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Re: AF4G Slot Top or Pilot House?

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  • davidsc43
    Thanks so much for these photos. I ve been coveting a Shanteuse, but this may be a better boat for our needs. Everyone: take a gander at these pix! ... put
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 6, 2003
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      Thanks so much for these photos. I've been coveting a Shanteuse, but
      this may be a better boat for our needs. Everyone: take a gander at
      these pix!






      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "antec007" <pateson@c...> wrote:


      > I just uploaded some photos of my PK-20 from a recent two-night trip


      > to a mountain lake, here in Oregon.


      > They are in the Files Section of this group.


      >


      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/files/%22PK-20%22/


      >


      > Since my PK is slightly smaller than the AF4G most of the things I


      > have done should work on the Grande too.


      > I think the standard AF4-18 is too small in height for the Cabin


      > setup I have.


      > But the little flip up table should work on an 18. I have more


      > detailed pictures and explanation of the table if anybody wants to


      > email me.


      > Very slick with spring loaded supports and only takes a second to
      put


      > up or take down. There is storage for a little 1 burner Butane
      stove


      > under/behind the table.


      >


      > The Slot Top is Great. It makes the boat Feel a Lot bigger than


      > its 20' and provides "Wandering Around Room" and makes docking
      easier.


      >


      > I built the slot on the PK a little Wider than it would have been in


      > a straight 10% AF418 scale up. The door opening is angle slightly to


      > give even more room at the top of the door opening.


      > (SkiffAmerica like.)


      >


      > The Slot Cover is a Prototype made of Blue Tarp, but seemed to work


      > pretty well. With the high arched supports it gives Kay almost


      > standing headroom and me fairly comfortable bent over walking
      headroom


      > and still lots of headroom in the cabin even when the bed board is
      up.


      > Enough for comfortable sitting on the forward "head".


      > No head bonking Most of the time.


      > The supports are heat bent 1/2" CPVC pipe that fit into brass(?)


      > copper pipe connectors set into the tops of the slot beams.


      > There are water drain holes drilled in the outer side of the beams.


      > My hands still don't work very well and I didn't want to have to try


      > to deal with snaps, so the whole thing is held to the boat with
      built


      > in shock cords and hooks. The small shock cords on the side slip


      > over cup hooks and pull the top down far enough and tight enough to


      > be pretty rain proof.


      > The Ends are also Prototype. The aft support is 1/4" plywood cut to


      > an arch with the upper edged covered with foam pipe insulation to


      > protect the cover. It slides down over a couple of Lag Bolt with


      > large washers attached under the heads. There is a small piece


      > attached to the bottom that overhangs the double cabin doors.


      > The forward support is 3/4" plywood that replaces the top board in


      > the drop board door. It is also has top edges covered with foam pipe


      > insulation.


      > All the shock cords are built into the cover and just stretch over a


      > single hook on each of the end supports.


      > Setup and takedown takes just a couple of minutes and the top seems


      > to fall into place one I figure out in and out and front and back.


      >


      > I also have a 1/4" top similar to what Max has, only not hinged,
      that


      > I use for trailering and would probably leave on if the weather was


      > going to be real bad. (But I don't plan to be out in Real Bad


      > weather.)


      >


      > The Cabin has low side seats that were designed to take 9" high


      > tucker totes under.


      > We have decided to not use the tote tops. They just get in the way


      > and are not Really needed.


      > 3 Large (9" high) totes and one smaller one on the forward, port
      side.


      > Sleeping bags are stored under a hinged cover at the forward


      > Starboard side. Rolled up Thermorest self inflating mattresses store


      > at the aft end of the Port side compartment.


      > Just barely sitting headroom for me, but Enough at the aft end.


      > Should have made the cabin an inch or two higher. It is only 4"
      above


      > what would have been the flush cabin of the AF4.


      >


      > We are still working on finding the best place for some various
      hooks


      > for hanging things out of the way.


