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Re: [Michalak] Inboard information

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  • James Greene
    In the Philippines they drive the stainless steel drive shaft via a U-joint (no clutch involved) and the drive shaft spins in a brass sleeve that s epoxied in
    Message 1 of 16 , May 3, 2005
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      In the Philippines they drive the stainless steel drive shaft via a
      U-joint (no clutch involved) and the drive shaft spins in a brass
      sleeve that's epoxied in place through the hull. Yes, this means the
      prop is spinning whenever the engine is running -- not the ideal system
      but certainly the cheapest.

      Fisherfolks here have never heard of a stuffing box -- too complicated,
      costly and potentially problematic I guess. Anything that costs money
      here is avoided whenever possible because these folks are basically
      very poor.

      The brass sleeve works fine. I've never see any water coming up into
      the boat between the sleeve and the drive shaft, although I suppose
      it's possible -- but it's only possible when the boat is not moving
      forward anyways -- because when underway there's a suction created by
      the boat movement through the water that sucks the water out of the
      brass sleeve.

      My thought when considering this form of power for my own banka boat is
      to improve the Filipino system by using a centrifugal clutch like those
      used on go-karts and mini-bikes. Or for a bit more money, a torque
      converter would be even better I suppose. But either of these systems
      would require a thrust bearing to handle the forward loads of the shaft
      -- something that's dealt with by the engine bearings in the much
      cheaper and simpler Filipino system.

      If you decide upon the Briggs & Stratton engine, the GX series is
      better built for continuous use than the consumer series.

      James Greene





      On May 4, 2005, at 08:09, pibracing wrote:

      > I am looking for some information on using a Briggs Stratton 5hp motor
      > in a small boat.Can anybody point to a website or a book with
      > information on doing this.I was planning on using a clutch with a
      > ujoint direct to the shaft.What I dont understand is how the shaft and
      > stuffing box are made.
      >
      > Thanks
      > Mike C
    • James Greene
      Hi Bob, Yes I have lived in Cebu for nearly 5 years, but I ve been thinking of moving to Baguio where the climate is not so hot and humid. I m still not sure
      Message 2 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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        Hi Bob,

        Yes I have lived in Cebu for nearly 5 years, but I've been thinking of
        moving to Baguio where the climate is not so hot and humid. I'm still
        not sure if I will make this move, but it's been in my thoughts a lot
        lately.

        My wife's family is from south of Cebu and her father is a fisherman,
        so I bought him a banka a couple years ago. That's what got me
        thinking of this kind of boat and the simple propulsion systems they
        use. Filipino are ingenious at making functional items out of the bare
        minimum of parts, and their no-frills direct drive motorized banka
        boats simply get the job done.

        James Greene





        On May 4, 2005, at 12:24, boblq wrote:

        > On Tuesday 03 May 2005 08:27 pm, James Greene wrote:
        >> In the Philippines they connect the stainless steel drive shaft via a
        >> U-joint (no clutch involved) and the drive shaft spins in a brass
        >> sleeve that's epoxied in place through the hull. Yes, this means the
        >> prop is spinning whenever the engine is running -- not the ideal
        >> system
        >> but certainly the cheapest -- and effective enough for most situations
        >> once you get used to the boat jumping ahead the moment the engine
        >> sparks to life.
        >>
        >> They've never heard of a stuffing box here on the common banka style
        >> fishing boats -- too complicated, costly and potentially problematic I
        >> guess. Anything that costs money here is avoided whenever possible
        >> because the fisherfolks are basically very poor and cannot afford the
        >> frills of clutches, stuffing boxes, and other "needless accessories".
        >>
        >> The brass sleeve works fine. I've never see any water coming up into
        >> the boat between the sleeve and the drive shaft, although I suppose
        >> it's possible. But it's only possible when the boat is not moving
        >> forward anyways, because when underway there's a suction created by
        >> the
        >> boat movement through the water that sucks the water out of the brass
        >> sleeve.
        >>
        >> My thought when considering this form of power is to improve the
        >> Filipino system by using a centrifugal clutch like those used on
        >> go-karts and mini-bikes. Or for a bit more money, a torque converter
        >> would be even better I suppose. But either of these systems would
        >> require a thrust bearing to handle the forward loads of the shaft --
        >> something that's dealt with by the engine bearings in the much cheaper
        >> and simpler Filipino system. So I'm not sure I want to bother with
        >> the
        >> extra cost of such as improvement anyways.
        >>
        >> If you decide upon the Briggs & Stratton engine, the GX series is
        >> better built for continuous use than the consumer series. Its bearing
        >> are bigger and/or stronger as are some of its other parts.
        >>
        >> James Greene
        >
        > Hi James,
        >
        > Curiosity compells me to ask if you are living in the Philippines.
        >
        > My wife is Filipina and we visit her family in Pampanga as often
        > as possible. Our intentions are to retire there. In fact, I hope to
        > build boats there. I am buliding a vaguely banka like boat here
        > in California for practice. See
        >
        > http://www.prencesita.com/banka.html
        > http://www.prencesita.com/banka090104.html
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Bob La Quey
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • pibracing
        That is exactly what I was looking to do,Do you know of any books or drawings to show this system.It sounds like the the same thing as a toy r/c boat with the
        Message 3 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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          That is exactly what I was looking to do,Do you know of any books or
          drawings to show this system.It sounds like the the same thing as a toy
          r/c boat with the brass tube epoxied through the bottom and a coupler
          to the motor.What do they use for a prop shaft?




