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RE: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?

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  • John Trussell
    There are, of course, many constraints on the size of the boat you build—cost, space, cartop/pu bed/trailer, and what kind of load you want to carry. IMHO,
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 27, 2013
      There are, of course, many constraints on the size of the boat you
      build—cost, space, cartop/pu bed/trailer, and what kind of load you want to
      carry.

      IMHO, an 8 ft boat is a little small for two people to relax in. Once you
      get beyond 8 ft, you are looking at joining 2 length’s of plywood together
      (butt plate/Payson fg butt splice/scarf/finger joints). From a (roughly) 16
      ft plywood panel, you can build a 15 to 15 ½ ft boat (often described as
      being “16”). A 15 ft boat is a much more comfortable proposition for two
      people than a 12 or 14 ft boat. If you wish to build a flat bottomed skiff a
      Mayfly is as good as any and I would build the biggest one that I could
      manage.



      Contemplating the design to choose is one of three worrisome parts of boat
      building. The other two are picking a color scheme and picking a name!



      Have fun.



      JohnT



      _____

      From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Chris
      Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 7:39 AM
      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?





      I would say if you want a light boat that you can cartop or put in a truck
      bed build the Piccup Squared (I move my Piccup Squared around in a truck
      bed). If you plan to trailer either would work.

      If you decide on the Mayfly you might take a look at the Mayfly 16. The 16
      would not be much more work than the 14 and it is a faster more capable
      boat.

      Chris

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      "m1k3_0ynx" <msingle5@...> wrote:
      >
      > I've had the book for a little while now and read it twice (so far.) And
      I'm trying to decide what to build. I completed an Uncle John's Pirogue a
      couple of years ago, so I'm not a complete novice. I did kind of
      "over-build" that one, it came in at a little over 15ft and had 5 frames.
      >
      > I do want a sailboat. I'm on Florida's Nature Coast, so we are talking
      shoal waters. I am somewhat drawn to the Piccup Squared because I intend to
      stick with "nail & glue" construction for this build, and the flat-bottomed
      Piccup greatly resembles the early sailing craft of Florida, the scow.
      Sailing dories were also used in the area, but I've not seen one that would
      do as well as the two above.
      >
      > But looking at the sailboats that would take 2 adults, have a kick-up
      rudder & leeboard, (even a centerboard would be preferable to a dagger board
      for me,) and be transportable in a pick-up with a bed extender, launched
      from a dolly, just maybe the Mayfly 14 could be the one.
      >
      > Both boats I've mentioned should fill the bill, but I kind of suspect the
      Mayfly would be a little more seaworthy. Even the little bays and coves can
      get a little rough when the weather closes in and in FL, that can happen in
      a hurry.
      >
      > I had been considering a couple of the Payson/Bolger designs, especially
      the Surf, but the one's I really liked would have to be modified to include
      the kick-up parts and my preferred sailing rig, a balanced lug. I do like
      the character of those designs though.
      >
      > So, any thoughts, ideas on which way I should go?
      >
      > Mike S.
      > Spring Hill, FL
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • alan enlow
      Mike,     If you can afford it and have a place for it I would suggest looking into a utility trailer. I am in my fifties and it is better than car topping
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 27, 2013
        Mike,
         
          If you can afford it and have a place for it I would suggest looking into a utility trailer. I am in my fifties and it is better than car topping and even the bed of a pickup. It will save your back. you  can't submerge the utility trailer, but you can get right up to the water. Harbor Freight has some cheap ones and some messers use them. Mine is a Carry On brand from TCS
         
         I modified mine  for my PDR.. I took it all the way from central Texas to Illinois and Missouri by way of La and Ar and Miss. You may find you get out more if you don't have to wrestle that monster on and off the roof. Just an Idea..

         
        Alan--- On Thu, 6/27/13, m1k3_0ynx <msingle5@...> wrote:


        From: m1k3_0ynx <msingle5@...>
        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, June 27, 2013, 7:49 AM



         



        Thanks, guys! I guess I may need to re-examine my expectations. If I am going to avoid having to use a trailer, I've really got to watch the weight of the boat, not just the size. Got to admit, I am older than I think!

        Based on the above, Piccup Squared does look like a better idea. Getting a heavier boat into and out of the truck wouldn't be the problem, as you only lift about half the weight of the boat at a time. The problem comes when you have to get it up and down a boat ramp on a dolly. gentle slope, no problem. But some of the ramps are kind of steep.

        I will take a look at that Goose idea, while I'm at it. And, maybe I'll re-visit some of the other designs I've looked at, even though they'd require a certain amount of modification. Mr. Michalak's book covers enough ground to help with that, and I've other resources as well.

        Glad I'm not too locked into anything just yet! But the book is the best investment I've made so far.

