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Help with MAYFLY 14 Build

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  • shooter1941
    Looking for some advice. I just bought the plans for JM s Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2 plywood for the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has
    Message 1 of 14 , May 29, 2013
      Looking for some advice.
      I just bought the plans for JM's Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2" plywood for the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has 3/8" in stock. Would 3/8" suffice for the bottom as a substitute for the 1/2"?
      The plywood I am using is Meranti Hydrotech.
      Any thoughts/advice with this would be very much appreciated.
      Thank you
      Colin
    • Joseph Stromski
      My opinion is that 3/8 would work fine. You ll lose some of the ballast effect that the heavier ply provides, but from a strength standpoint it should be fine.
      Message 2 of 14 , May 29, 2013
        My opinion is that 3/8 would work fine. You'll lose some of the ballast effect
        that the heavier ply provides, but from a strength standpoint it should be fine.
        I'd recommend strakes or runners on the bottom to stiffen it and prevent
        oil-canning. Does your supplier have 1/2 MDO? That's a well-proven, high quality
        material that could stand in for the meranti easily.

        Best,
        Joe



        ________________________________
        From: shooter1941 <cbuxton41@...>
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, May 29, 2013 9:28:17 AM
        Subject: [Michalak] Help with MAYFLY 14 Build


        Looking for some advice.
        I just bought the plans for JM's Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2" plywood for
        the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has 3/8" in stock. Would 3/8"
        suffice for the bottom as a substitute for the 1/2"?
        The plywood I am using is Meranti Hydrotech.
        Any thoughts/advice with this would be very much appreciated.
        Thank you
        Colin




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gene Berry
        i have 3/8 on my mayfly 12 (per the plans) and it holds my 220lbs fine, but i did a double layer of 1/4 ply to finish 1/2 on the bottom of my Goose. only a
        Message 3 of 14 , May 29, 2013
          i have 3/8" on my mayfly 12 (per the plans) and it holds my 220lbs fine, but i did a double layer of 1/4" ply to finish 1/2" on the bottom of my Goose. only a guess but i imagine Jim called for a 1/2" to handle the pounding a flatie takes.

          Gene Berry

          --- On Wed, 5/29/13, shooter1941 <cbuxton41@...> wrote:

          From: shooter1941 <cbuxton41@...>
          Subject: [Michalak] Help with MAYFLY 14 Build
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, May 29, 2013, 2:26 PM
















           









          Looking for some advice.

          I just bought the plans for JM's Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2" plywood for the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has 3/8" in stock. Would 3/8" suffice for the bottom as a substitute for the 1/2"?

          The plywood I am using is Meranti Hydrotech.

          Any thoughts/advice with this would be very much appreciated.

          Thank you

          Colin



























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • prairiedog2332
          In my view it is not so much the thickness of the plywood as the number of plies. I have some 3/8 that is 3-ply and some MDO that has 5 equal plies. With the
          Message 4 of 14 , May 29, 2013
            In my view it is not so much the thickness of the plywood as the number
            of plies. I have some 3/8" that is 3-ply and some MDO that has 5 equal
            plies. With the 3-ply there is only one layer that is across the grain
            and only 2 glue lines. With the other you have 2 cross-grain layers and
            4 glue lines and the heat-fused overlay. Much more stable and not likely
            to warp ever, and any voids would tend to be be much smaller, and give a
            much stiffer bottom. Of course was about 60% pricier as well.

            I think Jim's plans are for common exterior grade plywood - maybe ACX -
            which I have no familiarity with here in Canada. So any build calling
            for 1/2" I would use the 3/8" MDO. Yes - somewhat lighter bottom- but
            just as strong especially if glassed. One can always secure a sand bag
            or two as well as a water jug if wanting more weight on the bottom. Or
            best of all a shiftable form like crew:-)

            Nels

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "shooter1941" wrote:
            >
            > Looking for some advice.
            > I just bought the plans for JM's Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2"
            plywood for the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has 3/8"
            in stock. Would 3/8" suffice for the bottom as a substitute for the
            1/2"?
            > The plywood I am using is Meranti Hydrotech.
            > Any thoughts/advice with this would be very much appreciated.
            > Thank you
            > Colin
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • shooter1941
            ... Thanks to all for the valuble advice and suggestions. There is another marine lumber supplier about 45 minutes away in Somerville MA that does stock 1/2
            Message 5 of 14 , May 30, 2013
              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "shooter1941" <cbuxton41@...> wrote:
              >
              > Looking for some advice.
              > I just bought the plans for JM's Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2" plywood for the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has 3/8" in stock. Would 3/8" suffice for the bottom as a substitute for the 1/2"?
              > The plywood I am using is Meranti Hydrotech.
              > Any thoughts/advice with this would be very much appreciated.
              > Thank you
              > Colin
              >
              Thanks to all for the valuble advice and suggestions. There is another marine lumber supplier about 45 minutes away in Somerville MA that does stock 1/2" MDO for $55 per sheet versus $94 for Meranti, so I will go with that.

