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bolger birdwatcher

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  • robert
    has anyone on this website ever sailed or been on the bolger birdwatcher it looks like a fun bot
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 25, 2013
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      has anyone on this website ever sailed or been on the bolger birdwatcher it looks like a fun bot
    • daniel brown
      i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray. To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 25, 2013
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        i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
         

        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        From: rvwburg@...
        Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:00:04 +0000
        Subject: [Michalak] bolger birdwatcher

         
        has anyone on this website ever sailed or been on the bolger birdwatcher it looks like a fun bot


      • daschultz2000
        ... ;-) I d take that as a no. One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin.
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 26, 2013
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          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
          >
          > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
          >


          ;-) I'd take that as a no.

          One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

          A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

          The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

          Don
        • daniel brown
          looks to me michalak s designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i ve seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 26, 2013
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            looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.   michalak's normsboat  may be the state of the art in contemporary sharpies.  

            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            From: daschultz8275@...
            Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:24:10 +0000
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

             


            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
            >
            > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
            >

            ;-) I'd take that as a no.

            One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

            A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

            The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

            Don


          • joe_mapango
            I think even Jim would say he is following in Bolger s footsteps. In many ways Jim took Bolgers ideas even further than Bolger did. I think Jim too the idea
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 26, 2013
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              I think even Jim would say he is following in Bolger's footsteps.  In many ways Jim took Bolgers ideas even further than Bolger did.  I think Jim too the idea if utilitarian design much further.   Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards) and now you have the goodness of the BirdWatcher design AND all the interior space to boot.

               

              I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher.  My own offshore experience is that being outside in the elements can tire out a captain much sooner than would be ideal, and this in turn affects the quality of the decisions made and the endurance obtainable.   Two things I feel are critical to any offshore boat are the ability to self steer, and the ability of a pilot to stay out of the weather.  My own offshore boat (a catamaran) can do neither.  I also find most boats can do neither boat without substantial electrical ability and trouble prone autopilots.   To this end I think a maxi birdwatcher with a ketch rig may be the ticket.  The inside steering gives you protection from weather, and a cat ketch rig would give you the ability to balance at any point of sail.

               

              Just some pondering!

               

               

              Chris Curtis

               

               



              ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <dannyb9@...> wrote:

              looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.   michalak's normsboat  may be the state of the art in contemporary sharpies.  

              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              From: daschultz8275@...
              Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:24:10 +0000
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

               


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
              >
              > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
              >

              ;-) I'd take that as a no.

              One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

              A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

              The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

              Don


            • tom sorensen
              I just got done watching a movie on Netflix about a young girl trying to go round the world non-stop alone in a 40 footer. Deep fin with a lead bulb, modern
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 26, 2013
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                I just got done watching a movie on Netflix about a young girl trying to go round the world non-stop alone in a 40 footer.  Deep fin with a lead bulb, modern sloop rig.  The sheer plethora of Navionics on that boat and the away they never could get it all working right just astounded me.  She need solar panels and 2 wind generators just to power all of it, and if any one component of the system dies she was down to hand steering.

                If she would have had a lug or junk rigged rigged ketch with a full keel and some dimple battery powered GPS units with paper charts, she would have faired much better.  She might even have finished the voyage.  She got wiped out in the indian ocean when the main got stuck up the mast and I believe the autopilot went screwy for the 347th time.


                On Nov 26, 2013, at 11:52 AM, <chrisc@...> <chrisc@...> wrote:


                I think even Jim would say he is following in Bolger's footsteps.  In many ways Jim took Bolgers ideas even further than Bolger did.  I think Jim too the idea if utilitarian design much further.   Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards) and now you have the goodness of the BirdWatcher design AND all the interior space to boot.

                 

                I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher.  My own offshore experience is that being outside in the elements can tire out a captain much sooner than would be ideal, and this in turn affects the quality of the decisions made and the endurance obtainable.   Two things I feel are critical to any offshore boat are the ability to self steer, and the ability of a pilot to stay out of the weather.  My own offshore boat (a catamaran) can do neither.  I also find most boats can do neither boat without substantial electrical ability and trouble prone autopilots.   To this end I think a maxi birdwatcher with a ketch rig may be the ticket.  The inside steering gives you protection from weather, and a cat ketch rig would give you the ability to balance at any point of sail.