        Mike S.
        Spring Hill, FL








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • simonfbroad
        Mayfly 16 also has seats, which the 14 doesn t, so old guys like us don t have to sit on the floor :o)
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 27, 2013
          Mayfly 16 also has seats, which the 14 doesn't, so old guys like us don't have to sit on the floor :o)


          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <chrisbfeller@...> wrote:
          >
          > I would say if you want a light boat that you can cartop or put in a truck bed build the Piccup Squared (I move my Piccup Squared around in a truck bed). If you plan to trailer either would work.
          >
          > If you decide on the Mayfly you might take a look at the Mayfly 16. The 16 would not be much more work than the 14 and it is a faster more capable boat.
          >
          > Chris
          >
        • john colley
          if you want a classic design.Nails and glue? give Heidi a look at.12 long,sail or row.  
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
            if you want a classic design.Nails and glue? give Heidi a look at.12' long,sail or row.   http://www.flickr.com/photos/nomadboatbuilding/7844692616/in/set-72157631207839384/%c2%a0 or  http://dartrac.customer.netspace.net.au/boats/skiff.html%c2%a0


             
            "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
            -Sigurd Olson


            ________________________________
            From: m1k3_0ynx <msingle5@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013 4:09 AM
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?



             
            I really appreciate all the comments! It keeps me thinking.

            I'm going to try very hard to keep away from using a trailer, but I do know they are getting kind of easy to find, if need be. I had decided not to buy one, but when I found an old 12" Craftsman band saw on Craig's List for $40. . . I grabbed it!

            No doubt in my mind that Mayfly 16 would require a trailer. The 14' version would probably work well for me as far as sailing goes, it's just launching her from a dolly could be a problem on some of the ramps I'd be using.

            The weight issue aside, I'd say that 16' would be about the longest boat I'd want to transport on my bed extension. The 15'+ pirogue made me a little nervous, I had to make certain to weight down the end in the truck as the bed length wide the tail gate down is only 7 feet. And that's one reason the longer the boat, the better off I'd be with a flat transom instead of a double-ender. The double-ended boat would be do-able, but I'd have to keep the balance thing in mind. (Also, I hate it when driving and the front end of the truck wants to lift!)

            I would like to stay with "nail & glue," for now. I can get long lumber from the local cypress mill, so no scarfing would be required for the chines.

            Kind of wish the Piccup Squared was available as a 14' design. Again, I'm thinking of the fact that the sailing scow is a traditional boat for the Gulf Coast of FL. Earlier, I mentioned that the dory was also, I got that wrong. The other traditional FL boat was actually a type of sailing sharpie.

            As far as the Goose goes, it does look pretty good. But the only plans I saw on the Goose Group seemed to be a mod plan on the Oz web site. You needed the original OZ version of the PDR and the mod plan. No problem with that, but it that the only source for the Goose variant of the PDR?

            I'm glad I have another build to do first, this sailboat design is going to take a lot more thinking!

            Mike S.
            Spring Hill, FL




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Trussell
            There are many flat bottomed skiff designs available. Traditionally, these skiffs involved lapstrake sides and cross planked bottoms, all using natural wood.
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
              There are many flat bottomed skiff designs available. Traditionally, these
              skiffs involved lapstrake sides and cross planked bottoms, all using
              "natural wood. These boats were designed with the expectation that the boat
              would stay in the water and that the bottom planking would swell or "take
              up", making the boat water tight. Unfortunately, when such boats live on a
              trailer, they dry out and the planking shrinks. Such boats leak badly when
              they are placed in the water. There is a temptation to simply replace the
              bottom planking with plywood. However, plywood is much more flexible that
              the natural wood it replaces and I am of the opinion that a flat bottomed
              boat with a plywood bottom needs more framing than the equivalent cross
              planked boat. Michalak accomplishes this with bulkheads.



              For a modern interpretation of Heidi or Culler's Good Little Skiff, take a
              look at Michalaks Seal Cove Skiff-nail and glue construction with three
              intermediate frames. I suspect that if you asked, Jim would draw up a sail
              rig or you could take the leeboards, rudder, and sail from a Mayfly 12 and
              add it to the Seal Cove.



              JohnT



              _____

              From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of john colley
              Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:52 AM
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?





              if you want a classic design.Nails and glue? give Heidi a look at.12'
              long,sail or row.
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/nomadboatbuilding/7844692616/in/set-72157631207
              839384/ or http://dartrac.customer.netspace.net.au/boats/skiff.html


              "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic
              compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
              -Sigurd Olson

              ________________________________
              From: m1k3_0ynx <msingle5@...
              <mailto:msingle5%40tampabay.rr.com> >
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013 4:09 AM
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?



              I really appreciate all the comments! It keeps me thinking.

              I'm going to try very hard to keep away from using a trailer, but I do know
              they are getting kind of easy to find, if need be. I had decided not to buy
              one, but when I found an old 12" Craftsman band saw on Craig's List for $40.
              . . I grabbed it!

              No doubt in my mind that Mayfly 16 would require a trailer. The 14' version
              would probably work well for me as far as sailing goes, it's just launching
              her from a dolly could be a problem on some of the ramps I'd be using.