      >


      > The Bed Board is 1/4" plywood with some 3/8" x 1" longitudinal
      pieces


      > on the bottom side as stiffeners.


      > The Bed board rests on the bottom when not in use and just lifts up


      > and sits on long cleats attached to the edges of the seats. Little


      > straps at the aft end to give something to grab. Again, very quick


      > conversion. Just have to remember to get Anything needed for night


      > from the storage as the bed board covers all the storage
      compartments


      > except the sleeping bag storage. <g>


      >


      > The Bimini show is from our old Reinell 21' Cruiser.


      > It fits relatively well for not being designed for the PK. The PK


      > cockpit is actually slightly larger that the old Reinell.


      > I added a 3/4" PVC support at the Cabin end.


      > The top will fold forward over the cabin or, by pulling the PVC pipe


      > from supports, back over the aft compartments.


      > We have found the best place to "Store" the top when on the water is


      > UP. It's out of the way there.


      > I fold it back for trailoring and it hasn't blown off yet.


      >


      > Personally I think a Pilot House would be getting pretty heavy for


      > a "Lightweight Boat", but I have considered a removable one for my
      PK


      > that could be bolted on to extend the cruising season a little.


      > But It's You Boat and You can do Anything you Want.


      >


      > Some of the tricks I have tried on my PK might give somebody some


      > ideas.


      >


      > Good luck


      > Have Fun


      >


      > Pat Patteson


      > Molalla, Oregon


      >


      >


      >


      >


      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "twgardne2000" <terry.gardner@s...>


      > wrote:


      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "vexatious2001" <cadbury@s...>


      > wrote:


      > > >


      > > > > Best regards,


      > > > > Terry


      > > > >


      > > > >


      > > > >


      > > >


      > > > By the way, about 20 minutes ago I was cleaning-out


      > > > my e-mail files and ran across an e-mail from you


      > > > concerning the AF4G from 04/30/03


      > > >


      > > > Apparently I missed seeing it way back when.


      > > >


      > > > Are you still looking for those answers or have


      > > > you moved on to bigger and better things?


      > > >


      > > > I usually try to answer all my e-mails, but since


      > > > I get so much spam about enlarging some areas of


      > > > my anatomy while shrinking other areas of it, I


      > > > occasionaly miss a "real" e-mail.


      > > >


      > > > Sorry.


      > > >


      > > >


      > > > Max


      > >


      > > No problem. And yes I am still interested in the answers. I like


      > > the slot type cabin top on Jim's designs and appreciate the


      > > advantages they have but an enclosed cabin has its advantages


      > also.


      > > Would an enclosed cabin on the AF4G work with the design of the


      > > boat? I wonder if a standing room pilot house would work also.


      > >


      > > Best regards,


      > > Terry
    • John Ewing
      Pat, nice photos. Remind me, please, of the PK-20 s dimensions. Is the beam wider than the AF4 s? What is the size of the cabin (including verticall)?
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 7, 2003
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        Pat, nice photos. Remind me, please, of the PK-20's dimensions. Is the
        beam wider than the AF4's? What is the size of the cabin (including
        verticall)? Approximately what is the boat's weight (without 'stuff'
        aboard)? Thanks.

        JohnE. (just back from Port Townsend aboard Jamie Orr's Chebacco)

        -----Original Message-----
        From: antec007 [mailto:pateson@...]
        Sent: September 6, 2003 10:53 AM
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Michalak] Re: AF4G Slot Top or Pilot House?

        I just uploaded some photos of my PK-20 from a recent two-night trip
        to a mountain lake, here in Oregon.
        They are in the Files Section of this group.

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/files/%22PK-20%22/

        Since my PK is slightly smaller than the AF4G most of the things I
        have done should work on the Grande too.
        I think the standard AF4-18 is too small in height for the Cabin
        setup I have.
        But the little flip up table should work on an 18. I have more
        detailed pictures and explanation of the table if anybody wants to
        email me.
        Very slick with spring loaded supports and only takes a second to put
        up or take down. There is storage for a little 1 burner Butane stove
        under/behind the table.

