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Re: [MN] Sauerkraut in Harsch fermenter

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  • mr.vinegar
    Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that can be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring loaded rubber
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 29, 1936
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      Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that can be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring loaded rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside pressure?

      I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope the seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody may take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.

      I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it when I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the bag and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is not the way to go.
      Roger


      --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...> wrote:
      >
      > Roger & All,
      >
      > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the Harsch
      > crock.
      >
      > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar with a
      > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
      > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
      > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and cleaned
      > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from the
      > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
      > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the initial
      > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked down
      > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds like
      > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second style is a
      > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be very
      > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a very nice
      > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the vessel.
      >
      > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of them are
      > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
      > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough vacuum
      > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
      > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you could
      > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or at
      > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic like that.
      >
      > Jason
      >
      > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my Harsch
      > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the problem rests
      > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase. When the
      > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts to
      > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
      > >
      > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they instructed me to
      > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel but do
      > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the batch
      > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3 times by
      > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but not as
      > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was allowing air
      > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
      > >
      > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
      > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more slowly.
      > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100% anaerobic
      > > (when making sauerkraut).
      > > Roger
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Jason Rumohr
      Hi Roger & All, I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for fermenting things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don t recall where I read this,
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 2, 1936
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        Hi Roger & All,

        I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for fermenting
        things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll post
        it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
        fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
        reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an acid
        to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches of
        kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems to
        be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level to
        be relatively insignificant.

        Jason

        On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that can
        > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring loaded
        > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the
        > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would
        > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside pressure?
        >
        > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope the
        > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody may
        > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
        >
        > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it when
        > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was
        > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the bag
        > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is not
        > the way to go.
        > Roger
        >
        > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Roger & All,
        > >
        > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the Harsch
        > > crock.
        > >
        > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar with
        > a
        > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
        > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
        > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
        > cleaned
        > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from the
        > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
        > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the initial
        > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked
        > down
        > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds
        > like
        > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second style is
        > a
        > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be
        > very
        > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a very
        > nice
        > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the vessel.
        > >
        > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of them are
        > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
        > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough vacuum
        > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
        > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you could
        > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or at
        > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic like
        > that.
        > >
        > > Jason
        > >
        > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > **
        >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my Harsch
        > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the problem
        > rests
        > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase. When the
        > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts to
        > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
        > > >
        > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they instructed
        > me to
        > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel
        > but do
        > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the batch
        > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3 times
        > by
        > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but not
        > as
        > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was allowing
        > air
        > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
        > > >
        > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
        > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more
        > slowly.
        > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100% anaerobic
        > > > (when making sauerkraut).
        > > > Roger
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • mr.vinegar
        Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by many
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 2, 1936
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          Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by many professionals that SS is OK for vinegar fermentation. So far, I have not had any problems associated with the Stailess Steel degrading. In fact, the SS that I have has been manufactured by a very reputable company that makes many SS vessels for the fermentation industry. I have been very careful to try and notice if degradtion is taking place andf have found no evidence at this time.
          cheers
          Roger