              The weight issue aside, I'd say that 16' would be about the longest boat I'd
              want to transport on my bed extension. The 15'+ pirogue made me a little
              nervous, I had to make certain to weight down the end in the truck as the
              bed length wide the tail gate down is only 7 feet. And that's one reason the
              longer the boat, the better off I'd be with a flat transom instead of a
              double-ender. The double-ended boat would be do-able, but I'd have to keep
              the balance thing in mind. (Also, I hate it when driving and the front end
              of the truck wants to lift!)

              I would like to stay with "nail & glue," for now. I can get long lumber from
              the local cypress mill, so no scarfing would be required for the chines.

              Kind of wish the Piccup Squared was available as a 14' design. Again, I'm
              thinking of the fact that the sailing scow is a traditional boat for the
              Gulf Coast of FL. Earlier, I mentioned that the dory was also, I got that
              wrong. The other traditional FL boat was actually a type of sailing sharpie.

              As far as the Goose goes, it does look pretty good. But the only plans I saw
              on the Goose Group seemed to be a mod plan on the Oz web site. You needed
              the original OZ version of the PDR and the mod plan. No problem with that,
              but it that the only source for the Goose variant of the PDR?

              I'm glad I have another build to do first, this sailboat design is going to
              take a lot more thinking!

              Mike S.
              Spring Hill, FL

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • prairiedog2332
              In my view there is a heck of a lot of difference between an 8 boat and a 12 er of the same beam and pram/scow shape. And a 14 with pointy bow is not much
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                In my view there is a heck of a lot of difference between an 8' boat and
                a 12'er of the same beam and pram/scow shape. And a 14 with pointy bow
                is not much bigger but has more flotation and lifting ability in the bow
                section when meeting waves, motorboat wakes, and when sailing downwind.

                Once you go to 16' you are getting into something that is much more of a
                handful especially if planning to solo a lot. First I think due to the
                bigger foils, you might want to add a mizzen for balance tweaking,
                reefing, heaving to etc. If you ever capsize or swamp you are dealing
                with more weight of water inside than perhaps one person can re-right
                standing on the leeboard. And for sure don't enclose those benches or it
                will probably remain up-side down.

                A 12 footer should carry 3 adults or 2 adults and 2 kids with not
                problem and a 14 - 4 adults. If going to 16' I think you may as well add
                a slot-top cuddy with room to store a porta-potty and cooler since you
                need a trailer anyway. Why an AF3 weighs 100 lb less than a Mayfly 16 is
                beyond me. Jim must be figuring different types of plywood.

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm>


                Then you have Mik Storer's GIS at 16' which he claims weighs 125 lb if
                using Gaboon (Okoume) Ply.


                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/storer/gis/index.htm
                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/storer/gis/index.htm>


                One thing different with the GIS design is the flotation chambers are
                lower down at each end and double as seats. Then an additional open
                framed thwart amidships for sitting. This is the same as the 12'
                aluminum skiff I have and gives a lot more interior space without the
                decks at each end. But the sides are also deeper than the Mayfly and
                also likely a wetter boat in big waves. Mik has the mizzen option as
                well but I am not a fan of daggerboards in shallow water for reasons I
                will not go into.

                A GIS with Jim's leeboard and rudder design?

                Nels



                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" wrote:
                >
                > There are, of course, many constraints on the size of the boat you
                > build—cost, space, cartop/pu bed/trailer, and what kind of load
                you want to
                > carry.
                >
                > IMHO, an 8 ft boat is a little small for two people to relax in. Once
                you
                > get beyond 8 ft, you are looking at joining 2 length's of plywood
                together
                > (butt plate/Payson fg butt splice/scarf/finger joints). From a
                (roughly) 16
                > ft plywood panel, you can build a 15 to 15 ½ ft boat (often
                described as
                > being "16"). A 15 ft boat is a much more comfortable
                proposition for two
                > people than a 12 or 14 ft boat. If you wish to build a flat bottomed
                skiff a
                > Mayfly is as good as any and I would build the biggest one that I
                could
                > manage.
                >
                >
                >
                > Contemplating the design to choose is one of three worrisome parts of
                boat
                > building. The other two are picking a color scheme and picking a name!
                >
                >
                >
                > Have fun.
                >
                >
                >
                > JohnT




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • prairiedog2332
                Realistically if you want to get lightness in a small dinghy you have to get familiar with stitch and tape multi-chine boat-building. And use marine-grade
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                  Realistically if you want to get lightness in a small dinghy you have to
                  get familiar with stitch and tape multi-chine boat-building. And use
                  marine-grade plywood like Mik suggests. Or at least test any cheaper
                  stuff first.