        The Slot Top is Great. It makes the boat Feel a Lot bigger than
        its 20' and provides "Wandering Around Room" and makes docking easier.

        I built the slot on the PK a little Wider than it would have been in
        a straight 10% AF418 scale up. The door opening is angle slightly to
        give even more room at the top of the door opening.
        (SkiffAmerica like.)

        The Slot Cover is a Prototype made of Blue Tarp, but seemed to work
        pretty well. With the high arched supports it gives Kay almost
        standing headroom and me fairly comfortable bent over walking headroom
        and still lots of headroom in the cabin even when the bed board is up.
        Enough for comfortable sitting on the forward "head".
        No head bonking Most of the time.
        The supports are heat bent 1/2" CPVC pipe that fit into brass(?)
        copper pipe connectors set into the tops of the slot beams.
        There are water drain holes drilled in the outer side of the beams.
        My hands still don't work very well and I didn't want to have to try
        to deal with snaps, so the whole thing is held to the boat with built
        in shock cords and hooks. The small shock cords on the side slip
        over cup hooks and pull the top down far enough and tight enough to
        be pretty rain proof.
        The Ends are also Prototype. The aft support is 1/4" plywood cut to
        an arch with the upper edged covered with foam pipe insulation to
        protect the cover. It slides down over a couple of Lag Bolt with
        large washers attached under the heads. There is a small piece
        attached to the bottom that overhangs the double cabin doors.
        The forward support is 3/4" plywood that replaces the top board in
        the drop board door. It is also has top edges covered with foam pipe
        insulation.
        All the shock cords are built into the cover and just stretch over a
        single hook on each of the end supports.
        Setup and takedown takes just a couple of minutes and the top seems
        to fall into place one I figure out in and out and front and back.

        I also have a 1/4" top similar to what Max has, only not hinged, that
        I use for trailering and would probably leave on if the weather was
        going to be real bad. (But I don't plan to be out in Real Bad
        weather.)

        The Cabin has low side seats that were designed to take 9" high
        tucker totes under.
        We have decided to not use the tote tops. They just get in the way
        and are not Really needed.
        3 Large (9" high) totes and one smaller one on the forward, port side.
        Sleeping bags are stored under a hinged cover at the forward
        Starboard side. Rolled up Thermorest self inflating mattresses store
        at the aft end of the Port side compartment.
        Just barely sitting headroom for me, but Enough at the aft end.
        Should have made the cabin an inch or two higher. It is only 4" above
        what would have been the flush cabin of the AF4.

        We are still working on finding the best place for some various hooks
        for hanging things out of the way.

        The Bed Board is 1/4" plywood with some 3/8" x 1" longitudinal pieces
        on the bottom side as stiffeners.
        The Bed board rests on the bottom when not in use and just lifts up
        and sits on long cleats attached to the edges of the seats. Little
        straps at the aft end to give something to grab. Again, very quick
        conversion. Just have to remember to get Anything needed for night
        from the storage as the bed board covers all the storage compartments
        except the sleeping bag storage. <g>

        The Bimini show is from our old Reinell 21' Cruiser.
        It fits relatively well for not being designed for the PK. The PK
        cockpit is actually slightly larger that the old Reinell.
        I added a 3/4" PVC support at the Cabin end.
        The top will fold forward over the cabin or, by pulling the PVC pipe
        from supports, back over the aft compartments.
        We have found the best place to "Store" the top when on the water is
        UP. It's out of the way there.
        I fold it back for trailoring and it hasn't blown off yet.

        Personally I think a Pilot House would be getting pretty heavy for
        a "Lightweight Boat", but I have considered a removable one for my PK
        that could be bolted on to extend the cruising season a little.
        But It's You Boat and You can do Anything you Want.

