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Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?

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  • Tim Phillips
    from Tim P (UK) Please excuse a quibble - I don t usually nit-pick on someone s post, but it s Brinell (not Brunel) Hardness tester. Just in case someone
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 1, 2011
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      from Tim P (UK)
      Please excuse a 'quibble' - I don't usually nit-pick on someone's post,
      but it's Brinell (not Brunel) Hardness tester. Just in case someone
      wishes to explore the technique. You need a special diamond point tho.
      regards
      Tim



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Randall Buck
      Hi Geo, Mystery solved ! That was fun. I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used was set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Geo,

        Mystery solved ! That was fun.

        I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used was
        set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a field
        of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.

        The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
        machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened keyways
        or to identify work hardened surfaces.

        I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?

        Randall




        -----Original Message-----
        From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
        Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
        Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
        To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?



        Thanks Randall.

        Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in a
        search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
        then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
        microscopes", an identical looking one came up.

        From this I could get a brand name- KING.

        A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
        Brunel Hardness Tester and
        Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60 years
        now!

        Although the topology of the present version microscope seems identical,
        no
        amount of searching came up with more info on
        the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no clear
        pictures have been found (yet).

        The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
        indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
        the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.

        King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence the
        700+
        USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.

        We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round depression
        in
        the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.

        Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
        speed
        to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
        one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped in
        and
        mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
        connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this, scouring
        loads of pictures would have been impossible.

        That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.

        http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/

        Great fun.

        Geo

        ----- Original Message -----


        MARKETPLACE
        Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
        Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • GEOelectronics@netscape.com
        Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants to change reticle to reticule which is a ladies purse. The indenter is clever and
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants to change "reticle" to "reticule"
          which is a ladies purse.

          The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into
          the metal's surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use different diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring range of the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is applied, all determine which chart is used, details here:
          http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf

          All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm markings while my tests indicate
          my markings are 0-6 major divisions with .005" markings.

          This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.

          All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by Internet study.

          Slow, but fun.

          Geo

          --- rbuck@... wrote:

          From: "Randall Buck" <rbuck@...>
          To: <Microscope@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
          Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:51:25 -0700

          Hi Geo,

          Mystery solved ! That was fun.

          I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used was
          set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a field
          of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.

          The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
          machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened keyways
          or to identify work hardened surfaces.

          I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?

          Randall




          -----Original Message-----
          From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
          Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
          Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
          To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?



          Thanks Randall.

          Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in a
          search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
          then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
          microscopes", an identical looking one came up.

          From this I could get a brand name- KING.

          A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
          Brunel Hardness Tester and
          Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60 years
          now!

          Although the topology of the present version microscope seems identical,
          no
          amount of searching came up with more info on
          the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no clear
          pictures have been found (yet).

          The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
          indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
          the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.

          King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence the
          700+
          USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.

          We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round depression
          in
          the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.

          Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
          speed
          to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
          one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped in
          and
          mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
          connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this, scouring
          loads of pictures would have been impossible.

          That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.

          http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/

          Great fun.

          Geo

          ----- Original Message -----


          MARKETPLACE
          Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
          Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

          Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links









          _____________________________________________________________
          Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
        • geoelectronics
          Seems the King Brinell microscope IS 0-6 mm on the scale. Using a good quality digital caliper instead of a cheap mm tape ruler made the difference. The ruler
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Seems the King Brinell microscope IS 0-6 mm on the scale.
            Using a good quality digital caliper instead of a cheap mm tape ruler made the difference. The ruler was inconsistent depending on which portion you view.

            PS I am changing around my Yahoo ID to try to eliminate spam filter problems on this group. Hope that helped. Geo

