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Re: [Michalak] Flotation

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  • Chuck Leinweber
    ... in ... I whole heartedly concur, Bruce. This method seems to be the best kind of flotation. I also recommend simple sealed chambers as long as
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 30, 2004
      <snip>
      > If you can just find a place to put them, they should work quite well as
      > floatation. I think using these would be better than sealing of an area
      in
      > your boat that you can't inspect for rot.
      > Bruce

      I whole heartedly concur, Bruce. This method seems to be the best kind of
      flotation. I also recommend simple sealed chambers as long as they have a
      deck plate to dry them out with. Always open this deckplate to thoroughly
      dry the chamber after each use of the boat. A bag like this would only
      improve this system. I don't like pour in foam at all, and blocks of the
      stuff only if there is air space all around them. That's my story and I'm
      sticking with it.

      Chuck
    • b_owen_ca
      Two good points, Ross. Ya think a handful of nylon screen wadded up and put in an inspection port would do the trick re keeping animal life out? As for the
      Message 2 of 25 , May 1, 2004
        Two good points, Ross. Ya think a handful of nylon screen wadded up
        and put in an inspection port would do the trick re keeping animal
        life out?

        As for the airtight aspect - hmmm. If I had Michalak style hatch
        covers I'd expect them to burp if the air pressure got too high. But
        I don't have them. Can you get/make some kind of pressure relief
        valve?

        Bryant - befuddled as usual



        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
        > My biggest concern about built in tanks is that if I leave them
        open to
        > dry something will live in there. I suppose I could make up some
        kind of
        > screen with a spare lid. Also, I wonder what happens if they are
        truly
        > airtight and the temperature changes while they are closed, say if
        you
        > start out on a cold morning and then get sun on them in the
        afternoon.
      • Lincoln Ross
        My biggest concern about built in tanks is that if I leave them open to dry something will live in there. I suppose I could make up some kind of screen with a
        Message 3 of 25 , May 1, 2004
          My biggest concern about built in tanks is that if I leave them open to
          dry something will live in there. I suppose I could make up some kind of
          screen with a spare lid. Also, I wonder what happens if they are truly
          airtight and the temperature changes while they are closed, say if you
          start out on a cold morning and then get sun on them in the afternoon.
        • Chuck Leinweber
          ... I think this is a red herring. I seriously doubt that any of us could make an air tight compartment, and if we could, wood is a strong enough material
          Message 4 of 25 , May 1, 2004
            > Can you get/make some kind of pressure relief
            > valve?
            >
            > Bryant - befuddled as usual

            I think this is a red herring. I seriously doubt that any of us could make
            an air tight compartment, and if we could, wood is a strong enough material
            that it would not likely break from such a differential. Besides, if the
            chamber were air tight, it would be neutral pressure at the temperature that
            you closed the lid. If you were worried, just close the lid (after drying
            from any previous uses) when the temperature was average, that way, you
            would have negative pressure on a cold morning and positive when it warmed
            up. The bottom line is this: If water can get in there (and it can) then
            air can get out. I would not lose too much sleep over this one.

            Chuck
          • David & Shirley Wallace
            Several months ago I helped a mate move his just completed canoe with built in sealed floatation chambers out of his work shop , now the mates shop was a thing
            Message 5 of 25 , May 1, 2004
              Several months ago I helped a mate move his just completed canoe with built
              in sealed floatation chambers out of his work shop , now the mates shop was
              a thing of wonder , it's under his house and is enclosed in the front by big
              sliding glass doors , he has equipment that I can only dream about , air
              line out lets in several places along each wall , dust extraction on every
              machine and even set up to extract dust from any project he is sanding , he
              also has a big extraction fan set up on one wall with a filter and movable
              screens for spray painting , and he also has ceiling fans and a
              air-conditioning system in place that pretty much goes non stop during the
              summer , now I think that was what caused the problem , when you build a
              canoe in a workshop where the temp is 72*F and then move it outside where
              the temp is 118*F in the shade and the canoe is sitting in full sun where
              god knows what temp it is some thing is going to give , and it did with a
              audible pop and cracked along one seam , it was easily repairable , we just
              got a round plastic screw in hatch , cut a opening for it , while it was
              open we turned the canoe on it's side and poured epoxy into it so that it
              run into the crack and sealed it off , we then added a layer of fibreglass
              tape to the outside of the crack and epoxied over it , we also added a hatch
              to the rear floatation compartment and also a 1/16" breather hole to each
              compartment , he has since moved town to a new job but I got a email from
              him recently and the canoe is still going fine and getting a lot more use
              than it would have out here were water is a lot scarcer