          Mike
        • James Greene
          I ve never seen a toy boat in detail so I wouldn t know how they are built, but ... In the Philippines the bankas they use a solid stainless steel rod that s
          Message 4 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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            I've never seen a toy boat in detail so I wouldn't know how they are
            built, but ...

            In the Philippines the bankas they use a solid stainless steel rod
            that's 5/8 inch in diameter, or sometimes 3/4 inch or larger if it's a
            much bigger boat than the one I bought for my father-in-law. This
            drive shaft is about 6-7 feet long, more or less. It has coarse
            threads on the prop end, and the prop is threaded as well, but there's
            usually also a nut installed in front of and behind the prop.

            The front end of the shaft has no threads, it just slips into the
            universal joint and a bolt in the U- joint keeps the shaft from
            spinning. Sometimes there's a little indentation drilled into the side
            of the smooth end of the shaft to give the bolt a place to anchor into
            because this makes it easier to prevent the shaft from spinning.

            They sell these stainless steel drive shafts at all the fishing supply
            places here in Cebu, but that's because so many people use them over
            here. I wouldn't know where to find one in the USA, but you might have
            some luck at a machine shop or a welding shop or an industrial steel
            supplier.

            I posted a few pictures online months ago of my father-in-law's banka,
            with some close-ups of these components. The boat didn't have the
            engine installed at the time, but that was better for the photos
            anyways because the engine would have been in the way of the photos.
            It's been so long now that I don't remember the web site where I posted
            these photos (I'm on a lot of boating groups) so I will try to find the
            URL and post it here when I find it.

            Or I can simply repost them here (if they are not here already), I just
            need someone to tell me URL for the Michalak photos site at Yahoo
            groups.

            James Greene





            On May 4, 2005, at 18:37, pibracing wrote:

            > That is exactly what I was looking to do,Do you know of any books or
            > drawings to show this system.It sounds like the the same thing as a toy
            > r/c boat with the brass tube epoxied through the bottom and a coupler
            > to the motor.What do they use for a prop shaft?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Mike
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • robrohdeszudy
            Hey Mike. I ve looked into this. It s harder than it looks. The shafting, stuffing box, shaft log and prop are not at all cheap. They are VERY expensive when
            Message 5 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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              Hey Mike. I've looked into this. It's harder than it looks. The
              shafting, stuffing box, shaft log and prop are not at all cheap. They
              are VERY expensive when compared to the old outboards that Max and Jim
              write about. You'll never find these parts used because nobody has used
              tiny launch engines in 100 years. They've used outboards. Almost as
              troublesome is the fact that when something goes wrong you can't just
              unclamp the unit and take it in.

              If you insist on pursuing this, check out Glen-L's website for inboard
              installation info. They also have a book called Inboard Motor
              Installations that your library might well have. Also, boatdesign.net
              has a propulsion forum with some ideas.

              Seriously, though, be prepared to spend lots of money if you want an
              inboard. You can get a lot of older outboards and parts for that money.
              And you can work on them during the winter in the heated indoors!

