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Re: [Michalak] Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.

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  • Joseph Stromski
    AF2 is the ancestor of the AF3, and is 4 feet longer, and a half foot wider. http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af2/index.htm Best,Joe
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 18, 2013
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      AF2 is the ancestor of the AF3, and is 4 feet longer, and a half foot wider.
      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af2/index.htm


      Best,Joe


      ________________________________
      From: James Dunn <jimmyodunn@...>
      To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 11:07 PM
      Subject: [Michalak] Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.



       
      I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?

      JD

      Sent from my iPad


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sirdarnell
      How about the Caroline?
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 18, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        How about the Caroline?

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn <jimmyodunn@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?
        >
        > JD
        >
        > Sent from my iPad
        >
      • prairiedog2332
        AF2 was my first thought as well. Caroline would be my preference for small kids. Or Jewelbox for even more space inside as kids get bigger. Even though
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 18, 2013
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          AF2 was my first thought as well. Caroline would be my preference for
          small kids.

          Or Jewelbox for even more space inside as kids get bigger. Even though
          unballasted it should recover from a 90 degree knockdown without
          shipping water and closes up fully when on the trailer. Two features I
          really like.

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>

          Jim warns that the unballasted AF2 may be difficult for one person to
          re-right if it goes over unlike the smaller AF3. So I would think once
          getting to a certain larger hull size having self-righting capability
          would be preferred which means adding ballast and the easiest ballast
          for towing is water. This would include Blobster and perhaps even
          Electron if water ballast takes the place of the batteries. (Sailing rig
          included in the plans.) If you want to go really big there is Jukebox3
          with water ballast and Picara with steel bars or even Caprice which is
          easy to tow as it is surprisingly light.

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm>

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm>

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm>

          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm
          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm>

          Another thing to keep in mind is 2nd-hand boats. You can get some deals
          far better than you can build as they often come with a lot of extra
          equipment including often a trailer, motor, ground tackle, navigation
          equipment etc. This call add up to a lot of money.

          Nels


          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote:
          >
          > How about the Caroline?
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn jimmyodunn@ wrote:
          > >
          > > I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are
          only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade
          sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the
          extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which
          makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal
          water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long
          story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?
          > >
          > > JD
          > >
          > > Sent from my iPad
          > >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • daniel brown
          normsboat is like a big af3 if thats the style and construction (sharpie) preferred. NB has more interior room than electron. it weighs more than twice as much
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 18, 2013
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            normsboat is like a big af3 if thats the style and construction (sharpie) preferred. NB has more interior room than electron. it weighs more than twice as much as af3 but its a lot lighter than most other trailer sailers its size.




            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            From: nelsarv@...
            Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:19:19 +0000
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.





            AF2 was my first thought as well. Caroline would be my preference for
            small kids.

            Or Jewelbox for even more space inside as kids get bigger. Even though
            unballasted it should recover from a 90 degree knockdown without
            shipping water and closes up fully when on the trailer. Two features I
            really like.

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
            <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>

            Jim warns that the unballasted AF2 may be difficult for one person to
            re-right if it goes over unlike the smaller AF3. So I would think once
            getting to a certain larger hull size having self-righting capability
            would be preferred which means adding ballast and the easiest ballast
            for towing is water. This would include Blobster and perhaps even
            Electron if water ballast takes the place of the batteries. (Sailing rig
            included in the plans.) If you want to go really big there is Jukebox3
            with water ballast and Picara with steel bars or even Caprice which is
            easy to tow as it is surprisingly light.

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm
            <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm>

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm
            <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm>

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
            <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm>

            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm
            <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm>

            Another thing to keep in mind is 2nd-hand boats. You can get some deals
            far better than you can build as they often come with a lot of extra
            equipment including often a trailer, motor, ground tackle, navigation
            equipment etc. This call add up to a lot of money.

