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Re: [Michalak] Jewelbox ... One More Time.

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  • Dennis Mingear
    The Caroline is a possibilty, and someone has built and sailed one here. I can't remember the boats name or builder, but I remember it being a nice build.
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
      The Caroline is a possibilty, and someone has built and sailed one here. I can't remember the boats name or builder, but I remember it being a nice build. Maybe I need to look at Caroline a little more closely.

      Thanks Marka,

      Dennis

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rob Kellock
      Hi Dennis, I assume you are going to be sailing solo? If that s the case you want to go as small as you can get away with. Small has lots of advantages as Nels
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
        Hi Dennis,

        I assume you are going to be sailing solo? If that's the case you want to go as small as you can get away with. Small has lots of advantages as Nels has already pointed out, not least of which is the possibility of inside storage if the boat is less than 15ft long (the mast, trailer tongue and rudder means the overall length of a 15ft boat is more like 18.5ft - 19.0ft which is the maximum length of most car shed's).

        The only drawback for short boats is their hull speed, but over time I've worked out that whenever that problem occurs, I end up using the OB anyway, so it's not an issue either.

        One things for sure, the shorter your boat, the more often you will use it. Pity the Paradox won't work for you. I'm starting to think a Paradox might be what I need for my next boat.


        Cheers,

        Rob.

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Caroline is a possibilty, and someone has built and sailed one here. I can't remember the boats name or builder, but I remember it being a nice build. Maybe I need to look at Caroline a little more closely.
        >
        > Thanks Marka,
        >
        > Dennis
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Chris Curtis
        Bolgeresq sharpie hulls can be made faster, and non pounding by adding a Susan Altenberg(sp?) cut water. All of Jim s pram bowed sharpies could be modified
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
          Bolgeresq sharpie hulls can be made faster, and non pounding by adding a Susan Altenberg(sp?) cut water. All of Jim's pram bowed sharpies could be modified this way and quite easily. Google pictures of her AS34 to get an idea.

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...<mailto:nelsarv@...>> wrote:



          Dennis,

          Quite a few observations made worthy of comment, but I will start at the
          bottom two. One of the first mission requirements is to decide on a
          size for sure. This includes storage space for the boat when not in
          use, cost of a trailer, tow vehicle capability and/or slip rentals.
          Every couple hundred pounds in weight or couple feet in length can
          really change the budget requirements for something you may only use a
          few times a year. Chris Curtis has pointed that out very strongly, and
          these are costs bound to go up even more probably sooner than later.

          The second item suggesting re-design of the Jewelbox hull, I doubt
          anything can be done to improve it's abilities, but lots of things that
          could detract from them. First, it relies on the hard chine shape for
          initial stability, ability to self-right without ballast, even when the
          windows are partially submerged and it's surprising speed reaching when
          heeled and presenting a V entry to the water surface. It has the perfect
          hull shape for a sharpie according to both Bolger and Jim, but also the
          vice of pounding like a drum when sailed upright or motored or even
          anchored. I suggested a few mods, like maybe having the OB on
          center-line to allow a heavier motor, Warped V entry in the bow section
          to lessen pounding a bit and maybe an alternate sail plan with mizzen.
          But I would not touch the hull form itself. Too bad the plan write-up
          doesn't show the plan view of the hull (When viewed from above).

          Once one goes to multi-chine the whole dynamic changes. You lop off the
          outer chine sections and you generally require some sort of extra
          ballast to keep it upright, and you loose that long chine-line that adds
          to speed when reaching heeled over. But if IMB sort of fits into the
          mission but a bit too small then there is Scram Pram and Blobster both
          using water ballast and on up to Caroline and Caprice.

          One other worth considering for a big person is a larger Philsboat.

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=JM-Philsboat
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=JM-Philsboat\
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=JM-Philsboat>>

          I really love Mike Mulcahy's upsizing and the junk rig - which I believe
          he improved on as well since this was written.