              This info underscores the value of these forums. As a newbie boat builder I had never heard of MDO.
              Thanks again all.
              Colin
            • Joe Stromski
              MDO may well be available at a regular lumberyard, it s not strictly a boatbuilding material. I think its main use is in sign making. My big box store of
              Message 6 of 14 , May 30, 2013
                MDO may well be available at a "regular" lumberyard, it's not strictly a boatbuilding material. I think its main use is in sign making. My big box store of choice (Menards) stocks it for around 50 a sheet as well. Maybe you don't have to drive the 45 mins.
                Have fun, that's a sweet little skiff. I want to build one one of these days.
                Best
                Joe
                Sent from my iPad

                On May 30, 2013, at 7:30 PM, "shooter1941" <cbuxton41@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "shooter1941" <cbuxton41@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Looking for some advice.
                > > I just bought the plans for JM's Mayfly 14. The plans specify 1/2" plywood for the bottom. My local marine plywood supplier only has 3/8" in stock. Would 3/8" suffice for the bottom as a substitute for the 1/2"?
                > > The plywood I am using is Meranti Hydrotech.
                > > Any thoughts/advice with this would be very much appreciated.
                > > Thank you
                > > Colin
                > >
                > Thanks to all for the valuble advice and suggestions. There is another marine lumber supplier about 45 minutes away in Somerville MA that does stock 1/2" MDO for $55 per sheet versus $94 for Meranti, so I will go with that.
                >
                > This info underscores the value of these forums. As a newbie boat builder I had never heard of MDO.
                > Thanks again all.
                > Colin
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Colin Buxton
                Joe, Thanks for the info. Unfortunately there are no Menards in New England only Home Depot and Lowes and neither stock MDO . I researched it pretty thoroughly
                Message 7 of 14 , May 31, 2013
                  Joe,
                  Thanks for the info. Unfortunately there are no Menards in New England only Home Depot and Lowes and neither stock MDO . I researched it pretty thoroughly and you are correct it is used extensively for making signs and is sometimes referred to as “signboard".
                  I started the Mayfly build today and in about 8 hours got all the parts cut except the hull, bottom panels even though I proceeded slowly and carefully. I am pretty accomplished at carpentry with a large complement of tools including a large cabinet table saw on which I can crosscut and rip 4 x 8 panels. I did find that the 1/4” Meranti easily chips when power sawn even with a sharp, high tooth count blade so I used masking tape on all the the cut lines to prevent the chipping.
                  I will be cutting and joining the hull and bottom panels tomorrow and then begin the “dryfit” construction. It’s time to start taking pictures of my progress.
                  Cheers,
                  Colin


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • prairiedog2332
                  Home Depot claim they have it and give the model/SKU # s here: http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-8-4x8-4-Ply-MDO-P1s-Plywood-208553/20208875 4#.UajMBUBweSo
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 31, 2013
                    Home Depot claim they have it and give the model/SKU #'s here:

                    http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-8-4x8-4-Ply-MDO-P1s-Plywood-208553/20208875\
                    4#.UajMBUBweSo
                    <http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-8-4x8-4-Ply-MDO-P1s-Plywood-208553/2020887\
                    54#.UajMBUBweSo>

                    To my knowledge it is not available in 1/4 or 1/2" - either 3/8 or 5/8
                    since the overlays add some thickness. So I consider the 3/8" would
                    serve in place of 1/2" and 5/8" would be a bit too heavy. If going
                    thinner then probably Meranti or in some cases look at Baltic Birch.

