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Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.

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  • prairiedog2332
    Steven, Since it is meant to be a practice boat I might just glass the bottom to get some practice glassing and easy to do on the inverted hull. And also if
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 23, 2013
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      Steven,

      Since it is meant to be a "practice" boat I might just glass the bottom
      to get some practice glassing and easy to do on the inverted hull. And
      also if stored inverted and in the shade may last quite well without
      checking a lot. The paint you mention should work well. A lot of water
      based paints contain polyester as a binder.

      Not meaning to be overly negative but re-sale value of home-built boats
      is pretty low, lucky to even cover the cost of materials. Also
      Featherwind was not a favorite design of Phil Bolger. He wrote:

      "Featherwind carries a lee helm. Use a loose-footed jib with two sheets,
      tacked down to where the club pivots on the plans. Or, better still,
      build a Surf instead; everybody likes those."

      http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm
      <http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm>

      I have Surf plan but I still think though, a boat like that would even
      be better with Jim's leeboard and rudder design and enough space on the
      transom for a little OB or trolling motor. So that would bring up the
      Mayfly series 12-14-16' versions.

      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm
      <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm>


      But you might also want to try a taped seam design and a really good
      choice in my view is Woobo. The cost of these plans are a steal!


      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/woobo/index.htm
      <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/woobo/index.htm>

      You have to keep in mind Jim's boats are heavier with the water-tight
      decks and hatches, but are also safer and easier to re-right and bail
      out with these chambers at each end. Plus providing secure dry storage.

      Nels


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote:
      >
      > Hi Nels,
      >
      > Thank you for the two comments, I will definitely consider glassing
      the boat, at least the outside. I'm thinking of this boat as a test
      case, almost a discarcable boat just to get my feet wet in the building
      process. The ultimate boats I want are the Bolger featherwind (16ftX5ft
      sailing dinghy) and the Bolger Martha Jane (23'6" x 6ft coastal sailer).
      But I figured I would start smaller and work my way up as I love
      woodworking and this seems to be a pretty good path to take with my
      personal boats. Of course, applying the same rational my house was
      supposed to be a 10 year starter house with the idea of moving up to a
      bigger one, and 25 years later I'm still here.
      >
      > Glassing would of course make and sale value much higher than if I
      tried to sell it with all kinds of checks. The alternative it to treat
      the checks with the polyesther glass gel you mentioned as they occure.
      I'm assuming the checks would be entirely cosmetic and not effect the
      sailability or safety.
      >
      > I will have to think on this. Luckly I'm at a good point to stop and
      think.
      >
      > How is the adheasion of latex on top of polyesther? any experience
      with this? I am trying to avoid adding colorants directly to the
      polyesther (something I do routinely with nitrocellulouse laquer).
      >
      > Thanks
      > Steven
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
      > >
      > > FYI You can purchase an additive that converts laminating resin to
      > > finishing resin. Called "Air Dry Additive" at this link.
      > >
      > > http://www.fibertek.ca/resin.htm
      > >
      > > Dynamite suggests "about a tablespoon of additive to a pint of
      resin.".
      > > And as mentioned I strongly recommenced his build book if looking at
      > > this alternative. With epoxy over 3 times the cost of polyester it
      is
      > > what I can afford but suggest doing some testing if in doubt. It is
      more
      > > about how careful and knowledgeable you are about applying a product
      > > than just the cost of the product, whether it be resins, plywood or
      > > paints. This man has done his homework as have others and share
      their
      > > experience quite freely.
      > >
      > > Nels
      > >
      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote: >
      > > > Polyester finishing resin is used for the final application of
      resin.
      > > I.e. the finish layer. So if your cloth is thick enough that you
      are
      > > going to use more than one application of rosin to fill the weave
      use
      > > regular rosin except for the last application. Finishing rosin
      contains
      > > wax that helps the resin cure hard.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • graeme
      Nels after that Bolger snippet you ve quoted below even, in the mid 80 s, an SBJ reader wrote into the Bolger s Corner section of the magazine asking about
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
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        Nels after that Bolger snippet you've quoted below even, in the mid 80's, an SBJ reader wrote into the Bolger's Corner section of the magazine asking about modifying a light dory pulling boat design for sail. Bolger replied that if he was going to do that now it would pretty much turn out to be his "Surf" design.

