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Re: boil test - delamination

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  • waltbald
    Steve s strategy is a sound one, but before you go throwing epoxy at everything, ask yourself, How long do I want this boat to last? The resale value of a
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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      Steve's strategy is a sound one, but before you go throwing epoxy at
      everything, ask yourself, "How long do I want this boat to last?" The
      resale value of a homemade plywood boat by a first time boatbuilder is
      zero, so you will be stuck with this boat until it rots. If you want
      that to be twenty years from now, then don't skimp on the epoxy, or
      the paint, and take care to keep your boat clean and dry when it's not
      in use.

      On the other hand, if, like many of us, you have a list of four boats
      that you want to build next, and a dozen more that you want to build
      eventually, maybe you can cut some corners on your first boat. So long
      as you don't let rainwater collect in it, it will still last a few
      years, and by then you'll be glad to be rid of it.

      have fun,

      Walter Owens


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Lewis" <numbaoneman@a...> wrote:
      > lots of stuff I have used would have delaminated had I boiled it. The
      > solution: Throw epoxy at it. Make sure you seal each and every
      > exposed edge with a couple of coats of epoxy, then give it a couple
      > of coats (each) of primer and paint, sanding a bit in between.
      > Anything under 'glass cloth will be fine, so cloth to a point above
      > the waterline. Be diligent(sp?) at touching up any gouges and scrapes
      > and you should be fine. Don't expect to will the boat to your
      > grandkids tho, but it could happen.
      >
      > Steve
      >
    • John Bell
      No offense taken, Bruce. You of all people should know that I m NO perfectionist. ;-) Before committing to this wood, however, I d suggest the poster do the
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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        No offense taken, Bruce. You of all people should know that I'm NO
        perfectionist. ;-)

        Before committing to this wood, however, I'd suggest the poster do the
        following. Take a piece and soak it for a couple of days. This is not as
        rigorous as the boil test and a truly crappy piece of ply will fail just as
        quickly in these circumstances. Ply that delaminates upon getting wet for a
        day or two has no place in a boat.

        I saw a boat the other day made out of some junky lauan, glassed on the
        outside that showed signs of widespread delamination. The boat had only been
        used a few times and otherwise stored under a tarp, upside down on sawhorses
        out of doors. It's a real shame to see so much effort for naught.

        If he's going to fiberglass anyway, he'd be better off with BC pine (which
        WILL pass the boil test) than interior glue lauan that won't.

        I personally won't use any wood that won't pass a boil test, so at least I
        practice what I preach.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@...>
        To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM
        Subject: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination


        | John's being a tad "perfectionist" in my humble opinion. Take no
        | offense JB, I'm not a good writer of humour. But I try.
        |
        | My first two, A Bolger Diablo and Nymph were made from Mahogany
        | underlay. Crappy 1/4 inch stuff that looked good, but had outer plys
        | as thick as frog's hair and a "mystery" wood centre ply that
        | resembled cat-tail pith.
        |
        | The boat built my confidence, while sucking up a few hundred bucks
        | worth of West Sys. But it floated. I learned that a 1" inch carpentry
        | gap was within "epoxy range" and had a ball with both.
        |
        | John Bell has taken his two lovely kids for a row or two in the
        | Nymph, and all returned to tell the tale.
        |
        | If you build it, it will float.
        |
        | Which may quite possibly lead to a life long obcession.
        |
        | Use better stuff in future, as you develop confidence in your skills.
        |
        | Bruce Hector
        | Who never met a sheet of ply he couldn't make float!
        |
        |
        |
        |
        |
        |
        | Yahoo! Groups Links
        |
        |
        |
        |
        |
        |
        |
      • Wayne Farris
        I too saw very nice canoe made out of moisture-resistant but very nice looking virola from Home Depot. It delaminated after only one season of use and was
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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          I too saw very nice canoe made out of "moisture-resistant" but very
          nice looking virola from Home Depot. It delaminated after only one
          season of use and was stored on sawhorses under a tarp. It is
          depressing to see so much effort to make a nice boat have to be cut up
          and tossed in the garbage so quickly. You need a true exterior glue
          based plywood.
        • James W. Sloan
          I built a pirouge from the HD Virola. It was glassed at the seams and the entire bottom. The whole thing had 2 coats of FGCI 2:1 epoxy. Painted with Behr porch
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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            I built a pirouge from the HD Virola. It was glassed at the seams and the
            entire bottom. The whole thing had 2 coats of FGCI 2:1 epoxy. Painted with
            Behr porch paint. 21/2 years and lots of use later, its still going strong!
            Of course, your mileage may vary.....