              --Rob


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pibracing" <mcerio02@t...> wrote:
              > I am looking for some information on using a Briggs Stratton 5hp
              motor
              > in a small boat.Can anybody point to a website or a book with
              > information on doing this.I was planning on using a clutch with a
              > ujoint direct to the shaft.What I dont understand is how the shaft
              and
              > stuffing box are made.
              >
              > Thanks
              > Mike C
            • robrohdeszudy
              Hey all. I just read the posts about the third world inboard installations. I kinda feel dumb now because I read about them a long time ago but totally
              Message 6 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                Hey all. I just read the posts about the "third world" inboard
                installations. I kinda feel dumb now because I read about them a long
                time ago but totally forgot!

                But now I remember.

                1. If the engine will run when tilted at an angle, you don't need a U-
                joint at all.

                2. You may very well want some gear reduction. Belts or chains would
                work fine, but the best would probably be the gearbox from a dead
                snowblower. 6:1 reduction and made for the right horsepower and RPMs.
                You might be able to use a common vertical shaft engine with one of
                these too.

                3. Stainless rod is not hard to find at metal suppliers.

                4. BEARINGS are where things might get tricky, and where I have
                questions.

                4a. What would you use for the cutlass bearing? This is the water
                lubricated bearing at the prop end that keeps the shaft from wobbling
                all over under load. (Prevents "shaft runout" in machinespeak.)

                4b. What would you use for the thrust bearing?

                4c. Where would the thrust bearing mount? Below waterline? Above?

                I expect if we answer my couple of questions, this guy might have his
                propulsion troubles solved!

                --Rob
              • robrohdeszudy
                HaHAH! I dug through my old stuff and found something that might be helpful. It s called Building a Liftable Propulsion System for Small Fishing Craft: THE
                Message 7 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                  HaHAH! I dug through my old stuff and found something that might be
                  helpful. It's called "Building a Liftable Propulsion System for Small
                  Fishing Craft: THE BOB DRIVE". "BOB" is the Bay of Bengal Programme,
                  and this is a way to have liftable propulsion without needing outboard
                  motors, which are hard to come by over there. This may answer the
                  bearing questions. It can be found at
                  http://www.onefish.org/servlet/BinaryDownloaderServlet?
                  filename=1050418908401_mag014.pdf&refID=144829

                  --Rob
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... Howard Chapelle s book _Boatbuilding_ has a good chapter on how drive shafts are fitted out, here is a scan of an illustration from that chapter:
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                    > ujoint direct to the shaft.What I dont understand is how the shaft and
                    > stuffing box are made.
                    > Mike C

                    Howard Chapelle's book _Boatbuilding_ has a good chapter
                    on how drive shafts are fitted out, here is a scan of an illustration
                    from that chapter:

                    http://hallman.org/fittings.gif

                    http://www.cpperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=2767

                    shows one for sale, $45USD.

                    The purpose of the stuffing box is to allow the shaft to
                    turn, while at the same time keeping the water out
                    of the hull. You also need a trust bearing, to transfer
                    the thrust power of the propeller to the hull of the boat.
                    Other pieces in the diagram are hopefully self explanatory.
                  • Stefan Probst
                    ... Thanks a Zillion !!!! :)) This kind of engine is available here and this paper is VERY useful. Thanks again! Stefan Hanoi, Vietnam
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                      --- "robrohdeszudy" <robrohdeszudy@n...> wrote:
                      > It's called "Building a Liftable Propulsion System for Small
                      > Fishing Craft: THE BOB DRIVE". It can be found at
                      > http://www.onefish.org/servlet/BinaryDownloaderServlet?
                      > filename=1050418908401_mag014.pdf&refID=144829

                      Thanks a Zillion !!!! :))

                      This kind of engine is available here and this paper is VERY useful.