            Nels

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote:
            >
            > How about the Caroline?
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn jimmyodunn@ wrote:
            > >
            > > I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are
            only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade
            sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the
            extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which
            makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal
            water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long
            story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?
            > >
            > > JD
            > >
            > > Sent from my iPad
            > >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • john colley
            As a comparison.My Hartley ts16 is (duh) 16 feet long,Cabin is 8 long.Ply on timber frames.Weighs 360Kg s (you do the conversion) Except for the Cherry
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 19, 2013
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              As a comparison.My Hartley ts16 is (duh) 16 feet long,Cabin is 8' long.Ply on timber frames.Weighs 360Kg's (you do the conversion) Except for the Cherry 16(stitch and glue) it would have to be the lightest trailersailer around.


               
              "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
              -Sigurd Olson


              ________________________________
              From: daniel brown <dannyb9@...>
              To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <michalak@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, 19 July 2013 3:53 AM
              Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.


              normsboat is like a big af3 if thats the style and construction (sharpie) preferred. NB has more interior room than electron. it weighs more than twice as much as af3 but its a lot lighter than most other trailer sailers its size.




              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              From: nelsarv@...
              Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:19:19 +0000
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.

               



              AF2 was my first thought as well. Caroline would be my preference for
              small kids.

              Or Jewelbox for even more space inside as kids get bigger. Even though
              unballasted it should recover from a 90 degree knockdown without
              shipping water and closes up fully when on the trailer. Two features I
              really like.

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
              <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>

              Jim warns that the unballasted AF2 may be difficult for one person to
              re-right if it goes over unlike the smaller AF3. So I would think once
              getting to a certain larger hull size having self-righting capability
              would be preferred which means adding ballast and the easiest ballast
              for towing is water. This would include Blobster and perhaps even
              Electron if water ballast takes the place of the batteries. (Sailing rig
              included in the plans.) If you want to go really big there is Jukebox3
              with water ballast and Picara with steel bars or even Caprice which is
              easy to tow as it is surprisingly light.

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm
              <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm>

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm
              <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm>

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
              <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm>

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm
              <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm>

              Another thing to keep in mind is 2nd-hand boats. You can get some deals
              far better than you can build as they often come with a lot of extra
              equipment including often a trailer, motor, ground tackle, navigation
              equipment etc. This call add up to a lot of money.

              Nels

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote:
              >
              > How about the Caroline?
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn jimmyodunn@ wrote:
              > >
              > > I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are
              only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade
              sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the
              extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which
              makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal
              water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long
              story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?
              > >
              > > JD
              > >
              > > Sent from my iPad
              > >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                     

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • daniel brown
              good case in point, the 16 hartley weighs almost 200 lbs more than the 18 normsboat. i would bet the ts 16 is faster, it carries a lot of sail for a 16. To:
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 19, 2013
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                good case in point, the 16' hartley weighs almost 200 lbs more than the 18' normsboat. i would bet the ts 16 is faster, it carries a lot of sail for a 16.




                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                From: Helliconia54@...
                Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 01:14:29 -0700
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.





                As a comparison.My Hartley ts16 is (duh) 16 feet long,Cabin is 8' long.Ply on timber frames.Weighs 360Kg's (you do the conversion) Except for the Cherry 16(stitch and glue) it would have to be the lightest trailersailer around.


                "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                -Sigurd Olson

                ________________________________
                From: daniel brown <dannyb9@...>
                To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, 19 July 2013 3:53 AM
                Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.


                normsboat is like a big af3 if thats the style and construction (sharpie) preferred. NB has more interior room than electron. it weighs more than twice as much as af3 but its a lot lighter than most other trailer sailers its size.

                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                From: nelsarv@...
                Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:19:19 +0000
                Subject: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.



                AF2 was my first thought as well. Caroline would be my preference for
                small kids.

                Or Jewelbox for even more space inside as kids get bigger. Even though
                unballasted it should recover from a 90 degree knockdown without
                shipping water and closes up fully when on the trailer. Two features I
                really like.