              David Wallace


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@...>
              To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 4:33 AM
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Flotation


              > > Can you get/make some kind of pressure relief
              > > valve?
              > >
              > > Bryant - befuddled as usual
              >
              > I think this is a red herring. I seriously doubt that any of us could
              make
              > an air tight compartment, and if we could, wood is a strong enough
              material
              > that it would not likely break from such a differential. Besides, if the
              > chamber were air tight, it would be neutral pressure at the temperature
              that
              > you closed the lid. If you were worried, just close the lid (after drying
              > from any previous uses) when the temperature was average, that way, you
              > would have negative pressure on a cold morning and positive when it warmed
              > up. The bottom line is this: If water can get in there (and it can) then
              > air can get out. I would not lose too much sleep over this one.
              >
              > Chuck
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Lepage Roger
              ... with built ... shop was ... front by big ... about , air ... on every ... sanding , he ... movable ... during the ... build a ... outside where ... sun
              Message 6 of 25 , May 1, 2004
                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "David & Shirley Wallace "
                <swallace@c...> wrote:
                > Several months ago I helped a mate move his just completed canoe
                with built
                > in sealed floatation chambers out of his work shop , now the mates
                shop was
                > a thing of wonder , it's under his house and is enclosed in the
                front by big
                > sliding glass doors , he has equipment that I can only dream
                about , air
                > line out lets in several places along each wall , dust extraction
                on every
                > machine and even set up to extract dust from any project he is
                sanding , he
                > also has a big extraction fan set up on one wall with a filter and
                movable
                > screens for spray painting , and he also has ceiling fans and a
                > air-conditioning system in place that pretty much goes non stop
                during the
                > summer , now I think that was what caused the problem , when you
                build a
                > canoe in a workshop where the temp is 72*F and then move it
                outside where
                > the temp is 118*F in the shade and the canoe is sitting in full
                sun where
                > god knows what temp it is some thing is going to give , and it did
                with a
                > audible pop and cracked along one seam , it was easily
                repairable , we just
                > got a round plastic screw in hatch , cut a opening for it , while
                it was
                > open we turned the canoe on it's side and poured epoxy into it so
                that it
                > run into the crack and sealed it off , we then added a layer of
                fibreglass
                > tape to the outside of the crack and epoxied over it , we also
                added a hatch
                > to the rear floatation compartment and also a 1/16" breather hole
                to each
                > compartment , he has since moved town to a new job but I got a
                email from
                > him recently and the canoe is still going fine and getting a lot
                more use
                > than it would have out here were water is a lot scarcer
                >
                > David Wallace
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...>
                > To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 4:33 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Flotation
                >
                >
                > > > Can you get/make some kind of pressure relief
                > > > valve?
                > > >
                > > > Bryant - befuddled as usual
                > >
                > > I think this is a red herring. I seriously doubt that any of us
                could
                > make
                > > an air tight compartment, and if we could, wood is a strong
                enough
                > material
                > > that it would not likely break from such a differential.
                Besides, if the
                > > chamber were air tight, it would be neutral pressure at the
                temperature
                > that
                > > you closed the lid. If you were worried, just close the lid
                (after drying
                > > from any previous uses) when the temperature was average, that
                way, you
                > > would have negative pressure on a cold morning and positive when
                it warmed
                > > up. The bottom line is this: If water can get in there (and it
                can) then
                > > air can get out. I would not lose too much sleep over this one.
                > >
                > > Chuck
                > >
                > >to your floatation chambers, I would recommend just a pin
                hole writh in the center of the bulkhead. Not water should
                come in but weather pressure should flow through,just that.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Lepage Roger