        Some of the tricks I have tried on my PK might give somebody some
        ideas.

        Good luck
        Have Fun

        Pat Patteson
        Molalla, Oregon




        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "twgardne2000" <terry.gardner@s...>
        wrote:
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "vexatious2001" <cadbury@s...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > > Best regards,
        > > > Terry
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > By the way, about 20 minutes ago I was cleaning-out
        > > my e-mail files and ran across an e-mail from you
        > > concerning the AF4G from 04/30/03
        > >
        > > Apparently I missed seeing it way back when.
        > >
        > > Are you still looking for those answers or have
        > > you moved on to bigger and better things?
        > >
        > > I usually try to answer all my e-mails, but since
        > > I get so much spam about enlarging some areas of
        > > my anatomy while shrinking other areas of it, I
        > > occasionaly miss a "real" e-mail.
        > >
        > > Sorry.
        > >
        > >
        > > Max
        >
        > No problem. And yes I am still interested in the answers. I like
        > the slot type cabin top on Jim's designs and appreciate the
        > advantages they have but an enclosed cabin has its advantages
        also.
        > Would an enclosed cabin on the AF4G work with the design of the
        > boat? I wonder if a standing room pilot house would work also.
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Terry





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      • sctree
        ... Thanks for the update on what you ve done. The photos show a nice setup. When you get a chance, post the table photos..... The removable pilothouse sounds
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 8, 2003
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          antec007 wrote:

          > I just uploaded some photos ......


          Thanks for the update on what you've done. The photos show a nice setup.

          When you get a chance, post the table photos.....

          The removable pilothouse sounds interesting

          Rick
        • antec007
          Hope you guys had a pleasant voyage and lots of fun at Port Townsend. Maybe I can make it next year. Sounds great. Did Jamie take his pipes? If so, did you
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 9, 2003
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            Hope you guys had a pleasant voyage and lots of fun at Port Townsend.
            Maybe I can make it next year. Sounds great.
            Did Jamie take his pipes? If so, did you have any trouble getting
            them through inspection? They Were intended as Terror Weapons.
            Scared Me at 6 AM.

            The PK-20 is 19'9"OA x 5'max wide waterline 6'wide at cabin top.
            Except for the wide stern, the lower hull is a straight 10% scale up
            of the AF4 18. I believe the AF4 is about 4 1/2' wide at the
            waterline.
            The cabin is about 5'wide at the bottom to almost 6'wide at the top.
            The highest part of the cabin sides, (at the bulkhead) is 44 1/2"
            (the AF4 is about 36") The height at the slot is a couple inches high
            than that.
            The cabin is just under 9' long.

            I'm still not sure what it weighs empty.
            I have nice "Scum Line" from the last time out, so yesterday I
            measured the scum line in a couple of places and tried to do figure
            the displacement. I came up with just under 2000 pounds. Ouch!!
            Max, What's your AF4 weigh, all loaded up?
            That was the upper scum line and I assume that that one was with both
            Kay and me and all the stuff aboard. Kay and I weigh a little over
            320 pounds, combined, which seems about right, because there is a
            second line about an inch below the first.
            My calculations give about (very roughly) 300 pounds per inch of
            immersion at the cabin bulkhead.
            When I first put the boat in the water last fall, with no Stuff and
            just my old 15HP the waterline was just above the chines without me
            in it. Maybe just over 3" at the transom. So, using my rough 300#
            estimate, I'd guess the hull and 15HP motor to be about 900-1000
            pounds, which Seems to be about right for a boat of this construction
            and size. (3/4" bottom and slight heavier scantlings than the AF4.)