          --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Roger & All,
          >
          > I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for fermenting
          > things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll post
          > it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
          > fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
          > reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an acid
          > to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches of
          > kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems to
          > be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level to
          > be relatively insignificant.
          >
          > Jason
          >
          > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that can
          > > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring loaded
          > > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the
          > > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would
          > > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside pressure?
          > >
          > > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope the
          > > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody may
          > > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
          > >
          > > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it when
          > > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was
          > > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the bag
          > > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is not
          > > the way to go.
          > > Roger
          > >
          > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Roger & All,
          > > >
          > > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the Harsch
          > > > crock.
          > > >
          > > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar with
          > > a
          > > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
          > > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
          > > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
          > > cleaned
          > > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from the
          > > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
          > > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the initial
          > > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked
          > > down
          > > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds
          > > like
          > > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second style is
          > > a
          > > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be
          > > very
          > > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a very
          > > nice
          > > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the vessel.
          > > >
          > > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of them are
          > > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
          > > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough vacuum
          > > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
          > > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you could
          > > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or at
          > > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic like
          > > that.
          > > >
          > > > Jason
          > > >
          > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > **
          > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my Harsch
          > > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the problem
          > > rests
          > > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase. When the
          > > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts to
          > > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
          > > > >
          > > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they instructed
          > > me to
          > > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel
          > > but do
          > > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the batch
          > > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3 times
          > > by
          > > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but not
          > > as
          > > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was allowing
          > > air
          > > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
          > > > >
          > > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
          > > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more
          > > slowly.
          > > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100% anaerobic
          > > > > (when making sauerkraut).
          > > > > Roger
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • David Harkness
          My first couple of batches of kraut were done under airlock in one of my wine buckets. I observed very little off gassing and little suction at the airlock
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 2, 1936
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            My first couple of batches of kraut were done under airlock in one of my
            wine buckets. I observed very little off gassing and little suction at the
            airlock (three piece type air lock). Now I just do the ferments in glass
            jars and keep the kraut submerged. It works just as well for me.

            If you really want to do it under airlock, you might try using a blow-off
            tube. (Beer makers use them a lot.) Basically, it's just a plastic tube
            with one end attached to the fermentor, and the other end submerged in a
            jug of water at a lower elevation. For example, you might have your
            fermenter on a high counter and a 2 liter bottle of water on the floor with
            the end of the tube submerged in the water. It would take a lot of suction
            to draw the water up 3 or 4 feet.

            You can Google "beer blow off tube" to see examples.
            On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:11 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International
            > awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by
            > many professionals that SS is OK for vinegar fermentation. So far, I have
            > not had any problems associated with the Stailess Steel degrading. In fact,
            > the SS that I have has been manufactured by a very reputable company that
            > makes many SS vessels for the fermentation industry. I have been very
            > careful to try and notice if degradtion is taking place andf have found no
            > evidence at this time.
            > cheers
            >
            > Roger
            >
            > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Roger & All,
            > >
            > > I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for
            > fermenting
            > > things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll
            > post
            > > it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
            > > fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
            > > reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an
            > acid
            > > to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches of
            > > kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems to
            > > be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level to
            > > be relatively insignificant.
            > >
            > > Jason
            > >
            > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > **
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that
            > can
            > > > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring
            > loaded
            > > > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the
            > > > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would
            > > > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside
            > pressure?
            > > >
            > > > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope
            > the
            > > > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody
            > may
            > > > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
            > > >
            > > > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it
            > when
            > > > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was
            > > > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the
            > bag
            > > > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is
            > not
            > > > the way to go.
            > > > Roger
            > > >
            > > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Roger & All,
            > > > >
            > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the
            > Harsch
            > > > > crock.
            > > > >
            > > > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar
            > with
            > > > a
            > > > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
            > > > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
            > > > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
            > > > cleaned
            > > > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from
            > the
            > > > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
            > > > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the
            > initial
            > > > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked
            > > > down
            > > > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds
            > > > like
            > > > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second
            > style is
            > > > a
            > > > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be
            > > > very
            > > > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a
            > very
            > > > nice
            > > > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the
            > vessel.
            > > > >
            > > > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of
            > them are
            > > > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
            > > > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough
            > vacuum
            > > > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
            > > > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you
            > could
            > > > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or
            > at
            > > > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic
            > like
            > > > that.
            > > > >
            > > > > Jason
            > > > >
            > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > > **
            > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my
            > Harsch
            > > > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the
            > problem
            > > > rests
            > > > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase.
            > When the
            > > > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts
            > to
            > > > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they
            > instructed
            > > > me to
            > > > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel
            > > > but do
            > > > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the
            > batch
            > > > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3
            > times
            > > > by
            > > > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but
            > not
            > > > as
            > > > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was
            > allowing
            > > > air
            > > > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
            > > > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more
            > > > slowly.
            > > > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100%
            > anaerobic
            > > > > > (when making sauerkraut).
            > > > > > Roger
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Regards,
            David Harkness