            --- In Microscope@yahoogroups.com, <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants to change "reticle" to "reticule"
            > which is a ladies purse.
            >
            > The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into
            > the metal's surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use different diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring range of the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is applied, all determine which chart is used, details here:
            > http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf
            >
            > All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm markings while my tests indicate
            > my markings are 0-6 major divisions with .005" markings.
            >
            > This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.
            >
            > All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by Internet study.
            >
            > Slow, but fun.
            >
            > Geo
            >
            > --- rbuck@... wrote:
            >
            > From: "Randall Buck" <rbuck@...>
            > To: <Microscope@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
            > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:51:25 -0700
            >
            > Hi Geo,
            >
            > Mystery solved ! That was fun.
            >
            > I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used was
            > set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a field
            > of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.
            >
            > The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
            > machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened keyways
            > or to identify work hardened surfaces.
            >
            > I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?
            >
            > Randall
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
            > Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
            > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
            > To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks Randall.
            >
            > Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in a
            > search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
            > then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
            > microscopes", an identical looking one came up.
            >
            > From this I could get a brand name- KING.
            >
            > A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
            > Brunel Hardness Tester and
            > Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60 years
            > now!
            >
            > Although the topology of the present version microscope seems identical,
            > no
            > amount of searching came up with more info on
            > the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no clear
            > pictures have been found (yet).
            >
            > The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
            > indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
            > the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.
            >
            > King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence the
            > 700+
            > USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.
            >
            > We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round depression
            > in
            > the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.
            >
            > Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
            > speed
            > to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
            > one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped in
            > and
            > mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
            > connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this, scouring
            > loads of pictures would have been impossible.
            >
            > That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.
            >
            > http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/
            >
            > Great fun.
            >
            > Geo
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
            >
            > MARKETPLACE
            > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
            > Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
            >
            > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > _____________________________________________________________
            > Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
            >
          • David L. Jones
            Brinell hardness testing is aimed at materials with widely different microstructures within the material. Cast irons are a good example. The metal ball - or
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Brinell hardness testing is aimed at materials with widely different
              microstructures within the material. Cast irons are a good example. The
              metal ball - or carbide ball - is large enough to cover these various
              structures so it averages out the hardness of each component giving a
              better idea of the materials "hardness" on a more macroscale. Once you
              push the indenter into the material, then you measure the indentations
              diameter to get a measure of hardness. The older viewers for the
              indentation would have a look-up table where you made the measurement,
              looked up the value in the table and then looked over at what that meant
              in Brinell hardness. You had to know what your ball was and what your load
              was to know what measured value corresponded to what hardness...

              dj

              On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, GEOelectronics@... wrote:

              > Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants
              > to change "reticle" to "reticule" which is a ladies purse.
              >
              > The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a
              > measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into the metal's
              > surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use different
              > diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring range of
              > the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal
              > hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is
              > applied, all determine which chart is used, details here:
              > http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf
              >
              > All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm
              > markings while my tests indicate my markings are 0-6 major divisions
              > with .005" markings.
              >
              > This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.
              >
              > All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by
              > Internet study.
              >
              > Slow, but fun.
              >
              > Geo
              >
              > --- rbuck@... wrote:
              >
              > From: "Randall Buck" <rbuck@...>
              > To: <Microscope@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
              > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:51:25 -0700
              >
              > Hi Geo,
              >
              > Mystery solved ! That was fun.
              >
              > I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used was
              > set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a field
              > of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.
              >
              > The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
              > machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened keyways
              > or to identify work hardened surfaces.
              >
              > I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?
              >
              > Randall
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
              > Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
              > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
              > To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks Randall.
              >
              > Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in a
              > search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
              > then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
              > microscopes", an identical looking one came up.
              >
              > From this I could get a brand name- KING.
              >
              > A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
              > Brunel Hardness Tester and
              > Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60 years
              > now!
              >
              > Although the topology of the present version microscope seems identical,
              > no
              > amount of searching came up with more info on
              > the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no clear
              > pictures have been found (yet).
              >
              > The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
              > indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
              > the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.
              >
              > King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence the
              > 700+
              > USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.
              >
              > We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round depression
              > in
              > the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.
              >
              > Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
              > speed
              > to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
              > one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped in
              > and
              > mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
              > connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this, scouring
              > loads of pictures would have been impossible.
              >
              > That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.
              >
              > http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/
              >
              > Great fun.
              >
              > Geo
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              >
              >
              > MARKETPLACE
              > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
              > Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
              >
              > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > _____________________________________________________________
              > Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • J. Forster
              From what I vaguely remember, Brinell hardness could be calculated from other properties of the nmaterial (yield stress). This is not the case with Rockwell
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                From what I vaguely remember, Brinell hardness could be calculated from
                other properties of the nmaterial (yield stress). This is not the case
                with Rockwell Hardness as I remember.

