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Re: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination

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  • John Bell
    No offense taken, Bruce. You of all people should know that I m NO perfectionist. ;-) Before committing to this wood, however, I d suggest the poster do the
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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      No offense taken, Bruce. You of all people should know that I'm NO
      perfectionist. ;-)

      Before committing to this wood, however, I'd suggest the poster do the
      following. Take a piece and soak it for a couple of days. This is not as
      rigorous as the boil test and a truly crappy piece of ply will fail just as
      quickly in these circumstances. Ply that delaminates upon getting wet for a
      day or two has no place in a boat.

      I saw a boat the other day made out of some junky lauan, glassed on the
      outside that showed signs of widespread delamination. The boat had only been
      used a few times and otherwise stored under a tarp, upside down on sawhorses
      out of doors. It's a real shame to see so much effort for naught.

      If he's going to fiberglass anyway, he'd be better off with BC pine (which
      WILL pass the boil test) than interior glue lauan that won't.

      I personally won't use any wood that won't pass a boil test, so at least I
      practice what I preach.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@...>
      To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM
      Subject: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination


      | John's being a tad "perfectionist" in my humble opinion. Take no
      | offense JB, I'm not a good writer of humour. But I try.
      |
      | My first two, A Bolger Diablo and Nymph were made from Mahogany
      | underlay. Crappy 1/4 inch stuff that looked good, but had outer plys
      | as thick as frog's hair and a "mystery" wood centre ply that
      | resembled cat-tail pith.
      |
      | The boat built my confidence, while sucking up a few hundred bucks
      | worth of West Sys. But it floated. I learned that a 1" inch carpentry
      | gap was within "epoxy range" and had a ball with both.
      |
      | John Bell has taken his two lovely kids for a row or two in the
      | Nymph, and all returned to tell the tale.
      |
      | If you build it, it will float.
      |
      | Which may quite possibly lead to a life long obcession.
      |
      | Use better stuff in future, as you develop confidence in your skills.
      |
      | Bruce Hector
      | Who never met a sheet of ply he couldn't make float!
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |
      | Yahoo! Groups Links
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |
    • Wayne Farris
      I too saw very nice canoe made out of moisture-resistant but very nice looking virola from Home Depot. It delaminated after only one season of use and was
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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        I too saw very nice canoe made out of "moisture-resistant" but very
        nice looking virola from Home Depot. It delaminated after only one
        season of use and was stored on sawhorses under a tarp. It is
        depressing to see so much effort to make a nice boat have to be cut up
        and tossed in the garbage so quickly. You need a true exterior glue
        based plywood.
      • James W. Sloan
        I built a pirouge from the HD Virola. It was glassed at the seams and the entire bottom. The whole thing had 2 coats of FGCI 2:1 epoxy. Painted with Behr porch
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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          I built a pirouge from the HD Virola. It was glassed at the seams and the
          entire bottom. The whole thing had 2 coats of FGCI 2:1 epoxy. Painted with
          Behr porch paint. 21/2 years and lots of use later, its still going strong!
          Of course, your mileage may vary.....

          James Sloan
          Saint Simons Island, GA

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Wayne Farris" <wf_email@...>
          To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 9:02 PM
          Subject: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination


          >I too saw very nice canoe made out of "moisture-resistant" but very
          > nice looking virola from Home Depot. It delaminated after only one
          > season of use and was stored on sawhorses under a tarp. It is
          > depressing to see so much effort to make a nice boat have to be cut up
          > and tossed in the garbage so quickly. You need a true exterior glue
          > based plywood.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • vexatious2001
          ... store. Well, I boiled it, and after an hour, it had delaminated. So ... Just becuse plywood passes the boil test does not mean it will hold together any
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "cehill62" <chill@c...> wrote:
            > I picked up some 1/4" Lauan plywood from the local giant home
            store. Well, I boiled it, and after an hour, it had delaminated.
            So
            > what do I do now?




            Just becuse plywood passes the boil test does not
            mean it will hold together any better than the stuff
            that does not pass the boil test.

            Jim M wrote, in his boil test newsletter, about some
            luuan that passeed the boil test; he built a camper
            shell for his old puck-up truck out of those same sheets
            and it delaminated something fierce.

