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Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.

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  • Steven
    Hi Nels, Thank you for the comments. One reason for the featherwind is the wide beam which I like for stability. Does anyone know how much lee heml she
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
      Hi Nels,

      Thank you for the comments. One reason for the featherwind is the wide beam which I like for stability. Does anyone know how much lee heml she typically carries, can it be cured by raking the sail or moving the mast step and partner back a few inches? Or is the loose footed jib the way to go? I looked at the surf and it's beam is less then the summerbreeze I'm currently building (and I really like the tombstone transon rather than being pointy of both ends which I think adds to the stability).

      Maybe I'll even get ambitious and run the featherwind through a hull design program and see if it suggests a better place for the main sail. Or I could always take your advice and make something else. You've been at this a lot longer than I have.

      I wonce wrote Bolger and asked about widening out the windspring (my original first choice) and putting a transome on it, and he suggested rather strongly to make a different boat like the featherwind.

      I have the plans and book for the Mayfly 14, so this is an option also.

      Thanks again,
      Steven

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
      >
      > Steven,
      >
      > Since it is meant to be a "practice" boat I might just glass the bottom
      > to get some practice glassing and easy to do on the inverted hull. And
      > also if stored inverted and in the shade may last quite well without
      > checking a lot. The paint you mention should work well. A lot of water
      > based paints contain polyester as a binder.
      >
      > Not meaning to be overly negative but re-sale value of home-built boats
      > is pretty low, lucky to even cover the cost of materials. Also
      > Featherwind was not a favorite design of Phil Bolger. He wrote:
      >
      > "Featherwind carries a lee helm. Use a loose-footed jib with two sheets,
      > tacked down to where the club pivots on the plans. Or, better still,
      > build a Surf instead; everybody likes those."
      >
      > http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm
      > <http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm>
      >
      > I have Surf plan but I still think though, a boat like that would even
      > be better with Jim's leeboard and rudder design and enough space on the
      > transom for a little OB or trolling motor. So that would bring up the
      > Mayfly series 12-14-16' versions.
      >
      > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm
      > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm>
      >
      >
      > But you might also want to try a taped seam design and a really good
      > choice in my view is Woobo. The cost of these plans are a steal!
      >
      >
      > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/woobo/index.htm
      > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/woobo/index.htm>
      >
      > You have to keep in mind Jim's boats are heavier with the water-tight
      > decks and hatches, but are also safer and easier to re-right and bail
      > out with these chambers at each end. Plus providing secure dry storage.
      >
      > Nels
      >
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Nels,
      > >
      > > Thank you for the two comments, I will definitely consider glassing
      > the boat, at least the outside. I'm thinking of this boat as a test
      > case, almost a discarcable boat just to get my feet wet in the building
      > process. The ultimate boats I want are the Bolger featherwind (16ftX5ft
      > sailing dinghy) and the Bolger Martha Jane (23'6" x 6ft coastal sailer).
      > But I figured I would start smaller and work my way up as I love
      > woodworking and this seems to be a pretty good path to take with my
      > personal boats. Of course, applying the same rational my house was
      > supposed to be a 10 year starter house with the idea of moving up to a
      > bigger one, and 25 years later I'm still here.
      > >
      > > Glassing would of course make and sale value much higher than if I
      > tried to sell it with all kinds of checks. The alternative it to treat
      > the checks with the polyesther glass gel you mentioned as they occure.
      > I'm assuming the checks would be entirely cosmetic and not effect the
      > sailability or safety.
      > >
      > > I will have to think on this. Luckly I'm at a good point to stop and
      > think.
      > >
      > > How is the adheasion of latex on top of polyesther? any experience
      > with this? I am trying to avoid adding colorants directly to the
      > polyesther (something I do routinely with nitrocellulouse laquer).
      > >
      > > Thanks
      > > Steven
      > >
      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > FYI You can purchase an additive that converts laminating resin to
      > > > finishing resin. Called "Air Dry Additive" at this link.
      > > >
      > > > http://www.fibertek.ca/resin.htm
      > > >
      > > > Dynamite suggests "about a tablespoon of additive to a pint of
      > resin.".
      > > > And as mentioned I strongly recommenced his build book if looking at
      > > > this alternative. With epoxy over 3 times the cost of polyester it
      > is
      > > > what I can afford but suggest doing some testing if in doubt. It is
      > more
      > > > about how careful and knowledgeable you are about applying a product
      > > > than just the cost of the product, whether it be resins, plywood or
      > > > paints. This man has done his homework as have others and share
      > their
      > > > experience quite freely.
      > > >
      > > > Nels
      > > >
      > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote: >
      > > > > Polyester finishing resin is used for the final application of
      > resin.
      > > > I.e. the finish layer. So if your cloth is thick enough that you
      > are
      > > > going to use more than one application of rosin to fill the weave
      > use
      > > > regular rosin except for the last application. Finishing rosin
      > contains
      > > > wax that helps the resin cure hard.
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • prairiedog2332
      Seemed Featherwind morphed into Dave Carnell s $200 Sailboat which he converted to using a Sunfish rig?
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
        Seemed Featherwind morphed into Dave Carnell's $200 Sailboat which he
        converted to using a Sunfish rig?