                    Nels

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Colin Buxton" wrote:
                    >
                    > Joe,
                    > Thanks for the info. Unfortunately there are no Menards in New England
                    only Home Depot and Lowes and neither stock MDO . I researched it pretty
                    thoroughly and you are correct it is used extensively for making signs
                    and is sometimes referred to as “signboard".
                    > I started the Mayfly build today and in about 8 hours got all the
                    parts cut except the hull, bottom panels even though I proceeded slowly
                    and carefully. I am pretty accomplished at carpentry with a large
                    complement of tools including a large cabinet table saw on which I can
                    crosscut and rip 4 x 8 panels. I did find that the 1/4” Meranti
                    easily chips when power sawn even with a sharp, high tooth count blade
                    so I used masking tape on all the the cut lines to prevent the chipping.
                    > I will be cutting and joining the hull and bottom panels tomorrow and
                    then begin the “dryfit” construction. It’s time to
                    start taking pictures of my progress.
                    > Cheers,
                    > Colin
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Colin Buxton
                    My supplier at Maine Coast Lumber called me yesterday and let me know they just got in 1/2” Meranti Hydrotek. They also have 1/2”MDO in stock. I went today
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 31, 2013
                      My supplier at Maine Coast Lumber called me yesterday and let me know they just got in 1/2” Meranti Hydrotek. They also have 1/2”MDO in stock.
                      I went today and picked up the Meranti. They advised me against using MDO even though the glue is the same it is fir and has voids. They said very few of the boat builders in Maine use it anymore.
                      The gave me a 15% discount on the Meranti for holding up my boat build so it turned out about only $22 more per sheet than the 2S MDO plus the darn Maine 6% sales tax. We have no sales or income taxes in NH.
                      I see that Home Depot says MDO is only available at “select stores” which sure isn’t my local one.
                      Thanks for the info.
                      Cheers,
                      Colin

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • OnEvenKeel
                      Working with nice material is well worth the extra cost if your budget can tolerate it. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 31, 2013
                        Working with nice material is well worth the extra cost if your budget can tolerate it.

                        On May 31, 2013, at 5:55 PM, "Colin Buxton" <cbuxton41@...> wrote:

                        > My supplier at Maine Coast Lumber called me yesterday and let me know they just got in 1/2” Meranti Hydrotek. They also have 1/2”MDO in stock.
                        > I went today and picked up the Meranti. They advised me against using MDO even though the glue is the same it is fir and has voids. They said very few of the boat builders in Maine use it anymore.
                        > The gave me a 15% discount on the Meranti for holding up my boat build so it turned out about only $22 more per sheet than the 2S MDO plus the darn Maine 6% sales tax. We have no sales or income taxes in NH.
                        > I see that Home Depot says MDO is only available at “select stores” which sure isn’t my local one.
                        > Thanks for the info.
                        > Cheers,
                        > Colin
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John Kohnen
                        Be cautious when buying MDO from Home Despot and similar stores. MDO just means medium density overlay and doesn t say anything about the quality of the
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 31, 2013
                          Be cautious when buying MDO from Home Despot and similar stores. "MDO"
                          just means "medium density overlay" and doesn't say anything about the
                          quality of the wood used. HD uses the same SKU for whatever goes in a
                          given rack in the store, as we've discovered with their "premium"
                          underlayments, so even if you find a good product in the rack one day,
                          there may be something sh***y in it tomorrow -- or vice versa. I've seen
                          some pretty lousy looking MDO in a big box store...

                          While there are probably lots of mills making good MDO, this is a well
                          known one. Oly Panel's (formerly Simpson) Signal and Crezon are good
                          products:

                          http://www.olypanel.com/sign_making.php

                          If there's no lumberyard in your area that sells MDO, look for a sign
                          making company and ask where they get theirs. If you tell them about your
                          boat project they may even sell you some out of their stock.

                          1/2" MDO is common.

                          On Fri, 31 May 2013 09:20:18 -0700, Nels wrote:

                          > Home Depot claim they have it and give the model/SKU #'s here:
                          >
                          > http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-8-4x8-4-Ply-MDO-P1s-Plywood-208553/20208875\
                          > 4#.UajMBUBweSo
                          > <http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-8-4x8-4-Ply-MDO-P1s-Plywood-208553/2020887\
                          > 54#.UajMBUBweSo>
                          >
                          > To my knowledge it is not available in 1/4 or 1/2" - either 3/8 or 5/8
                          > since the overlays add some thickness. So I consider the 3/8" would
                          > serve in place of 1/2" and 5/8" would be a bit too heavy. If going
                          > thinner then probably Meranti or in some cases look at Baltic Birch.

