PRO). They should know. Contact details on this link:http://www.nationalarchives.ie/
From: "mjumpherson@..." <mjumpherson@...>
Sent: Saturday, 5 October 2013, 13:43
Subject: [Mid-AntrimGenealogy] Index to Deputy Keeper of Public Records DublinIn the "Appendix to the 30th Report of the Deputy Keeper of Public Records in Ireland, 1899" is an INDEX to Grants, Books and Wills 1800-1858 that includes Marriage Licenses. I presume this is for Dublin, only, BUT I have a page from that book that gives a marriage record for a John PAUL in 1802 and a Moses PAUL in 1806 that notes a specific page number. (My Pauls were from Lisbreen, Co. Antrim and many were named "Moses" and "John". My Moses and John's marriages would fit perfectly with these records in Dublin)Q.- where do I find the "Book" with the actual page number and would it give more details for the 2 marriage licenses, ie. location/residence?Thanks.
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