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mr.vinegar
            Wonderful idea! This is why I love these forums. Great ideas in the most simplistic form. A blow Off Tube . I ll certainly encorporate that idea for my next
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 2, 1936
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              Wonderful idea! This is why I love these forums. Great ideas in the most simplistic form. A "blow Off Tube". I'll certainly encorporate that idea for my next batch. Thanks a bunch David.
              cheers
              Roger

              --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, David Harkness <davidharkness@...> wrote:
              >
              > My first couple of batches of kraut were done under airlock in one of my
              > wine buckets. I observed very little off gassing and little suction at the
              > airlock (three piece type air lock). Now I just do the ferments in glass
              > jars and keep the kraut submerged. It works just as well for me.
              >
              > If you really want to do it under airlock, you might try using a blow-off
              > tube. (Beer makers use them a lot.) Basically, it's just a plastic tube
              > with one end attached to the fermentor, and the other end submerged in a
              > jug of water at a lower elevation. For example, you might have your
              > fermenter on a high counter and a 2 liter bottle of water on the floor with
              > the end of the tube submerged in the water. It would take a lot of suction
              > to draw the water up 3 or 4 feet.
              >
              > You can Google "beer blow off tube" to see examples.
              > On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 2:11 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International
              > > awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by
              > > many professionals that SS is OK for vinegar fermentation. So far, I have
              > > not had any problems associated with the Stailess Steel degrading. In fact,
              > > the SS that I have has been manufactured by a very reputable company that
              > > makes many SS vessels for the fermentation industry. I have been very
              > > careful to try and notice if degradtion is taking place andf have found no
              > > evidence at this time.
              > > cheers
              > >
              > > Roger
              > >
              > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Roger & All,
              > > >
              > > > I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for
              > > fermenting
              > > > things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll
              > > post
              > > > it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
              > > > fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
              > > > reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an
              > > acid
              > > > to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches of
              > > > kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems to
              > > > be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level to
              > > > be relatively insignificant.
              > > >
              > > > Jason
              > > >
              > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > **
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that
              > > can
              > > > > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring
              > > loaded
              > > > > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the
              > > > > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would
              > > > > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside
              > > pressure?
              > > > >
              > > > > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope
              > > the
              > > > > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody
              > > may
              > > > > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
              > > > >
              > > > > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it
              > > when
              > > > > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was
              > > > > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the
              > > bag
              > > > > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is
              > > not
              > > > > the way to go.
              > > > > Roger
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Roger & All,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the
              > > Harsch
              > > > > > crock.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar
              > > with
              > > > > a
              > > > > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
              > > > > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
              > > > > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
              > > > > cleaned
              > > > > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from
              > > the
              > > > > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
              > > > > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the
              > > initial
              > > > > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked
              > > > > down
              > > > > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds
              > > > > like
              > > > > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second
              > > style is
              > > > > a
              > > > > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be
              > > > > very
              > > > > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a
              > > very
              > > > > nice
              > > > > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the
              > > vessel.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of
              > > them are
              > > > > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
              > > > > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough
              > > vacuum
              > > > > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
              > > > > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you
              > > could
              > > > > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or
              > > at
              > > > > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic
              > > like
              > > > > that.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Jason
              > > > > >
              > > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > > **
              > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my
              > > Harsch
              > > > > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the
              > > problem
              > > > > rests
              > > > > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase.
              > > When the
              > > > > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts
              > > to
              > > > > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they
              > > instructed
              > > > > me to
              > > > > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel
              > > > > but do
              > > > > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the
              > > batch
              > > > > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3
              > > times
              > > > > by
              > > > > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but
              > > not
              > > > > as
              > > > > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was
              > > allowing
              > > > > air
              > > > > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
              > > > > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more
              > > > > slowly.
              > > > > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100%
              > > anaerobic
              > > > > > > (when making sauerkraut).
              > > > > > > Roger
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Regards,
              > David Harkness
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Ellis Hein
              There are different alloys that are classified as Stainless Steel. One of which may be better than another for fermentation. Ellis ... From: mr.vinegar To:
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 3, 1936
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                There are different alloys that are classified as Stainless Steel. One of which may be better than another for fermentation.