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>

                Jim warns that the unballasted AF2 may be difficult for one person to
                re-right if it goes over unlike the smaller AF3. So I would think once
                getting to a certain larger hull size having self-righting capability
                would be preferred which means adding ballast and the easiest ballast
                for towing is water. This would include Blobster and perhaps even
                Electron if water ballast takes the place of the batteries. (Sailing rig
                included in the plans.) If you want to go really big there is Jukebox3
                with water ballast and Picara with steel bars or even Caprice which is
                easy to tow as it is surprisingly light.

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm>

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm>

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm>

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm>

                Another thing to keep in mind is 2nd-hand boats. You can get some deals
                far better than you can build as they often come with a lot of extra
                equipment including often a trailer, motor, ground tackle, navigation
                equipment etc. This call add up to a lot of money.

                Nels

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote:
                >
                > How about the Caroline?
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn jimmyodunn@ wrote:
                > >
                > > I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are
                only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade
                sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the
                extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which
                makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal
                water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long
                story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?
                > >
                > > JD
                > >
                > > Sent from my iPad
                > >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Dunn
                All great ideas, thanks everyone. I like the style if my AF3 but I recognize the safety concern with the small ones, doubt I ll be coastal cruising anytime
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 20, 2013
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                  All great ideas, thanks everyone. I like the style if my AF3 but I recognize the safety concern with the small ones, doubt I'll be coastal cruising anytime soon. I like the simplicity of the AF2 build, would love a jewel box style boat but it's a tough sell on the wife not looking very traditional and all.

                  Thanks again,
                  JD

                  Sent from my iPhone
                • prairiedog2332
                  I agree with your wife. JB is pretty darn ugly:-) I disliked it for years and always planned to build a Bolger Birdwatcher instead. But I found it had some
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 20, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I agree with your wife. JB is pretty darn ugly:-) I disliked it for
                    years and always planned to build a Bolger Birdwatcher instead. But I
                    found it had some drawbacks. One being no place to install a motor and
                    that centerboard really broke up the sleeping space inside on a hull of
                    25'. And a really tall mast to deal with.

                    http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm
                    <http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm>

                    Jim built the prototype Birdwatcher and was very pleased with it - yet
                    experienced some of the same drawbacks so thought about how he could
                    improve it. It came out as JB! Room for a family kept safely inside.
                    Self-draining motor well. Shorter mast. Walk off the bow onto dry land.
                    And 6 feet shorter.

                    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
                    <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>

                    I would now consider 2 more mods. Adding a mizzen at the stern and a Vee
                    entry at the bow. And in my wildest imaginings a schooner rig. Scow
                    schooners were extremely popular at one time and this rig would fit
                    perfectly.

                    http://www.instantboats.com/lschooner.htm
                    <http://www.instantboats.com/lschooner.htm>

                    Nels

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn wrote:
                    >
                    > All great ideas, thanks everyone. I like the style if my AF3 but I
                    recognize the safety concern with the small ones, doubt I'll be coastal
                    cruising anytime soon. I like the simplicity of the AF2 build, would
                    love a jewel box style boat but it's a tough sell on the wife not
                    looking very traditional and all.
                    >
                    > Thanks again,
                    > JD
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • joe_mapango
                    Hello Nels. I like your progression and all your comments. I d like to post an alternative bow however. Making a V bow mod at first sounds like a great
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 20, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Nels. I like your progression and all your comments. I'd like to post an alternative bow however. Making a V bow mod at first sounds like a great idea. For motoring it would improve action in a chop, and at anchor it would be a quieter bow. But from a sailing perspective it may not be so nice. Making the bow a V would greatly increase its tendency to pound on a reach or when sailing closer to the wind. I'm really starting to warm to the SA (Of Bolger and friends fame) cutwater. Its easy to build (can be made stich and glue), gives you a longer WL while motoring, limits pound AND you can keep your deep chines when sailing.

                      What is your assessment of Bolger like cutwater(s). And, why don't we see them "out there"?