        The partial quote of Bolger below is from his 1982 preface to _Bolger Boats_, a combination of two much earlier books that contain numerous even earlier designs. In that preface he mentions all the varied letters he'd received about the designs in the earlier books and that he'd started to make a list of things he then thought ought to be different about some of those designs. He then mentioned six or so of what he then termed afterthoughts. In 1982.

        In _Small Boats_ in 1973 he wrote when writing in the "Light Dory Type V" chapter that the "Featherwind", featured elsewhere in the book, was his version of a light dory modified to sail. A light, simple, easily built boat. He also wrote there when writing in the "Featherwind" chapter that in 1961 he'd been talked into designing a sailing version of an earlier light dory type. He made substantial hull changes better suited to sail including adding a heavy steel centre board, but even though he thought it went pretty well the customers still thought it tender (they were not dorymen), not as good looking as the rowing dory, and above all baulked at the extra cost of the sailing inclusions. An idea if not the actual design of that sailing dory can be seen in Bolger's "Morning Star" multi-purpose dory design at Down East Dories plans page. So then, to afterthoughts.

        Bolger's ideas and style changed greatly with time and noticeably over such a lengthy interval. Bolger was famous for steering customers toward designs other than those they'd enquired about. He was famous too for honest self-criticism, for calling a design of his a bad one and withholding it from sale. Yet from the 1980's on well into the 2000's he was happy to sell "Featherwind" plans, as his firm PB&F still would be. He was also happy for plans of "Featherwind" to be sold as Dave Carnell's modified "$200 Sailboat", and the later "Nutmeg" design. So much for after afterthoughts then...

        In thinking about what Bolger wrote of "Featherwind" in that future preface to _Bolger Boats_ consider that he does not at all indicate it was an un-favourite design, rather consider the above, and any additional cost and complexity involved in relation to his late 1960's "Light Dory Type V" pulling boat, and the 70's "Surf". When he wrote that he was well into a sailboat design path he'd entered by the 1980's of maximising design performance and simplicity while minimising cost and build, and shocking all and sundry with truly square boats. That is why he suggests building a "Surf" instead of the slightly more complicated "Featherwind" hull. Also for the reason that "Featherwind" had a more complicated balanced club-boom jib for a more complicated sloop rig than the instant boat sharpie sprit rig of "Surf", and that people had written him saying "Featherwind" had a lee helm in any case. So then, afterthoughts.

        The only reasons he didn't suggest building a "June Bug" instead of a "Surf" instead of a "Featherwind" in that 1983 _Bolger Boats_ preface can only be due to the fact that the later two designs featured in the earlier two hard cover books as republished in combination, and that those unedited books republished as one paperback were the reason for the preface! Otherwise the truly square "June Bug" design as had been published a year earlier in 1982 in _30-ODD Boats_ would have been recommended as it always was by Bolger from then on afterwards, after thought, for any similar use!

        Bolger concluded his 1983 brief half page preface to _Bolger Boats_ by writing about listing afterthoughts thus:

        "And on and on. There's no end to it.

        What I wrote in these two books, as opposed to what I drew, leaves me fairly contented. Draw your own conclusions from that."

        Graeme



        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:

        > Featherwind was not a favorite design of Phil Bolger. He wrote:
        >
        > "Featherwind carries a lee helm. Use a loose-footed jib with two sheets,
        > tacked down to where the club pivots on the plans. Or, better still,
        > build a Surf instead; everybody likes those."
        >
        > http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm
        > <http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm>
        >
        > I have Surf plan but I still think though, a boat like that would even
        > be better with Jim's leeboard and rudder design and enough space on the
        > transom for a little OB or trolling motor.