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mixer/index.htm
                  <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mixer/index.htm>

                  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/wooboto/index.htm
                  <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/wooboto/index.htm>

                  Nels

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                  >
                  > In my view there is a heck of a lot of difference between an 8' boat
                  and
                  > a 12'er of the same beam and pram/scow shape.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • daniel brown
                  i also struggle with the light weight- exotic ply issue. i m trying some sureply 3/16 on a canoe using stitch and glue, sort of. also dont forget skin on
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                    i also struggle with the light weight- exotic ply issue. i'm trying some sureply 3/16 on a canoe using stitch and glue, sort of. also dont forget skin on frame, there are some interesting canoes, kayaks, and dinghys being built using skin on frame. see the new duckworks for a neat looking 10" dinghy

                    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/13/splash/jul/index.htm




                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    From: nelsarv@...
                    Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 15:15:04 +0000
                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?





                    Realistically if you want to get lightness in a small dinghy you have to
                    get familiar with stitch and tape multi-chine boat-building. And use
                    marine-grade plywood like Mik suggests. Or at least test any cheaper
                    stuff first.

                    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mixer/index.htm
                    <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mixer/index.htm>

                    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/wooboto/index.htm
                    <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/wooboto/index.htm>

                    Nels

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                    >
                    > In my view there is a heck of a lot of difference between an 8' boat
                    and
                    > a 12'er of the same beam and pram/scow shape.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John Trussell
                    My thoughts on boat size stem from the available floor space in different sized boats. Most 8 ft boats have the buoyancy to carry at least two people, but,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                      My thoughts on boat size stem from the available floor space in different
                      sized boats. Most 8 ft boats have the buoyancy to carry at least two people,
                      but, particularly with decks on either end, they will be sitting on top of
                      each other. Moving around the boat will be a hassle and sailors frequently
                      find it useful to shift crew weight. A 12 ft pram obviously has 50 per cent
                      more floor space than an 8 footer and about as much space as a 14 or 15 foot
                      boat with a pointed end.



                      One way to guesstimate how much a finished boat will weigh is to determine
                      how many sheets of plywood it will use. A lot of shorter boats use up the
                      same number of sheets as longer boats. If you’re going to use 4 sheets of
                      plywood and join two sheets together, I think it makes sense to build the
                      biggest boat you can manage.



                      If it matters, flat bottomed boats, while simple to build, generally weigh
                      more than comparable round bottomed boats and generally don’t use quite as
                      much material. Flat bottomed boats tend to have more initial stability and
                      are easier to run up on a beach.



                      My first sailboat (40 some odd years ago) was a Boston Whaler Squall (9 ½ ft
                      pram) and I used to car top it! I was a lot younger then (G). I am currently
                      building a Scamp (12 ft pram) which I will trailer. There is some symmetry
                      there…



                      Look around and pick whichever boat design you like. And have fun.



                      JohnT



                      _____

                      From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of prairiedog2332
                      Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 10:53 AM
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?





                      In my view there is a heck of a lot of difference between an 8' boat and
                      a 12'er of the same beam and pram/scow shape. And a 14 with pointy bow
                      is not much bigger but has more flotation and lifting ability in the bow
                      section when meeting waves, motorboat wakes, and when sailing downwind.

                      Once you go to 16' you are getting into something that is much more of a
                      handful especially if planning to solo a lot. First I think due to the
                      bigger foils, you might want to add a mizzen for balance tweaking,
                      reefing, heaving to etc. If you ever capsize or swamp you are dealing
                      with more weight of water inside than perhaps one person can re-right
                      standing on the leeboard. And for sure don't enclose those benches or it
                      will probably remain up-side down.

                      A 12 footer should carry 3 adults or 2 adults and 2 kids with not
                      problem and a 14 - 4 adults. If going to 16' I think you may as well add
                      a slot-top cuddy with room to store a porta-potty and cooler since you
                      need a trailer anyway. Why an AF3 weighs 100 lb less than a Mayfly 16 is
                      beyond me. Jim must be figuring different types of plywood.

                      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm
                      <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm>

                      Then you have Mik Storer's GIS at 16' which he claims weighs 125 lb if
                      using Gaboon (Okoume) Ply.

                      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/storer/gis/index.htm
                      <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/storer/gis/index.htm>

                      One thing different with the GIS design is the flotation chambers are
                      lower down at each end and double as seats. Then an additional open
                      framed thwart amidships for sitting. This is the same as the 12'
                      aluminum skiff I have and gives a lot more interior space without the
                      decks at each end. But the sides are also deeper than the Mayfly and
                      also likely a wetter boat in big waves. Mik has the mizzen option as
                      well but I am not a fan of daggerboards in shallow water for reasons I
                      will not go into.

                      A GIS with Jim's leeboard and rudder design?