        http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/featherwind/
        <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/featherwind/>

        Then David Beebe, who designed Summer Breeze tried the 113 sq. ft.
        lugsail from Windsprint? Not sure as a lot of the links are dead ends
        now. Those might be my choices over the original sail plan as they
        relatively easy to locate for best balance in conjunction with a
        leeboard. And Polysail Int. has made a lot of these sails.

        http://www.simplicityboats.com/featherwind.html
        <http://www.simplicityboats.com/featherwind.html>


        Then along came Nutmeg! To quote from a post, "I bought Nutmeg sailboat
        plans. This boat is a simplifyed version of Bolger's Featherwind that is
        15.5' x 4.5'."


        Thing is a lot of the plans offered shows how-to builds, with little
        about the performance of the finished product. So you have to do some
        digging to find anything you can really trust. A lot is exaggerated as
        well. So I would tend to stick with designs I am pretty sure have been
        honestly proven. And that includes the ones I have already mentioned.

        Nels

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote:
        >
        > Hi Nels,
        >
        > Thank you for the comments. One reason for the featherwind is the
        wide beam which I like for stability. Does anyone know how much lee
        heml she typically carries, can it be cured by raking the sail or moving
        the mast step and partner back a few inches? Or is the loose footed jib
        the way to go? I looked at the surf and it's beam is less then the
        summerbreeze I'm currently building (and I really like the tombstone
        transon rather than being pointy of both ends which I think adds to the
        stability).
        >
        > Maybe I'll even get ambitious and run the featherwind through a hull
        design program and see if it suggests a better place for the main sail.
        Or I could always take your advice and make something else. You've been
        at this a lot longer than I have.
        >
        > I wonce wrote Bolger and asked about widening out the windspring (my
        original first choice) and putting a transome on it, and he suggested
        rather strongly to make a different boat like the featherwind.
        >
        > I have the plans and book for the Mayfly 14, so this is an option
        also.
        >
        > Thanks again,
        > Steven




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • graeme
        ... The cure is actually easier than first building and fitting the balanced club boom and the unboomed jib sail itself has less to make and fit! Nels answered
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@...> wrote:
          > One reason for the featherwind is the wide beam which I like for
          > stability. Does anyone know how much lee heml she typically
          > carries, can it be cured by raking the sail or moving the mast step
          > and partner back a few inches? Or is the loose footed jib the
          > way to go?


          The cure is actually easier than first building and fitting the balanced club boom and the unboomed jib sail itself has less to make and fit! Nels answered this one, or rather Bolger did when 10 years after "Featherwind" featured in _Small Boats_ he noted the issue and the simple fix in that line quoted from the preface to _Bolger Boats_:

          "Featherwind carries a lee helm. Use a loose-footed jib with two
          sheets, tacked down to where the club pivots on the plans."

          So don't make a balanced club boom for the jib. Rule that one out.

          Approximately double the length of jib sheet rope required and fix the middle of it to the jib clew and run each part aft either side of the boat through a deadeye or turning block or around a cleat or a pin positioned to give a good sheeting angle - about 15 degrees might do it but that can be played with to get the optimum when setting the boat up.

          So just make a jib sail in the usual way then. Don't make it with both pivot and luff roping, just keep an edge wire or rope in the sail luff by whichever usual manner.