        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote:
        > >
        The ultimate boats I want are the Bolger featherwind (16ftX5ft
        > sailing dinghy) and the Bolger Martha Jane (23'6" x 6ft coastal sailer).
      • Steven
        Hi Nels, Thank you for the comments. One reason for the featherwind is the wide beam which I like for stability. Does anyone know how much lee heml she
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
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          Hi Nels,

          Thank you for the comments. One reason for the featherwind is the wide beam which I like for stability. Does anyone know how much lee heml she typically carries, can it be cured by raking the sail or moving the mast step and partner back a few inches? Or is the loose footed jib the way to go? I looked at the surf and it's beam is less then the summerbreeze I'm currently building (and I really like the tombstone transon rather than being pointy of both ends which I think adds to the stability).

          Maybe I'll even get ambitious and run the featherwind through a hull design program and see if it suggests a better place for the main sail. Or I could always take your advice and make something else. You've been at this a lot longer than I have.

          I wonce wrote Bolger and asked about widening out the windspring (my original first choice) and putting a transome on it, and he suggested rather strongly to make a different boat like the featherwind.

          I have the plans and book for the Mayfly 14, so this is an option also.

          Thanks again,
          Steven

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
          >
          > Steven,
          >
          > Since it is meant to be a "practice" boat I might just glass the bottom
          > to get some practice glassing and easy to do on the inverted hull. And
          > also if stored inverted and in the shade may last quite well without
          > checking a lot. The paint you mention should work well. A lot of water
          > based paints contain polyester as a binder.
          >
          > Not meaning to be overly negative but re-sale value of home-built boats
          > is pretty low, lucky to even cover the cost of materials. Also
          > Featherwind was not a favorite design of Phil Bolger. He wrote:
          >
          > "Featherwind carries a lee helm. Use a loose-footed jib with two sheets,
          > tacked down to where the club pivots on the plans. Or, better still,
          > build a Surf instead; everybody likes those."
          >
          > http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm
          > <http://www.instantboats.com/surf.htm>
          >
          > I have Surf plan but I still think though, a boat like that would even
          > be better with Jim's leeboard and rudder design and enough space on the
          > transom for a little OB or trolling motor. So that would bring up the
          > Mayfly series 12-14-16' versions.
          >
          > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm
          > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm>
          >
          >
          > But you might also want to try a taped seam design and a really good
          > choice in my view is Woobo. The cost of these plans are a steal!
          >
          >
          > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/woobo/index.htm
          > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/woobo/index.htm>
          >
          > You have to keep in mind Jim's boats are heavier with the water-tight
          > decks and hatches, but are also safer and easier to re-right and bail
          > out with these chambers at each end. Plus providing secure dry storage.
          >
          > Nels
          >
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Nels,
          > >
          > > Thank you for the two comments, I will definitely consider glassing
          > the boat, at least the outside. I'm thinking of this boat as a test
          > case, almost a discarcable boat just to get my feet wet in the building
          > process. The ultimate boats I want are the Bolger featherwind (16ftX5ft
          > sailing dinghy) and the Bolger Martha Jane (23'6" x 6ft coastal sailer).
          > But I figured I would start smaller and work my way up as I love
          > woodworking and this seems to be a pretty good path to take with my
          > personal boats. Of course, applying the same rational my house was
          > supposed to be a 10 year starter house with the idea of moving up to a
          > bigger one, and 25 years later I'm still here.
          > >
          > > Glassing would of course make and sale value much higher than if I
          > tried to sell it with all kinds of checks. The alternative it to treat
          > the checks with the polyesther glass gel you mentioned as they occure.
          > I'm assuming the checks would be entirely cosmetic and not effect the
          > sailability or safety.
          > >
          > > I will have to think on this. Luckly I'm at a good point to stop and
          > think.
          > >
          > > How is the adheasion of latex on top of polyesther? any experience
          > with this? I am trying to avoid adding colorants directly to the
          > polyesther (something I do routinely with nitrocellulouse laquer).
          > >
          > > Thanks
          > > Steven
          > >
          > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > FYI You can purchase an additive that converts laminating resin to
          > > > finishing resin. Called "Air Dry Additive" at this link.
          > > >
          > > > http://www.fibertek.ca/resin.htm
          > > >
          > > > Dynamite suggests "about a tablespoon of additive to a pint of
          > resin.".
          > > > And as mentioned I strongly recommenced his build book if looking at
          > > > this alternative. With epoxy over 3 times the cost of polyester it
          > is
          > > > what I can afford but suggest doing some testing if in doubt. It is
          > more
          > > > about how careful and knowledgeable you are about applying a product
          > > > than just the cost of the product, whether it be resins, plywood or
          > > > paints. This man has done his homework as have others and share
          > their
          > > > experience quite freely.
          > > >
          > > > Nels
          > > >
          > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote: >
          > > > > Polyester finishing resin is used for the final application of
          > resin.
          > > > I.e. the finish layer. So if your cloth is thick enough that you
          > are
          > > > going to use more than one application of rosin to fill the weave
          > use
          > > > regular rosin except for the last application. Finishing rosin
          > contains
          > > > wax that helps the resin cure hard.
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • prairiedog2332
          Seemed Featherwind morphed into Dave Carnell s $200 Sailboat which he converted to using a Sunfish rig?
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
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            Seemed Featherwind morphed into Dave Carnell's $200 Sailboat which he
            converted to using a Sunfish rig?