                 

                Just some pondering!

                 
                 

                Chris Curtis

                 
                 


                ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <dannyb9@...> wrote:

                looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.   michalak's normsboat  may be the state of the art in contemporary sharpies.  

                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                From: daschultz8275@...
                Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:24:10 +0000
                Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                 


                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                >
                > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray. 
                > 

                ;-) I'd take that as a no.

                One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

                A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

                The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

                Don




              • daschultz2000
                ... Yes. Michalak and Bolger each acknowledge the other in their writings, with each indicating collaboration in various projects. Specifically Michalak
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 27, 2013
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                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.

                  Yes. Michalak and Bolger each acknowledge the other in their writings, with each indicating collaboration in various projects. Specifically Michalak backed up Bolger re design of the steel mast of Sir Joseph Banks, a 100' freighter. Bolger's not about Jim is in Boats with an Open Mind.

                  I would build Boger's Birdwatcher with a Michalak style lee board. IMO cabin area ought to be for people first.
                • daniel brown
                  michilak s af3 is at the top of my list for potential next build. i just like to make things. BUT there s a san juan 21 in my yard that needs refurbishing.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 27, 2013
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                    michilak's af3 is at the top of my list for potential next build. i just like to make things.  BUT there's a san juan 21 in my yard that needs refurbishing. awesome boat, its really fast and has lotsa room for a 21 footer. my sharpie cruiser will have to wait. 
                     

                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    From: daschultz8275@...
                    Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:02:23 +0000
                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                     


                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.

                    Yes. Michalak and Bolger each acknowledge the other in their writings, with each indicating collaboration in various projects. Specifically Michalak backed up Bolger re design of the steel mast of Sir Joseph Banks, a 100' freighter. Bolger's not about Jim is in Boats with an Open Mind.

                    I would build Boger's Birdwatcher with a Michalak style lee board. IMO cabin area ought to be for people first.


                  • Andres Espino
                    The San Juan 21 s a nice boat and also good are the MacGregor and Venture 22.  These 3 can often be found for a song used/ Andrew
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 27, 2013
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                      The San Juan 21 s a nice boat and also good are the MacGregor and Venture 22.  These 3 can often be found for a song used/

                      Andrew


                      From: daniel brown <dannyb9@...>
                      To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:43 AM
                      Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                       
                      michilak's af3 is at the top of my list for potential next build. i just like to make things.  BUT there's a san juan 21 in my yard that needs refurbishing. awesome boat, its really fast and has lotsa room for a 21 footer. my sharpie cruiser will have to wait. 
                       

                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      From: daschultz8275@...
                      Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:02:23 +0000
                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                       


                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.

                      Yes. Michalak and Bolger each acknowledge the other in their writings, with each indicating collaboration in various projects. Specifically Michalak backed up Bolger re design of the steel mast of Sir Joseph Banks, a 100' freighter. Bolger's not about Jim is in Boats with an Open Mind.

                      I would build Boger's Birdwatcher with a Michalak style lee board. IMO cabin area ought to be for people first.




                    • John Kohnen
                      I ve been passenger aboard Bob Larkin s Birdwatcher 2. He even let me steer for a while once. If I don t remember that well it s because the boat was so well
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 27, 2013
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                        I've been passenger aboard Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher 2. He even let me
                        steer for a while once. If I don't remember that well it's because the
                        boat was so well behaved. <g> The boat is fast, and goes good even with
                        the short rig he uses when single-handing because the Solent lugsail is
                        such a handful:

                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/jkohnen/sets/72157607640429553/

                        http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm

                        The off-centerboard does indeed take a big chunk of space in the center of
                        the boat, but there's plenty left because of the length, though the boat
                        isn't very big for its length. Bob has taken the boat to the San Juans a
                        few times, once crossing the Strait of Juan de Fuca to get there. It's a
                        good boat.