          Rig the jib with the tack tensioned and fastened down by the luff rope to the cleat where the original as designed but now discarded pivot rope was made off. That will move the tack, luff, and the jib centre of effort (the whole jib) a little aft, but apparently far enough aft to eliminate any lee helm. The clew of the jib will now be situated a little aft of the mast when beating or close reaching (which is why it's boom is done away with). Problem gone. Easier to make, faster and closer winded for just a tad more handling of jib sheets involved when sailing than the original self-tending jib.

          Or for an even simpler option with reasonable performance grab a cheap second hand Sunfish rig or knock a similar lateen up out of some tarp and a few sticks, or if local winds are light sometimes make it larger and easy to reef...

          ------------------------------------------------------

          Sad news came to me below, just now.

          Vale Dave Carnell, sailer, boatbuilder, boat chemist, Michalak prompter (the Carnell flange, etc.,etc.,), promoter of all those and more, boat plans promoter, writer, good guy... and I'm sure those who knew the man better could similarly go on "And on and on. There's no end to it." ...my symapthies to them.
          ------------------------------------------------------


          http://david-greenwood.blogspot.com.au/

          "Dave Carnell, who has passed away, revamped the plans and wrote the sketch below:


          The $200 Sailboat


          This sailing skiff is 15'-6" x 4'-4" and weighs 100 pounds. It is based on the hull of Phil Bolger's Featherwind. Presenting the design in his book Small Boats in 1973, he described it as the best flat-bottomed, straight-sided sailboat he could draw and continued,

          "I don't see how a real sailboat, with as good performance and as
          few vices as most, could be put together, one-off, much quicker
          than this one, or out of cheaper materials."

          I liked the hull, but not the fussy sloop rig, so I changed that to a Sunfish-type lateen rig because the performance of a Sunfish I had owned was so impressive. I built the hull, found a surplus lateen sail, and made a mast from a 2" by 4" and spars from 1-1/2" square sticks. I had only sailed it once when I took it to Mystic Seaport's Small Craft Weekend in 1979. Many people tried the boat with universally complimentary comments about its performance. Right off I converted Bolger's fixed leeboard and rudder to kickup versions, so I could sail off the beach.


          At Lewes, DE, on Delaware Bay I sailed alongside Sunfish in fairly brisk conditions and stayed right with them. They were really wet while I was fat, dumb, happy, and dry. I borrowed a friend's Sunfish rig and dropped it right into the boat; it performed beautifully. My wife and I took another couple sailing on a reservoir in PA. There was plenty of room to be comfortable and the boat sailed well.


          Fifteen years later I set out to design a high-performance, minimum cost sailboat. I took the Bolger hull and eliminated all unnecessary framing and features and built a prototype. It sailed beautifully, and I promoted it as the $200 SAILBOAT in Messing About in Boats. The hull is built "instant boat" style. You make three frames, a transom and stem and fasten the sides to them. Put on the external chine and the bottom planking, turn it over to receive the mast partners and step. Then make a simple leeboard and a kickup rudder of 1/2" plywood and you have the hull. The bare hull weight of my prototype built of B-C pine was 107 lb.; built of fir or mahogany plywood it might weigh 15-20 lb less. A Sunfish weighs 139 lb. After building his, Jimmy Piver wrote me to say that I should be promoting it as a high-performance boat, not a cheap one. He described his boat going to windward in the crowded anchorage of Taylor's Creek, Beaufort, NC, against the tide with a crew weight of 640 pounds as truly outstanding sailing.

          http://web.archive.org/web/20030212185555/http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/sailboat.html
          http://web.archive.org/web/20050131184311/http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/sailboat.html
          http://web.archive.org/web/20090603023938/http://www.smallboatforum.com/1_FSB/1fsb.htm


          http://boatbuild2006.blogspot.com.au/
          http://www.angelfire.com/ex/ti/FWmain.html
          http://ginzorama.blogspot.com.au/

          http://www.simplicityboats.com/featherwind.html
          https://sites.google.com/site/molepages/brick23
          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/featherwind/index.htm

          http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/
          http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/sailboat.html


          Many Featherwind boats were built from plans sold by PB & PB&F for years. Many, many more were built from the plans contained in Bolger's old books _Small Boats_ and the earlier _Very Small Boats_. Many plans sold and boats built to Dave Carnell's "$200 Sailboat" (later "Nutmeg") version. The plans were advertised for years before the internet. The boats in number were built and sailed for years by people that existed before the internet and internet forums for sharing experiences and photos, and that's the only reason there isn't a lot of "Featherwind" related material on the net. Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily disappear and many have.