          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/philsboat/
          <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/philsboat/>

          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/
          <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/>

          Nels
          >
          > So here I go!, Would it be worth the effort required to redesign the
          hull of the Jewelbox to be more like the IMB, which might make the
          Jewelbox more suitable for the conditions that the boat would most often
          cruise in?
          >
          > All thoughts and comments are welcome, please. I am amazed, with all
          of the plan sets available, that it is so hard to find just one boat
          that meets both the mission and crew requirements.
          >
          > Thanks all,
          >
          > Dennis
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dennis Mingear
          I'll take a look Chris, thanks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
            I'll take a look Chris, thanks.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dennis Mingear
            Yep all true Rob, going small provides many benefits, and yes I will be solo some of the time, probably true for many of us. The Jewelbox can be setup by one
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
              Yep all true Rob, going small provides many benefits, and yes I will be solo some of the time, probably true for many of us. The Jewelbox can be setup by one person without to much difficulty, so going alone sometimes will be ok, and at times preferable.

              I like the Paradox too, I've spent many hours studying my plan set, there are so many good ideas on those pages, not to mention a few good dreams too.

              What got me started down the Jewelbox road was the Arcebus and Trilobyte boats, I'm still looking at the Trilobyte as a possible project. The open cabin arrangement is what I'm looking for, as well as easy handling characteristics. I don't need a hotrod, although a fast, shunting proa woud be fun, if I was 30 again.

              Thanks for the thoughts Rob,

              Dennis



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • prairiedog2332
              Googled Bolger As 34 and found nothing. Is that similar to the anti-kerphumping bow as referred to by Bolger s widow Susanne s German background? If so,
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                Googled Bolger As 34 and found nothing. Is that similar to the
                "anti-kerphumping" bow as referred to by Bolger's widow Susanne's
                German background? If so, info can be found here in a Birdwatcher2
                build.


                http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm
                <http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm>


                Basically a flattened football shape added to the bow and in several
                other plan upgrades including Micro. But I suspect the AS34 is more
                complicated than that? I visited Peter Lenihan during his build of
                Windermere and it has a great cut-water design. To me a warped V like on
                Twister might be easier to do - not as sophisticated - but for a pram
                bow shape like Jewelbox might suffice.


                One thing I like about the extended Philsboat was the added space in the
                bow compared to Caroline, plus the narrower bilge panels under the seats
                to create more space for ballast. Plus the added flare to the topsides
                that offers more comfort for his back as Mike mentions.


                Could even more flare be added? Hapscut has the most flare Jim has ever
                added and was designed after Jim observed a SF Pelican during a Texas
                200 event and how well it performed. Noteworthy to me is this is by far
                the longest write-up Jim has ever written about any design, so suspect
                he really likes it!

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=JM-Hapscut
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=JM-Hapscut>


                I would love to see a Hapscut with the seating arrangement in the plans
                and the sun protection suggested. Sitting face to face with the crew and
                maybe a table between drifting down my river. Plus John writes about
                what a great canal cruiser it is under power with small OB. Looking at
                the photos I think it could work with a Tohatsu 8 4-stroke if the rudder
                was off-set and the OB on the center-line. Would it work on SF Bay? I
                think it would do well as is. Would it pound at times - probably. Part
                of the reason plywood hulls drum is due to being made from plywood but
                once one realizes the noise is not a sign of it's weakness, just turn up
                the music or get used to it.


                Now John hints about a camper top for the slot. How about some side
                curtains for the sunshade over the cockpit? Rene Vidmer used only
                fine-mesh bug screening on his AF4B bimini side curtains and it let in
                little in the way of rain. He added some heat under it and a small sump
                to get rid of occasional water in the cockpit. Traveled over 8,000 miles
                in it at last count. Heat you say? A small heater running under his
                folding deck chair and the option of wearing a poncho.

                Have to love how folks utilize a simple basic design. Jim's offer about
                the most options for the least investment.