                Ellis
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: mr.vinegar
                To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:11 PM
                Subject: Re: [MN] Sauerkraut in Harsch fermenter



                Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by many professionals that SS is OK for vinegar fermentation. So far, I have not had any problems associated with the Stailess Steel degrading. In fact, the SS that I have has been manufactured by a very reputable company that makes many SS vessels for the fermentation industry. I have been very careful to try and notice if degradtion is taking place andf have found no evidence at this time.
                cheers
                Roger

                --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Roger & All,
                >
                > I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for fermenting
                > things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll post
                > it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
                > fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
                > reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an acid
                > to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches of
                > kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems to
                > be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level to
                > be relatively insignificant.
                >
                > Jason
                >
                > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that can
                > > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring loaded
                > > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the
                > > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would
                > > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside pressure?
                > >
                > > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope the
                > > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody may
                > > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
                > >
                > > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it when
                > > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was
                > > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the bag
                > > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is not
                > > the way to go.
                > > Roger
                > >
                > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Roger & All,
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the Harsch
                > > > crock.
                > > >
                > > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar with
                > > a
                > > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
                > > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
                > > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
                > > cleaned
                > > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from the
                > > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
                > > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the initial
                > > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked
                > > down
                > > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds
                > > like
                > > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second style is
                > > a
                > > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be
                > > very
                > > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a very
                > > nice
                > > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the vessel.
                > > >
                > > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of them are
                > > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
                > > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough vacuum
                > > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
                > > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you could
                > > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or at
                > > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic like
                > > that.
                > > >
                > > > Jason
                > > >
                > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > **
                > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my Harsch
                > > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the problem
                > > rests
                > > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase. When the
                > > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts to
                > > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
                > > > >
                > > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they instructed
                > > me to
                > > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel
                > > but do
                > > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the batch
                > > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3 times
                > > by
                > > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but not
                > > as
                > > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was allowing
                > > air
                > > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
                > > > >
                > > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
                > > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more
                > > slowly.
                > > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100% anaerobic
                > > > > (when making sauerkraut).
                > > > > Roger
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Harkness
                That s true that many alloys are called stainless steel, and I ve seen some questionable metals labeled as stainless steel. If you buy a pot or other
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 3, 1936
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                  That's true that many alloys are called "stainless steel," and I've seen
                  some questionable metals labeled as stainless steel. If you buy a pot or
                  other container at a store, you probably won't know what the alloy is. If
                  you do find information about the alloy, look for the numbers 304, 316, or
                  316L. Those are considered good grades of SS for corrosion resistance.
                  There is an alloy that has even better corrosion resistance called
                  Hastelloy C, but you probably couldn't afford a pot made out of it.