                        I owned one of Jim Michalak's Birdwatcher cabined boats, a Jewelbox, Jr. I
                        never got so I liked sailing from inside; for daysailing I'd rather be out
                        in the open air. I can attest to the safety of the Birdwatcher cabin. I
                        capsized my Jewelbox, Jr. in Yaquina Bay once. She lay on her side
                        peacefully, then popped back up on her own when I pulled the sail out of
                        the water. :o)

                        On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 06:00:04 -0800, robert wrote:

                        > has anyone on this website ever sailed or been on the bolger birdwatcher
                        > it looks like a fun bot

                        --
                        John (jkohnen@...)
                        The world is a skirt I want to lift up. (Hanif Kureishi)
                      • graeme19121984
                        that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin. No it don t. Have another look at the specs, centres, displacement, wl, etc, and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 28, 2013
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                          "that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin."

                           

                          No it don't. Have another look at the specs, centres, displacement, wl, etc, and  especially think about where the cob is (well aft) and where the people(big) are meant to sit, and think about why it is pointy sterned, and what Bolger wrote over and over about the whys and wherefores of a pointy sterned box hull. And think about how it's put together with so little waste of material or time. BW is not a big boat, not meant to carry much. She is not a yacht, she is a light weight, fast (lwl, L/B, plus shoal), extreme shoal draft yet quite seaworthy camp cruiser.

                           

                          Q. Why did PCB use rather broad of chord, in this case quadrant shaped, keels?

                          A. His preference was for relaxed sailing.

                           

                          Graeme



                          ---In michalak@yahoogroups.com, <dannyb9@...> wrote:

                          looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.   michalak's normsboat  may be the state of the art in contemporary sharpies.  
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          From: daschultz8275@...
                          Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:24:10 +0000
                          Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                           


                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
                          >

                          ;-) I'd take that as a no.

                          One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

                          A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

                          The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

                          Don


                        • graeme19121984
                          Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim s leeboards (technically off centerboards)... Gosh, I wonder if PCB
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 28, 2013
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                             " Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards)... " Gosh, I wonder if PCB considered and went all through that and rejected it for a host of reasons as unsuited to this boat? Oh, he did, and wrote it all down too.

                             

                            "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.

                             

                            Graeme



                            ---In michalak@yahoogroups.com, <chrisc@...> wrote:

                            I think even Jim would say he is following in Bolger's footsteps.  In many ways Jim took Bolgers ideas even further than Bolger did.  I think Jim too the idea if utilitarian design much further.   Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards) and now you have the goodness of the BirdWatcher design AND all the interior space to boot.

                             

                            I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher.  My own offshore experience is that being outside in the elements can tire out a captain much sooner than would be ideal, and this in turn affects the quality of the decisions made and the endurance obtainable.   Two things I feel are critical to any offshore boat are the ability to self steer, and the ability of a pilot to stay out of the weather.  My own offshore boat (a catamaran) can do neither.  I also find most boats can do neither boat without substantial electrical ability and trouble prone autopilots.   To this end I think a maxi birdwatcher with a ketch rig may be the ticket.  The inside steering gives you protection from weather, and a cat ketch rig would give you the ability to balance at any point of sail.

                             

                            Just some pondering!

                             

                             

                            Chris Curtis

                             

                             



                            ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <dannyb9@...> wrote:

                            looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.   michalak's normsboat  may be the state of the art in contemporary sharpies.  

                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            From: daschultz8275@...
                            Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:24:10 +0000
                            Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                             


                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
                            >

                            ;-) I'd take that as a no.

                            One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

                            A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

                            The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

                            Don


                          • Andre
                            John, Thanks for sharing the links. Beautiful pictures and full of information. Andre Sussa - Piccup Pram
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 28, 2013
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                              John,

                              Thanks for sharing the links. Beautiful pictures and full of information.

                              Andre
                              Sussa - Piccup Pram

                              John Kohnen <jhkohnen@...> escreveu:

                              >I've been passenger aboard Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher 2. He even let me
                              >steer for a while once. If I don't remember that well it's because the
                              >boat was so well behaved. <g> The boat is fast, and goes good even with
                              >the short rig he uses when single-handing because the Solent lugsail is
                              >such a handful:
                              >
                              >http://www.flickr.com/photos/jkohnen/sets/72157607640429553/
                              >
                              >http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm
                              >
                              >The off-centerboard does indeed take a big chunk of space in the center of
                              >the boat, but there's plenty left because of the length, though the boat
                              >isn't very big for its length. Bob has taken the boat to the San Juans a
                              >few times, once crossing the Strait of Juan de Fuca to get there. It's a
                              >good boat.
                              >
                              >I owned one of Jim Michalak's Birdwatcher cabined boats, a Jewelbox, Jr. I
                              >never got so I liked sailing from inside; for daysailing I'd rather be out
                              >in the open air. I can attest to the safety of the Birdwatcher cabin. I
                              >capsized my Jewelbox, Jr. in Yaquina Bay once. She lay on her side
                              >peacefully, then popped back up on her own when I pulled the sail out of
                              >the water. :o)
                              >
                              >On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 06:00:04 -0800, robert wrote:
                              >
                              >> has anyone on this website ever sailed or been on the bolger birdwatcher
                              >> it looks like a fun bot
                              >
                              >--
                              >John (jkohnen@...)
                              >The world is a skirt I want to lift up. (Hanif Kureishi)
                              >
                              >
                              >------------------------------------
                              >
                              >Yahoo Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • sirdarnell
                              I thought one of the things Jim got from Phil was his love for lee boards. Phil used them in a lot of designs for decades before Jim built a birdwatcher. ...
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 29, 2013
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                                I thought one of the things Jim got from Phil was his love for lee boards.  Phil used them in a lot of designs for decades before Jim built a birdwatcher.



                                ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <graeme19121984@...> wrote:

                                 " Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards)... " Gosh, I wonder if PCB considered and went all through that and rejected it for a host of reasons as unsuited to this boat? Oh, he did, and wrote it all down too.

                                 

                                "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.

                                 

                                Graeme



                                ---In michalak@yahoogroups.com, <chrisc@...> wrote:

                                I think even Jim would say he is following in Bolger's footsteps.  In many ways Jim took Bolgers ideas even further than Bolger did.  I think Jim too the idea if utilitarian design much further.   Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards) and now you have the goodness of the BirdWatcher design AND all the interior space to boot.

                                 

                                I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher.  My own offshore experience is that being outside in the elements can tire out a captain much sooner than would be ideal, and this in turn affects the quality of the decisions made and the endurance obtainable.   Two things I feel are critical to any offshore boat are the ability to self steer, and the ability of a pilot to stay out of the weather.  My own offshore boat (a catamaran) can do neither.  I also find most boats can do neither boat without substantial electrical ability and trouble prone autopilots.   To this end I think a maxi birdwatcher with a ketch rig may be the ticket.  The inside steering gives you protection from weather, and a cat ketch rig would give you the ability to balance at any point of sail.

                                 

                                Just some pondering!

                                 

                                 

                                Chris Curtis

                                 

                                 



                                ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <dannyb9@...> wrote:

                                looks to me michalak's designs are an evolution of bolger. praise the spirits of small boat design. i've seen photos of the interior of birdwatcher. that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the cabin.   michalak's normsboat  may be the state of the art in contemporary sharpies.  

                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                From: daschultz8275@...
                                Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:24:10 +0000
                                Subject: [Michalak] Re: bolger birdwatcher

                                 


                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, daniel brown <dannyb9@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > i like double ended sharpies in general but i dont see myself sailing inside behind a plexiglass window coated with salt spray.
                                >

                                ;-) I'd take that as a no.

                                One of the first was built by Jim Michalak, who has developed a group of competitive designs using the Birdwatcher style cabin. They are mostly a bit smaller than Bolger's Birdwatcher.

                                A bit of time with the search function in this group will help you find those who have sailed Bolger's and others slot top designs.

                                The general consensus is that it is not the claustrophobic experience some were expecting, and that air washing down off the sail keeps the cabin fresh in warm weather. Really sounds pretty nice.

