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Lug Sails

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  • prairiedog2332
    I have been reviewing some of Bolger s older books, Different Boats The Folding Schooner 30 Odd Boats and his comments regarding various sail rigs. It
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 23, 2013
      I have been reviewing some of Bolger's older books, "Different Boats"
      "The Folding Schooner" "30 Odd Boats" and his comments regarding various
      sail rigs. It occurred to me that overall, Jim Michalak got it right
      with his preference for the Balance Lug. Particularly in smaller boats
      where initial investment was a consideration and the sailor maybe not
      all that experienced. A cheaply made boat with an expensive sailing rig
      is a real cost loser in his view as is an expensive hull with a cheap
      sail rig.


      Several things Bolger mentioned that I am sure Jim was aware of:


      A lug sail doesn't need much shaping to perform adequately. What it
      loses in shape it can make up for in area. In fact Bolger mentions one
      made by an awning maker can perform surprisingly well. Now we know that
      one made from polytarp will likely stretch a bit with use and even do
      even better over time.


      A low aspect ratio lug sail is a great compromise. That is one with the
      yard not peaked up too high since sail twist then becomes a potential
      issue in higher winds plus may heel the boat over more on a light
      relatively narrow hull. Oddly enough when sailing on the "bad tack" when
      the sail is pressed up against the mast, twist is not so much of an
      issue. Even though most sailors consider this as being a detriment with
      this rig.


      Keeping the luff tight is a priority as the leading edge is not
      supported by the mast but actually is an ideal foil shape when kept
      straight. Jim empathizes this with the importance of the tack line
      downhaul. Storer and Welsford even suggest an improved method of
      attaching the halyard for even more support. See the 3rd photo here. It
      is attached to the forward end of the yard and then through a loop
      further aft and then up to the mast. Firming up in the halyard then
      raises the forward end of the yard helping keep the luff tight. To me
      this is a major improvement.

      http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/ <http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/>


      Also shows another requirement for a lug sail and that is the addition
      of lazy jacks when reefing and supporting the boom.


      Another advantage is a lug can offer more area on a given mast height
      than almost any other sail with the exception of a sprit sail but has
      the added advantage of being a lot easier to reef.


      This leaves open question regarding this simple sail rig. How well will
      it perform upwind? A tiny 1-2 hp OB will drive most of Jim's designs at
      hull speed and provide back-up auxiliary propulsion even when the wind
      dies. Even Bolger - who loves rowing over sailing - sees most sailboats
      as a challenge to row although a scull or yuloh is also nice to learn
      how to use according to him.


      One final thing I gleaned is that one larger lug sail almost always
      performs better than two smaller ones on a similar waterline length.
      Adding a mizzen we now know is also useful for control reasons but is
      not really considered a driving sail.

      Nels









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • prairiedog2332
      When I referred to the 3rd photo it was the 3rd photo for the Scamp design launch set and clicking on it enlarges the photo. This was the first time I saw the
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 23, 2013
        When I referred to the 3rd photo it was the 3rd photo for the Scamp
        design launch set and clicking on it enlarges the photo.


        This was the first time I saw the advantage of that halyard attachment
        method. Notice how it attaches to the forward end of the yard then
        around the mast and back through the loop further aft to help secure the
        yard close to the mast? And how taught the luff stays?


        Seems the yard is longer than Jim usually draws and peaked up higher. So
        maybe it also helps prevent twist as well? Scamp's performance has
        amazed a lot of folks.


        To me a great photo of a lug in action. What's not to like?

        Nels


        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
        >

        > http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/
        >
        >
        > Also shows another requirement for a lug sail and that is the addition
        > of lazy jacks when reefing and supporting the boom.
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anders Bjorklund
        That halyard rigging arrangement is touted as making the sail easier to hoist and douse than methods that have a parrel or a halyard loop closely encircling
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 23, 2013
          That halyard rigging arrangement is touted as making the sail easier to
          hoist and douse than methods that have a parrel or a halyard loop closely
          encircling the mast. It will never bind. But I don't think it has any
          effect on luff tension. What's not to like? I don't think it's great when
          there is a lot of halyard showing about the yard -- when the mast is extra
          tall, or when the sail is deeply reefed. Notice in the photo how the
          mainsheet tension has pivoted the entire sail aft, which makes the end of
          the boom droop very low. That gives less head clearance in the cockpit, and
          makes it more likely to trip in the water when sailing off wind. Also
          notice that if the downward mainsheet tension is reduced, the sail will
          pivot back forward, which will make the luff tension go slack if the
          downhaul is not re-tensioned. When sailing downwind with this arrangement,
          the yard is also free to saw back and forth across the mast, which might
          cause all sorts of instabilities.