                  The bad thing about SS is that it's not a very good heat conductor. You
                  will tend to get hot spots unless it has copper or aluminum sandwiched
                  between layers of SS. The same properties that make it corrosion resistant
                  make it a poor conductor.
                  Something to consider is that metals can leach out when exposed to an
                  aggressive environment for a long time. All SS contains chromium and
                  nickle which are probably toxic at some level (I'm no expert on that
                  subject.) Personally, I would feel better about using glass, glazed
                  ceramics, or high quality food grade plastic for long term exposure to food.
                  On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Ellis Hein <woodturnedart@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > There are different alloys that are classified as Stainless Steel. One of
                  > which may be better than another for fermentation.
                  >
                  > Ellis
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: mr.vinegar
                  > To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:11 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [MN] Sauerkraut in Harsch fermenter
                  >
                  > Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International
                  > awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by
                  > many professionals that SS is OK for vinegar fermentation. So far, I have
                  > not had any problems associated with the Stailess Steel degrading. In fact,
                  > the SS that I have has been manufactured by a very reputable company that
                  > makes many SS vessels for the fermentation industry. I have been very
                  > careful to try and notice if degradtion is taking place andf have found no
                  > evidence at this time.
                  > cheers
                  > Roger
                  >
                  > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Roger & All,
                  > >
                  > > I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for
                  > fermenting
                  > > things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll
                  > post
                  > > it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
                  > > fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
                  > > reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an
                  > acid
                  > > to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches of
                  > > kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems to
                  > > be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level to
                  > > be relatively insignificant.
                  > >
                  > > Jason
                  > >
                  > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > **
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container that
                  > can
                  > > > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring
                  > loaded
                  > > > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow the
                  > > > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring would
                  > > > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside
                  > pressure?
                  > > >
                  > > > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope
                  > the
                  > > > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody
                  > may
                  > > > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
                  > > >
                  > > > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it
                  > when
                  > > > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which was
                  > > > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the
                  > bag
                  > > > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic is
                  > not
                  > > > the way to go.
                  > > > Roger
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Roger & All,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the
                  > Harsch
                  > > > > crock.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar
                  > with
                  > > > a
                  > > > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
                  > > > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
                  > > > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
                  > > > cleaned
                  > > > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape from
                  > the
                  > > > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
                  > > > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the
                  > initial
                  > > > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be sucked
                  > > > down
                  > > > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This sounds
                  > > > like
                  > > > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second
                  > style is
                  > > > a
                  > > > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can be
                  > > > very
                  > > > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a
                  > very
                  > > > nice
                  > > > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the
                  > vessel.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of
                  > them are
                  > > > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
                  > > > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough
                  > vacuum
                  > > > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which could
                  > > > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you
                  > could
                  > > > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or
                  > at
                  > > > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic
                  > like
                  > > > that.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Jason
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > **
                  > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my
                  > Harsch
                  > > > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the
                  > problem
                  > > > rests
                  > > > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase.
                  > When the
                  > > > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts
                  > to
                  > > > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they
                  > instructed
                  > > > me to
                  > > > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the vessel
                  > > > but do
                  > > > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the
                  > batch
                  > > > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3
                  > times
                  > > > by
                  > > > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue but
                  > not
                  > > > as
                  > > > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was
                  > allowing
                  > > > air
                  > > > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see that
                  > > > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit more
                  > > > slowly.
                  > > > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100%
                  > anaerobic
                  > > > > > (when making sauerkraut).
                  > > > > > Roger
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  Regards,
                  David Harkness


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Heather Twist
                  The thing that makes me wonder about stainless is that it acts as a catalyst. Actually anything with iron in it acts as a catalyst, promoting oxidation. I m
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 3, 1936
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                    The thing that makes me wonder about stainless is that it acts as a
                    catalyst.
                    Actually anything with iron in it acts as a catalyst, promoting oxidation.
                    I'm
                    not sure how much stainless does this, but it does seem to be true that
                    foods cooked in ceramic, on a wood plank, under a layer of oil, or wrapped
                    in leaves all taste better than something cooked in a stainless pan. The
                    point
                    of cooking is to avoid oxidation, so avoiding oxygen and metal in general is
                    a good thing in my book.

                    On the other hand, ceramic is a catalyst for a different set of reactions,
                    which is one reason ceramic beads are used in the EM ferments. Taking
                    clay makes a huge difference to the bacterial ferment in one's gut. Using
                    clay in a pond changes the water.

                    Wood has it's own properties too, mostly not studied. Wooden cutting
                    boards apparently don't sustain bacterial colonies, while plastic ones do.

                    These reactions are probably catalytic, meaning it has to do with the shape
                    of the molecule on the surface. The molecule itself is unchanged. This
                    property
                    is being used in lots of stuff these days, including cloth that have a sort
                    of built-in deodorant feature.