                Brinell was more a "lab" test v. Rockwell which was more a "shop" test.

                Best,

                -John

                ================

                > Brinell hardness testing is aimed at materials with widely different
                > microstructures within the material. Cast irons are a good example. The
                > metal ball - or carbide ball - is large enough to cover these various
                > structures so it averages out the hardness of each component giving a
                > better idea of the materials "hardness" on a more macroscale. Once you
                > push the indenter into the material, then you measure the indentations
                > diameter to get a measure of hardness. The older viewers for the
                > indentation would have a look-up table where you made the measurement,
                > looked up the value in the table and then looked over at what that meant
                > in Brinell hardness. You had to know what your ball was and what your load
                > was to know what measured value corresponded to what hardness...
                >
                > dj
                >
                > On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, GEOelectronics@... wrote:
                >
                >> Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants
                >> to change "reticle" to "reticule" which is a ladies purse.
                >>
                >> The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a
                >> measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into the metal's
                >> surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use different
                >> diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring range of
                >> the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal
                >> hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is
                >> applied, all determine which chart is used, details here:
                >> http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf
                >>
                >> All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm
                >> markings while my tests indicate my markings are 0-6 major divisions
                >> with .005" markings.
                >>
                >> This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.
                >>
                >> All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by
                >> Internet study.
                >>
                >> Slow, but fun.
                >>
                >> Geo
                >>
                >> --- rbuck@... wrote:
                >>
                >> From: "Randall Buck" <rbuck@...>
                >> To: <Microscope@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
                >> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:51:25 -0700
                >>
                >> Hi Geo,
                >>
                >> Mystery solved ! That was fun.
                >>
                >> I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used
                >> was
                >> set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a
                >> field
                >> of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.
                >>
                >> The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
                >> machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened
                >> keyways
                >> or to identify work hardened surfaces.
                >>
                >> I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?
                >>
                >> Randall
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
                >> Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
                >> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
                >> To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Thanks Randall.
                >>
                >> Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in a
                >> search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
                >> then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
                >> microscopes", an identical looking one came up.
                >>
                >> From this I could get a brand name- KING.
                >>
                >> A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
                >> Brunel Hardness Tester and
                >> Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60 years
                >> now!
                >>
                >> Although the topology of the present version microscope seems identical,
                >> no
                >> amount of searching came up with more info on
                >> the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no
                >> clear
                >> pictures have been found (yet).
                >>
                >> The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
                >> indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
                >> the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.
                >>
                >> King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence the
                >> 700+
                >> USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.
                >>
                >> We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round
                >> depression
                >> in
                >> the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.
                >>
                >> Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
                >> speed
                >> to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
                >> one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped in
                >> and
                >> mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
                >> connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this, scouring
                >> loads of pictures would have been impossible.
                >>
                >> That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.
                >>
                >> http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/
                >>
                >> Great fun.
                >>
                >> Geo
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >>
                >>
                >> MARKETPLACE
                >> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
                >> Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
                >>
                >> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> _____________________________________________________________
                >> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • Randall Buck
                Hi Geo, I am guessing that the original King indenter doesn t look like the bench model you found on Google. The King was made for field testing, situations
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 2, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Geo,

                  I am guessing that the original King indenter doesn't look like the bench
                  model you found on Google. The King was made for field testing, situations
                  where it is impractical to bring the test object into the lab AND it was
                  made for inspecting hard to reach surfaces -- keyways and such. The bench
                  indenter is basically like the one I used to use; it is pretty much for
                  small, or at least portable, test samples.


                  Randall

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
                  Behalf Of geoelectronics
                  Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 10:01 AM
                  To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Microscope] Re: ID my field microscope?



                  Seems the King Brinell microscope IS 0-6 mm on the scale.
                  Using a good quality digital caliper instead of a cheap mm tape ruler made
                  the difference. The ruler was inconsistent depending on which portion you
                  view.