                      Nels

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , "John
                      Trussell" wrote:
                      >
                      > There are, of course, many constraints on the size of the boat you
                      > build—cost, space, cartop/pu bed/trailer, and what kind of load
                      you want to
                      > carry.
                      >
                      > IMHO, an 8 ft boat is a little small for two people to relax in. Once
                      you
                      > get beyond 8 ft, you are looking at joining 2 length's of plywood
                      together
                      > (butt plate/Payson fg butt splice/scarf/finger joints). From a
                      (roughly) 16
                      > ft plywood panel, you can build a 15 to 15 ½ ft boat (often
                      described as
                      > being "16"). A 15 ft boat is a much more comfortable
                      proposition for two
                      > people than a 12 or 14 ft boat. If you wish to build a flat bottomed
                      skiff a
                      > Mayfly is as good as any and I would build the biggest one that I
                      could
                      > manage.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Contemplating the design to choose is one of three worrisome parts of
                      boat
                      > building. The other two are picking a color scheme and picking a name!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Have fun.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > JohnT

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • tosailok
                      Michalac Has a design Called Bookie that is basicly a 14ft Piccup Squared. The plans are in the back of his self published book The Seceret Guide to Plywood
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                        Michalac Has a design Called Bookie that is basicly a 14ft Piccup Squared. The plans are in the back of his self published book The Seceret Guide to Plywood Boat Design. Built to specs it should be a little lighter than Mayfly 14.

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "m1k3_0ynx" <msingle5@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I really appreciate all the comments! It keeps me thinking.
                        >
                        > I'm going to try very hard to keep away from using a trailer, but I do know they are getting kind of easy to find, if need be. I had decided not to buy one, but when I found an old 12" Craftsman band saw on Craig's List for $40. . . I grabbed it!
                        >
                        > No doubt in my mind that Mayfly 16 would require a trailer. The 14' version would probably work well for me as far as sailing goes, it's just launching her from a dolly could be a problem on some of the ramps I'd be using.
                        >
                        > The weight issue aside, I'd say that 16' would be about the longest boat I'd want to transport on my bed extension. The 15'+ pirogue made me a little nervous, I had to make certain to weight down the end in the truck as the bed length wide the tail gate down is only 7 feet. And that's one reason the longer the boat, the better off I'd be with a flat transom instead of a double-ender. The double-ended boat would be do-able, but I'd have to keep the balance thing in mind. (Also, I hate it when driving and the front end of the truck wants to lift!)
                        >
                        > I would like to stay with "nail & glue," for now. I can get long lumber from the local cypress mill, so no scarfing would be required for the chines.
                        >
                        > Kind of wish the Piccup Squared was available as a 14' design. Again, I'm thinking of the fact that the sailing scow is a traditional boat for the Gulf Coast of FL. Earlier, I mentioned that the dory was also, I got that wrong. The other traditional FL boat was actually a type of sailing sharpie.
                        >
                        > As far as the Goose goes, it does look pretty good. But the only plans I saw on the Goose Group seemed to be a mod plan on the Oz web site. You needed the original OZ version of the PDR and the mod plan. No problem with that, but it that the only source for the Goose variant of the PDR?
                        >
                        > I'm glad I have another build to do first, this sailboat design is going to take a lot more thinking!
                        >
                        > Mike S.
                        > Spring Hill, FL
                        >
                      • Frank
                        Another consideration is the Mayfly 12. Frank Coletta ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                          Another consideration is the Mayfly 12.

                          Frank Coletta

                          On Jun 27, 2013, at 2:09 PM, "m1k3_0ynx" <msingle5@...> wrote:

                          > I really appreciate all the comments! It keeps me thinking.
                          >
                          > I'm going to try very hard to keep away from using a trailer, but I do know they are getting kind of easy to find, if need be. I had decided not to buy one, but when I found an old 12" Craftsman band saw on Craig's List for $40. . . I grabbed it!
                          >
                          > No doubt in my mind that Mayfly 16 would require a trailer. The 14' version would probably work well for me as far as sailing goes, it's just launching her from a dolly could be a problem on some of the ramps I'd be using.
                          >
                          > The weight issue aside, I'd say that 16' would be about the longest boat I'd want to transport on my bed extension. The 15'+ pirogue made me a little nervous, I had to make certain to weight down the end in the truck as the bed length wide the tail gate down is only 7 feet. And that's one reason the longer the boat, the better off I'd be with a flat transom instead of a double-ender. The double-ended boat would be do-able, but I'd have to keep the balance thing in mind. (Also, I hate it when driving and the front end of the truck wants to lift!)
                          >
                          > I would like to stay with "nail & glue," for now. I can get long lumber from the local cypress mill, so no scarfing would be required for the chines.
                          >
                          > Kind of wish the Piccup Squared was available as a 14' design. Again, I'm thinking of the fact that the sailing scow is a traditional boat for the Gulf Coast of FL. Earlier, I mentioned that the dory was also, I got that wrong. The other traditional FL boat was actually a type of sailing sharpie.
                          >
                          > As far as the Goose goes, it does look pretty good. But the only plans I saw on the Goose Group seemed to be a mod plan on the Oz web site. You needed the original OZ version of the PDR and the mod plan. No problem with that, but it that the only source for the Goose variant of the PDR?
                          >
                          > I'm glad I have another build to do first, this sailboat design is going to take a lot more thinking!
                          >
                          > Mike S.
                          > Spring Hill, FL
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • john colley
                          As the book explains,There are two options for Heidi s bottom.IF its to be left floating,use cross planking,If to be car topped or left on the hard,then use
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 28, 2013
                            As the book explains,There are two options for Heidi's bottom.IF its to be left floating,use cross planking,If to be car topped or left on the hard,then use the plywood.At the end of the book,regarding crossplanked bottom,they advice swamping it for a longwhile to allow the timbers to swell and seal.I'm going to build this,but using marine ply strakes instead of the half inch cedar recommended.Again,the links showed one being totally glued together.I'm going with copper rivets.I've "done ply skin on frame,and stitch and glue.This at 59 will be my heirloom boat,,,LOL and to take to wooden boat fests.