                                Don


                              • James Dunn
                                I am a proud owner of an AF3 but it s a bit small for a family of 4, fine for now, the twins are 3 bu, I ll wanna get something bigger. I have always lusted
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 29, 2013
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                                  I am a proud owner of an AF3 but it's a bit small for a family of 4, fine for now, the twins are 3 bu, I'll wanna get something bigger. I have always lusted after a Bolger Birdwatcher but never liked that intrusive centerboard. A FB acquaintance of mine in Canada built one and tried the leeboards, I believe he was having difficulty getting the right balance so he went back to the centerboard. He swears he's going to go back to the leeboards concept though. He also has a nice cat ketch rig which I would prefer, he swears by it. If your considering coastal cruising you could always consider a fixed keel, maybe a bulb type to facilitate trailering. I would opt for leeboards but I'd put a brace across the top of the cabin in line with the board mounts, it would be a drag to duck under but freeing up the extra cabin space would be worth it, you could make it swing away while sailing in light winds, motoring (if equipped), or at anchor. Jim is definitely a fan/ follower of Bolger as many of his designs are based on many of his ideas, Jim takes Bolgers ideas and makes them more pragmatic and easier to build albeit not quite as elegant. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Jim's designs and I love my AF3 but, that Bolger BW is beckoning me and Jim's whispering in my ear saying, lee boards, lee boards, cat ketch.

                                  Happy Thanksgiving everybody and happy boat building.

                                  Jimmy D



                                  Sent from my iPhone
                                • John Kohnen
                                  I m not going by the specs, I was there sitting in the cabin/cockpit and I really noticed the centerboard trunk. ;o) The intrusion of the centerboard is
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 29, 2013
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                                    I'm not going by the specs, I was there sitting in the cabin/cockpit and I
                                    really noticed the centerboard trunk. ;o) The intrusion of the centerboard
                                    is mitigated slightly by the out-of-the way storage between the trunk and
                                    the starboard side; all the space isn't "wasted," it's just not usable for
                                    humans. The Birdwatchers aren't very big boats for their length, and are
                                    light for their length and sail area. That's why they perform so well, but
                                    it has an effect on the accommodations.

                                    On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 00:50:12 -0800, graeme> wrote:

                                    > "that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the
                                    > cabin."
                                    > No it don't. Have another look at the specs, centres, displacement, wl,
                                    > etc, and especially think about where the cob is (well aft) and where
                                    > the people(big) are meant to sit, and think about why it is pointy
                                    > sterned, and what Bolger wrote over and over about the whys and
                                    > wherefores of a pointy sterned box hull. And think about how it's put
                                    > together with so little waste of material or time. BW is not a big boat,
                                    > not meant to carry much. She is not a yacht, she is a light weight, fast
                                    > (lwl, L/B, plus shoal), extreme shoal draft yet quite seaworthy camp
                                    > cruiser.
                                    > ...

                                    --
                                    John (jkohnen@...)
                                    What is more pleasant than a friendly little yacht, a long stretch of
                                    smooth water, a gentle breeze, the stars? (Billy Atkin)
                                  • John Kohnen
                                    I ve been in Bob Larkin s Wave Watcher, and sailed in company with her many times. Bob has done some cruising in the San Juans and south Salish Sea, and met
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 29, 2013
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                                      I've been in Bob Larkin's Wave Watcher, and sailed in company with her
                                      many times. Bob has done some cruising in the San Juans and south Salish
                                      Sea, and met with some conditions that would have been exciting in a small
                                      open boat, but nothing like what the open sea can throw at a boat.
                                      Birdwatcher 2 is a darn good boat, but it's a lightly built boat for
                                      sheltered and semi-sheltered (that's what I'd call most of the Salish Sea)
                                      waters, with careful attention to the weather. Fortunately that capability
                                      is enough to cruise lots and lots of beautiful places. :o) And you can
                                      travel between them at 70 mph. <g>

                                      On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 00:51:16 -0800, graeme wrote:

                                      > ...
                                      > "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore
                                      > birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.

                                      --
                                      John (jkohnen@...)
                                      His heart was bound in oak and triple brass who first committed a fragile
                                      bark to the raging sea... (Horace)
                                    • graeme19121984
                                      Bolger reckoned boats less fit for the purpose than BW2 had crossed the Atlantic. The limit on BW2 was stores capacity. Bolger reckoned ultra light astronaut
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 30, 2013
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                                        Bolger reckoned boats less fit for the purpose than BW2 had crossed the Atlantic. The limit on BW2 was stores capacity. Bolger reckoned ultra light astronaut type rations might be needed for such a passage.  