          Graeme

          'There is a lake which one day denied it to itself to flow away: since then this lake has risen higher and higher..." - Friedrich Nietzsche
        • graeme
          ... A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I m a chemical engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics to me. First Law: You
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
            > Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal
            > snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily
            > disappear and many have.

            A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I'm a chemical
            engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics to me.

            First Law: You can't win.
            Second Law: You can't even break even.
            Third Law: You can't get out of the game.
            These are immutable.
            - davecarnell2003, Mon Feb 15, 2010
          • prairiedog2332
            Graeme, Thanks for digging up all that information from the way-back program. Very interesting to review. Featherwind is certainly a nice looking hull and
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
              Graeme,

              Thanks for digging up all that information from the way-back program.
              Very interesting to review. Featherwind is certainly a nice looking hull
              and seems to work well even with a lot of weight aboard. I would still
              prefer to have the Michalak leeboard over the one shown is all. Probably
              the one for the Mayfly 14 would be adaptable.

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm
              <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm>

              Jim mentions if you are thinking of a Mayfly 14, may as well go for the
              16 as the 14 is a bit heavy to car-top anyway, but to me a 14 will work
              a lot better if you have a pick-up as the conveyance. So that is
              something to consider.

              Nels

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme" wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > > Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal
              > > snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily
              > > disappear and many have.
              >
              > A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I'm a chemical
              > engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics
              to me.
              >
              > First Law: You can't win.
              > Second Law: You can't even break even.
              > Third Law: You can't get out of the game.
              > These are immutable.
              > - davecarnell2003, Mon Feb 15, 2010
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike Graf
              Dave Carnell....back in the pre-internet days when were all waiting for the next Small Boat Journal(remember when it was big and square format) or
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
                Dave Carnell....back in the pre-internet days when were
                all waiting for the next Small Boat Journal(remember when it was big
                and square format) or Messin'.....or waiting for a personal (hand
                written)response from Phil...Dave was always in the mix. Gonna miss that
                guys clear thinking advice....so now he's made the big crossing....warm
                winds and following seas Dave
                Payson.Bolger.Carnell..........hope there's some good plywood where
                they land







                -----------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > Sad news came to me below, just now.
                >
                > Vale Dave Carnell, sailer, boatbuilder, boat chemist, Michalak
                > prompter (the Carnell flange, etc.,etc.,), promoter of all those and
                > more, boat plans promoter, writer, good guy... and I'm sure those who
                > knew the man better could similarly go on "And on and on. There's no
                > end to it." ...my symapthies to them.
                > ------------------------------------------------------
                >
              • Steven
                Thank you all for the comments. One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
                  Thank you all for the comments.

                  One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.

                  I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.

                  Steven
                • sirdarnell
                  Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
                    Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thank you all for the comments.
                    >
                    > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                    >
                    > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                    >
                    > Steven
                    >
                  • Steven
                    HI, Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
                      HI,

                      Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                      At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                      Thanks
                      Steven

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thank you all for the comments.
                      > >
                      > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                      > >
                      > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                      > >
                      > > Steven
                      > >
                      >
                    • prairiedog2332
                      Steven, Yes that is correct. If you already have the seams taped and epoxied, then you pretty much have to use epoxy for glassing the bottom as well. Polyester
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
                        Steven,

                        Yes that is correct. If you already have the seams taped and epoxied,
                        then you pretty much have to use epoxy for glassing the bottom as well.
                        Polyester will not bond well over the epoxy on the seams and you want
                        the glass to overlap them.

                        Once the bottom is glassed and after sanding but before painting attach
                        the skids with epoxy and screws driven from inside and a light fillet
                        which can be made by just smoothing the squeeze-out.

                        Not to confuse the issue, but if the hull was constructed using
                        polyester on the taped seams and to glass the bottom you could use
                        either TB or epoxy to secure the skids although epoxy would be stronger.
                        They both can be used as a glue whereas polyester is not considered as
                        strong.

                        Some builders advise securing the skids with some sort of bedding
                        compound so they can be replaced if necessary. Others advise using
                        screws and then removing them and filling the holes after everything has
                        set up. Some folks pre-drill holes and use ringed nails off-set from
                        each other and at different angles to lock the skids in place. Some use
                        epoxy and lots of weights.