                          --
                          John (jkohnen@...)
                          A lawn is nature under totalitarian rule. (Michael Pollan)
                        • prairiedog2332
                          John, You are dead on in your comments. My local seller is Windsor Plywood and their supplier is from a Canadian source and they do not have the 1/2 in their
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 31, 2013
                            John,
                            You are dead on in your comments.
                            My local seller is Windsor Plywood and their supplier is from a Canadian
                            source and they do not have the 1/2" in their order sources catalog so
                            I guess fewer choices up here then Olypanel offers? They use the major
                            sizes to start with and then apply the overlays to it which are roughly
                            1/16". So the 1/4" inch is sold as 3/8" and the 1/2" sold as 5/8" even
                            though both are a smidge under that. But the 3/8" has 5 plies which to
                            me is a good way to go, and the 5/8" has 7 -plies. The edges are sealed
                            in white paint on the 5/8" so had to scrape that off to confirm. My
                            salesman told the main factor is to make sure it is stamped "Made in
                            Canada" or "Made in USA" otherwise it may not be up to standards
                            established here, for genuine MDO.

                            Same " buyer beware" for Meranti plywood. The term means nothing.

                            http://www.libertywoods.com/meranti.html
                            <http://www.libertywoods.com/meranti.html>

                            Even a "1088" stamp means nothing. Does not mean it is Lloyds
                            certified. Just a phony stamp on off-shore imitations.

                            http://plywood.boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=MERBS1088
                            <http://plywood.boatbuildercentral.com/proddetail.php?prod=MERBS1088>

                            Nels









                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" wrote:
                            >
                            > Be cautious when buying MDO from Home Despot and similar stores. "MDO"
                            > just means "medium density overlay" and doesn't say anything about the
                            > quality of the wood used. HD uses the same SKU for whatever goes in a
                            > given rack in the store, as we've discovered with their "premium"
                            > underlayments, so even if you find a good product in the rack one day,
                            > there may be something sh***y in it tomorrow -- or vice versa. I've
                            seen
                            > some pretty lousy looking MDO in a big box store...
                            >
                            > While there are probably lots of mills making good MDO, this is a well
                            > known one. Oly Panel's (formerly Simpson) Signal and Crezon are good
                            > products:
                            >
                            > http://www.olypanel.com/sign_making.php
                            >
                            > If there's no lumberyard in your area that sells MDO, look for a sign
                            > making company and ask where they get theirs. If you tell them about
                            your
                            > boat project they may even sell you some out of their stock.
                            >
                            > 1/2" MDO is common.
                            >
                            > On Fri, 31 May 2013 09:20:18 -0700, Nels wrote:
                            >
                            > > Home Depot claim they have it and give the model/SKU #'s here:
                            > >
                            > >
                            http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-8-4x8-4-Ply-MDO-P1s-Plywood-208553/20208875\
                            \
                            > > 4#.UajMBUBweSo
                            > > > > 54#.UajMBUBweSo>
                            > >
                            > > To my knowledge it is not available in 1/4 or 1/2" - either 3/8 or
                            5/8
                            > > since the overlays add some thickness. So I consider the 3/8" would
                            > > serve in place of 1/2" and 5/8" would be a bit too heavy. If going
                            > > thinner then probably Meranti or in some cases look at Baltic Birch.
                            >
                            > --
                            > John (jkohnen@...)
                            > A lawn is nature under totalitarian rule. (Michael Pollan)
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Kohnen
                            Looking for MDO made in the US or Canada is a good dtart, but even Oly Panel makes lower grades of MDO. Their Crezon has good quality plies, but may have one
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 1, 2013
                              Looking for MDO made in the US or Canada is a good dtart, but even Oly
                              Panel makes lower grades of MDO. Their Crezon has good quality plies, but
                              may have one small inner ply void per sheet, their Signal, which I haven't
                              seen in the flesh yet, is said to have no voids.

                              "BS 1088" and "BS 6566" are British standards, and have nothing to do with
                              Lloyds, though Lloyds probably requires BS 1088 for their best ratings.
                              I'd heard that the British Standards aren't enforceable outside the
                              Commonwealth, or whatever you guys call it nowadays, but if BS 1088 means
                              nothing in Canada I guess I'm mistaken. At any rate, just because a
                              plywood has "BS 1088" on it, it doesn't mean it could pass the British
                              standards...