                      Chris Curtis




                      > years and always planned to build a Bolger Birdwatcher instead. But I
                      > found it had some drawbacks. One being no place to install a motor and
                      > that centerboard really broke up the sleeping space inside on a hull of
                      > 25'. And a really tall mast to deal with.
                      >
                      > http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm
                      > <http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_main.htm>
                      >
                      > Jim built the prototype Birdwatcher and was very pleased with it - yet
                      > experienced some of the same drawbacks so thought about how he could
                      > improve it. It came out as JB! Room for a family kept safely inside.
                      > Self-draining motor well. Shorter mast. Walk off the bow onto dry land.
                      > And 6 feet shorter.
                      >
                      > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
                      > <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>
                      >
                      > I would now consider 2 more mods. Adding a mizzen at the stern and a Vee
                      > entry at the bow. And in my wildest imaginings a schooner rig. Scow
                      > schooners were extremely popular at one time and this rig would fit
                      > perfectly.
                      >
                      > http://www.instantboats.com/lschooner.htm
                      > <http://www.instantboats.com/lschooner.htm>
                      >
                      > Nels
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn wrote:
                      > >
                      > > All great ideas, thanks everyone. I like the style if my AF3 but I
                      > recognize the safety concern with the small ones, doubt I'll be coastal
                      > cruising anytime soon. I like the simplicity of the AF2 build, would
                      > love a jewel box style boat but it's a tough sell on the wife not
                      > looking very traditional and all.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks again,
                      > > JD
                      > >
                      > > Sent from my iPhone
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • prairiedog2332
                      Sorry Chris, not sure which Bolger bow design you are referring to? There are several that I have seen. My thinking is based on what Jim has written about the
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 20, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sorry Chris, not sure which Bolger bow design you are referring to?
                        There are several that I have seen.

                        My thinking is based on what Jim has written about the Petesboat design
                        which has a warped V entry.

                        http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/petesboat/index.htm
                        <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/petesboat/index.htm>

                        "There was much discussion about whether the warped V entry was worth
                        the extra work. Converting to a simple flat bottom entry would be easy.
                        On Twixt I'm quite certain the V is worth the work and Ed Heins praised
                        the V entry on his Tween
                        <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/tween/index.htm> , but perhaps
                        not on these larger boats."

                        So JB is somewhere in between? My main reasoning is personal as where I
                        reside there are long periods where there is not much wind on our lakes
                        in the summer, plus living on a river, so may be worth the extra effort
                        when motoring a lot more often than others may have to.

                        The schooner rig may add some effectiveness when broad reaching in light
                        winds, despite a shorter waterline and offer the option of adding a
                        light poly tarp stay sail shown in the dotted lines here.

                        http://www.instantboats.com/images/lschoonerprof.gif
                        <http://www.instantboats.com/images/lschoonerprof.gif>

                        The Bolger Light Schooner is a great design. But I think the Michalak
                        version of JB would really make it more a family design with a lot of
                        fun options over the standard JB. Just my thinking though.

                        Nels


                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango" wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Nels. I like your progression and all your comments. I'd like
                        to post an alternative bow however. Making a V bow mod at first sounds
                        like a great idea. For motoring it would improve action in a chop, and
                        at anchor it would be a quieter bow. But from a sailing perspective it
                        may not be so nice. Making the bow a V would greatly increase its
                        tendency to pound on a reach or when sailing closer to the wind. I'm
                        really starting to warm to the SA (Of Bolger and friends fame) cutwater.
                        Its easy to build (can be made stich and glue), gives you a longer WL
                        while motoring, limits pound AND you can keep your deep chines when
                        sailing.
                        >
                        > What is your assessment of Bolger like cutwater(s). And, why don't we
                        see them "out there"?
                        >
                        > Chris Curtis




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • john colley
                        Ts16 carries 11.6m,sq main and a 5.2 m,sq jib on a 6.2m mast.I ve been on one in 25Knts wind doing 7Knts.They will plane if conditions are right.I d say that
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 20, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ts16 carries 11.6m,sq main and a 5.2 m,sq jib on a 6.2m mast.I've been on one in 25Knts wind doing 7Knts.They will plane if conditions are right.I'd say that 6Knts is a good average.Shes ^m length and 2.2m beam.Hope this helps to get some ideas of comparisson.



