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Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)

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  • graeme
    ... A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I m a chemical engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics to me. First Law: You
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
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      > Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal
      > snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily
      > disappear and many have.

      A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I'm a chemical
      engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics to me.

      First Law: You can't win.
      Second Law: You can't even break even.
      Third Law: You can't get out of the game.
      These are immutable.
      - davecarnell2003, Mon Feb 15, 2010
    • prairiedog2332
      Graeme, Thanks for digging up all that information from the way-back program. Very interesting to review. Featherwind is certainly a nice looking hull and
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
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        Graeme,

        Thanks for digging up all that information from the way-back program.
        Very interesting to review. Featherwind is certainly a nice looking hull
        and seems to work well even with a lot of weight aboard. I would still
        prefer to have the Michalak leeboard over the one shown is all. Probably
        the one for the Mayfly 14 would be adaptable.

        http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm
        <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm>

        Jim mentions if you are thinking of a Mayfly 14, may as well go for the
        16 as the 14 is a bit heavy to car-top anyway, but to me a 14 will work
        a lot better if you have a pick-up as the conveyance. So that is
        something to consider.

        Nels

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme" wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > > Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal
        > > snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily
        > > disappear and many have.
        >
        > A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I'm a chemical
        > engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics
        to me.
        >
        > First Law: You can't win.
        > Second Law: You can't even break even.
        > Third Law: You can't get out of the game.
        > These are immutable.
        > - davecarnell2003, Mon Feb 15, 2010
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mike Graf
        Dave Carnell....back in the pre-internet days when were all waiting for the next Small Boat Journal(remember when it was big and square format) or
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
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          Dave Carnell....back in the pre-internet days when were
          all waiting for the next Small Boat Journal(remember when it was big
          and square format) or Messin'.....or waiting for a personal (hand
          written)response from Phil...Dave was always in the mix. Gonna miss that
          guys clear thinking advice....so now he's made the big crossing....warm
          winds and following seas Dave
          Payson.Bolger.Carnell..........hope there's some good plywood where
          they land







          -----------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > Sad news came to me below, just now.
          >
          > Vale Dave Carnell, sailer, boatbuilder, boat chemist, Michalak
          > prompter (the Carnell flange, etc.,etc.,), promoter of all those and
          > more, boat plans promoter, writer, good guy... and I'm sure those who
          > knew the man better could similarly go on "And on and on. There's no
          > end to it." ...my symapthies to them.
          > ------------------------------------------------------
          >
        • Steven
          Thank you all for the comments. One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
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            Thank you all for the comments.

            One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.

            I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.

            Steven
          • sirdarnell
            Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
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              Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you all for the comments.
              >
              > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
              >
              > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
              >
              > Steven
              >
            • Steven
              HI, Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
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                HI,

                Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                Thanks
                Steven

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                >
                > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thank you all for the comments.
                > >
                > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                > >
                > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                > >
                > > Steven
                > >
                >
              • prairiedog2332
                Steven, Yes that is correct. If you already have the seams taped and epoxied, then you pretty much have to use epoxy for glassing the bottom as well. Polyester
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
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                  Steven,

                  Yes that is correct. If you already have the seams taped and epoxied,
                  then you pretty much have to use epoxy for glassing the bottom as well.
                  Polyester will not bond well over the epoxy on the seams and you want
                  the glass to overlap them.

                  Once the bottom is glassed and after sanding but before painting attach
                  the skids with epoxy and screws driven from inside and a light fillet
                  which can be made by just smoothing the squeeze-out.

                  Not to confuse the issue, but if the hull was constructed using
                  polyester on the taped seams and to glass the bottom you could use
                  either TB or epoxy to secure the skids although epoxy would be stronger.
                  They both can be used as a glue whereas polyester is not considered as
                  strong.

                  Some builders advise securing the skids with some sort of bedding
                  compound so they can be replaced if necessary. Others advise using
                  screws and then removing them and filling the holes after everything has
                  set up. Some folks pre-drill holes and use ringed nails off-set from
                  each other and at different angles to lock the skids in place. Some use
                  epoxy and lots of weights.