                ... mates ... extraction ... and ... did ... while ... so ... hole ... us ... when ... it ... one. ... from 65 have it and has never blow out and when I open
                Message 7 of 25 , May 1, 2004
                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Lepage Roger" <roglep@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "David & Shirley Wallace "
                  > <swallace@c...> wrote:
                  > > Several months ago I helped a mate move his just completed canoe
                  > with built
                  > > in sealed floatation chambers out of his work shop , now the
                  mates
                  > shop was
                  > > a thing of wonder , it's under his house and is enclosed in the
                  > front by big
                  > > sliding glass doors , he has equipment that I can only dream
                  > about , air
                  > > line out lets in several places along each wall , dust
                  extraction
                  > on every
                  > > machine and even set up to extract dust from any project he is
                  > sanding , he
                  > > also has a big extraction fan set up on one wall with a filter
                  and
                  > movable
                  > > screens for spray painting , and he also has ceiling fans and a
                  > > air-conditioning system in place that pretty much goes non stop
                  > during the
                  > > summer , now I think that was what caused the problem , when you
                  > build a
                  > > canoe in a workshop where the temp is 72*F and then move it
                  > outside where
                  > > the temp is 118*F in the shade and the canoe is sitting in full
                  > sun where
                  > > god knows what temp it is some thing is going to give , and it
                  did
                  > with a
                  > > audible pop and cracked along one seam , it was easily
                  > repairable , we just
                  > > got a round plastic screw in hatch , cut a opening for it ,
                  while
                  > it was
                  > > open we turned the canoe on it's side and poured epoxy into it
                  so
                  > that it
                  > > run into the crack and sealed it off , we then added a layer of
                  > fibreglass
                  > > tape to the outside of the crack and epoxied over it , we also
                  > added a hatch
                  > > to the rear floatation compartment and also a 1/16" breather
                  hole
                  > to each
                  > > compartment , he has since moved town to a new job but I got a
                  > email from
                  > > him recently and the canoe is still going fine and getting a lot
                  > more use
                  > > than it would have out here were water is a lot scarcer
                  > >
                  > > David Wallace
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...>
                  > > To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 4:33 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Flotation
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > > Can you get/make some kind of pressure relief
                  > > > > valve?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Bryant - befuddled as usual
                  > > >
                  > > > I think this is a red herring. I seriously doubt that any of
                  us
                  > could
                  > > make
                  > > > an air tight compartment, and if we could, wood is a strong
                  > enough
                  > > material
                  > > > that it would not likely break from such a differential.
                  > Besides, if the
                  > > > chamber were air tight, it would be neutral pressure at the
                  > temperature
                  > > that
                  > > > you closed the lid. If you were worried, just close the lid
                  > (after drying
                  > > > from any previous uses) when the temperature was average, that
                  > way, you
                  > > > would have negative pressure on a cold morning and positive
                  when
                  > it warmed
                  > > > up. The bottom line is this: If water can get in there (and
                  it
                  > can) then
                  > > > air can get out. I would not lose too much sleep over this
                  one.
                  > > >
                  > > > Chuck
                  > > >
                  > > >to your floatation chambers, I would recommend just a pin
                  > hole writh in the center of the bulkhead. Not water should
                  > come in but weather pressure should flow through,just that.
                  > > >
                  > > >Sory, I should have wrote right in the center. my hold MIRROR
                  from 65 have it and has never blow out and when I open up
                  to place a plastic port hole under the seats the polyester
                  > > spetial still aromed.>
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                • Chuck Leinweber
                  ... I hate to beat a dead horse, and I m not picking on you, Lincoln, but there is a big difference between the pressure gradient created by the sun shining on
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                    > However, I was once involved in a a medical gadged which was
                    > sealed but had to survive going up in unpressurized cargo bay of
                    > airplane. Turns out internal pressure would blow off membrane
                    > switch/cover plate. Gore Tex patch seemed to fix this. Might work on
                    > boat too.