          So I would actually rather use a yard parrel (with beads to prevent
          binding) that keeps the yard in a constant secure position with respect to
          the mast. But people who use it seem to like it, so I might be exaggerating
          its shortcomings. By the way, I do think that more highly peaked yards are
          less subject to unwanted twist.

          Anders


          On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 5:37 PM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

          > When I referred to the 3rd photo it was the 3rd photo for the Scamp
          > design launch set and clicking on it enlarges the photo.
          >
          > This was the first time I saw the advantage of that halyard attachment
          > method. Notice how it attaches to the forward end of the yard then
          > around the mast and back through the loop further aft to help secure the
          > yard close to the mast? And how taught the luff stays?
          >
          > Seems the yard is longer than Jim usually draws and peaked up higher. So
          > maybe it also helps prevent twist as well? Scamp's performance has
          > amazed a lot of folks.
          >
          > To me a great photo of a lug in action. What's not to like?
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Boy
          I ve rigged Looney Toon s lug that way.  I ve never had a problem with it. John Boy   I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/ “Seaward ho! Hang
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 23, 2013
            I've rigged Looney Toon's lug that way.  I've never had a problem with it.
            John Boy
             


            I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/

            “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 

            Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


            ________________________________
            From: Anders Bjorklund <andersbjorklund5@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 6:00 PM
            Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Lug Sails



             
            That halyard rigging arrangement is touted as making the sail easier to
            hoist and douse than methods that have a parrel or a halyard loop closely
            encircling the mast. It will never bind. But I don't think it has any
            effect on luff tension. What's not to like? I don't think it's great when
            there is a lot of halyard showing about the yard -- when the mast is extra
            tall, or when the sail is deeply reefed. Notice in the photo how the
            mainsheet tension has pivoted the entire sail aft, which makes the end of
            the boom droop very low. That gives less head clearance in the cockpit, and
            makes it more likely to trip in the water when sailing off wind. Also
            notice that if the downward mainsheet tension is reduced, the sail will
            pivot back forward, which will make the luff tension go slack if the
            downhaul is not re-tensioned. When sailing downwind with this arrangement,
            the yard is also free to saw back and forth across the mast, which might
            cause all sorts of instabilities.

            So I would actually rather use a yard parrel (with beads to prevent
            binding) that keeps the yard in a constant secure position with respect to
            the mast. But people who use it seem to like it, so I might be exaggerating
            its shortcomings. By the way, I do think that more highly peaked yards are
            less subject to unwanted twist.

            Anders

            On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 5:37 PM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

            > When I referred to the 3rd photo it was the 3rd photo for the Scamp
            > design launch set and clicking on it enlarges the photo.
            >
            > This was the first time I saw the advantage of that halyard attachment
            > method. Notice how it attaches to the forward end of the yard then
            > around the mast and back through the loop further aft to help secure the
            > yard close to the mast? And how taught the luff stays?
            >
            > Seems the yard is longer than Jim usually draws and peaked up higher. So
            > maybe it also helps prevent twist as well? Scamp's performance has
            > amazed a lot of folks.
            >
            > To me a great photo of a lug in action. What's not to like?
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • prairiedog2332
            Sounds good Anders, Might be useful to add, that if considering alternate rigging like that or adding lazy jacks, topping lift or thinking of peaking the gaff
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 24, 2013
              Sounds good Anders,

              Might be useful to add, that if considering alternate rigging like that
              or adding lazy jacks, topping lift or thinking of peaking the gaff
              higher it is a good idea to construct the mast a bit longer than shown
              on plans. More space for dumb sheaves and gives a bit more hoist
              advantage angle. Always easier to shorten a mast than to lengthen it.

              Also use single ties to the yard and not a continuous line. That way
              they can be adjusted to add more fullness to the sail if in an situation
              when lighter winds prevail. And a very useful addition might be jiffy
              reefing. Ross Lillestone has some short videos on YouTube.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35-enwImJw
              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35-enwImJw>


              Those reefing lines should also work great with a slot-top boat.

              Any additional suggestions?