            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/featherwind/
            <http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/featherwind/>

            Then David Beebe, who designed Summer Breeze tried the 113 sq. ft.
            lugsail from Windsprint? Not sure as a lot of the links are dead ends
            now. Those might be my choices over the original sail plan as they
            relatively easy to locate for best balance in conjunction with a
            leeboard. And Polysail Int. has made a lot of these sails.

            http://www.simplicityboats.com/featherwind.html
            <http://www.simplicityboats.com/featherwind.html>


            Then along came Nutmeg! To quote from a post, "I bought Nutmeg sailboat
            plans. This boat is a simplifyed version of Bolger's Featherwind that is
            15.5' x 4.5'."


            Thing is a lot of the plans offered shows how-to builds, with little
            about the performance of the finished product. So you have to do some
            digging to find anything you can really trust. A lot is exaggerated as
            well. So I would tend to stick with designs I am pretty sure have been
            honestly proven. And that includes the ones I have already mentioned.

            Nels

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote:
            >
            > Hi Nels,
            >
            > Thank you for the comments. One reason for the featherwind is the
            wide beam which I like for stability. Does anyone know how much lee
            heml she typically carries, can it be cured by raking the sail or moving
            the mast step and partner back a few inches? Or is the loose footed jib
            the way to go? I looked at the surf and it's beam is less then the
            summerbreeze I'm currently building (and I really like the tombstone
            transon rather than being pointy of both ends which I think adds to the
            stability).
            >
            > Maybe I'll even get ambitious and run the featherwind through a hull
            design program and see if it suggests a better place for the main sail.
            Or I could always take your advice and make something else. You've been
            at this a lot longer than I have.
            >
            > I wonce wrote Bolger and asked about widening out the windspring (my
            original first choice) and putting a transome on it, and he suggested
            rather strongly to make a different boat like the featherwind.
            >
            > I have the plans and book for the Mayfly 14, so this is an option
            also.
            >
            > Thanks again,
            > Steven




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • graeme
            ... The cure is actually easier than first building and fitting the balanced club boom and the unboomed jib sail itself has less to make and fit! Nels answered
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
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              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@...> wrote:
              > One reason for the featherwind is the wide beam which I like for
              > stability. Does anyone know how much lee heml she typically
              > carries, can it be cured by raking the sail or moving the mast step
              > and partner back a few inches? Or is the loose footed jib the
              > way to go?