                                        ---In michalak@yahoogroups.com, <jhkohnen@...> wrote:

                                        I've been in Bob Larkin's Wave Watcher, and sailed in company with her
                                        many times. Bob has done some cruising in the San Juans and south Salish
                                        Sea, and met with some conditions that would have been exciting in a small
                                        open boat, but nothing like what the open sea can throw at a boat.
                                        Birdwatcher 2 is a darn good boat, but it's a lightly built boat for
                                        sheltered and semi-sheltered (that's what I'd call most of the Salish Sea)
                                        waters, with careful attention to the weather. Fortunately that capability
                                        is enough to cruise lots and lots of beautiful places. :o) And you can
                                        travel between them at 70 mph. <g>

                                        On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 00:51:16 -0800, graeme wrote:

                                        > ...
                                        > "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore
                                        > birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.

                                        --
                                        John (jkohnen@...)
                                        His heart was bound in oak and triple brass who first committed a fragile
                                        bark to the raging sea... (Horace)
                                      • graeme19121984
                                        There s got to be stowage space for stuff somewhere on a boat. The outside of the centreboard case is a major space for that purpose on the Birdwatchers, for,
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Nov 30, 2013
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                                          There's got to be stowage space for stuff somewhere on a boat. The outside of the centreboard case is a major space for that purpose on the Birdwatchers, for, as Bolger said, bulky things like bedding. Those things don't weigh all that much for their volume  It's not where the humans (who are meant  to contribute as ballast), especially adults, are meant to be for proper trim. Their mass is meant to be placed and centred aft, about where the cob is. Bolger explained numerous times the cascading chain from stem to stern of deleterious effects on performance set up when the bow of a hard chined boat is immersed. 


                                          A pointy sterned boat can be trimmed down by the stern a good deal without significant performance penalty. Bolger noted on the plans how the boat should be trimmed to lift the bow.  I note that the pics of Bob Larkin's Wave Watcher mostly show her trimmed down by the bow.



                                          ---In michalak@yahoogroups.com, <jhkohnen@...> wrote:

                                          I'm not going by the specs, I was there sitting in the cabin/cockpit and I
                                          really noticed the centerboard trunk. ;o) The intrusion of the centerboard
                                          is mitigated slightly by the out-of-the way storage between the trunk and
                                          the starboard side; all the space isn't "wasted," it's just not usable for
                                          humans. The Birdwatchers aren't very big boats for their length, and are
                                          light for their length and sail area. That's why they perform so well, but
                                          it has an effect on the accommodations.

                                          On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 00:50:12 -0800, graeme> wrote:

                                          > "that big centerboard case takes up a lot of prime real estate in the
                                          > cabin."
                                          > No it don't. Have another look at the specs, centres, displacement, wl,
                                          > etc, and especially think about where the cob is (well aft) and where
                                          > the people(big) are meant to sit, and think about why it is pointy
                                          > sterned, and what Bolger wrote over and over about the whys and
                                          > wherefores of a pointy sterned box hull. And think about how it's put
                                          > together with so little waste of material or time. BW is not a big boat,
                                          > not meant to carry much. She is not a yacht, she is a light weight, fast
                                          > (lwl, L/B, plus shoal), extreme shoal draft yet quite seaworthy camp
                                          > cruiser.
                                          > ...

                                          --
                                          John (jkohnen@...)
                                          What is more pleasant than a friendly little yacht, a long stretch of
                                          smooth water, a gentle breeze, the stars? (Billy Atkin)
                                        • daschultz2000
                                          ... Sometimes such choices were made by a client that commissioned the design. I think that his writing sometimes was his marketing for another commission.
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Nov 30, 2013
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                                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > " Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards)... "

                                            ...I wonder if PCB considered and went all through that and rejected it for a host of reasons as unsuited to this boat? Oh, he did, and wrote it all down too.
                                            >
                                            > "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.
                                            >

                                            Sometimes such choices were made by a client that commissioned the design. I think that his writing sometimes was his marketing for another commission.

                                            Although not an offshore cruiser, Whalewatcher was a step up in size.
                                          • graeme19121984
                                            Nope, not in this case. IIRC he first explained the reasons for a centreboard and not leeboards for the BW hull in replying to a letter received via SBJ s
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Nov 30, 2013
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                                              Nope, not in this case. IIRC he first explained the reasons for a centreboard and not leeboards for the BW hull in replying to a letter received via SBJ's Bolger's Corner. People were always asking him if they could hang  leeboards off something or another...