            I would suggest hitting the phone to flooring places around
            your town and seeing what you can come-up with in
            regards to premium underlayment, such as:

            http://www.morelandcompany.com/ultraply.htm

            http://www.patriottimber.com/sureply.htm

            http://www.capitolusa.com/cap_accuply01.asp

            http://www.tecply.com/


            This stuff, which is basically a higher-quality
            version of the home center underlayment, will
            cost you about 20 to 25 bucks per sheet and will
            be a bit harder to find.

            I have built (2) boats from the Ultraply, one of
            which I am bringing to the Midwest Messabout.
            No problems so far.

            Of course, the best option would be BS 1088 marine
            plywood.



            Max
          • Chuck Leinweber
            I have built several boats with Luan and never had any problems, but I think I was just lucky. I would not use wood that I knew had interior glue. I like
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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              I have built several boats with Luan and never had any problems, but I think
              I was just lucky. I would not use wood that I knew had interior glue. I
              like John�s idea of a further test by soaking in water for a few days. If
              it fails this test, use it for underlayment, not a boat.



              Chuck



              _____

              From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of John Bell
              Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 6:13 PM
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination



              No offense taken, Bruce. You of all people should know that I'm NO
              perfectionist. ;-)

              Before committing to this wood, however, I'd suggest the poster do the
              following. Take a piece and soak it for a couple of days. This is not as
              rigorous as the boil test and a truly crappy piece of ply will fail just as
              quickly in these circumstances. Ply that delaminates upon getting wet for a
              day or two has no place in a boat.

              I saw a boat the other day made out of some junky lauan, glassed on the
              outside that showed signs of widespread delamination. The boat had only been
              used a few times and otherwise stored under a tarp, upside down on sawhorses
              out of doors. It's a real shame to see so much effort for naught.

              If he's going to fiberglass anyway, he'd be better off with BC pine (which
              WILL pass the boil test) than interior glue lauan that won't.

              I personally won't use any wood that won't pass a boil test, so at least I
              practice what I preach.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@...>
              To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination


              | John's being a tad "perfectionist" in my humble opinion. Take no
              | offense JB, I'm not a good writer of humour. But I try.
              |
              | My first two, A Bolger Diablo and Nymph were made from Mahogany
              | underlay. Crappy 1/4 inch stuff that looked good, but had outer plys
              | as thick as frog's hair and a "mystery" wood centre ply that
              | resembled cat-tail pith.
              |
              | The boat built my confidence, while sucking up a few hundred bucks
              | worth of West Sys. But it floated. I learned that a 1" inch carpentry
              | gap was within "epoxy range" and had a ball with both.
              |
              | John Bell has taken his two lovely kids for a row or two in the
              | Nymph, and all returned to tell the tale.
              |
              | If you build it, it will float.
              |
              | Which may quite possibly lead to a life long obcession.
              |
              | Use better stuff in future, as you develop confidence in your skills.
              |
              | Bruce Hector
              | Who never met a sheet of ply he couldn't make float!
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |
              | Yahoo! Groups Links
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |
              |




              _____

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            • Stefan Probst
              ... OK, my take on it: If you can get better ply and can afford the extra cost: Get that other ply and use what you have for interior work - with some good
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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                --- "cehill62" <chill@c...> wrote:
                > Should I keep looking, or can I proceed with this stuff?

                OK, my take on it:

                If you can get better ply and can afford the extra cost: Get that
                other ply and use what you have for interior work - with some good
                coats of Epoxy and paint.

                If you have to live with what you have: Prepare mentally for a
                lottery. Your boat - if properly done - may last for ages, or may fall
                apart after one season. As you saw, you hear all kind of stories.
                Besides the storage location (in water, under a roof, or inside a
                building), there are other factors like humidity, temperature range
                and differences, direct sunlight, micro fauna, etc. that influence the
                outcome.

                "Done properly" has been described already: coatss of Epoxy and paint,
                glass at the bottom, edges in epoxy or protected by logs (chines,
                gunwales) (I am working on that since I have to use interior grade
                ply). "Stitch and Glue" works probably better than framed, since with
                S&G the fragile edges (where water can get soaked into the sheet) get
                well covered with Epoxy.