              The cure is actually easier than first building and fitting the balanced club boom and the unboomed jib sail itself has less to make and fit! Nels answered this one, or rather Bolger did when 10 years after "Featherwind" featured in _Small Boats_ he noted the issue and the simple fix in that line quoted from the preface to _Bolger Boats_:

              "Featherwind carries a lee helm. Use a loose-footed jib with two
              sheets, tacked down to where the club pivots on the plans."

              So don't make a balanced club boom for the jib. Rule that one out.

              Approximately double the length of jib sheet rope required and fix the middle of it to the jib clew and run each part aft either side of the boat through a deadeye or turning block or around a cleat or a pin positioned to give a good sheeting angle - about 15 degrees might do it but that can be played with to get the optimum when setting the boat up.

              So just make a jib sail in the usual way then. Don't make it with both pivot and luff roping, just keep an edge wire or rope in the sail luff by whichever usual manner.

              Rig the jib with the tack tensioned and fastened down by the luff rope to the cleat where the original as designed but now discarded pivot rope was made off. That will move the tack, luff, and the jib centre of effort (the whole jib) a little aft, but apparently far enough aft to eliminate any lee helm. The clew of the jib will now be situated a little aft of the mast when beating or close reaching (which is why it's boom is done away with). Problem gone. Easier to make, faster and closer winded for just a tad more handling of jib sheets involved when sailing than the original self-tending jib.

              Or for an even simpler option with reasonable performance grab a cheap second hand Sunfish rig or knock a similar lateen up out of some tarp and a few sticks, or if local winds are light sometimes make it larger and easy to reef...

              ------------------------------------------------------

              Sad news came to me below, just now.

              Vale Dave Carnell, sailer, boatbuilder, boat chemist, Michalak prompter (the Carnell flange, etc.,etc.,), promoter of all those and more, boat plans promoter, writer, good guy... and I'm sure those who knew the man better could similarly go on "And on and on. There's no end to it." ...my symapthies to them.
              ------------------------------------------------------


              http://david-greenwood.blogspot.com.au/

              "Dave Carnell, who has passed away, revamped the plans and wrote the sketch below:


              The $200 Sailboat


              This sailing skiff is 15'-6" x 4'-4" and weighs 100 pounds. It is based on the hull of Phil Bolger's Featherwind. Presenting the design in his book Small Boats in 1973, he described it as the best flat-bottomed, straight-sided sailboat he could draw and continued,

              "I don't see how a real sailboat, with as good performance and as
              few vices as most, could be put together, one-off, much quicker
              than this one, or out of cheaper materials."

              I liked the hull, but not the fussy sloop rig, so I changed that to a Sunfish-type lateen rig because the performance of a Sunfish I had owned was so impressive. I built the hull, found a surplus lateen sail, and made a mast from a 2" by 4" and spars from 1-1/2" square sticks. I had only sailed it once when I took it to Mystic Seaport's Small Craft Weekend in 1979. Many people tried the boat with universally complimentary comments about its performance. Right off I converted Bolger's fixed leeboard and rudder to kickup versions, so I could sail off the beach.


              At Lewes, DE, on Delaware Bay I sailed alongside Sunfish in fairly brisk conditions and stayed right with them. They were really wet while I was fat, dumb, happy, and dry. I borrowed a friend's Sunfish rig and dropped it right into the boat; it performed beautifully. My wife and I took another couple sailing on a reservoir in PA. There was plenty of room to be comfortable and the boat sailed well.