                        Nels

                        "Steven" wrote: >
                        > HI,
                        >
                        > Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied.
                        I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be
                        grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't
                        work from the reading I have been doing).
                        >
                        > At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which
                        are already taped with epoxy.
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > Steven




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • john colley
                        I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.   There is magic in
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 27, 2013
                          I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.



                           
                          "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                          -Sigurd Olson


                          ________________________________
                          From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 12:46 AM
                          Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                           
                          HI,

                          Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                          At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                          Thanks
                          Steven

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                          >
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thank you all for the comments.
                          > >
                          > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                          > >
                          > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                          > >
                          > > Steven
                          > >
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Andres Espino
                          Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to epoxy.  This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is happening so i guess the chemicals
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
                            Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to epoxy.  This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is happening so i guess the chemicals in epoxy are more versitile or something.

                            Andrew




                            ________________________________
                            From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:41 PM
                            Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                             
                            Thank you all for the comments.

                            One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.

                            I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.

                            Steven




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Andres Espino
                            Polyester resins and fillers do not bond very well over Epoxy.  Epoxy over polyester works. Andrew ________________________________ From: Steven
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
                              Polyester resins and fillers do not bond very well over Epoxy.  Epoxy over polyester works.

                              Andrew




                              ________________________________
                              From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:46 AM
                              Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                               
                              HI,

                              Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                              At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                              Thanks
                              Steven

                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thank you all for the comments.
                              > >
                              > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                              > >
                              > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                              > >
                              > > Steven
                              > >
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andres Espino
                              The problem usually occurs when restoring older factory boats which were molded with polyester resins.  There are reasons why polyester resins work better in
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
                                The problem usually occurs when restoring older factory boats which were molded with polyester resins.  There are reasons why polyester resins work better in molds or used to.  Now-a-days if someone is building a boat iot is better to use Epoxy exclusively throughout.

                                Andrew




                                ________________________________
                                From: john colley <Helliconia54@...>
                                To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:10 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                                 
                                I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.

                                 
                                "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                -Sigurd Olson

                                ________________________________
                                From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 12:46 AM
                                Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)


                                 
                                HI,

                                Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                                At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                                Thanks
                                Steven

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                                >
                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thank you all for the comments.
                                > >
                                > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                                > >
                                > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                                > >
                                > > Steven
                                > >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • prairiedog2332
                                From what I understand epoxy interlinks more completely at the molecular level than polyester. Polyester links in long chains but the chains themselves do not
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
                                  From what I understand epoxy interlinks more completely at the molecular
                                  level than polyester. Polyester links in long chains but the chains
                                  themselves do not interlink like epoxy does so definitely epoxy will
                                  give a stronger bond no matter what it is applied to.


                                  The point that Payson makes in his build book, is that polyester bonded
                                  well enough in his destruction tests that the outer wood plywood layer
                                  gave way while the poly/glass connection remained intact. Obviously
                                  because plywood is not linked together at the molecular level as
                                  strongly as the resins are. The plywood did not separate at the plywood
                                  glue line but just shredded off in splinters next to the polyester
                                  interface.


                                  My point has been when epoxy costs over 3 times as much as polyester,
                                  then it might be strong enough for me. As mentioned, poly is $32/gal
                                  epoxy $101 to $158/gal where I am. But I will still use epoxy where it's
                                  gluing strength is required, but not for glassing or filleting.


                                  The other issue often mentioned is that polyester is not as waterproof
                                  as epoxy. I guess it to be more waterproof than the plywood and just as
                                  waterproof as most exterior paints I know of. So in a boat mostly dry
                                  stored and not left on the water all season it should last awhile. As
                                  mentioned Payson had some boats over 20 years old and so does Jim. I
                                  have one over 10 years old and a previous one as well and the joints
                                  were solid but the water got in under the plywood where there was no
                                  glass.


                                  But if a builder feels the extra cost in using epoxy instead is felt
                                  warranted then that is the best choice no doubt.

                                  Nels


                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to
                                  epoxy. This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is
                                  happening so i guess the chemicals in epoxy are more versitile or
                                  something.
                                  >
                                  > Andrew
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: Steven sdantonio93@...
                                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:41 PM
                                  > Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re:
                                  Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Â
                                  > Thank you all for the comments.
                                  >
                                  > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume
                                  I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could
                                  use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only
                                  epoxy to put them on.
                                  >
                                  > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a
                                  nightmare.
                                  >
                                  > Steven
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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