                      Thanks again!
                      Stefan
                      Hanoi, Vietnam
                    • robrohdeszudy
                      No problem, man. Just be aware that you do need access to lathes, welders and people who can use them to make it happen. --Rob
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                        No problem, man. Just be aware that you do need access to lathes,
                        welders and people who can use them to make it happen.
                        --Rob

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Probst" <stefan.probst@o...>
                        wrote:
                        > --- "robrohdeszudy" <robrohdeszudy@n...> wrote:
                        > > It's called "Building a Liftable Propulsion System for Small
                        > > Fishing Craft: THE BOB DRIVE". It can be found at
                        > > http://www.onefish.org/servlet/BinaryDownloaderServlet?
                        > > filename=1050418908401_mag014.pdf&refID=144829
                        >
                        > Thanks a Zillion !!!! :))
                        >
                        > This kind of engine is available here and this paper is VERY useful.
                        >
                        > Thanks again!
                        > Stefan
                        > Hanoi, Vietnam
                      • pibracing
                        That s exactly what I was looking for.What book are those from? Mike ... shaft
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 4, 2005
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                          That's exactly what I was looking for.What book are those from?



                          Mike





                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "vexatious2001" <cadbury112@e...>
                          wrote:
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pibracing" <mcerio02@t...> wrote:
                          > > I am looking for some information on using a Briggs Stratton 5hp
                          > motor
                          > > in a small boat.Can anybody point to a website or a book with
                          > > information on doing this.I was planning on using a clutch with a
                          > > ujoint direct to the shaft.What I dont understand is how the
                          shaft
                          > and
                          > > stuffing box are made.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks
                          > > Mike C
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Did you check-out the "Dirty Scans" folder in the
                          > files section of the "photos-only-1" group?
                          >
                          >
                          > Max
                        • vexatious2001
                          ... From one of the Mariners Catalogs of the 1970 s; I forget which volume it was: I photo-copied those pages (the only pages on that subject) from a public
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 5, 2005
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                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pibracing" <mcerio02@t...> wrote:
                            > That's exactly what I was looking for.What book are those from?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Mike
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Did you check-out the "Dirty Scans" folder in the
                            > > files section of the "photos-only-1" group?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Max




                            From one of the "Mariners' Catalogs" of the 1970's;
                            I forget which volume it was: I photo-copied those
                            pages (the only pages on that subject) from a public
                            library copy over 20 years ago.


                            Max
                          • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                            You can get cutless bearings and various holders for them at you local marine supply store. Of course anything marine is expensive. :o( But steamships used
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 8, 2005
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                              You can get cutless bearings and various holders for them at you local
                              marine supply store. Of course anything "marine" is expensive. :o( But
                              steamships used _wooden_ stern bearings until fairly recently, and you can
                              find wood anywhere, right? The favorite for steamship stern bearings was
                              lignum vitae, a very hard, oily and heavy South American hardwood. I saw
                              some once, for sale by the pound -- a pound was very expensive and a pound
                              of lignum vitae isn't very big! But Pete Culler wrote that any hard hardwood
                              would work fine for small boats. He recommended trying to get a gnarly,
                              burly, chunk if you can. Drill a hole for the shaft, and then cut a few
                              shallow kerfs inside the hole running lengthwise, to let the lubricating
                              water in and to let any sand and debris flush out.

                              Thrust bearings are no problem. You can get ball thrust bearings mounted in
                              flanged mounts or pillow blocks for reasonable prices at your local bearing
                              supply house (there should be at least one in any medium size city), or
                              online. The price for a low-horsepower size bearing should be low enough to
                              discourage you from trying to cobble together an alternative. In a small
                              boat the best setup will probably be a thrust bearing pillow block lag
                              bolted to the top of a floor a little aft of the engine.

                              A friend of mine put an ancient Clinton lawnmower engine in a flat-bottom
                              skiff. He didn't use a stuffing box, he just drilled the shaft hole in the
                              shaft log fairly snug, drilled a hole from above into the hole and mounted
                              a Zerk fitting in it. A few shots of stiff grease every now and then kept
                              the water at bay. That should work in any shallow small boat.

                              On Wed, 04 May 2005 13:15:46 -0000, Rob wrote:
                              > ...
                              > 4. BEARINGS are where things might get tricky, and where I have
                              > questions.
                              >
                              > 4a. What would you use for the cutlass bearing? This is the water
                              > lubricated bearing at the prop end that keeps the shaft from wobbling
                              > all over under load. (Prevents "shaft runout" in machinespeak.)
                              >
                              > 4b. What would you use for the thrust bearing?
                              >
                              > 4c. Where would the thrust bearing mount? Below waterline? Above?
                              > ...

                              --
                              John <jkohnen@...>
                              http://www.boat-links.com/
                              The way to fight a woman is with your hat. Grab it and run.
                              <John Barrymore>
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