                    I hate to beat a dead horse, and I'm not picking on you, Lincoln, but there
                    is a big difference between the pressure gradient created by the sun shining
                    on the outside of a flotation chamber and that of the cargo hold of a jet
                    airliner flying at 35 thousand feet. That said, I like your Gor-Tex
                    solution.

                    Chuck
                  • Lincoln Ross
                    Well, I don t actually have a boat that I m putting flotation tanks in; I m going to use pool noodles if I get around to it. Even have fasteners build in.
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                      Well, I don't actually have a boat that I'm putting flotation tanks in;
                      I"m going to use pool noodles if I get around to it. Even have fasteners
                      build in. However, I was once involved in a a medical gadged which was
                      sealed but had to survive going up in unpressurized cargo bay of
                      airplane. Turns out internal pressure would blow off membrane
                      switch/cover plate. Gore Tex patch seemed to fix this. Might work on
                      boat too.

                      >Bryant wrote:
                      >
                      >Two good points, Ross. Ya think a handful of nylon screen wadded up
                      >and put in an inspection port would do the trick re keeping animal
                      >life out?
                      >
                      >As for the airtight aspect - hmmm. If I had Michalak style hatch
                      >covers I'd expect them to burp if the air pressure got too high. But
                      >I don't have them. Can you get/make some kind of pressure relief
                      >valve?
                      >
                      >Bryant - befuddled as usual
                      >
                    • woodcraftssuch
                      ... on ... but there ... sun shining ... a jet ... With an airtight chamber such as in a canoe or kayak(no hatch)if the sun alone can break it,that seems
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
                        > > However, I was once involved in a a medical gadged which was
                        > > sealed but had to survive going up in unpressurized cargo bay of
                        > > airplane. Turns out internal pressure would blow off membrane
                        > > switch/cover plate. Gore Tex patch seemed to fix this. Might work
                        on
                        > > boat too.
                        >
                        > I hate to beat a dead horse, and I'm not picking on you, Lincoln,
                        but there
                        > is a big difference between the pressure gradient created by the
                        sun shining
                        > on the outside of a flotation chamber and that of the cargo hold of
                        a jet
                        > airliner flying at 35 thousand feet. That said, I like your Gor-Tex
                        > solution.
                        >
                        > Chuck

                        With an airtight chamber such as in a canoe or kayak(no hatch)if
                        the sun alone can break it,that seems reason enough to vent it.I'm
                        wondering if going over a mountain would build up enough pressure to
                        break things?
                      • teachtech47
                        Alright group, I have been trying to follow this string, but I am not sure I picked up on why you don t like foam filling the voids for floatation? I think I
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                          Alright group, I have been trying to follow this string, but I am not
                          sure I picked up on why you don't like foam filling the voids for
                          floatation? I think I would much rather have the positive fill of
                          foam in a sealed area than worry about leakage rotting something. In
                          the larsboat I am building, I filled the front and rear with foam.
                          After I used epoxy fillets and tape on all seams and epoxy coated the
                          wood. Now I don't have to worry about if I got some parts air tight
                          or not.




                          > > > However, I was once involved in a a medical gadged which was
                          > > > sealed but had to survive going up in unpressurized cargo bay of
                          > > > airplane. Turns out internal pressure would blow off membrane
                          > > > switch/cover plate. Gore Tex patch seemed to fix this. Might
                          work
                          > on
                          > > > boat too.
                          > >
                          > > I hate to beat a dead horse, and I'm not picking on you, Lincoln,
                          > but there
                          > > is a big difference between the pressure gradient created by the
                          > sun shining
                          > > on the outside of a flotation chamber and that of the cargo hold
                          of
                          > a jet
                          > > airliner flying at 35 thousand feet. That said, I like your Gor-
                          Tex
                          > > solution.
                          > >
                          > > Chuck
                          >
                          > With an airtight chamber such as in a canoe or kayak(no hatch)
                          if
                          > the sun alone can break it,that seems reason enough to vent it.I'm
                          > wondering if going over a mountain would build up enough pressure
                          to
                          > break things?
                        • Chuck Leinweber
                          ... First let s be clear that any chamber needs an opening for inspection and drying. If you are really worried about it being air tight (which is unlikely)
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                            > With an airtight chamber such as in a canoe or kayak(no hatch)if
                            > the sun alone can break it,that seems reason enough to vent it.I'm
                            > wondering if going over a mountain would build up enough pressure to
                            > break things?