                  PS I am changing around my Yahoo ID to try to eliminate spam filter
                  problems on this group. Hope that helped. Geo

                  --- In Microscope@yahoogroups.com, <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants
                  to change "reticle" to "reticule"
                  > which is a ladies purse.
                  >
                  > The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a
                  measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into
                  > the metal's surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use
                  different diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring
                  range of the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal
                  hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is applied,
                  all determine which chart is used, details here:
                  > http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf
                  >
                  > All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm
                  markings while my tests indicate
                  > my markings are 0-6 major divisions with .005" markings.
                  >
                  > This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.
                  >
                  > All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by
                  Internet study.
                  >
                  > Slow, but fun.
                  >
                  > Geo
                  >
                  > --- rbuck@... wrote:



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David L. Jones
                  Both are very much shop tests - you choose the hardness scale based on what the material is you are testing. Brinell is used mainly in castings. But the real
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 2, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Both are very much "shop" tests - you choose the hardness scale based on
                    what the material is you are testing. Brinell is used mainly in castings.
                    But the real selection rationale is the widely varying microstructure of
                    the base material.

                    There are no hardness scales that can either be used to accurately predict
                    material properties nor the other way around. Hardness has been used
                    (somewhat incorrectly) for predicting tensile strength for many years.
                    Doing that is really only applicable to plain carbon steels and the
                    relationship is empirical. Even within plain carbon steels the
                    relationship between hardness and tensile strength is not straightforward.
                    Essentially, it can give you a "seat of the pants" idea of what the
                    tensile strength may be in plain carbon steels. This has been grossly
                    misused. I have seen applied across alloys in design documents that it
                    does not apply to...

                    dj

                    On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, J. Forster wrote:

                    > From what I vaguely remember, Brinell hardness could be calculated from
                    > other properties of the nmaterial (yield stress). This is not the case
                    > with Rockwell Hardness as I remember.
                    >
                    > Brinell was more a "lab" test v. Rockwell which was more a "shop" test.
                    >
                    > Best,
                    >
                    > -John
                    >
                    > ================
                    >
                    >> Brinell hardness testing is aimed at materials with widely different
                    >> microstructures within the material. Cast irons are a good example. The
                    >> metal ball - or carbide ball - is large enough to cover these various
                    >> structures so it averages out the hardness of each component giving a
                    >> better idea of the materials "hardness" on a more macroscale. Once you
                    >> push the indenter into the material, then you measure the indentations
                    >> diameter to get a measure of hardness. The older viewers for the
                    >> indentation would have a look-up table where you made the measurement,
                    >> looked up the value in the table and then looked over at what that meant
                    >> in Brinell hardness. You had to know what your ball was and what your load
                    >> was to know what measured value corresponded to what hardness...
                    >>
                    >> dj
                    >>
                    >> On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, GEOelectronics@... wrote:
                    >>
                    >>> Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants
                    >>> to change "reticle" to "reticule" which is a ladies purse.
                    >>>
                    >>> The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a
                    >>> measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into the metal's
                    >>> surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use different
                    >>> diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring range of
                    >>> the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal
                    >>> hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is
                    >>> applied, all determine which chart is used, details here:
                    >>> http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf
                    >>>
                    >>> All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm
                    >>> markings while my tests indicate my markings are 0-6 major divisions
                    >>> with .005" markings.
                    >>>
                    >>> This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.
                    >>>
                    >>> All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by
                    >>> Internet study.
                    >>>
                    >>> Slow, but fun.
                    >>>
                    >>> Geo
                    >>>
                    >>> --- rbuck@... wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> From: "Randall Buck" <rbuck@...>
                    >>> To: <Microscope@yahoogroups.com>
                    >>> Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
                    >>> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:51:25 -0700
                    >>>
                    >>> Hi Geo,
                    >>>
                    >>> Mystery solved ! That was fun.
                    >>>
                    >>> I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I used
                    >>> was
                    >>> set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a
                    >>> field
                    >>> of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.
                    >>>
                    >>> The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
                    >>> machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened
                    >>> keyways
                    >>> or to identify work hardened surfaces.
                    >>>
                    >>> I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?
                    >>>
                    >>> Randall
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> -----Original Message-----
                    >>> From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
                    >>> Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
                    >>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
                    >>> To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Thanks Randall.
                    >>>
                    >>> Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in a
                    >>> search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
                    >>> then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
                    >>> microscopes", an identical looking one came up.
                    >>>
                    >>> From this I could get a brand name- KING.
                    >>>
                    >>> A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
                    >>> Brunel Hardness Tester and
                    >>> Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60 years
                    >>> now!
                    >>>
                    >>> Although the topology of the present version microscope seems identical,
                    >>> no
                    >>> amount of searching came up with more info on
                    >>> the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no
                    >>> clear
                    >>> pictures have been found (yet).
                    >>>
                    >>> The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
                    >>> indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
                    >>> the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.
                    >>>
                    >>> King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence the
                    >>> 700+
                    >>> USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.
                    >>>
                    >>> We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round
                    >>> depression
                    >>> in
                    >>> the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.
                    >>>
                    >>> Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
                    >>> speed
                    >>> to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
                    >>> one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped in
                    >>> and
                    >>> mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
                    >>> connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this, scouring
                    >>> loads of pictures would have been impossible.
                    >>>
                    >>> That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.
                    >>>
                    >>> http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/
                    >>>
                    >>> Great fun.
                    >>>
                    >>> Geo
                    >>>
                    >>> ----- Original Message -----
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> MARKETPLACE
                    >>> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on -
                    >>> Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
                    >>>
                    >>> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use.
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> _____________________________________________________________
                    >>> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Randall Buck
                    Hardness testing, whether via Brinell or Rockwell only samples a small layer near the surface of the test material. There is no guarantee that the bulk of the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 2, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hardness testing, whether via Brinell or Rockwell only samples a small layer
                      near the surface of the test material. There is no guarantee that the bulk
                      of the material is homogenous with that surface. Ultimate yield strength
                      tests the entire volume of the sample.