            James Sloan
            Saint Simons Island, GA

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Wayne Farris" <wf_email@...>
            To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 9:02 PM
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination


            >I too saw very nice canoe made out of "moisture-resistant" but very
            > nice looking virola from Home Depot. It delaminated after only one
            > season of use and was stored on sawhorses under a tarp. It is
            > depressing to see so much effort to make a nice boat have to be cut up
            > and tossed in the garbage so quickly. You need a true exterior glue
            > based plywood.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • vexatious2001
            ... store. Well, I boiled it, and after an hour, it had delaminated. So ... Just becuse plywood passes the boil test does not mean it will hold together any
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "cehill62" <chill@c...> wrote:
              > I picked up some 1/4" Lauan plywood from the local giant home
              store. Well, I boiled it, and after an hour, it had delaminated.
              So
              > what do I do now?




              Just becuse plywood passes the boil test does not
              mean it will hold together any better than the stuff
              that does not pass the boil test.

              Jim M wrote, in his boil test newsletter, about some
              luuan that passeed the boil test; he built a camper
              shell for his old puck-up truck out of those same sheets
              and it delaminated something fierce.

              I would suggest hitting the phone to flooring places around
              your town and seeing what you can come-up with in
              regards to premium underlayment, such as:

              http://www.morelandcompany.com/ultraply.htm

              http://www.patriottimber.com/sureply.htm

              http://www.capitolusa.com/cap_accuply01.asp

              http://www.tecply.com/


              This stuff, which is basically a higher-quality
              version of the home center underlayment, will
              cost you about 20 to 25 bucks per sheet and will
              be a bit harder to find.

              I have built (2) boats from the Ultraply, one of
              which I am bringing to the Midwest Messabout.
              No problems so far.

              Of course, the best option would be BS 1088 marine
              plywood.



              Max
            • Chuck Leinweber
              I have built several boats with Luan and never had any problems, but I think I was just lucky. I would not use wood that I knew had interior glue. I like
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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                I have built several boats with Luan and never had any problems, but I think
                I was just lucky. I would not use wood that I knew had interior glue. I
                like John�s idea of a further test by soaking in water for a few days. If
                it fails this test, use it for underlayment, not a boat.



                Chuck



                _____

                From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of John Bell
                Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 6:13 PM
                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination



                No offense taken, Bruce. You of all people should know that I'm NO
                perfectionist. ;-)

                Before committing to this wood, however, I'd suggest the poster do the
                following. Take a piece and soak it for a couple of days. This is not as
                rigorous as the boil test and a truly crappy piece of ply will fail just as
                quickly in these circumstances. Ply that delaminates upon getting wet for a
                day or two has no place in a boat.

                I saw a boat the other day made out of some junky lauan, glassed on the
                outside that showed signs of widespread delamination. The boat had only been
                used a few times and otherwise stored under a tarp, upside down on sawhorses
                out of doors. It's a real shame to see so much effort for naught.

                If he's going to fiberglass anyway, he'd be better off with BC pine (which
                WILL pass the boil test) than interior glue lauan that won't.

                I personally won't use any wood that won't pass a boil test, so at least I
                practice what I preach.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@...>
                To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:57 PM
                Subject: [Michalak] Re: boil test - delamination


                | John's being a tad "perfectionist" in my humble opinion. Take no
                | offense JB, I'm not a good writer of humour. But I try.
                |
                | My first two, A Bolger Diablo and Nymph were made from Mahogany
                | underlay. Crappy 1/4 inch stuff that looked good, but had outer plys
                | as thick as frog's hair and a "mystery" wood centre ply that
                | resembled cat-tail pith.
                |
                | The boat built my confidence, while sucking up a few hundred bucks
                | worth of West Sys. But it floated. I learned that a 1" inch carpentry
                | gap was within "epoxy range" and had a ball with both.
                |
                | John Bell has taken his two lovely kids for a row or two in the
                | Nymph, and all returned to tell the tale.
                |
                | If you build it, it will float.
                |
                | Which may quite possibly lead to a life long obcession.
                |
                | Use better stuff in future, as you develop confidence in your skills.
                |
                | Bruce Hector
                | Who never met a sheet of ply he couldn't make float!
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |
                | Yahoo! Groups Links
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |
                |




                _____

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              • Stefan Probst
                ... OK, my take on it: If you can get better ply and can afford the extra cost: Get that other ply and use what you have for interior work - with some good
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 5, 2005
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                  --- "cehill62" <chill@c...> wrote:
                  > Should I keep looking, or can I proceed with this stuff?

                  OK, my take on it:

                  If you can get better ply and can afford the extra cost: Get that
                  other ply and use what you have for interior work - with some good
                  coats of Epoxy and paint.

                  If you have to live with what you have: Prepare mentally for a
                  lottery. Your boat - if properly done - may last for ages, or may fall
                  apart after one season. As you saw, you hear all kind of stories.
                  Besides the storage location (in water, under a roof, or inside a
                  building), there are other factors like humidity, temperature range
                  and differences, direct sunlight, micro fauna, etc. that influence the
                  outcome.