                            First let's be clear that any chamber needs an opening for inspection and
                            drying. If you are really worried about it being air tight (which is
                            unlikely) simply drill a 1/16" hole in the hatch cover or deckplate. This
                            will even the pressure and not let too much water in.

                            Chuck
                          • Chuck Leinweber
                            Poured-in foam seals the chamber so that the water that gets in (Oh yes, it will get in) has trouble getting out, and rot occurs in that damp atmosphere. Ok,
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                              Poured-in foam seals the chamber so that the water that gets in (Oh yes, it
                              will get in) has trouble getting out, and rot occurs in that damp
                              atmosphere. Ok, lots of boats rot, and any boat can be maintained so that
                              it does not rot, it's just that it is easier to keep that from happening if
                              you can dry the boat out between uses. If five years is enough for you,
                              don't worry about it.

                              Chuck


                              > Alright group, I have been trying to follow this string, but I am not
                              > sure I picked up on why you don't like foam filling the voids for
                              > floatation? I think I would much rather have the positive fill of
                              > foam in a sealed area than worry about leakage rotting something. In
                              > the larsboat I am building, I filled the front and rear with foam.
                              > After I used epoxy fillets and tape on all seams and epoxy coated the
                              > wood. Now I don't have to worry about if I got some parts air tight
                              > or not.
                            • Bruce C. Anderson
                              Howdy ... A rule of thumb is one inch of mercury pressure drop for each 1000 feet of altitude gain. This is just a rule of thumb. But it s good enough for
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                                Howdy

                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Flotation
                                >
                                >I'm
                                > wondering if going over a mountain would build up enough pressure to
                                > break things?

                                A rule of thumb is one inch of mercury pressure drop for each 1000 feet of
                                altitude gain. This is just a rule of thumb. But it's good enough for any
                                altitudes that you are likely to drive a car to, let alone float a boat at.
                                :) one inch of mercury is equal to approximately .491154 pounds per square
                                inch of pressure.

                                Good luck

                                See Ya

                                Have Fun

                                Bruce

                                http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
                              • Bruce C. Anderson
                                Howdy ... Air is a very difficult to keep either in or out of a space. Take a balloon for example, if you inflate a balloon with your breath and tie it off,
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                                  Howdy

                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Flotation
                                  >
                                  > I am not
                                  > sure I picked up on why you don't like foam filling the voids for
                                  > floatation?

                                  Air is a very difficult to keep either in or out of a space. Take a balloon
                                  for example, if you inflate a balloon with your breath and tie it off, how
                                  long will it stay inflated? Not a week that's for sure. So where does the
                                  air go? The air actually leaks out between the latex molecules. So you
                                  have to ask your self, is your enclosed space as tight as a balloon.

                                  Water is also very difficult to stop. The H20 molecule is really small.
                                  Just one hydrogen and 2 oxygen atoms. So it doesn't take much of an opening
                                  to let water in. Perversely that same opening that let the water in,
                                  prevents it from getting out easily.

                                  Any tightly enclosed space that is subject to temperature changes similar to
                                  those experienced between day and night will transpire air and water vapor.
                                  When the temperature drops the water tends to condense inside that enclosed
                                  space. When the temperature increases, it vaporizes, but not before some of
                                  the air in the confined space has escaped. As a result, unless the confined
                                  space is "AIRTIGHT" it will act as a moisture pump. No big deal though
                                  since we are not talking GALLONS of water. Just a little
                                  moisture..................................Just enough moisture to make a
                                  nice living environment for the life forms that eat wood. The results of
                                  those life forms is what we call rot.