                      Randall



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
                      Behalf Of David L. Jones
                      Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 10:57 AM
                      To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?



                      Both are very much "shop" tests - you choose the hardness scale based on
                      what the material is you are testing. Brinell is used mainly in castings.
                      But the real selection rationale is the widely varying microstructure of
                      the base material.

                      There are no hardness scales that can either be used to accurately predict
                      material properties nor the other way around. Hardness has been used
                      (somewhat incorrectly) for predicting tensile strength for many years.
                      Doing that is really only applicable to plain carbon steels and the
                      relationship is empirical. Even within plain carbon steels the
                      relationship between hardness and tensile strength is not straightforward.
                      Essentially, it can give you a "seat of the pants" idea of what the
                      tensile strength may be in plain carbon steels. This has been grossly
                      misused. I have seen applied across alloys in design documents that it
                      does not apply to...

                      dj

                      On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, J. Forster wrote:

                      > From what I vaguely remember, Brinell hardness could be calculated from
                      > other properties of the nmaterial (yield stress). This is not the case
                      > with Rockwell Hardness as I remember.
                      >
                      > Brinell was more a "lab" test v. Rockwell which was more a "shop" test.
                      >
                      > Best,
                      >
                      > -John
                      >
                      > ================
                      >
                      >> Brinell hardness testing is aimed at materials with widely different
                      >> microstructures within the material. Cast irons are a good example. The
                      >> metal ball - or carbide ball - is large enough to cover these various
                      >> structures so it averages out the hardness of each component giving a
                      >> better idea of the materials "hardness" on a more macroscale. Once you
                      >> push the indenter into the material, then you measure the indentations
                      >> diameter to get a measure of hardness. The older viewers for the
                      >> indentation would have a look-up table where you made the measurement,
                      >> looked up the value in the table and then looked over at what that
                      meant
                      >> in Brinell hardness. You had to know what your ball was and what your
                      load
                      >> was to know what measured value corresponded to what hardness...
                      >>
                      >> dj
                      >>
                      >> On Sat, 1 Oct 2011, GEOelectronics@... wrote:
                      >>
                      >>> Yes Brinell, sorry. Spellcheck wants to change it to Brunel, and wants
                      >>> to change "reticle" to "reticule" which is a ladies purse.
                      >>>
                      >>> The indenter is clever and simple. A hydraulic ram is hand pumped to a
                      >>> measured force, driving a hardened 10 mm steel ball into the metal's
                      >>> surface, making a dimple. Some harder or softer metals use different
                      >>> diameter and hardness balls to keep the dimple within measuring range
                      of
                      >>> the microscope. Charts are used to convert dimple diameter to metal
                      >>> hardness. Factors of force, ball size and shape, time pressure is
                      >>> applied, all determine which chart is used, details here:
                      >>> http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~ozer/Lab%202-Hardness.pdf
                      >>>
                      >>> All modern testers use a microscope with 0-6 mm reticle with 0.1 mm
                      >>> markings while my tests indicate my markings are 0-6 major divisions
                      >>> with .005" markings.
                      >>>
                      >>> This testing was careful but today it will be done again to verify.
                      >>>
                      >>> All this was unknown to me before the last few days, revealed by
                      >>> Internet study.
                      >>>
                      >>> Slow, but fun.
                      >>>
                      >>> Geo
                      >>>
                      >>> --- rbuck@... wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>> From: "Randall Buck" <rbuck@...>
                      >>> To: <Microscope@yahoogroups.com>
                      >>> Subject: RE: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