                Nels





                Nels

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Chris Curtis wrote:
                >
                > Bolgeresq sharpie hulls can be made faster, and non pounding by adding
                a Susan Altenberg(sp?) cut water. All of Jim's pram bowed sharpies
                could be modified this way and quite easily. Google pictures of her
                AS34 to get an idea.
                >
                > Sent from my iPhone
                >
                > On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:03 PM, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • prairiedog2332
                Arcebus is a great design! One thing I should add regarding the extended Philsboat as built by Mike Mulcahy is he added a self-draining cockpit unlike the
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                  Arcebus is a great design! One thing I should add regarding the
                  extended Philsboat as built by Mike Mulcahy is he added a self-draining
                  cockpit unlike the regular plans. This allows using the OB and yuloh a
                  lot easier than in the original plans. But calls for a somewhat more
                  complicated rudder set-up when sailing under cover. A person could use
                  an extended throttle control for the OB and motor while under cover as
                  well. Lock down the OB and have a PVC pipe extension for the twist
                  throttle control and steer from under cover using the tiller. I have one
                  on my OB - friction fit with some heat to enlarge the pipe a bit so it
                  stays in place.

                  http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/philsboat/
                  <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/philsboat/>


                  You can also lock down the tiller if you add a mizzen - easy to do with
                  a length of high friction line looped around it - and it will self-steer
                  while you walk anywhere in the slot or sit in the cockpit. Rene often
                  stood in the bow with the motor locked down and steered by shifting his
                  weight when crossing a big section of open water in his AF4B. Advantage
                  of having a shallow draft light boat.

                  Nels



                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mingear wrote:
                  >
                  > Yep all true Rob, going small provides many benefits, and yes I will
                  be solo some of the time, probably true for many of us. The Jewelbox can
                  be setup by one person without to much difficulty, so going alone
                  sometimes will be ok, and at times preferable.
                  >
                  > I like the Paradox too, I've spent many hours studying my plan set,
                  there are so many good ideas on those pages, not to mention a few good
                  dreams too.
                  >
                  > What got me started down the Jewelbox road was the Arcebus and
                  Trilobyte boats, I'm still looking at the Trilobyte as a possible
                  project. The open cabin arrangement is what I'm looking for, as well as
                  easy handling characteristics. I don't need a hotrod, although a fast,
                  shunting proa woud be fun, if I was 30 again.
                  >
                  > Thanks for the thoughts Rob,
                  >
                  > Dennis




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mark Albanese
                  One aspect in perceptions about boat size is how well setup the tow rig. My own was nicely arranged with the boat tilted just slightly forward for a better
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                    One aspect in perceptions about boat size is how well setup the tow rig.

                    My own was nicely arranged with the boat tilted just slightly forward for a better angle to ease launching without effecting the tongue weight much and with saddles each side running most of the way front to back to be nice to the boat.

                    This'd work great I believe, towing with a pickup. I have a little Toyota Yaris, though, which can't go too far back down the ramp without getting the brakes wet.

                    Those saddles killed me. The way they swoop up along the chine aft means we often have to hop the boat over their ends to get it started up the trailer. I sawed off the back half hoping for some relief. The boat rests just as solid on three cross bunks from about midships forward, but the ends are still a little too high.

                    The obvious solution for me is to extend the tongue, though I didn't want to do that in order to keep it all compact as possible.

                    Once it's in the water the 800# boat is easy to handle, flipping ends at the dock and so on. I suppose until changing something again, my little JBjr has the heft and inconvenience of a thirty footer.

                    markA

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Dennis,
                    >
                    > I assume you are going to be sailing solo? If that's the case you want to go as small as you can get away with. Small has lots of advantages as Nels has already pointed out, not least of which is the possibility of inside storage if the boat is less than 15ft long (the mast, trailer tongue and rudder means the overall length of a 15ft boat is more like 18.5ft - 19.0ft which is the maximum length of most car shed's).
                    >
                    > The only drawback for short boats is their hull speed, but over time I've worked out that whenever that problem occurs, I end up using the OB anyway, so it's not an issue either.
                    >
                    > One things for sure, the shorter your boat, the more often you will use it. Pity the Paradox won't work for you. I'm starting to think a Paradox might be what I need for my next boat.
                    >
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    >
                    > Rob.
                  • Dennis Mingear
                    I'll give it a click Nels, I do like the looks of Philsboat. Dennis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                      I'll give it a click Nels, I do like the looks of Philsboat. Dennis

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mark Albanese
                      Not the Anti Slap Pad. This came from Bruce Hallman s wonderful Bolger isometrics page. https://www.dropbox.com/s/0g515q1sibnumqp/as-34x.jpg It s not much, but
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                        Not the Anti Slap Pad.