                             
                            "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                            -Sigurd Olson


                            ________________________________
                            From: John Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013 9:50 PM
                            Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?



                             
                            There are many flat bottomed skiff designs available. Traditionally, these
                            skiffs involved lapstrake sides and cross planked bottoms, all using
                            "natural wood. These boats were designed with the expectation that the boat
                            would stay in the water and that the bottom planking would swell or "take
                            up", making the boat water tight. Unfortunately, when such boats live on a
                            trailer, they dry out and the planking shrinks. Such boats leak badly when
                            they are placed in the water. There is a temptation to simply replace the
                            bottom planking with plywood. However, plywood is much more flexible that
                            the natural wood it replaces and I am of the opinion that a flat bottomed
                            boat with a plywood bottom needs more framing than the equivalent cross
                            planked boat. Michalak accomplishes this with bulkheads.

                            For a modern interpretation of Heidi or Culler's Good Little Skiff, take a
                            look at Michalaks Seal Cove Skiff-nail and glue construction with three
                            intermediate frames. I suspect that if you asked, Jim would draw up a sail
                            rig or you could take the leeboards, rudder, and sail from a Mayfly 12 and
                            add it to the Seal Cove.

                            JohnT

                            _____

                            From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of john colley
                            Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 3:52 AM
                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?

                            if you want a classic design.Nails and glue? give Heidi a look at.12'
                            long,sail or row.
                            http://www.flickr.com/photos/nomadboatbuilding/7844692616/in/set-72157631207
                            839384/ or http://dartrac.customer.netspace.net.au/boats/skiff.html

                            "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic
                            compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                            -Sigurd Olson

                            ________________________________
                            From: m1k3_0ynx <msingle5@...
                            <mailto:msingle5%40tampabay.rr.com> >
                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013 4:09 AM
                            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?

                            I really appreciate all the comments! It keeps me thinking.

                            I'm going to try very hard to keep away from using a trailer, but I do know
                            they are getting kind of easy to find, if need be. I had decided not to buy
                            one, but when I found an old 12" Craftsman band saw on Craig's List for $40.
                            . . I grabbed it!

                            No doubt in my mind that Mayfly 16 would require a trailer. The 14' version
                            would probably work well for me as far as sailing goes, it's just launching
                            her from a dolly could be a problem on some of the ramps I'd be using.

                            The weight issue aside, I'd say that 16' would be about the longest boat I'd
                            want to transport on my bed extension. The 15'+ pirogue made me a little
                            nervous, I had to make certain to weight down the end in the truck as the
                            bed length wide the tail gate down is only 7 feet. And that's one reason the
                            longer the boat, the better off I'd be with a flat transom instead of a
                            double-ender. The double-ended boat would be do-able, but I'd have to keep
                            the balance thing in mind. (Also, I hate it when driving and the front end
                            of the truck wants to lift!)

                            I would like to stay with "nail & glue," for now. I can get long lumber from
                            the local cypress mill, so no scarfing would be required for the chines.

                            Kind of wish the Piccup Squared was available as a 14' design. Again, I'm
                            thinking of the fact that the sailing scow is a traditional boat for the
                            Gulf Coast of FL. Earlier, I mentioned that the dory was also, I got that
                            wrong. The other traditional FL boat was actually a type of sailing sharpie.

                            As far as the Goose goes, it does look pretty good. But the only plans I saw
                            on the Goose Group seemed to be a mod plan on the Oz web site. You needed
                            the original OZ version of the PDR and the mod plan. No problem with that,
                            but it that the only source for the Goose variant of the PDR?

                            I'm glad I have another build to do first, this sailboat design is going to
                            take a lot more thinking!

                            Mike S.
                            Spring Hill, FL

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tom Barclay
                            Yes, what about the Mayfly 16? I notice that relatively little mention in this group is made of the Mayfly 16. For the taller and heavier (!!!) among us, it
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 29, 2013
                              Yes, what about the Mayfly 16?

                              I notice that relatively little mention in this group is made of the Mayfly
                              16. For the taller and heavier (!!!) among us, it seems like a good choice
                              for a second build, after something simpler to get used to Jim's materials
                              and methods.

                              What factors argue against Mayfly 16 for you? More boat than you need? More
                              trouble to transport? More cost of materials? Something else entirely?