                                              ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@...> wrote:

                                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > " Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards)... "

                                              ...I wonder if PCB considered and went all through that and rejected it for a host of reasons as unsuited to this boat? Oh, he did, and wrote it all down too.
                                              >
                                              > "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.
                                              >

                                              Sometimes such choices were made by a client that commissioned the design. I think that his writing sometimes was his marketing for another commission.

                                              Although not an offshore cruiser, Whalewatcher was a step up in size.
                                            • daniel brown
                                              can you detail bolger s objections to leeboards for birdwatcher? bolger s dovekie is somewhat similar and has leeboards. thanks : ) dan in port royal To:
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Nov 30, 2013
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                                                 can you detail bolger's objections to leeboards for birdwatcher? bolger's dovekie is somewhat similar and has leeboards. thanks : )
                                                dan in port royal
                                                 

                                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: graeme19121984@...
                                                Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 08:23:06 -0800
                                                Subject: [Michalak] RE: Re: bolger birdwatcher

                                                 

                                                Nope, not in this case. IIRC he first explained the reasons for a centreboard and not leeboards for the BW hull in replying to a letter received via SBJ's Bolger's Corner. People were always asking him if they could hang  leeboards off something or another...



                                                ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@...> wrote:

                                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > " Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards)... "

                                                ...I wonder if PCB considered and went all through that and rejected it for a host of reasons as unsuited to this boat? Oh, he did, and wrote it all down too.
                                                >
                                                > "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.
                                                >

                                                Sometimes such choices were made by a client that commissioned the design. I think that his writing sometimes was his marketing for another commission.

                                                Although not an offshore cruiser, Whalewatcher was a step up in size.

                                              • graeme19121984
                                                Dovekie also had (and has) some of the leeboard issues that would have been inherent (plus some other) but were avoided in BW. Searching in the Bolger yahoo
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Nov 30, 2013
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                                                  Dovekie also had (and has) some of the leeboard issues that would have been inherent (plus some other) but were avoided  in BW.


                                                  Searching in the Bolger yahoo group will return much on BW and leeboards. Bolger detailed just about everything in writing over the years - nobody says it better.


                                                  two things quickly of some importance in considering leeboards for the BW are hull shape (flow lines and preventing restrictions) window sill height and occlusion; rig coe, type and shape to compliment optimal leeboard placement (some distance aft of midships - the lateral asymmetry of max beam some 65 odd percent aft, so  BW with leeboard might be best rigged for sailing 'backwards' but then there's entrance angles etc...); having sufficient chord for a relaxed low tendency to stall (conflicts with windows again, widow sill height; and there's raised clearance above water, oars placement.... ....). There is nothing ever simple about any 'simple' Bolger boat.




                                                  ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <dannyb9@...> wrote:


                                                   can you detail bolger's objections to leeboards for birdwatcher? bolger's dovekie is somewhat similar and has leeboards. thanks : )
                                                  dan in port royal
                                                   

                                                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                                  From: graeme19121984@...
                                                  Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 08:23:06 -0800
                                                  Subject: [Michalak] RE: Re: bolger birdwatcher

                                                   

                                                  Nope, not in this case. IIRC he first explained the reasons for a centreboard and not leeboards for the BW hull in replying to a letter received via SBJ's Bolger's Corner. People were always asking him if they could hang  leeboards off something or another...



                                                  ---In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@...> wrote:

                                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > " Now take that Bolger Birdwatcher and remove the obnoxious CB trunk and add Jim's leeboards (technically off centerboards)... "

                                                  ...I wonder if PCB considered and went all through that and rejected it for a host of reasons as unsuited to this boat? Oh, he did, and wrote it all down too.
                                                  >
                                                  > "I have always been enamored with the idea of an offshore birdwatcher..." That'd be the Birdwatcher II then.
                                                  >

                                                  Sometimes such choices were made by a client that commissioned the design. I think that his writing sometimes was his marketing for another commission.

                                                  Although not an offshore cruiser, Whalewatcher was a step up in size.

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