                           
                          "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                          -Sigurd Olson


                          ________________________________
                          From: daniel brown <dannyb9@...>
                          To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, 19 July 2013 8:49 PM
                          Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.


                          good case in point, the 16' hartley weighs almost 200 lbs more than the 18' normsboat. i would bet the ts 16 is faster, it carries a lot of sail for a 16.




                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          From: Helliconia54@...
                          Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 01:14:29 -0700
                          Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.

                           



                          As a comparison.My Hartley ts16 is (duh) 16 feet long,Cabin is 8' long.Ply on timber frames.Weighs 360Kg's (you do the conversion) Except for the Cherry 16(stitch and glue) it would have to be the lightest trailersailer around.


                          "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                          -Sigurd Olson

                          ________________________________
                          From: daniel brown <dannyb9@...>
                          To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, 19 July 2013 3:53 AM
                          Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.


                          normsboat is like a big af3 if thats the style and construction (sharpie) preferred. NB has more interior room than electron. it weighs more than twice as much as af3 but its a lot lighter than most other trailer sailers its size.

                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          From: nelsarv@...
                          Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 17:19:19 +0000
                          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Larger AF3 or an AF4 mod for sail plan.

                           

                          AF2 was my first thought as well. Caroline would be my preference for
                          small kids.

                          Or Jewelbox for even more space inside as kids get bigger. Even though
                          unballasted it should recover from a 90 degree knockdown without
                          shipping water and closes up fully when on the trailer. Two features I
                          really like.

                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm
                          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jewelbox/index.htm>

                          Jim warns that the unballasted AF2 may be difficult for one person to
                          re-right if it goes over unlike the smaller AF3. So I would think once
                          getting to a certain larger hull size having self-righting capability
                          would be preferred which means adding ballast and the easiest ballast
                          for towing is water. This would include Blobster and perhaps even
                          Electron if water ballast takes the place of the batteries. (Sailing rig
                          included in the plans.) If you want to go really big there is Jukebox3
                          with water ballast and Picara with steel bars or even Caprice which is
                          easy to tow as it is surprisingly light.

                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm
                          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/electron/index.htm>

                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm
                          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/jukebox3/index.htm>

                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
                          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm>

                          http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm
                          <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm>

                          Another thing to keep in mind is 2nd-hand boats. You can get some deals
                          far better than you can build as they often come with a lot of extra
                          equipment including often a trailer, motor, ground tackle, navigation
                          equipment etc. This call add up to a lot of money.

                          Nels

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" wrote:
                          >
                          > How about the Caroline?
                          >
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, James Dunn jimmyodunn@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I have an AF3 but it's a tad small for a family of 4. My kids are
                          only 2 so the AF3 is good for now but, I foresee a need for an upgrade
                          sooner than later. I am extremely happy with the AF3 but I long for the
                          extra couple feet of the AF4. I am also partial to the Blobster which
                          makes beaching and my wife's happiness a snap but I like to sail coastal
                          water which the Blobster is a bit iffy when the weather picks up. Long
                          story short, I want a larger AF3, anyone thought about this before?
                          > >
                          > > JD
                          > >
                          > > Sent from my iPad
                          > >
                          >

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mark Albanese
                          I ought to pipe in about a different bow for a boat like my Jewelboxjr. Jim says that probably the smaller your flat bottomed boat, the more it can use the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 21, 2013
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                            I ought to pipe in about a different bow for a boat like my Jewelboxjr. Jim
                            says that probably the smaller your flat bottomed boat, the more it can use
                            the twisted bow. Sage is definitely small enough, I think. If you like to
                            sail more or less upright, on her bottom as Phil Bolger and others say a
                            sharpie should, it can't hurt in any case.

                            I am the rankest sort of amateur of course, but it isn't any pounding that
                            is so bothersome; we do spend an inordinate amount of time caught in the
                            troughs. Have been there both under power and trying to effect a close
                            reach. Lacking a good deal of momentum, quite small trains of waves can
                            just slap her back.