                        This came from Bruce Hallman's wonderful Bolger isometrics page.
                        https://www.dropbox.com/s/0g515q1sibnumqp/as-34x.jpg

                        It's not much, but the vee under the chines in front running down to the centerline can just be seen/


                        markA

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Googled Bolger As 34 and found nothing. Is that similar to the
                        > "anti-kerphumping" bow as referred to by Bolger's widow Susanne's
                        > German background? If so, info can be found here in a Birdwatcher2
                        > build.
                        >
                      • Mark Albanese
                        Jim s warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in the woods type sailor, I still don t wholly buy the heeled sharpie presents a vee to the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                          Jim's warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in the
                          woods type sailor, I still don't wholly buy the "heeled sharpie presents a
                          vee to the waves" argument.

                          Most of the time in any sailing wind Sage is happy at 15 - 20 degrees,
                          still more or less upright. On a reach 30 draws comments from the dockbox
                          committee about how amazingly fast she is, but beyond that, besides
                          tumbling into the bilge, the water starts looking pretty close to the
                          windows. I'm fine with all that but would like to keep some reserve
                          buoyancy in reserve.

                          My problem with the theory comes in tacking. I'm in these long, narrow
                          lakes with the wind coming right down one end to the other. Coming about,
                          the boat wants to come level first, before heading off on the other tack,
                          thus presenting the flattest part of the bottom to the line of waves and, a
                          lot of the time, stopping her in irons.

                          That's the moment when the Tweenlike, Petesboat bow will be most handy.

                          markA


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Chris Curtis
                          Yeah, it’s a pretty poor picture. I tried to look for some better shots, but the entire copyright thing looms large in my head. Dave Ziger has a 10ft boat
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                            Yeah, it’s a pretty poor picture. I tried to look for some better shots, but the entire copyright thing looms large in my head. Dave Ziger has a 10ft boat called butugly. It has cutwater that is old style Bolger. When Susan started to assist Phil, she updated it to look more like the bow of Caprice, family skiff, etc. What the Cutwater does is give you buoyancy down low and far forward. You get a maximum WLL (notice how the SusanB designed AS34 and 42 have reverse bows, like a modern freighter!). This bow would tend to not pound either. Not discussed ( in family circles) is the fact that you can have a stern cutwater too which has its own advantages. Anyway, im no expert just yarning!





                            From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Albanese
                            Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:06 PM
                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Jewelbox ... One More Time.



                            Not the Anti Slap Pad.

                            This came from Bruce Hallman's wonderful Bolger isometrics page.
                            https://www.dropbox.com/s/0g515q1sibnumqp/as-34x.jpg

                            It's not much, but the vee under the chines in front running down to the centerline can just be seen/

                            markA

                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...<mailto:nelsarv@...>> wrote:
                            >
                            > Googled Bolger As 34 and found nothing. Is that similar to the
                            > "anti-kerphumping" bow as referred to by Bolger's widow Susanne's
                            > German background? If so, info can be found here in a Birdwatcher2
                            > build.
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • prairiedog2332
                            When heeled 15 and especially 20 degrees it does lengthen the waterline on a rockered hull like JB Jr. and a longer waterline makes for a faster boat. You can
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                              When heeled 15 and especially 20 degrees it does lengthen the waterline
                              on a rockered hull like JB Jr. and a longer waterline makes for a faster
                              boat. You can probably test that by measuring the waterline when the
                              hull is fully upright and then measure the waterline along the immersed
                              chine when it is tipped over 20 degrees. It may only be a foot or so
                              but on a very short waterline to begin with can make a difference in
                              potential hull speed. But no, it is not a perfect symmetrical Vee shape
                              but the high birdwatcher sides still give you some security margin.