                              http://www.worldpanel.com/bs1088.htm

                              <http://boatcraft.com.au/informationpages/marine_plywood_bs1088.htm>

                              Meranti plywood can be very good, as can Lauan. The trouble we have with
                              cheapo lauan underlayment has to do with the manufacture of the plywood,
                              not the species used. The best bet for getting good plywood or MDO is to
                              buy the stuff made by a reputable manufacturer. If the manufacturer's name
                              isn't on the plywood, or the seller can't show you where he got it, the
                              stuff probably isn't worth taking a risk on. When buying MDO, get one of
                              the better grades.

                              On Fri, 31 May 2013 18:35:40 -0700, Nels wrote:

                              > John,
                              > You are dead on in your comments.
                              > My local seller is Windsor Plywood and their supplier is from a Canadian
                              > source
                              > ...
                              > My
                              > salesman told the main factor is to make sure it is stamped "Made in
                              > Canada" or "Made in USA" otherwise it may not be up to standards
                              > established here, for genuine MDO.
                              > ...
                              > Even a "1088" stamp means nothing. Does not mean it is Lloyds
                              > certified. Just a phony stamp on off-shore imitations.
                              > ...

                              --
                              John (jkohnen@...)
                              "Necessity is the mother of invention" is a silly proverb. "Necessity is
                              the mother of futile dodges" is much nearer the truth. (Alfred North
                              Whitehead)
                            • prairiedog2332
                              John, just to clarify this is what I said: Even a 1088 stamp means nothing. Not quite the same thing as you refer to. I recall a post on another group that
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 1, 2013
                                John, just to clarify this is what I said: Even a "1088" stamp means
                                nothing. Not quite the same thing as you refer to.

                                I recall a post on another group that a fellow bought some Meranti and
                                it had "1088" stamped on it and he found it to be crap compared to what
                                he expected..

                                I totally agree that dealing with reputable plywood store is the best
                                way to go and if in doubt just buy one sheet and test it yourself. If it
                                fails, don't build a boat with it. If it has a beautiful exterior then
                                check the edges. If the outers are paper thin and inner is darker in
                                color and thicker then I won't even bother with it. Voids in the glue
                                lines are just as critical as voids in the plies and my testing has
                                shown starved glue joints as I think the softer inner core absorbs a lot
                                of the glue, and when tested the outer plies will either separate or
                                wrinkle.

                                Nels

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" wrote:
                                >
                                > Looking for MDO made in the US or Canada is a good dtart, but even Oly
                                > Panel makes lower grades of MDO. Their Crezon has good quality plies,
                                but
                                > may have one small inner ply void per sheet, their Signal, which I
                                haven't
                                > seen in the flesh yet, is said to have no voids.
                                >
                                > "BS 1088" and "BS 6566" are British standards, and have nothing to do
                                with
                                > Lloyds, though Lloyds probably requires BS 1088 for their best
                                ratings.
                                > I'd heard that the British Standards aren't enforceable outside the
                                > Commonwealth, or whatever you guys call it nowadays, but if BS 1088
                                means
                                > nothing in Canada I guess I'm mistaken. At any rate, just because a
                                > plywood has "BS 1088" on it, it doesn't mean it could pass the British
                                > standards...
                                >
                                > http://www.worldpanel.com/bs1088.htm
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Meranti plywood can be very good, as can Lauan. The trouble we have
                                with
                                > cheapo lauan underlayment has to do with the manufacture of the
                                plywood,
                                > not the species used. The best bet for getting good plywood or MDO is
                                to
                                > buy the stuff made by a reputable manufacturer. If the manufacturer's
                                name
                                > isn't on the plywood, or the seller can't show you where he got it,
                                the
                                > stuff probably isn't worth taking a risk on. When buying MDO, get one
                                of
                                > the better grades.
                                >
                                > On Fri, 31 May 2013 18:35:40 -0700, Nels wrote:
                                >
                                > > John,
                                > > You are dead on in your comments.
                                > > My local seller is Windsor Plywood and their supplier is from a
                                Canadian
                                > > source
                                > > ...
                                > > My
                                > > salesman told the main factor is to make sure it is stamped "Made in
                                > > Canada" or "Made in USA" otherwise it may not be up to standards
                                > > established here, for genuine MDO.
                                > > ...
                                > > Even a "1088" stamp means nothing. Does not mean it is Lloyds
                                > > certified. Just a phony stamp on off-shore imitations.
                                > > ...
                                >
                                > --
                                > John (jkohnen@...)
                                > "Necessity is the mother of invention" is a silly proverb. "Necessity
                                is
                                > the mother of futile dodges" is much nearer the truth. (Alfred North
                                > Whitehead)
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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