              Fifteen years later I set out to design a high-performance, minimum cost sailboat. I took the Bolger hull and eliminated all unnecessary framing and features and built a prototype. It sailed beautifully, and I promoted it as the $200 SAILBOAT in Messing About in Boats. The hull is built "instant boat" style. You make three frames, a transom and stem and fasten the sides to them. Put on the external chine and the bottom planking, turn it over to receive the mast partners and step. Then make a simple leeboard and a kickup rudder of 1/2" plywood and you have the hull. The bare hull weight of my prototype built of B-C pine was 107 lb.; built of fir or mahogany plywood it might weigh 15-20 lb less. A Sunfish weighs 139 lb. After building his, Jimmy Piver wrote me to say that I should be promoting it as a high-performance boat, not a cheap one. He described his boat going to windward in the crowded anchorage of Taylor's Creek, Beaufort, NC, against the tide with a crew weight of 640 pounds as truly outstanding sailing.

              http://web.archive.org/web/20030212185555/http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/sailboat.html
              http://web.archive.org/web/20050131184311/http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/sailboat.html
              http://web.archive.org/web/20090603023938/http://www.smallboatforum.com/1_FSB/1fsb.htm


              http://boatbuild2006.blogspot.com.au/
              http://www.angelfire.com/ex/ti/FWmain.html
              http://ginzorama.blogspot.com.au/

              http://www.simplicityboats.com/featherwind.html
              https://sites.google.com/site/molepages/brick23
              http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/featherwind/index.htm

              http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/
              http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/sailboat.html


              Many Featherwind boats were built from plans sold by PB & PB&F for years. Many, many more were built from the plans contained in Bolger's old books _Small Boats_ and the earlier _Very Small Boats_. Many plans sold and boats built to Dave Carnell's "$200 Sailboat" (later "Nutmeg") version. The plans were advertised for years before the internet. The boats in number were built and sailed for years by people that existed before the internet and internet forums for sharing experiences and photos, and that's the only reason there isn't a lot of "Featherwind" related material on the net. Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily disappear and many have.

              Graeme

              'There is a lake which one day denied it to itself to flow away: since then this lake has risen higher and higher..." - Friedrich Nietzsche
            • graeme
              ... A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I m a chemical engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics to me. First Law: You
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 24, 2013
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                > Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal
                > snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily
                > disappear and many have.

                A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I'm a chemical
                engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics to me.

                First Law: You can't win.
                Second Law: You can't even break even.
                Third Law: You can't get out of the game.
                These are immutable.
                - davecarnell2003, Mon Feb 15, 2010
              • prairiedog2332
                Graeme, Thanks for digging up all that information from the way-back program. Very interesting to review. Featherwind is certainly a nice looking hull and
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
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                  Graeme,

                  Thanks for digging up all that information from the way-back program.
                  Very interesting to review. Featherwind is certainly a nice looking hull
                  and seems to work well even with a lot of weight aboard. I would still
                  prefer to have the Michalak leeboard over the one shown is all. Probably
                  the one for the Mayfly 14 would be adaptable.

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm
                  <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mayfly14/index.htm>

                  Jim mentions if you are thinking of a Mayfly 14, may as well go for the
                  16 as the 14 is a bit heavy to car-top anyway, but to me a 14 will work
                  a lot better if you have a pick-up as the conveyance. So that is
                  something to consider.

                  Nels

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "graeme" wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Little ever placed on the intertubes disappears, but old personal
                  > > snapshots and handwritten letters from a prior era could easily
                  > > disappear and many have.
                  >
                  > A smart physical chemist who worked in my group (I'm a chemical
                  > engineer) once very simply explained the three laws of thermodynamics
                  to me.
                  >
                  > First Law: You can't win.
                  > Second Law: You can't even break even.
                  > Third Law: You can't get out of the game.
                  > These are immutable.
                  > - davecarnell2003, Mon Feb 15, 2010
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mike Graf
                  Dave Carnell....back in the pre-internet days when were all waiting for the next Small Boat Journal(remember when it was big and square format) or
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
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                    Dave Carnell....back in the pre-internet days when were
                    all waiting for the next Small Boat Journal(remember when it was big
                    and square format) or Messin'.....or waiting for a personal (hand
                    written)response from Phil...Dave was always in the mix. Gonna miss that
                    guys clear thinking advice....so now he's made the big crossing....warm
                    winds and following seas Dave
                    Payson.Bolger.Carnell..........hope there's some good plywood where
                    they land