              Nels



              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Anders Bjorklund wrote:
              >
              > That halyard rigging arrangement is touted as making the sail easier
              to
              > hoist and douse than methods that have a parrel or a halyard loop
              closely
              > encircling the mast. It will never bind. But I don't think it has any
              > effect on luff tension. What's not to like? I don't think it's great
              when
              > there is a lot of halyard showing about the yard -- when the mast is
              extra
              > tall, or when the sail is deeply reefed. Notice in the photo how the
              > mainsheet tension has pivoted the entire sail aft, which makes the end
              of
              > the boom droop very low. That gives less head clearance in the
              cockpit, and
              > makes it more likely to trip in the water when sailing off wind. Also
              > notice that if the downward mainsheet tension is reduced, the sail
              will
              > pivot back forward, which will make the luff tension go slack if the
              > downhaul is not re-tensioned. When sailing downwind with this
              arrangement,
              > the yard is also free to saw back and forth across the mast, which
              might
              > cause all sorts of instabilities.
              >
              > So I would actually rather use a yard parrel (with beads to prevent
              > binding) that keeps the yard in a constant secure position with
              respect to
              > the mast. But people who use it seem to like it, so I might be
              exaggerating
              > its shortcomings. By the way, I do think that more highly peaked yards
              are
              > less subject to unwanted twist.
              >
              > Anders
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anders Bjorklund
              Brian Pearson (aka keyhavenpotterer) in Britain recommends an additional bit of lashing that connects the throat cringle to the yard. Its purpose is to prevent
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 24, 2013
                Brian Pearson (aka keyhavenpotterer) in Britain recommends an additional
                bit of lashing that connects the throat cringle to the yard. Its purpose is
                to prevent the tension on the luff from pulling it downward along (and away
                from) the yard. That helps to prevent the head of the sail from being
                tensioned too much when the downhaul is applied hard. He places a
                tiny padeye on the top surface of the yard, directly in line with the luff
                tension that pulls down on the cringe. A lashing through that padeye
                directly opposes the downward force, and holds the cringle in the correct
                location when the downhaul tension is varied.

                Anders


                On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

                > Any additional suggestions?
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • prairiedog2332
                Very good suggestion: Hopefully this illustrates it further. http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&star t=40
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 25, 2013
                  Very good suggestion: Hopefully this illustrates it further.

                  http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&star\
                  t=40
                  <http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&sta\
                  rt=40>


                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Anders Bjorklund wrote:
                  >
                  > Brian Pearson (aka keyhavenpotterer) in Britain recommends an
                  additional
                  > bit of lashing that connects the throat cringle to the yard. Its
                  purpose is
                  > to prevent the tension on the luff from pulling it downward along (and
                  away
                  > from) the yard. That helps to prevent the head of the sail from being
                  > tensioned too much when the downhaul is applied hard. He places a
                  > tiny padeye on the top surface of the yard, directly in line with the
                  luff
                  > tension that pulls down on the cringe. A lashing through that padeye
                  > directly opposes the downward force, and holds the cringle in the
                  correct
                  > location when the downhaul tension is varied.
                  >
                  > Anders
                  >
                  >
                  > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@... wrote:
                  >
                  > > Any additional suggestions?
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Anders Bjorklund
                  Excellent Nels, thank you for finding that! Anders ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 25, 2013
                    Excellent Nels, thank you for finding that!

                    Anders


                    On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:52 AM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

                    > Hopefully this illustrates it further.
                    >
                    > http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&star\
                    > t=40<http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&start=40>
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jhargrovewright2@juno.com
                    My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of your posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have anything to add or
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 25, 2013
                      My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of your posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have anything to add or a worthwhile comment. Nels, II always read you. Woops, I do have a question....why prairiedog? JIB

                      ---------- Original Message ----------
                      From: Anders Bjorklund <andersbjorklund5@...>
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Lug Sails
                      Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:03:25 -0500


                      <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
                      Excellent Nels, thank you for finding that!

                      Anders

                      On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 5:52 AM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

                      > Hopefully this illustrates it further.
                      >
                      > http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&star\
                      > t=40<http://smallcraftadvisor.com/message-board2/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=238&start=40>
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • prairiedog2332
                      Thanks John, The only thing I wonder about is if folks see errors and don t bother to point them out. So I welcome them most of all as we both learn that
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 25, 2013
                        Thanks John,

                        The only thing I wonder about is if folks see errors and don't bother to
                        point them out. So I welcome them most of all as we both learn that
                        way:-)

                        I always thought the sprit boom leg o' mutton was about the best rig for
                        simplicity and performance, being self-vanging and how you can adjust
                        the draft by adjusting the snotter. But it requires such a tall mast to
                        get any area and tall tapered masts are not the easiest things to make
                        as well as man-handle and travel with. Plus, in order to have easy
                        reefing they need sail track.