                              Tom


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • prairiedog2332
                              Tom, There are photos of a Mayfly 16 in Jim s latest newsletter. http://jimsboats.com/ There may well be more of them out there and
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 29, 2013
                                Tom,
                                There are photos of a Mayfly 16 in Jim's latest newsletter.

                                http://jimsboats.com/ <http://jimsboats.com/>

                                There may well be more of them out there and never get the builds
                                mentioned in this group. I am only surmising but perhaps the weight
                                throws some people off, if older and planning to solo quite often. As I
                                mentioned an AF3 is 100 lb lighter and has a cuddy that will match up
                                well with a small Bimini. And getting some sun/UV protection is
                                considered important these days. The AF3 has proven itself well in
                                knockdown recovery if the cuddy is closed up, shipping little water.

                                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm
                                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm>

                                It and the AF4 Breve may be attractive for older folks when out fishing
                                or just lazing around, compared to a completely open hull for those
                                reasons and also the option of taking a porta-potti and have lock-up
                                security for it and a cooler.

                                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af4/breve/index.htm
                                <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af4/breve/index.htm>


                                Rene Vidmer designed a Bimini that doubles as a spray hood when folded
                                forward to the cuddy bulkhead, but I don't have the details how that is
                                done. But like I said I am just surmising. Many may still prefer an
                                open hull.

                                Nels


                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Tom Barclay wrote:
                                >
                                > Yes, what about the Mayfly 16?
                                >
                                > I notice that relatively little mention in this group is made of the
                                Mayfly
                                > 16. For the taller and heavier (!!!) among us, it seems like a good
                                choice
                                > for a second build, after something simpler to get used to Jim's
                                materials
                                > and methods.
                                >
                                > What factors argue against Mayfly 16 for you? More boat than you need?
                                More
                                > trouble to transport? More cost of materials? Something else entirely?
                                >
                                > Tom
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John Kohnen
                                The 350 lb. Jim lists for the Mayfly 16 ain t nothing, especially for such a roomy, comfortable looking boat. Nobody s gonna try to cartop a Mayfly 16, and 350
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 29, 2013
                                  The 350 lb. Jim lists for the Mayfly 16 ain't nothing, especially for such
                                  a roomy, comfortable looking boat. Nobody's gonna try to cartop a Mayfly
                                  16, and 350 lbs. on a trailer is gonna be awfully easy to handle. The rig
                                  for the Mayfly 16 looks easy enough to handle too, without a tall, heavy
                                  mast. In fact, Mayfly 16 looks like it'd be a great "geezer boat." <g>

                                  350 lbs. is pretty light, but even so, properly setting up the trailer
                                  will make getting a Mayfly 16 on and off the trailer easier. I've had a
                                  couple of flat-bottom boats that came with trailers the previous owners
                                  had set up with lengthwise bunks, matching the curvature of the bottom.
                                  That setup works great. Rig up some side bunks, or something similar to
                                  help guide the boat onto the trailer and loading and unloading will be a
                                  snap. :o) With the longitudinal bunks, side bunks, and an extending
                                  tongue, launching and retrieving my 1,500 lb. motorboat is easy as can be.
                                  :o)

                                  On Sat, 29 Jun 2013 17:31:14 -0700, Nels wrote:

                                  > Tom,
                                  > There are photos of a Mayfly 16 in Jim's latest newsletter.
                                  >
                                  > http://jimsboats.com/ <http://jimsboats.com/>
                                  >
                                  > There may well be more of them out there and never get the builds
                                  > mentioned in this group. I am only surmising but perhaps the weight
                                  > throws some people off, if older and planning to solo quite often.
                                  > ...

                                  --
                                  John (jkohnen@...)
                                  Man does not live by words alone, despite the fact that he sometimes has
                                  to eat them. (Adlai Stevenson)
                                • john colley
                                  we have nothing like messabouts here in ozz .I m envious of you all   There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 30, 2013
                                    we have nothing like messabouts here in ozz .I'm envious of you all



                                     
                                    "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                    -Sigurd Olson


                                    ________________________________
                                    From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, 30 June 2013 10:31 AM
                                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?



                                     
                                    Tom,
                                    There are photos of a Mayfly 16 in Jim's latest newsletter.

                                    http://jimsboats.com/ <http://jimsboats.com/>

                                    There may well be more of them out there and never get the builds
                                    mentioned in this group. I am only surmising but perhaps the weight
                                    throws some people off, if older and planning to solo quite often. As I
                                    mentioned an AF3 is 100 lb lighter and has a cuddy that will match up
                                    well with a small Bimini. And getting some sun/UV protection is
                                    considered important these days. The AF3 has proven itself well in
                                    knockdown recovery if the cuddy is closed up, shipping little water.

                                    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm
                                    <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm>

                                    It and the AF4 Breve may be attractive for older folks when out fishing
                                    or just lazing around, compared to a completely open hull for those
                                    reasons and also the option of taking a porta-potti and have lock-up
                                    security for it and a cooler.