                    -----------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    > Sad news came to me below, just now.
                    >
                    > Vale Dave Carnell, sailer, boatbuilder, boat chemist, Michalak
                    > prompter (the Carnell flange, etc.,etc.,), promoter of all those and
                    > more, boat plans promoter, writer, good guy... and I'm sure those who
                    > knew the man better could similarly go on "And on and on. There's no
                    > end to it." ...my symapthies to them.
                    > ------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                  • Steven
                    Thank you all for the comments. One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 25, 2013
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                      Thank you all for the comments.

                      One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.

                      I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.

                      Steven
                    • sirdarnell
                      Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
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                        Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you all for the comments.
                        >
                        > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                        >
                        > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                        >
                        > Steven
                        >
                      • Steven
                        HI, Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
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                          HI,

                          Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                          At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                          Thanks
                          Steven

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                          >
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Thank you all for the comments.
                          > >
                          > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                          > >
                          > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                          > >
                          > > Steven
                          > >
                          >
                        • prairiedog2332
                          Steven, Yes that is correct. If you already have the seams taped and epoxied, then you pretty much have to use epoxy for glassing the bottom as well. Polyester
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 26, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Steven,

                            Yes that is correct. If you already have the seams taped and epoxied,
                            then you pretty much have to use epoxy for glassing the bottom as well.
                            Polyester will not bond well over the epoxy on the seams and you want
                            the glass to overlap them.

                            Once the bottom is glassed and after sanding but before painting attach
                            the skids with epoxy and screws driven from inside and a light fillet
                            which can be made by just smoothing the squeeze-out.

                            Not to confuse the issue, but if the hull was constructed using
                            polyester on the taped seams and to glass the bottom you could use
                            either TB or epoxy to secure the skids although epoxy would be stronger.
                            They both can be used as a glue whereas polyester is not considered as
                            strong.

                            Some builders advise securing the skids with some sort of bedding
                            compound so they can be replaced if necessary. Others advise using
                            screws and then removing them and filling the holes after everything has
                            set up. Some folks pre-drill holes and use ringed nails off-set from
                            each other and at different angles to lock the skids in place. Some use
                            epoxy and lots of weights.

                            Nels

                            "Steven" wrote: >
                            > HI,
                            >
                            > Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied.
                            I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be
                            grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't
                            work from the reading I have been doing).
                            >
                            > At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which
                            are already taped with epoxy.
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > Steven




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • john colley
                            I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.   There is magic in
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 27, 2013
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                              I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.



                               
                              "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                              -Sigurd Olson


                              ________________________________
                              From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 12:46 AM
                              Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                               
                              HI,

                              Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                              At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                              Thanks
                              Steven

                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thank you all for the comments.
                              > >
                              > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                              > >
                              > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                              > >
                              > > Steven
                              > >
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andres Espino
                              Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to epoxy.  This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is happening so i guess the chemicals
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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                                Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to epoxy.  This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is happening so i guess the chemicals in epoxy are more versitile or something.

                                Andrew




                                ________________________________
                                From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:41 PM
                                Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                                 
                                Thank you all for the comments.

                                One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.

                                I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.

                                Steven




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Andres Espino
                                Polyester resins and fillers do not bond very well over Epoxy.  Epoxy over polyester works. Andrew ________________________________ From: Steven
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
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                                  Polyester resins and fillers do not bond very well over Epoxy.  Epoxy over polyester works.

                                  Andrew




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 7:46 AM
                                  Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                                   
                                  HI,

                                  Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                                  At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                                  Thanks
                                  Steven

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                                  >
                                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you all for the comments.
                                  > >
                                  > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                                  > >
                                  > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                                  > >
                                  > > Steven
                                  > >
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Andres Espino
                                  The problem usually occurs when restoring older factory boats which were molded with polyester resins.  There are reasons why polyester resins work better in
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The problem usually occurs when restoring older factory boats which were molded with polyester resins.  There are reasons why polyester resins work better in molds or used to.  Now-a-days if someone is building a boat iot is better to use Epoxy exclusively throughout.