            If anybody else want to try the calculations, the top scum line was
            at 8" at the transom, 7" at the cabin bulkhead. (almost the center of
            the boat) and just to the heal of the stem, forward.
            The transom is 5' wide at the waterline, the cabin bulkhead is 5'
            wide at the waterline and the stem is 2" (Pointy bow)
            The side angles are only about 6-7 degrees, so negligible for
            calculation purposes.
            Considering all the weight in the stern. 33HP motor, 10 gallons gas,
            big marine battery, trolling motor and me, most of the time, the boat
            sits relatively on its designed lines. (just a lot lower than hoped)
            Kay was in the cockpit most of this trip, catching fish, but she
            usually rides sitting in the forward cabin door with her feet in the
            anchor well to help trim the boat and because it is a Nice, quiet
            place to sit. (and maybe to get as far away from me as she can)
            It Is amazing to me just how Much quieter it is at the front of the
            boat as opposed to 3' away from that old 33. It is pleasant, in the
            cabin. I've been thinking about an engine cover to help with noise,
            But I've got To Much stuff back there already. I've plugged the aft
            compartment drain holes to keep water from sloshing in. They are
            only about 12 above the bottom.
            Learn to live with less Stuff, huh?

            Pat Patteson


            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Ewing <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
            > Pat, nice photos. Remind me, please, of the PK-20's dimensions. Is
            the
            > beam wider than the AF4's? What is the size of the cabin (including
            > verticall)? Approximately what is the boat's weight (without 'stuff'
            > aboard)? Thanks.
            >
            > JohnE. (just back from Port Townsend aboard Jamie Orr's Chebacco)
            >
          • vexatious2001
            ... My AF4, built heavier than the plans show, wieghs right at 1250 lbs loaded for an overnighter and with me in it. Visiting a truck scale was a shocker-
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 9, 2003
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              >

              > Max, What's your AF4 weigh, all loaded up?



              My AF4, built heavier than the plans show, wieghs
              right at 1250 lbs loaded for an "overnighter" and with
              me in it.

              Visiting a truck scale was a shocker- about 100 to 200
              lbs more than I would have guessed.

              By the way, a '56 johnson 10 hp with 9 inch pitch prop
              will plan that boat at a GPS-measure speed of about
              11 1/2 miles (statute) per hour. Anything less than
              full throttle and the boat is dropping off plane.

              That's 125 lbs per horsepower.

              The '57 Johnson 18 hp with 10 inch pitch prop will
              plane at a GPS-measured 12 mph at 3650 rpm. Full
              throttle gives about 4100 rpm. The specifications that
              I have show the motor producing max (nice pun) horsepower
              at 4000 rpm, but do not seem to give a "do-not-exceed"
              rpm. I have no problem with cruising @ 3650, and in
              fact I cruised about 24 miles this past weekend at that
              speed, when out with Jim M.

              Fuel consumption was heavier than I would have thought,
              at about 2 gals/ hour, whereas in the past I had seen
              1.75 gals/ hour, but we ran harder this time.

              When running at the high-end of displacement speeds,
              the 10 hp seems to burn about 1.1 gals/ hour.


              max
            • John Ewing
              Thanks for the PK-20 dimensions and calculations, Pat. We - Jamie Orr, Chris Bennett and I, in WAYWARD LASS -- left Oak Bay Marina on Thursday evening but,
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 9, 2003
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                Thanks for the PK-20 dimensions and calculations, Pat.

                We - Jamie Orr, Chris Bennett and I, in WAYWARD LASS -- left Oak Bay
                Marina on Thursday evening but, deciding not to buck the gale-force
                conditions, moored overnight at an island group just offshore. On Friday
                the seas were 'confused' but the wind was manageable; we sailed about
                halfway to Port Townsend before the wind petered out. Off Point Hudson
                we realized the wind had picked up again and we hoisted sail again,
                making several passes of the PT waterfront and checking all the other
                boats out there.

                Despite the marine weather forecast, conditions were still and foggy for
                the passage home again on Sunday, so we had to rely on Mr. Honda most of
                the way - and Jamie's GPS and dead-reckoning (which magically
                coincided). Just 6-1/2 hours, port to port.