                                    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af4/breve/index.htm
                                    <http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af4/breve/index.htm>

                                    Rene Vidmer designed a Bimini that doubles as a spray hood when folded
                                    forward to the cuddy bulkhead, but I don't have the details how that is
                                    done. But like I said I am just surmising. Many may still prefer an
                                    open hull.

                                    Nels

                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Tom Barclay wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, what about the Mayfly 16?
                                    >
                                    > I notice that relatively little mention in this group is made of the
                                    Mayfly
                                    > 16. For the taller and heavier (!!!) among us, it seems like a good
                                    choice
                                    > for a second build, after something simpler to get used to Jim's
                                    materials
                                    > and methods.
                                    >
                                    > What factors argue against Mayfly 16 for you? More boat than you need?
                                    More
                                    > trouble to transport? More cost of materials? Something else entirely?
                                    >
                                    > Tom
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • simonfbroad
                                    ... John, That has always bugged me too - hoping to meet a few of you guys somewhere sometime so you can teach me how to sail :o) Doh! Found out this weekend
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 30, 2013
                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > we have nothing like messabouts here in ozz .I'm envious of you all
                                      >
                                      >

                                      John,

                                      That has always bugged me too - hoping to meet a few of you guys somewhere sometime so you can teach me how to sail :o)

                                      Doh!
                                      Found out this weekend that the Wooden Boat Association of Queensland had a messabout just up the road (Maroochydore) - last weekend!

                                      But there is another one at Cabbage Tree Creek in July. Seems they have several in a year.

                                      http://www.woodenboat.org.au/index.php/queensland

                                      Simon.
                                    • john colley
                                      hmmm i m going to google wooden boats in victoria.We have plenty of lakes.   There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 1, 2013
                                        hmmm i'm going to google wooden boats in victoria.We have plenty of lakes.


                                         
                                        "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                        -Sigurd Olson


                                        ________________________________
                                        From: simonfbroad <simonfbroad@...>
                                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Monday, 1 July 2013 1:08 PM
                                        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?



                                         


                                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > we have nothing like messabouts here in ozz .I'm envious of you all
                                        >
                                        >

                                        John,

                                        That has always bugged me too - hoping to meet a few of you guys somewhere sometime so you can teach me how to sail :o)

                                        Doh!
                                        Found out this weekend that the Wooden Boat Association of Queensland had a messabout just up the road (Maroochydore) - last weekend!

                                        But there is another one at Cabbage Tree Creek in July. Seems they have several in a year.

                                        http://www.woodenboat.org.au/index.php/queensland

                                        Simon.




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • simonfbroad
                                        Looks like they are more active in the first half of the year.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 1, 2013
                                          Looks like they are more active in the first half of the year.

                                          http://www.woodenboat.asn.au/index.php?option=com_jevents&view=year&task=year.listevents&Itemid=108


                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > hmmm i'm going to google wooden boats in victoria.We have plenty of lakes.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                          > -Sigurd Olson
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: simonfbroad <simonfbroad@...>
                                          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, 1 July 2013 1:08 PM
                                          > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > we have nothing like messabouts here in ozz .I'm envious of you all
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > John,
                                          >
                                          > That has always bugged me too - hoping to meet a few of you guys somewhere sometime so you can teach me how to sail :o)
                                          >
                                          > Doh!
                                          > Found out this weekend that the Wooden Boat Association of Queensland had a messabout just up the road (Maroochydore) - last weekend!
                                          >
                                          > But there is another one at Cabbage Tree Creek in July. Seems they have several in a year.
                                          >
                                          > http://www.woodenboat.org.au/index.php/queensland
                                          >
                                          > Simon.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • john colley
                                          beat me to it thanx for that,i bookmarked it.   There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 2, 2013
                                            beat me to it thanx for that,i bookmarked it.


                                             
                                            "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                            -Sigurd Olson


                                            ________________________________
                                            From: simonfbroad <simonfbroad@...>
                                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, 2 July 2013 9:36 AM
                                            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?



                                             
                                            Looks like they are more active in the first half of the year.

                                            http://www.woodenboat.asn.au/index.php?option=com_jevents&view=year&task=year.listevents&Itemid=108

                                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > hmmm i'm going to google wooden boats in victoria.We have plenty of lakes.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                            > -Sigurd Olson
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ________________________________
                                            > From: simonfbroad <simonfbroad@...>
                                            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Monday, 1 July 2013 1:08 PM
                                            > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mayfly 14, Piccup Squared, or ?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >  
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > we have nothing like messabouts here in ozz .I'm envious of you all
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > John,
                                            >
                                            > That has always bugged me too - hoping to meet a few of you guys somewhere sometime so you can teach me how to sail :o)
                                            >
                                            > Doh!
                                            > Found out this weekend that the Wooden Boat Association of Queensland had a messabout just up the road (Maroochydore) - last weekend!
                                            >
                                            > But there is another one at Cabbage Tree Creek in July. Seems they have several in a year.
                                            >
                                            > http://www.woodenboat.org.au/index.php/queensland
                                            >
                                            > Simon.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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