                        Then the more I looked at lugsail rigs the more I saw how advantageous
                        they are. Especially once understanding the necessity of keeping the
                        luff tight and the joys of jiffy reefing along with some other tweaks.
                        As Ross Lillistone mentions you can make them simple as can be and then
                        experiment with tweaks for years with just a bit of added string.


                        Then you can get into the Mik Storer levels with full battens dyneema
                        lines and sheet bridles and on and on. So my latest wondering is about
                        those mainsheet bridles with a traveller, 3 blocks and 3 attachment
                        points to the boom like on the GIS?


                        http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html
                        <http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html>


                        I surmised this was to bring the mainsheet closer to hand when hiking
                        out over the rail but apparently it also helps to control boom bend. If
                        you have the boom tacked down at the forward end and the sheet tied at
                        the back end then the boom will bend in the middle and throw off the
                        shape of the sail. As the wind increases the sail becomes fuller at a
                        time when you want to flatten it. Any comments on that?

                        And I got further confirmation about what Anders says about a higher
                        peaked gaff tends to twist less than a lower peaked gaff. John Welsford
                        says it does twist a bit when hit with a gust but immediately spills
                        excess wind off the peak as the gaff bends there and is actually and
                        advantage for maintaining control and heeling.

                        And a final word from the sail guru, Todd Bradshaw. When making a
                        sail, the degree of yard and boom stiffness or lack thereof has to be
                        known when shaping the sail. And he goes on to explain how to test your
                        rig to see how well it does in that regard. He feels this is one area
                        the polysail makers have not taken into account. Comments?

                        John, the "prairie dog" moniker was was from way back to when I lived on
                        the prairies and my business then was called "Prairie Dog Distributors".
                        A lot of my customers called me Prairie Dog as a result.

                        Nels
                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "jhargrovewright2@..." wrote:
                        >
                        > My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of your
                        posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have
                        anything to add or a worthwhile comment. Nels, II always read you.
                        Woops, I do have a question....why prairiedog? JIB




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John Trussell
                        Nels, I ve built a couple of boats with a balanced lug sail, My experience has been that these sails need a fair amount of downhaul tension to set well and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 25, 2013
                          Nels,



                          I've built a couple of boats with a balanced lug sail, My experience has
                          been that these sails need a fair amount of downhaul tension to set well and
                          that the downhaul is more likely to bend the boom than tension through a mid
                          boom location of the sheet. The boom on my first effort (a Michalak 'Mixer')
                          bent quite a bit. My solution then (and since) is to increase the depth of
                          the specified boom by about 25 to 30% over what the design specifies,
                          tapering the boom toward the ends. This seems to solve the problem and the
                          extra weight doesn't seem to be significant.



                          I've had other boats with different rigs and I think that for my sailing, a
                          balanced lug sail is my favorite.



                          JohnT



                          _____

                          From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of prairiedog2332
                          Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:00 PM
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Lug Sails





                          Thanks John,

                          The only thing I wonder about is if folks see errors and don't bother to
                          point them out. So I welcome them most of all as we both learn that
                          way:-)

                          I always thought the sprit boom leg o' mutton was about the best rig for
                          simplicity and performance, being self-vanging and how you can adjust
                          the draft by adjusting the snotter. But it requires such a tall mast to
                          get any area and tall tapered masts are not the easiest things to make
                          as well as man-handle and travel with. Plus, in order to have easy
                          reefing they need sail track.

                          Then the more I looked at lugsail rigs the more I saw how advantageous
                          they are. Especially once understanding the necessity of keeping the
                          luff tight and the joys of jiffy reefing along with some other tweaks.
                          As Ross Lillistone mentions you can make them simple as can be and then
                          experiment with tweaks for years with just a bit of added string.

                          Then you can get into the Mik Storer levels with full battens dyneema
                          lines and sheet bridles and on and on. So my latest wondering is about
                          those mainsheet bridles with a traveller, 3 blocks and 3 attachment
                          points to the boom like on the GIS?

                          http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html
                          <http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html>

                          I surmised this was to bring the mainsheet closer to hand when hiking
                          out over the rail but apparently it also helps to control boom bend. If
                          you have the boom tacked down at the forward end and the sheet tied at
                          the back end then the boom will bend in the middle and throw off the
                          shape of the sail. As the wind increases the sail becomes fuller at a
                          time when you want to flatten it. Any comments on that?

                          And I got further confirmation about what Anders says about a higher
                          peaked gaff tends to twist less than a lower peaked gaff. John Welsford
                          says it does twist a bit when hit with a gust but immediately spills
                          excess wind off the peak as the gaff bends there and is actually and
                          advantage for maintaining control and heeling.