                                  But then I couldn't get a clue if I went to a clue store with a coupon and
                                  my momma. :P

                                  Good Luck

                                  See Ya

                                  Have Fun

                                  Bruce

                                  http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
                                • Mark
                                  I m with you, Teach. Good pour-in foam is well nigh impervious to water for lengthy periods, adheres to the surrounding surface and creates an incredible
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                                    I'm with you, Teach. Good pour-in foam is well nigh impervious to water for lengthy
                                    periods, adheres to the surrounding surface and creates an incredible structural
                                    enhancement. With well filled and well sealed chambers, the only way moisture and rot
                                    spores can get get in is by penetrating from outside right on through the planking.

                                    If the boat is that water logged, I may still be holding on to that block of foam.
                                    Mark

                                    teachtech47 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Alright group, I have been trying to follow this string, but I am not
                                    > sure I picked up on why you don't like foam filling the voids for
                                    > floatation? I think I would much rather have the positive fill of
                                    > foam in a sealed area than worry about leakage rotting something. In
                                    > the larsboat I am building, I filled the front and rear with foam.
                                    > After I used epoxy fillets and tape on all seams and epoxy coated the
                                    > wood. Now I don't have to worry about if I got some parts air tight
                                    > or not.>
                                  • Mark
                                    Flogging a little here, Chuck... You re right that water _might_ get in. I think it s most likely where the need for repair is clear. ( First step to dry
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                                      Flogging a little here, Chuck...

                                      You're right that water _might_ get in. I think it's most likely where the need for repair
                                      is clear. ( First step to dry everything out. ) Five years for an owner built boat is
                                      pretty good value. Stacked against the other serious on the water hazards, foolproof
                                      positive flotation seems a plus.

                                      If a 'gator bites your boat in two, some of the foam will still be floating there to throw
                                      at him.
                                      Mark

                                      Chuck Leinweber wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Poured-in foam seals the chamber so that the water that gets in (Oh yes, it
                                      > will get in) has trouble getting out, and rot occurs in that damp
                                      > atmosphere. Ok, lots of boats rot, and any boat can be maintained so that
                                      > it does not rot, it's just that it is easier to keep that from happening if
                                      > you can dry the boat out between uses. If five years is enough for you,
                                      > don't worry about it.
                                      >
                                    • Chuck Leinweber
                                      Horses for courses, Mark. I figure that if your boat gets so damaged that the flotation chambers disintegrate, you have trouble way beyond the specter of
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 2, 2004
                                        Horses for courses, Mark. I figure that if your boat gets so damaged that
                                        the flotation chambers disintegrate, you have trouble way beyond the specter
                                        of sinking. Speaking of spores not getting into the sealed and foam filled
                                        chamber, they are already in there, just waiting for a bit of moisture. I
                                        have seen wood next to foam in boats, and it does not last well at all.
                                        However what you say about the great flotation and structural benefits are
                                        true.

                                        Chuck


                                        > Flogging a little here, Chuck...
                                        >
                                        > You're right that water _might_ get in. I think it's most likely where the
                                        need for repair
                                        > is clear. ( First step to dry everything out. ) Five years for an owner
                                        built boat is
                                        > pretty good value. Stacked against the other serious on the water
                                        hazards, foolproof
                                        > positive flotation seems a plus.
                                        >
                                        > If a 'gator bites your boat in two, some of the foam will still be
                                        floating there to throw
                                        > at him.
                                        > Mark
                                        >
                                        > Chuck Leinweber wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Poured-in foam seals the chamber so that the water that gets in (Oh yes,
                                        it
                                        > > will get in) has trouble getting out, and rot occurs in that damp
                                        > > atmosphere. Ok, lots of boats rot, and any boat can be maintained so
                                        that
                                        > > it does not rot, it's just that it is easier to keep that from happening
                                        if
                                        > > you can dry the boat out between uses. If five years is enough for you,
                                        > > don't worry about it.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • teachtech47
                                        I am with you all the way! I sealed the spaces with epoxy, epoxy fillets, glass tape with epoxy. all on the inside. The outside is much the same. Epoxy the
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 3, 2004
                                          I am with you all the way! I sealed the spaces with epoxy, epoxy
                                          fillets, glass tape with epoxy. all on the inside. The outside is
                                          much the same. Epoxy the wood, epoxy fillets, glass tape with epoxy,
                                          and finally glass overall with epoxy. This is for a cartopper too!
                                          Any water that gets in and manages to stay for the couple of days
                                          between uses is welcome to a new home. If I have to build another
                                          one in a few years,,,,, well it give me something to plan for.