                              To quote Jim; "Karl James told me his boat (JB) has righted from having
                              its windows totally submerged." Same for several other Birdwatcher
                              sailors including Bolger himself. Not sure if the JB Jr. has the same
                              "Ideal" hull form as JB where the side curvature matches the bottom
                              rocker which also helps lessen eddy effects off the immersed according
                              their "seas of peas" theory and adds to it's sailing speed.

                              As for tacking upwind in a narrow channel, none of these hulls excel,
                              due to their shallow draft and light weight with not much momentum going
                              through irons. Plus a balance lug sail is slow to pick up drive compared
                              to the higher pointing ability of a sloop with jib. That is why a tiny
                              OB is often referred to as an "iron jib".

                              Was just reading in Bolger's book "100 Small Boat Rigs", his wondering
                              why some folks feel starting up the motor is considered some sort of
                              sacrilege. He feels motor sailing is a great way to go upwind under some
                              conditions as the sail stabilizes the hull and adds some drive thus
                              saving gas. Both he and Jim really think an OB is a necessity on these
                              types of sailing hulls and so often provide a proper well, rather than
                              having one trying to figure out how to add one.

                              Nels.

                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese wrote:
                              >
                              > Jim's warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in
                              the
                              > woods type sailor, I still don't wholly buy the "heeled sharpie
                              presents a
                              > vee to the waves" argument.
                              >
                              > Most of the time in any sailing wind Sage is happy at 15 - 20 degrees,
                              > still more or less upright. On a reach 30 draws comments from the
                              dockbox
                              > committee about how amazingly fast she is, but beyond that, besides
                              > tumbling into the bilge, the water starts looking pretty close to the
                              > windows. I'm fine with all that but would like to keep some reserve
                              > buoyancy in reserve.
                              >
                              > My problem with the theory comes in tacking. I'm in these long, narrow
                              > lakes with the wind coming right down one end to the other. Coming
                              about,
                              > the boat wants to come level first, before heading off on the other
                              tack,
                              > thus presenting the flattest part of the bottom to the line of waves
                              and, a
                              > lot of the time, stopping her in irons.
                              >
                              > That's the moment when the Tweenlike, Petesboat bow will be most
                              handy.
                              >
                              > markA
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mark Albanese
                              It is not a box like the wonderful B tugly; a Toto bow, but with only a single chine fairing into a flat bottom.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                                It is not a box like the wonderful B'tugly; a Toto bow, but with only
                                a single chine fairing into a flat bottom.
                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/75097333@N00/sets/961367/
                                The extreme of this is the tortured ply Diamond kayak, where the
                                narrow, long ends of a 20' boat fair back into a flat bottom that's
                                just a couple or three feet long.

                                You won't believe how much I had to massage Bruce's postage stamp to
                                show you that much. The AS34's bow looks angled back a bit too.

                                markA

                                On Aug 16, 2013, at 9:49 PM, Chris Curtis wrote:

                                > Yeah, it�s a pretty poor picture. I tried to look for some better
                                > shots, but the entire copyright thing looms large in my head. Dave
                                > Ziger has a 10ft boat called butugly. It has cutwater that is old
                                > style Bolger. When Susan started to assist Phil, she updated it to
                                > look more like the bow of Caprice, family skiff, etc. What the
                                > Cutwater does is give you buoyancy down low and far forward. You
                                > get a maximum WLL (notice how the SusanB designed AS34 and 42 have
                                > reverse bows, like a modern freighter!). This bow would tend to not
                                > pound either. Not discussed ( in family circles) is the fact that
                                > you can have a stern cutwater too which has its own advantages.
                                > Anyway, im no expert just yarning!
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of Mark Albanese
                                > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 8:06 PM
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Jewelbox ... One More Time.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Not the Anti Slap Pad.
                                >
                                > This came from Bruce Hallman's wonderful Bolger isometrics page.
                                > https://www.dropbox.com/s/0g515q1sibnumqp/as-34x.jpg
                                >
                                > It's not much, but the vee under the chines in front running down
                                > to the centerline can just be seen/
                                >
                                > markA
                                >
                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                                > "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...<mailto:nelsarv@...>> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Googled Bolger As 34 and found nothing. Is that similar to the
                                > > "anti-kerphumping" bow as referred to by Bolger's widow Susanne's
                                > > German background? If so, info can be found here in a Birdwatcher2
                                > > build.
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mark Albanese
                                This is why I loove my little electric. It can be deployed very quickly -and fools some innocent bystanders. I used Peter Vandervoort s BoatCalc to make this
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 16, 2013
                                  This is why I loove my little electric. It can be deployed very
                                  quickly -and fools some innocent bystanders.


                                  I used Peter Vandervoort's BoatCalc to make this composite
                                  illustrating flowlines for a 275# Tween at 0, 15, 20 and 30 degrees
                                  and with a profile to compare how long the bow looks in each case.
                                  It's inconclusive for me at the moment, but think I see that, while
                                  no longer perfect, coming through the wind this type bow still
                                  retains a good measure of vee shape, whatever the heel. It's
                                  certainly less abrupt than the pure flattie and may even have
                                  something of a forward skeg effect which could help against being so
                                  bumped about.
                                  https://www.dropbox.com/s/w3k50vta3nkx2nw/tweenbow.gif

                                  markA

                                  On Aug 16, 2013, at 11:11 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Was just reading in Bolger's book "100 Small Boat Rigs", his wondering
                                  > why some folks feel starting up the motor is considered some sort of
                                  > sacrilege. He feels motor sailing is a great way to go upwind under
                                  > some
                                  > conditions as the sail stabilizes the hull and adds some drive thus
                                  > saving gas. Both he and Jim really think an OB is a necessity on these
                                  > types of sailing hulls and so often provide a proper well, rather than
                                  > having one trying to figure out how to add one.
                                  >
                                  > Nels.
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • john colley
                                  Rob,I totally agree with you about small boats being used more.The smaller it is,the easier it i to launch and retrieve,It will get used much more than one
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 17, 2013
                                    Rob,I totally agree with you about small boats being used more.The smaller it is,the easier it i to launch and retrieve,It will get used much more than one twice its size.How many keelers are rotting at their moorings ?Too big,can't be readily moved,or accessed.


                                     
                                    "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                    -Sigurd Olson


                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Rob Kellock <creditscorenz@...>
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, 17 August 2013 9:39 AM
                                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Jewelbox ... One More Time.



                                     
                                    Hi Dennis,

                                    I assume you are going to be sailing solo? If that's the case you want to go as small as you can get away with. Small has lots of advantages as Nels has already pointed out, not least of which is the possibility of inside storage if the boat is less than 15ft long (the mast, trailer tongue and rudder means the overall length of a 15ft boat is more like 18.5ft - 19.0ft which is the maximum length of most car shed's).

                                    The only drawback for short boats is their hull speed, but over time I've worked out that whenever that problem occurs, I end up using the OB anyway, so it's not an issue either.

                                    One things for sure, the shorter your boat, the more often you will use it. Pity the Paradox won't work for you. I'm starting to think a Paradox might be what I need for my next boat.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Rob.

                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The Caroline is a possibilty, and someone has built and sailed one here. I can't remember the boats name or builder, but I remember it being a nice build. Maybe I need to look at Caroline a little more closely.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks Marka,
                                    >
                                    > Dennis
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • JeffreyM
                                    I ll second the experience in tacking in chop. No matter how hard I try to time the tack to put the bow in a trough at the critical moment, I still have
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 17, 2013
                                      I'll second the experience in tacking in chop. No matter how hard I try to time the tack to put the bow in a trough at the critical moment, I still have trouble getting through stays. Many's the time I end up wearing instead--and often get knocked down if turning too suddenly at the jibe. I knew about Sage's bow, but tried a different approach: adding a bolt-on pointy bow that pretty much continues the curves of sides and bottom to their conclusion. The thing was a flop: caught so much wind in the wrong place at the wrongest time when tacking. I finally decided that the big flat bottom below the transom was the main problem, rather than the bow transom itself. Now all that hard work is gathering dust in the garage. Back to wearing round when I can't complete tacks...