                                    Andrew




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: john colley <Helliconia54@...>
                                    To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:10 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)



                                     
                                    I have heard that poly does not stick to epoxy.But why mix products? epoxy is far more superior in all aspects other than uv tolerance.

                                     
                                    "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                    -Sigurd Olson

                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Steven <sdantonio93@...>
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 12:46 AM
                                    Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re: Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)


                                     
                                    HI,

                                    Let me rephrase my original post. I have the seams taped and epoxied. I want to go with polyester over the epoxy. So th epoly would be grabbing onto the epoxy (which I am becoming more of the opinion doesn't work from the reading I have been doing).

                                    At this time most of the wood is still bard except at the seams which are already taped with epoxy.

                                    Thanks
                                    Steven

                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Lightly sand to provide some tooth for the epoxy to grab onto. Fillets on either side will add extra bonding.
                                    >
                                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Steven" <sdantonio93@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you all for the comments.
                                    > >
                                    > > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only epoxy to put them on.
                                    > >
                                    > > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a nightmare.
                                    > >
                                    > > Steven
                                    > >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • prairiedog2332
                                    From what I understand epoxy interlinks more completely at the molecular level than polyester. Polyester links in long chains but the chains themselves do not
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 31, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      From what I understand epoxy interlinks more completely at the molecular
                                      level than polyester. Polyester links in long chains but the chains
                                      themselves do not interlink like epoxy does so definitely epoxy will
                                      give a stronger bond no matter what it is applied to.


                                      The point that Payson makes in his build book, is that polyester bonded
                                      well enough in his destruction tests that the outer wood plywood layer
                                      gave way while the poly/glass connection remained intact. Obviously
                                      because plywood is not linked together at the molecular level as
                                      strongly as the resins are. The plywood did not separate at the plywood
                                      glue line but just shredded off in splinters next to the polyester
                                      interface.


                                      My point has been when epoxy costs over 3 times as much as polyester,
                                      then it might be strong enough for me. As mentioned, poly is $32/gal
                                      epoxy $101 to $158/gal where I am. But I will still use epoxy where it's
                                      gluing strength is required, but not for glassing or filleting.


                                      The other issue often mentioned is that polyester is not as waterproof
                                      as epoxy. I guess it to be more waterproof than the plywood and just as
                                      waterproof as most exterior paints I know of. So in a boat mostly dry
                                      stored and not left on the water all season it should last awhile. As
                                      mentioned Payson had some boats over 20 years old and so does Jim. I
                                      have one over 10 years old and a previous one as well and the joints
                                      were solid but the water got in under the plywood where there was no
                                      glass.


                                      But if a builder feels the extra cost in using epoxy instead is felt
                                      warranted then that is the best choice no doubt.

                                      Nels


                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Epoxy bonds well to Polyester but Polyester does not bond to
                                      epoxy. This chemical bnd occurs while the catelatic action is
                                      happening so i guess the chemicals in epoxy are more versitile or
                                      something.
                                      >
                                      > Andrew
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Steven sdantonio93@...
                                      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:41 PM
                                      > Subject: [Michalak] Bolger Afterthoughts - like after Featherwind (Re:
                                      Epoxy Vs: Polyester Resin.)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Â
                                      > Thank you all for the comments.
                                      >
                                      > One last question. How well does epoxy adhere to polyester? I assume
                                      I would glass the bottom before putting on the skids, so I doubt I could
                                      use tightbond III to glue the skids to polyester, which leaves only
                                      epoxy to put them on.
                                      >
                                      > I can only assume glassing over a bottom with three skids would be a
                                      nightmare.
                                      >
                                      > Steven
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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