                  "Done properly" has been described already: coatss of Epoxy and paint,
                  glass at the bottom, edges in epoxy or protected by logs (chines,
                  gunwales) (I am working on that since I have to use interior grade
                  ply). "Stitch and Glue" works probably better than framed, since with
                  S&G the fragile edges (where water can get soaked into the sheet) get
                  well covered with Epoxy.

                  One tip (the lessen learnt from my first project): Be careful when
                  layering Epoxy and the first layer of paint. I read that it should be
                  sanded, but thought that it needs only to get the bumps out. In
                  reality it is to get rid of that "amine blush". I sanded only a bit
                  and the result was that the paint "delaminates" from the epoxy below.
                  See http://www.glen-l.com/resources/glossary.html#a for some good
                  description and ways to remove that blush. Alternatively you should
                  add the additional layers as soon as the Expoxy is "touch dry", but
                  before it is completely cured, i.e. in the "green phase".

                  Good Luck!

                  Stefan
                • Chris Hill
                  I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the helpful responses about Lauan and delamination. By the time I turned on my computer today there were already
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 6, 2005
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                    I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the helpful responses
                    about Lauan and delamination. By the time I turned on my computer
                    today there were already eight responses waiting! I like John Bell's
                    suggestion of a more realistic test. I'll try soaking some scraps of
                    this Lauan in water for a few days. (I like the converse idea of boil
                    testing a whole boat, too, but I like that one in a different way, if
                    you know what I mean.) This stuff was labeled as exterior plywood, I
                    thought, at the store (I'll double check next time I'm there). After
                    the Bell test, I think, even though I could afford better wood, that I
                    may go ahead and roll the dice with what I've got. My biggest battle
                    in most projects is with my own perfectionism, so I try to steer away
                    from that when possible, to embrace a bit of imperfection and
                    sloppiness. I think I'm more likely to finish this millenium with that
                    outlook. And thanks to your responses I feel more comfortable with
                    both possible outcomes of sticking with cheap wood.

                    And whoever it was who wrote that one inch carpentry gaps were within
                    epoxy range, you're my hero! You must have seen me trying to saw a
                    straight line.

                    On another note, I am so green with envy of those of you who can make
                    it to the Sucia gathering, since it's now 5 years since my wife and I
                    moved east and had to give our annual kayaking trip to the San Juans.
                    That trip was always the best week of the year, and Sucia is so
                    beautiful.

                    More later (I hope),

                    Chris

                    Chris Hill
                    Conway, SC (formerly Everett, WA)

                    On Monday, June 6, 2005, at 01:45 AM, Stefan Probst wrote:

                    > --- "cehill62" <chill@c...> wrote:
                    >> Should I keep looking, or can I proceed with this stuff?
                    >
                    > OK, my take on it:
                    >
                    > If you can get better ply and can afford the extra cost: Get that
                    > other ply and use what you have for interior work - with some good
                    > coats of Epoxy and paint.
                    >
                    > If you have to live with what you have: Prepare mentally for a
                    > lottery. Your boat - if properly done - may last for ages, or may fall
                    > apart after one season. As you saw, you hear all kind of stories.
                    > Besides the storage location (in water, under a roof, or inside a
                    > building), there are other factors like humidity, temperature range
                    > and differences, direct sunlight, micro fauna, etc. that influence the
                    > outcome.
                    >
                    > "Done properly" has been described already: coatss of Epoxy and paint,
                    > glass at the bottom, edges in epoxy or protected by logs (chines,
                    > gunwales) (I am working on that since I have to use interior grade
                    > ply). "Stitch and Glue" works probably better than framed, since with
                    > S&G the fragile edges (where water can get soaked into the sheet) get
                    > well covered with Epoxy.
                    >
                    > One tip (the lessen learnt from my first project): Be careful when
                    > layering Epoxy and the first layer of paint. I read that it should be
                    > sanded, but thought that it needs only to get the bumps out. In
                    > reality it is to get rid of that "amine blush". I sanded only a bit
                    > and the result was that the paint "delaminates" from the epoxy below.
                    > See http://www.glen-l.com/resources/glossary.html#a for some good
                    > description and ways to remove that blush. Alternatively you should
                    > add the additional layers as soon as the Expoxy is "touch dry", but
                    > before it is completely cured, i.e. in the "green phase".
                    >
                    > Good Luck!
                    >
                    > Stefan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ************************************************************************
                    Christopher E. Hill
                    Biology Department
                    Coastal Carolina University
                    Conway, SC 29528-1954
                    chill AT coastal.edu
                    http://kingfish.coastal.edu/biology/faculty/chill.htm

                    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the
                    belief that one's work is terribly important.
                    Bertrand Russell
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