                    So potentially, there could be a rather big difference in ferments done
                    in ceramic, vs. ferments done in stainless. I like the idea of ceramic
                    better, or glass. Stainless is used commercially though, for breweries and
                    wine making, so they must presume it is safe enough, and results in a
                    good-tasting product.



                    On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:48 PM, David Harkness <davidharkness@...>wrote:

                    > That's true that many alloys are called "stainless steel," and I've seen
                    > some questionable metals labeled as stainless steel. If you buy a pot or
                    > other container at a store, you probably won't know what the alloy is. If
                    > you do find information about the alloy, look for the numbers 304, 316, or
                    > 316L. Those are considered good grades of SS for corrosion resistance.
                    > There is an alloy that has even better corrosion resistance called
                    > Hastelloy C, but you probably couldn't afford a pot made out of it.
                    >
                    > The bad thing about SS is that it's not a very good heat conductor. You
                    > will tend to get hot spots unless it has copper or aluminum sandwiched
                    > between layers of SS. The same properties that make it corrosion resistant
                    > make it a poor conductor.
                    > Something to consider is that metals can leach out when exposed to an
                    > aggressive environment for a long time. All SS contains chromium and
                    > nickle which are probably toxic at some level (I'm no expert on that
                    > subject.) Personally, I would feel better about using glass, glazed
                    > ceramics, or high quality food grade plastic for long term exposure to
                    > food.
                    > On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Ellis Hein <woodturnedart@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > There are different alloys that are classified as Stainless Steel. One of
                    > > which may be better than another for fermentation.
                    > >
                    > > Ellis
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: mr.vinegar
                    > > To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 1:11 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [MN] Sauerkraut in Harsch fermenter
                    > >
                    > > Hi Jason. I ferment vinegar for a hobby and have won 16 International
                    > > awards. I have researched the SS aspect of this and have been assured by
                    > > many professionals that SS is OK for vinegar fermentation. So far, I have
                    > > not had any problems associated with the Stailess Steel degrading. In
                    > fact,
                    > > the SS that I have has been manufactured by a very reputable company that
                    > > makes many SS vessels for the fermentation industry. I have been very
                    > > careful to try and notice if degradtion is taking place andf have found
                    > no
                    > > evidence at this time.
                    > > cheers
                    > > Roger
                    > >
                    > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Roger & All,
                    > > >
                    > > > I read somewhere recently that stainless steel is not ideal for
                    > > fermenting
                    > > > things like sauerkraut. Sorry, I don't recall where I read this, I'll
                    > > post
                    > > > it if I come across it again. The reason had something to do with
                    > > > fermenting in metals, including SS. Even though SS is very low in
                    > > > reactivity, I think the long contact time (4-5 weeks in my case) of an
                    > > acid
                    > > > to the SS slowly starts to degrade the SS. I did my first few batches
                    > of
                    > > > kraut in an open SS crockpot, which turned out fine. My crockpot seems
                    > to
                    > > > be okay, and if this theory is true, it might be at such a small level
                    > to
                    > > > be relatively insignificant.
                    > > >
                    > > > Jason
                    > > >
                    > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 4:26 PM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > **
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks Jason. I have been thinking of a stainless steel container
                    > that
                    > > can
                    > > > > be sealed like a pressure cooker and has small hole with a spring
                    > > loaded
                    > > > > rubber seal on top. The spring on the small hole "seal" would allow
                    > the
                    > > > > pressure inside to escape. When the pressure subsides, the spring
                    > would
                    > > > > allow the small rubber seal spring back and seal it from outside
                    > > pressure?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have my stainless steel presure cooker on the go right now and hope
                    > > the
                    > > > > seals will allow these actions, (doubtful). Anyhow, perhaps somebody
                    > > may
                    > > > > take this idea and make a vessel solely for sauerkraut.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I did use a heavy duty plastic bag and squeezed all the air out of it
                    > > when
                    > > > > I introduced the sauerkraut. I then sealed the top of the bag which