                One tip (the lessen learnt from my first project): Be careful when
                layering Epoxy and the first layer of paint. I read that it should be
                sanded, but thought that it needs only to get the bumps out. In
                reality it is to get rid of that "amine blush". I sanded only a bit
                and the result was that the paint "delaminates" from the epoxy below.
                See http://www.glen-l.com/resources/glossary.html#a for some good
                description and ways to remove that blush. Alternatively you should
                add the additional layers as soon as the Expoxy is "touch dry", but
                before it is completely cured, i.e. in the "green phase".

                Good Luck!

                Stefan
              • Chris Hill
                I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the helpful responses about Lauan and delamination. By the time I turned on my computer today there were already
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 6, 2005
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                  I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the helpful responses
                  about Lauan and delamination. By the time I turned on my computer
                  today there were already eight responses waiting! I like John Bell's
                  suggestion of a more realistic test. I'll try soaking some scraps of
                  this Lauan in water for a few days. (I like the converse idea of boil
                  testing a whole boat, too, but I like that one in a different way, if
                  you know what I mean.) This stuff was labeled as exterior plywood, I
                  thought, at the store (I'll double check next time I'm there). After
                  the Bell test, I think, even though I could afford better wood, that I
                  may go ahead and roll the dice with what I've got. My biggest battle
                  in most projects is with my own perfectionism, so I try to steer away
                  from that when possible, to embrace a bit of imperfection and
                  sloppiness. I think I'm more likely to finish this millenium with that
                  outlook. And thanks to your responses I feel more comfortable with
                  both possible outcomes of sticking with cheap wood.

                  And whoever it was who wrote that one inch carpentry gaps were within
                  epoxy range, you're my hero! You must have seen me trying to saw a
                  straight line.

                  On another note, I am so green with envy of those of you who can make
                  it to the Sucia gathering, since it's now 5 years since my wife and I
                  moved east and had to give our annual kayaking trip to the San Juans.
                  That trip was always the best week of the year, and Sucia is so
                  beautiful.

                  More later (I hope),

                  Chris

                  Chris Hill
                  Conway, SC (formerly Everett, WA)

                  On Monday, June 6, 2005, at 01:45 AM, Stefan Probst wrote:

                  > --- "cehill62" <chill@c...> wrote:
                  >> Should I keep looking, or can I proceed with this stuff?
                  >
                  > OK, my take on it:
                  >
                  > If you can get better ply and can afford the extra cost: Get that
                  > other ply and use what you have for interior work - with some good
                  > coats of Epoxy and paint.
                  >
                  > If you have to live with what you have: Prepare mentally for a
                  > lottery. Your boat - if properly done - may last for ages, or may fall
                  > apart after one season. As you saw, you hear all kind of stories.
                  > Besides the storage location (in water, under a roof, or inside a
                  > building), there are other factors like humidity, temperature range
                  > and differences, direct sunlight, micro fauna, etc. that influence the
                  > outcome.
                  >
                  > "Done properly" has been described already: coatss of Epoxy and paint,
                  > glass at the bottom, edges in epoxy or protected by logs (chines,
                  > gunwales) (I am working on that since I have to use interior grade
                  > ply). "Stitch and Glue" works probably better than framed, since with
                  > S&G the fragile edges (where water can get soaked into the sheet) get
                  > well covered with Epoxy.
                  >
                  > One tip (the lessen learnt from my first project): Be careful when
                  > layering Epoxy and the first layer of paint. I read that it should be
                  > sanded, but thought that it needs only to get the bumps out. In
                  > reality it is to get rid of that "amine blush". I sanded only a bit
                  > and the result was that the paint "delaminates" from the epoxy below.
                  > See http://www.glen-l.com/resources/glossary.html#a for some good
                  > description and ways to remove that blush. Alternatively you should
                  > add the additional layers as soon as the Expoxy is "touch dry", but
                  > before it is completely cured, i.e. in the "green phase".
                  >
                  > Good Luck!
                  >
                  > Stefan
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ************************************************************************
                  Christopher E. Hill
                  Biology Department
                  Coastal Carolina University
                  Conway, SC 29528-1954
                  chill AT coastal.edu
                  http://kingfish.coastal.edu/biology/faculty/chill.htm

                  One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the
                  belief that one's work is terribly important.
                  Bertrand Russell
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