                                          > I'm with you, Teach. Good pour-in foam is well nigh impervious to
                                          water for lengthy
                                          > periods, adheres to the surrounding surface and creates an
                                          incredible structural
                                          > enhancement. With well filled and well sealed chambers, the only
                                          way moisture and rot
                                          > spores can get get in is by penetrating from outside right on
                                          through the planking.
                                          >
                                          > If the boat is that water logged, I may still be holding on to
                                          that block of foam.
                                          > Mark
                                          >
                                          > teachtech47 wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Alright group, I have been trying to follow this string, but I
                                          am not
                                          > > sure I picked up on why you don't like foam filling the voids for
                                          > > floatation? I think I would much rather have the positive fill
                                          of
                                          > > foam in a sealed area than worry about leakage rotting
                                          something. In
                                          > > the larsboat I am building, I filled the front and rear with
                                          foam.
                                          > > After I used epoxy fillets and tape on all seams and epoxy
                                          coated the
                                          > > wood. Now I don't have to worry about if I got some parts air
                                          tight
                                          > > or not.>
                                        • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                                          Don t go boating in Columbia Slough and you won t have to worry about alligators, Mark. ;o) ... floating there to throw ... -- John
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 3, 2004
                                            Don't go boating in Columbia Slough and you won't have to worry about
                                            alligators, Mark. ;o)

                                            On Sun, 02 May 2004 22:08:01 -0700, Mark wrote:
                                            > ...
                                            > If a 'gator bites your boat in two, some of the foam will still be
                                            floating there to throw
                                            > at him.
                                            > ...

                                            --
                                            John <jkohnen@...>
                                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                                            What is more pleasant than a friendly little yacht, a long stretch of
                                            smooth water, a gentle breeze, the stars? <Billy Atkin>
                                          • Mark
                                            ... Right! There, I just wear a HAZMAT suit. Mark
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 4, 2004
                                              jhkohnen@... wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Don't go boating in Columbia Slough and you won't have to worry about
                                              > alligators, Mark. ;o)
                                              >

                                              Right! There, I just wear a HAZMAT suit.
                                              Mark
                                            • john ozolins
                                              Thanks for the replys. I already have the Coast Guard rules and specs (over 200 pages). Those rules pertain mainly to boat manufacturers, and primarily pertain
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Feb 21, 2008
                                                Thanks for the replys. I already have the Coast Guard
                                                rules and specs (over 200 pages). Those rules pertain
                                                mainly to boat manufacturers, and primarily pertain to
                                                boats over 16' in length, and cause massive headaches
                                                when trying to decipher. I have gone thru the
                                                calculations using both foam and air chambers for
                                                flotation. Since the boat is made of wood, that adds
                                                to the flotation. By my calculations, as the boat is
                                                wood, and of primarily of an open cockpit design, the
                                                amount of foam, if any, is almost negligable. One CF
                                                of foam provides 60.3 Lbs of flotation, and as my boat
                                                is being designed for a 250 Lb. capacity, 4 CF of foam
                                                is what I calculated as being needed, which is the
                                                same as a air chamber. Somehow, this doesn,t seem
                                                correct. In my design I have provided for 5 CF of
                                                space for flotation.