                    > was
                    > > > > then a vacuum. I watched the pressure inflate the top portion of the
                    > > bag
                    > > > > and everything went very well indeed. But I agree with you, plastic
                    > is
                    > > not
                    > > > > the way to go.
                    > > > > Roger
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Jason Rumohr <jrumohr@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Roger & All,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience and observations regarding the
                    > > Harsch
                    > > > > > crock.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have found something similar that happens when using a gallon jar
                    > > with
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > beer/wine fermenting airlock on top of the lid to allow for the gas
                    > > > > > exchange. There are two common types of these airlocks. One is the
                    > > > > > cylindrical "3-piece" airlock, which can be easily disassembled and
                    > > > > cleaned
                    > > > > > out. This style of airlock is good at allowing gasses to escape
                    > from
                    > > the
                    > > > > > vessel, but not so good at allowing air back in to equalize the air
                    > > > > > pressure when the mass of sauerkraut sinks back down after the
                    > > initial
                    > > > > > rise. It could potentially even allow the airlock liquid to be
                    > sucked
                    > > > > down
                    > > > > > into the vessel, offering a possibility of contamination. This
                    > sounds
                    > > > > like
                    > > > > > the same situation you encountered with your Harsch. The second
                    > > style is
                    > > > > a
                    > > > > > "2-piece" S-shaped airlock. This one cannot be taken apart and can
                    > be
                    > > > > very
                    > > > > > difficult to clean with normal soap and water. However, it does a
                    > > very
                    > > > > nice
                    > > > > > job of letting air pressure go both ways--either in or out of the
                    > > vessel.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In all these cases (different airlocks or Harsch crock), none of
                    > > them are
                    > > > > > 100% anaerobic. Some air will need to get back in to neutralize the
                    > > > > > pressure in a rigid container. I suppose if you used a very tough
                    > > vacuum
                    > > > > > sealed bag or even a very tough plastic jar and lid, one which
                    > could
                    > > > > > withstand the pressure/vacuum created by the fermentation, then you
                    > > could
                    > > > > > achieve 100% anaerobic. I don't know if that would be desirable, or
                    > > at
                    > > > > > least for me, I'd rather not be doing heavy fermenting in plastic
                    > > like
                    > > > > that.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Jason
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 9:05 AM, mr.vinegar <mr.vinegar@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > > **
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > A while back, I posted a problem about a vacuum developing in my
                    > > Harsch
                    > > > > > > fermenter. After much experimentation with more batches, the
                    > > problem
                    > > > > rests
                    > > > > > > with the sauerkraut "heaving" during the rapid gasseous phase.
                    > > When the
                    > > > > > > gass starts to subside, the saurkraut within the fermenter starts
                    > > to
                    > > > > > > settle. This is what is causing the vacuum.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I contacted the Harsch people about this problem and they
                    > > instructed
                    > > > > me to
                    > > > > > > more or less rotate the lid so as to allow air back into the
                    > vessel
                    > > > > but do
                    > > > > > > not add more water as it may be drawn into the vessel. During the
                    > > batch
                    > > > > > > that I have going now, I have had to allow air into the vessel 3
                    > > times
                    > > > > by
                    > > > > > > rotating the lid and then once again the gass bubbles continue
                    > but
                    > > not
                    > > > > as
                    > > > > > > much as the first phase. I had to do this because the lid was
                    > > allowing
                    > > > > air
                    > > > > > > into the vessel regardless, due to the vacuum.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > At least when I allowed the air to equalize, I could still see
                    > that
                    > > > > > > fermentation was still taking place RE: the gas bubbles albeit
                    > more
                    > > > > slowly.
                    > > > > > > What this says to me is that the Harsch fermenter is not 100%
                    > > anaerobic
                    > > > > > > (when making sauerkraut).
                    > > > > > > Roger
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Regards,
                    > David Harkness
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Heather Twist
                    http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/


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