                      >>> Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:51:25 -0700
                      >>>
                      >>> Hi Geo,
                      >>>
                      >>> Mystery solved ! That was fun.
                      >>>
                      >>> I used a Brinell hardness tester at work many moons ago. The one I
                      used
                      >>> was
                      >>> set up for flat (semiconductor ) surfaces and did not have as wide a
                      >>> field
                      >>> of view, i.e., it used higher magnification.
                      >>>
                      >>> The unique feature of yours is that it can be used in tight spaces on
                      >>> machinery in the field, presumably to spot for improperly hardened
                      >>> keyways
                      >>> or to identify work hardened surfaces.
                      >>>
                      >>> I wonder what the actual indenter looks like?
                      >>>
                      >>> Randall
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> -----Original Message-----
                      >>> From: Microscope@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Microscope@yahoogroups.com]On
                      >>> Behalf Of Geo>K0FF
                      >>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 6:42 PM
                      >>> To: Microscope@yahoogroups.com
                      >>> Subject: Re: [Microscope] ID my field microscope?
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> Thanks Randall.
                      >>>
                      >>> Today the internet yielded the secret after all these years.Typing in
                      a
                      >>> search for the general characteristics and accessing IMAGES,
                      >>> then looking through hundreds and hundreds of similarly designed "shop
                      >>> microscopes", an identical looking one came up.
                      >>>
                      >>> From this I could get a brand name- KING.
                      >>>
                      >>> A subsequent search for KING MICROSCOPE came up with KING Instruments,
                      >>> Brunel Hardness Tester and
                      >>> Brunel Hardness Tester Microscope. They have made this item for 60
                      years
                      >>> now!
                      >>>
                      >>> Although the topology of the present version microscope seems
                      identical,
                      >>> no
                      >>> amount of searching came up with more info on
                      >>> the scale. Evidently the newer versions are using a mm scale, but no
                      >>> clear
                      >>> pictures have been found (yet).
                      >>>
                      >>> The current version even has an identical looking eyepiece, which does
                      >>> indeed seem to follow the Huygens design, with
                      >>> the field lens element clearly showing curvature towards the bottom.
                      >>>
                      >>> King adverts indicate 20X, and calibration is NIST traceable (hence
                      the
                      >>> 700+
                      >>> USD price tag) so your calculations were right on.
                      >>>
                      >>> We learned that a base stand is what is missing from the round
                      >>> depression
                      >>> in
                      >>> the storage case, and contacted the factory for a replacement.
                      >>>
                      >>> Recently we recently came out of the dark ages here as far as connect
                      >>> speed
                      >>> to the internet, having been stuck with 28.8 K since day
                      >>> one due to our remote, rural location. The State of Missouri stepped
                      in
                      >>> and
                      >>> mandated we backwoods folks be first to enjoy fiber optics
                      >>> connection to the home. Without high speed internet like this,
                      scouring
                      >>> loads of pictures would have been impossible.
                      >>>
                      >>> That pertinent King's information has been uploaded to the photo link.
                      >>>
                      >>> http://www.qsl.net/k/k0ff//Measuring%20Field%20Microscope/
                      >>>
                      >>> Great fun.
                      >>>
                      >>> Geo
                      >>>
                      >>> ----- Original Message -----
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> MARKETPLACE
                      >>> Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're
                      on -
                      >>> Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.
                      >>>
                      >>> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use.
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> __________________________________________________________
                      >>> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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