                                                ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                                know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                                              • Nels
                                                ... In my design I have provided for 5 CF of ... In a wooden boat that size 2CF should be more than adequate. Don t forget if you and a passenger are wearing
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Feb 21, 2008
                                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john ozolins <jaozz@...> wrote:
                                                  In my design I have provided for 5 CF of
                                                  > space for flotation.
                                                  >
                                                  In a wooden boat that size 2CF should be more than adequate. Don't
                                                  forget if you and a passenger are wearing proper PFD's you only have
                                                  to float what is heavier than water in the boat (Keep in tied down).

                                                  Nels
                                                • cpack
                                                  Hello John, My experience with floatation has been with canoes and kayaks. Based on this there are two considerations ( among others) that I find useful. (1)
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Feb 21, 2008
                                                    Hello John,
                                                    My experience with floatation has been with canoes and kayaks. Based on
                                                    this there are two considerations ( among others) that I find useful.
                                                    (1) The overall amount of flotation i.e. the boat will not sink with or
                                                    without the skipper.
                                                    (2) The location of the flotation as to stability when swamped and to assist
                                                    recovery.
                                                    In white water boats it is common to "fill the boat" with as much flotation
                                                    as possible to provide a high bouyancy, easy to right, and bail craft.
                                                    In boats used in calm waters, close to shore, there may be only enough
                                                    flotaion to float the boat to shore and recover there.
                                                    It is difficult to have too much flotation unless it makes the boat stable
                                                    upside down or some other odd occurance.
                                                    Bear in mind that air tanks can have hatches, ports or lids to provide
                                                    access and storage while foam never leaks and is very reliable even when
                                                    holed. Each has its advantages. A rule of thumb in small boats like these is
                                                    to use flotation( 62.5 pounds for fresh water per cubic foot) for the dry
                                                    weight of the craft and crew placed to give enough bouancy to float the
                                                    gunnels clear so the craft may be bailed dry.
                                                    Hope this helps.
                                                    Float safe,
                                                    Curtis .

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "john ozolins" <jaozz@...>
                                                    To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 3:47 PM
                                                    Subject: [Michalak] Flotation


                                                    > Thanks for the replys. I already have the Coast Guard
                                                    > rules and specs (over 200 pages). Those rules pertain
                                                    > mainly to boat manufacturers, and primarily pertain to
                                                    > boats over 16' in length, and cause massive headaches
                                                    > when trying to decipher. I have gone thru the
                                                    > calculations using both foam and air chambers for
                                                    > flotation. Since the boat is made of wood, that adds
                                                    > to the flotation. By my calculations, as the boat is
                                                    > wood, and of primarily of an open cockpit design, the
                                                    > amount of foam, if any, is almost negligable. One CF
                                                    > of foam provides 60.3 Lbs of flotation, and as my boat
                                                    > is being designed for a 250 Lb. capacity, 4 CF of foam
                                                    > is what I calculated as being needed, which is the
                                                    > same as a air chamber. Somehow, this doesn,t seem
                                                    > correct. In my design I have provided for 5 CF of
                                                    > space for flotation.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                    > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                                                    > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                                                    > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • rhaldridge
                                                    ... Keep in mind that you need to do more than just keep the boat afloat-- there has to be enough freeboard when swamped to allow you to bail the boat out. If
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Feb 21, 2008
                                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john ozolins <jaozz@> wrote:
                                                      > In my design I have provided for 5 CF of
                                                      > > space for flotation.
                                                      > >
                                                      > In a wooden boat that size 2CF should be more than adequate. Don't
                                                      > forget if you and a passenger are wearing proper PFD's you only have
                                                      > to float what is heavier than water in the boat (Keep in tied down).
                                                      >

                                                      Keep in mind that you need to do more than just keep the boat afloat--
                                                      there has to be enough freeboard when swamped to allow you to bail the
                                                      boat out. If the boat doesn't float high enough, in any kind of chop,
                                                      water will come in as fast as you bail it out.

                                                      Proper placement of the flotation is also an issue. If too high, it
                                                      doesn't start working until the gunwales are awash. If too low, it
                                                      can contribute to instability when the boat is full of water.

                                                      Ray
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