                It was an 'excellent adventure' and as usual we met and talked with any
                number of wonderfully nutty boatguys. Sorry you weren't there too.

                JohnE.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: antec007 [mailto:pateson@...]
                Sent: September 9, 2003 9:45 AM
                To: michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Michalak] PK-20 Dimensions Re: AF4G Slot Top or Pilot House?

                Hope you guys had a pleasant voyage and lots of fun at Port Townsend.
                Maybe I can make it next year. Sounds great.
                Did Jamie take his pipes? If so, did you have any trouble getting
                them through inspection? They Were intended as Terror Weapons.
                Scared Me at 6 AM.

                The PK-20 is 19'9"OA x 5'max wide waterline 6'wide at cabin top. <snip>
                .


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • twgardne2000
                ... get ... away ... best ... So if the TSO technique is used on a boat with chine logs PL Premium on the inside joint is enough? Then armor the chines on the
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 10, 2003
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                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "vexatious2001" <cadbury@s...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > PS -- Also, heed Jim Michalak's advice to run a bead of thickened
                  > > epoxy all around the inner bottom-side joint. My Piragua didn't
                  get
                  > > that either, and developed a slow leak there. I've since sanded
                  away
                  > > all the paint and laid in the fillet. Jim says it's the single
                  best
                  > > thing you can do to extend the life of your boat.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jim says that rather often, but on this one point I
                  > disagree with him.
                  >
                  > Rather than put a "bead" or "fillet" along the inside of
                  > the joint, i believe it to be better to apply way-more
                  > glue to the joint when assembling the boat, so that as
                  > the pieces come together, glue squishes-out everywhere.
                  >
                  > A builder of High-dollar (millions $$) custom boats refers
                  > to this as "T.S.O"- Total Squeeze-Out.
                  >
                  > If the joint has no voids in it (they all being filled with
                  > glue) then I don't see a need to worry about attempting to
                  > seal the joint.
                  >
                  > Actually, I think all the fillet does is seal-in water rather
                  > than seal if out.
                  >
                  > The real killers of wood boats (other than those pointy rocks)
                  > is storing them with water in them, and allowing mud to
                  > accumulate in odd corners.
                  >
                  > Jim's next essay is going to address the accumulated mud
                  > issue.
                  >
                  >
                  > Max

                  So if the TSO technique is used on a boat with chine logs PL Premium
                  on the inside joint is enough? Then armor the chines on the outside
                  with fiberglass and epoxy? What do you use to clean up the TSO
                  around the inside joint?

                  Best regards,
                  Terry
                • vexatious2001
                  ... Tonight i will be glueing gunnel strips on the sort-of larsboat using P. L. Premium construction adhesive. I will start at one end of the boat by
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 10, 2003
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                    >
                    > So if the TSO technique is used on a boat with chine logs PL Premium
                    > on the inside joint is enough? Then armor the chines on the outside
                    > with fiberglass and epoxy? What do you use to clean up the TSO
                    > around the inside joint?
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    > Terry


                    Tonight i will be glueing "gunnel" strips on the
                    "sort-of" larsboat using P. L. Premium construction
                    adhesive.

                    I will start at one end of the boat by putting a
                    thick bead of glue on about the first 4 feet of
                    gunnel, and then commence to driving screws from
                    the inside of the boat into the gunnel, spacing
                    the screws about 6 inches apart.

                    As I "screw-down" the gunnel strip, I will use some
                    scraps of plywood to scrape-off the "squeezed-out"
                    glue and re-apply it further down the gunnel, so as
                    to make the most economical use of the glue.

                    The last bit scraped-off will go in the trash.

                    Also, often the squeeze-out will form a "rope"-looking
                    bead along the joint, and if it is allowed to harden,
                    it can be broken-off or cut-off with a razor knife.

                    If the rope-bead gets smeared, however, you are probably
                    ahead to scrape it off before it hardens.


                    Max
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