                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Jim's warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in the
                                      > woods type sailor, I still don't wholly buy the "heeled sharpie presents a
                                      > vee to the waves" argument.
                                      >
                                      > Most of the time in any sailing wind Sage is happy at 15 - 20 degrees,
                                      > still more or less upright. On a reach 30 draws comments from the dockbox
                                      > committee about how amazingly fast she is, but beyond that, besides
                                      > tumbling into the bilge, the water starts looking pretty close to the
                                      > windows. I'm fine with all that but would like to keep some reserve
                                      > buoyancy in reserve.
                                      >
                                      > My problem with the theory comes in tacking. I'm in these long, narrow
                                      > lakes with the wind coming right down one end to the other. Coming about,
                                      > the boat wants to come level first, before heading off on the other tack,
                                      > thus presenting the flattest part of the bottom to the line of waves and, a
                                      > lot of the time, stopping her in irons.
                                      >
                                      > That's the moment when the Tweenlike, Petesboat bow will be most handy.
                                      >
                                      > markA
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • TomH
                                      What design is that please? I don t recognize the name Sage
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 17, 2013
                                        What design is that please? I don't recognize the name "Sage"

                                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" <JMichalsbr@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'll second the experience in tacking in chop. No matter how hard I try to time the tack to put the bow in a trough at the critical moment, I still have trouble getting through stays. Many's the time I end up wearing instead--and often get knocked down if turning too suddenly at the jibe. I knew about Sage's bow, but tried a different approach: adding a bolt-on pointy bow that pretty much continues the curves of sides and bottom to their conclusion. The thing was a flop: caught so much wind in the wrong place at the wrongest time when tacking. I finally decided that the big flat bottom below the transom was the main problem, rather than the bow transom itself. Now all that hard work is gathering dust in the garage. Back to wearing round when I can't complete tacks...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Jim's warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in the
                                        > > woods type sailor, I still don't wholly buy the "heeled sharpie presents a
                                        > > vee to the waves" argument.
                                        > >
                                        > > Most of the time in any sailing wind Sage is happy at 15 - 20 degrees,
                                        > > still more or less upright. On a reach 30 draws comments from the dockbox
                                        > > committee about how amazingly fast she is, but beyond that, besides
                                        > > tumbling into the bilge, the water starts looking pretty close to the
                                        > > windows. I'm fine with all that but would like to keep some reserve
                                        > > buoyancy in reserve.
                                        > >
                                        > > My problem with the theory comes in tacking. I'm in these long, narrow
                                        > > lakes with the wind coming right down one end to the other. Coming about,
                                        > > the boat wants to come level first, before heading off on the other tack,
                                        > > thus presenting the flattest part of the bottom to the line of waves and, a
                                        > > lot of the time, stopping her in irons.
                                        > >
                                        > > That's the moment when the Tweenlike, Petesboat bow will be most handy.
                                        > >
                                        > > markA
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Mark Albanese
                                        Jeffrey, Wearing ship is a time honoured solution. I m always excited at how much faster she suddenly goes. I ve been thinking about a bolt on, but with the
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 17, 2013
                                          Jeffrey,

                                          Wearing ship is a time honoured solution. I'm always excited at how much
                                          faster she suddenly goes.