                  Nels

                  "Steven" wrote: >
                  > HI,
                  >
                  > Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied.
                  I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be
                  grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't
                  work from the reading I have been doing).
                  >
                  > At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which
                  are already taped with epoxy.
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  > Steven




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • john colley
                  I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.   There is magic in
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 27, 2013
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                    I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.



                     
                    "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                    -Sigurd Olson


                    ________________________________
                    From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 12:46 AM
                    Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                     
                    HI,

                    Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                    At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                    Thanks
                    Steven

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you all for the comments.
                    > >
                    > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                    > >
                    > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                    > >
                    > > Steven
                    > >
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Andres Espino
                    Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to epoxy.  This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is happening so i guess the chemicals
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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                      Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to epoxy.  This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is happening so i guess the chemicals in epoxy are more versitile or something.

                      Andrew




                      ________________________________
                      From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:41 PM
                      Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                       
                      Thank you all for the comments.

                      One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.

                      I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.

                      Steven




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Andres Espino
                      Polyester resins and fillers do not bond very well over Epoxy.  Epoxy over polyester works. Andrew ________________________________ From: Steven
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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                        Polyester resins and fillers do not bond very well over Epoxy.  Epoxy over polyester works.

                        Andrew




                        ________________________________
                        From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:46 AM
                        Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                         
                        HI,

                        Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                        At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                        Thanks
                        Steven

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                        >
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you all for the comments.
                        > >
                        > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                        > >
                        > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                        > >
                        > > Steven
                        > >
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Andres Espino
                        The problem usually occurs when restoring older factory boats which were molded with polyester resins.  There are reasons why polyester resins work better in
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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                          The problem usually occurs when restoring older factory boats which were molded with polyester resins.  There are reasons why polyester resins work better in molds or used to.  Now-a-days if someone is building a boat iot is better to use Epoxy exclusively throughout.

                          Andrew




                          ________________________________
                          From: john colley <Helliconia54@...>
                          To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:10 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                           
                          I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.

                           
                          "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                          -Sigurd Olson

                          ________________________________
                          From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 12:46 AM
                          Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)


                           
                          HI,

                          Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                          At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                          Thanks
                          Steven

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                          >
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thank you all for the comments.
                          > >
                          > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                          > >
                          > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                          > >
                          > > Steven
                          > >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • prairiedog2332
                          From what I understand epoxy interlinks more completely at the molecular level than polyester. Polyester links in long chains but the chains themselves do not
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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                            From what I understand epoxy interlinks more completely at the molecular
                            level than polyester. Polyester links in long chains but the chains
                            themselves do not interlink like epoxy does so definitely epoxy will
                            give a stronger bond no matter what it is applied to.


                            The point that Payson makes in his build book, is that polyester bonded
                            well enough in his destruction tests that the outer wood plywood layer
                            gave way while the poly/glass connection remained intact. Obviously
                            because plywood is not linked together at the molecular level as
                            strongly as the resins are. The plywood did not separate at the plywood
                            glue line but just shredded off in splinters next to the polyester
                            interface.


                            My point has been when epoxy costs over 3 times as much as polyester,
                            then it might be strong enough for me. As mentioned, poly is $32/gal
                            epoxy $101 to $158/gal where I am. But I will still use epoxy where it's
                            gluing strength is required, but not for glassing or filleting.


                            The other issue often mentioned is that polyester is not as waterproof
                            as epoxy. I guess it to be more waterproof than the plywood and just as
                            waterproof as most exterior paints I know of. So in a boat mostly dry
                            stored and not left on the water all season it should last awhile. As
                            mentioned Payson had some boats over 20 years old and so does Jim. I
                            have one over 10 years old and a previous one as well and the joints
                            were solid but the water got in under the plywood where there was no
                            glass.


                            But if a builder feels the extra cost in using epoxy instead is felt
                            warranted then that is the best choice no doubt.

                            Nels


                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino wrote:
                            >
                            > Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to
                            epoxy. This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is
                            happening so i guess the chemicals in epoxy are more versitile or
                            something.
                            >
                            > Andrew
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Steven sdantonio93@...
                            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:41 PM
                            > Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re:
                            Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Â
                            > Thank you all for the comments.
                            >
                            > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume
                            I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could
                            use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only
                            epoxy to put them on.
                            >
                            > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a
                            nightmare.
                            >
                            > Steven
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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