                            The JBjr has the chine scant high enough to add a pretty good vee under the
                            bow, if that would help.

                            I've the plans and meranti for Tween as an experiment.
                            Mark


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Kohnen
                            Bolger s sharpies, and the boats built to his sea of peas theory like Sage, sail best when heeled. Most flat-bottom boats sail best when heeled. Sage likes
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 22, 2013
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                              Bolger's sharpies, and the boats built to his "sea of peas" theory like
                              Sage, sail best when heeled. Most flat-bottom boats sail best when heeled.
                              Sage likes to sail heeled; how do you keep her upright in anything but
                              light breezes? <g> Scows with wide ends, like Puddle Ducks and Gooses,
                              need to be sailed flat to keep the bow transom from rooting, and the stern
                              transom from dragging.

                              On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 02:44:39 -0700, Mark A wrote:

                              > I ought to pipe in about a different bow for a boat like my Jewelboxjr.
                              > Jim
                              > says that probably the smaller your flat bottomed boat, the more it can
                              > use
                              > the twisted bow. Sage is definitely small enough, I think. If you like to
                              > sail more or less upright, on her bottom as Phil Bolger and others say a
                              > sharpie should, it can't hurt in any case.
                              > ...

                              --
                              John (jkohnen@...)
                              It is requisite for the relaxation of the mind that we make use, from time
                              to time, of playful deeds and jokes. (St. Thomas Aquinas)
                            • Mark Albanese
                              Maybe that s my central mistake. (guffaw) However, the heavier the wind, the heavier the seas. Thanks, John. Mark ... [Non-text portions of this message have
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                Maybe that's my central mistake. (guffaw) However, the heavier the wind,
                                the heavier the seas. Thanks, John.
                                Mark
                                On Jul 22, 2013 5:25 PM, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:

                                > Bolger's sharpies, and the boats built to his "sea of peas" theory like
                                > Sage, sail best when heeled. Most flat-bottom boats sail best when heeled.
                                > Sage likes to sail heeled; how do you keep her upright in anything but
                                > light breezes? <g> Scows with wide ends, like Puddle Ducks and Gooses,
                                > need to be sailed flat to keep the bow transom from rooting, and the stern
                                > transom from dragging.
                                >
                                > On Sun, 21 Jul 2013 02:44:39 -0700, Mark A wrote:
                                >
                                > > I ought to pipe in about a different bow for a boat like my Jewelboxjr.
                                > > Jim
                                > > says that probably the smaller your flat bottomed boat, the more it can
                                > > use
                                > > the twisted bow. Sage is definitely small enough, I think. If you like to
                                > > sail more or less upright, on her bottom as Phil Bolger and others say a
                                > > sharpie should, it can't hurt in any case.
                                > > ...
                                >
                                > --
                                > John (jkohnen@...)
                                > It is requisite for the relaxation of the mind that we make use, from time
                                > to time, of playful deeds and jokes. (St. Thomas Aquinas)
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


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                              • prairiedog2332
                                I m thinking the warped V entry might help in the larger Jewelbox when motoring or motor-sailing in very light winds when there is some chop. Or maybe when at
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 23, 2013
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                                  I'm thinking the warped V entry might help in the larger Jewelbox when
                                  motoring or motor-sailing in very light winds when there is some chop.
                                  Or maybe when at anchor or when on the river. Or meeting larger
                                  quartering waves as it would help to part them, sending the spray to the
                                  sides rather than over the bow?

                                  Twister has more or less proven it works well in a motor-sailor type
                                  hull.


                                  It is not a lot of extra work - but maybe it is - and not worth it!

                                  Nels

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Bolger's sharpies, and the boats built to his "sea of peas" theory
                                  like
                                  > Sage, sail best when heeled. Most flat-bottom boats sail best when
                                  heeled.
                                  > Sage likes to sail heeled; how do you keep her upright in anything but
                                  > light breezes? Scows with wide ends, like Puddle Ducks and Gooses,
                                  > need to be sailed flat to keep the bow transom from rooting, and the
                                  stern
                                  > transom from dragging.
                                  >




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