                                          I've been thinking about a bolt on, but with the vee down low. With the
                                          present chine line, can't get 15 degrees like Twister, but maybe 10 or 12.
                                          Are there any pictures of what you did?
                                          markA
                                          On Aug 17, 2013 2:50 PM, "JeffreyM" <JMichalsbr@...> wrote:

                                          > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I'll second the experience in tacking in chop. No matter how hard I try to
                                          > time the tack to put the bow in a trough at the critical moment, I still
                                          > have trouble getting through stays. Many's the time I end up wearing
                                          > instead--and often get knocked down if turning too suddenly at the jibe. I
                                          > knew about Sage's bow, but tried a different approach: adding a bolt-on
                                          > pointy bow that pretty much continues the curves of sides and bottom to
                                          > their conclusion. The thing was a flop: caught so much wind in the wrong
                                          > place at the wrongest time when tacking. I finally decided that the big
                                          > flat bottom below the transom was the main problem, rather than the bow
                                          > transom itself. Now all that hard work is gathering dust in the garage.
                                          > Back to wearing round when I can't complete tacks...
                                          >
                                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Jim's warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in the
                                          > > woods type sailor, I still don't wholly buy the "heeled sharpie presents
                                          > a
                                          > > vee to the waves" argument.
                                          > >
                                          > > Most of the time in any sailing wind Sage is happy at 15 - 20 degrees,
                                          > > still more or less upright. On a reach 30 draws comments from the dockbox
                                          > > committee about how amazingly fast she is, but beyond that, besides
                                          > > tumbling into the bilge, the water starts looking pretty close to the
                                          > > windows. I'm fine with all that but would like to keep some reserve
                                          > > buoyancy in reserve.
                                          > >
                                          > > My problem with the theory comes in tacking. I'm in these long, narrow
                                          > > lakes with the wind coming right down one end to the other. Coming about,
                                          > > the boat wants to come level first, before heading off on the other tack,
                                          > > thus presenting the flattest part of the bottom to the line of waves
                                          > and, a
                                          > > lot of the time, stopping her in irons.
                                          > >
                                          > > That's the moment when the Tweenlike, Petesboat bow will be most handy.
                                          > >
                                          > > markA
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Mark Albanese
                                          Sorry. Jewelbox Jr. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 17, 2013
                                            Sorry. Jewelbox Jr.
                                            On Aug 17, 2013 5:01 PM, "TomH" <harp.151@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > What design is that please? I don't recognize the name "Sage"
                                            >
                                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" <JMichalsbr@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I'll second the experience in tacking in chop. No matter how hard I try
                                            > to time the tack to put the bow in a trough at the critical moment, I still
                                            > have trouble getting through stays. Many's the time I end up wearing
                                            > instead--and often get knocked down if turning too suddenly at the jibe. I
                                            > knew about Sage's bow, but tried a different approach: adding a bolt-on
                                            > pointy bow that pretty much continues the curves of sides and bottom to
                                            > their conclusion. The thing was a flop: caught so much wind in the wrong
                                            > place at the wrongest time when tacking. I finally decided that the big
                                            > flat bottom below the transom was the main problem, rather than the bow
                                            > transom itself. Now all that hard work is gathering dust in the garage.
                                            > Back to wearing round when I can't complete tacks...
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Jim's warped vee entry is worth considering. Tho admittedly a babe in
                                            > the
                                            > > > woods type sailor, I still don't wholly buy the "heeled sharpie
                                            > presents a
                                            > > > vee to the waves" argument.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Most of the time in any sailing wind Sage is happy at 15 - 20 degrees,
                                            > > > still more or less upright. On a reach 30 draws comments from the
                                            > dockbox
                                            > > > committee about how amazingly fast she is, but beyond that, besides
                                            > > > tumbling into the bilge, the water starts looking pretty close to the
                                            > > > windows. I'm fine with all that but would like to keep some reserve
                                            > > > buoyancy in reserve.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > My problem with the theory comes in tacking. I'm in these long, narrow
                                            > > > lakes with the wind coming right down one end to the other. Coming
                                            > about,
                                            > > > the boat wants to come level first, before heading off on the other
                                            > tack,
                                            > > > thus presenting the flattest part of the bottom to the line of waves
                                            > and, a
                                            > > > lot of the time, stopping her in irons.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > That's the moment when the Tweenlike, Petesboat bow will be most handy.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > markA
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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