                          And a final word from the sail guru, Todd Bradshaw. When making a
                          sail, the degree of yard and boom stiffness or lack thereof has to be
                          known when shaping the sail. And he goes on to explain how to test your
                          rig to see how well it does in that regard. He feels this is one area
                          the polysail makers have not taken into account. Comments?

                          John, the "prairie dog" moniker was was from way back to when I lived on
                          the prairies and my business then was called "Prairie Dog Distributors".
                          A lot of my customers called me Prairie Dog as a result.

                          Nels
                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                          "jhargrovewright2@..." wrote:
                          >
                          > My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of your
                          posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have
                          anything to add or a worthwhile comment. Nels, II always read you.
                          Woops, I do have a question....why prairiedog? JIB

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • prairiedog2332
                          Wish I could locate the thread where Mr. Bradshaw discussed lug sails on the WB forum. He tends to go off on rants sometimes but as one member shared, they are
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 26, 2013
                            Wish I could locate the thread where Mr. Bradshaw discussed lug sails on
                            the WB forum. He tends to go off on rants sometimes but as one member
                            shared, they are worth reading:-)

                            One thing I recall him mentioning was that some folks tend to overdo it
                            with luff tension that ends up damaging the sewing on the sail, when
                            boom stiffness might be the problem needing looked at.

                            So had me thinking that an expensive sail might be compromised by poor
                            spar matching and tensioning. A boom or yard can be stiffened without
                            having to make a new one. One way is add a short tapered stave to the
                            bottom or a narrow one on each side and test it for a smooth curvature.
                            Or add some glass tape that winds off gradually. Both secured with epoxy
                            of course. He also shared a way to determine how well the sail sets
                            under various conditions. Involves applying a strip of contrasting tape
                            above a certain height and paralleled to the boom. Each sail design
                            works best with a certain amount of hollow being visible for a given
                            length of foot and how smooth the tape line curvature. Sailrite sells a
                            special tape but you can use an alternative so long as you remove it
                            after a day or so.

                            Anybody familiar with that idea? The bottom line is that it is just not
                            the sail itself that decides the performance level. It a npart of the
                            total package, including the yards, mast and hull design as well as the
                            under water foils. And of course the skill and experiece of the skipper
                            with a particular boat.

                            Nels



                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" wrote:
                            >
                            > Nels,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I've built a couple of boats with a balanced lug sail, My experience
                            has
                            > been that these sails need a fair amount of downhaul tension to set
                            well and
                            > that the downhaul is more likely to bend the boom than tension through
                            a mid
                            > boom location of the sheet. The boom on my first effort (a Michalak
                            'Mixer')
                            > bent quite a bit. My solution then (and since) is to increase the
                            depth of
                            > the specified boom by about 25 to 30% over what the design specifies,
                            > tapering the boom toward the ends. This seems to solve the problem and
                            the
                            > extra weight doesn't seem to be significant.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I've had other boats with different rigs and I think that for my
                            sailing, a
                            > balanced lug sail is my favorite.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > JohnT
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf
                            > Of prairiedog2332
                            > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:00 PM
                            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Lug Sails
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks John,
                            >
                            > The only thing I wonder about is if folks see errors and don't bother
                            to
                            > point them out. So I welcome them most of all as we both learn that
                            > way:-)
                            >
                            > I always thought the sprit boom leg o' mutton was about the best rig
                            for
                            > simplicity and performance, being self-vanging and how you can adjust
                            > the draft by adjusting the snotter. But it requires such a tall mast
                            to
                            > get any area and tall tapered masts are not the easiest things to make
                            > as well as man-handle and travel with. Plus, in order to have easy
                            > reefing they need sail track.
                            >
                            > Then the more I looked at lugsail rigs the more I saw how advantageous
                            > they are. Especially once understanding the necessity of keeping the
                            > luff tight and the joys of jiffy reefing along with some other tweaks.
                            > As Ross Lillistone mentions you can make them simple as can be and
                            then
                            > experiment with tweaks for years with just a bit of added string.
                            >
                            > Then you can get into the Mik Storer levels with full battens dyneema
                            > lines and sheet bridles and on and on. So my latest wondering is about
                            > those mainsheet bridles with a traveller, 3 blocks and 3 attachment
                            > points to the boom like on the GIS?
                            >
                            > http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html
                            >
                            >
                            > I surmised this was to bring the mainsheet closer to hand when hiking
                            > out over the rail but apparently it also helps to control boom bend.
                            If
                            > you have the boom tacked down at the forward end and the sheet tied at
                            > the back end then the boom will bend in the middle and throw off the
                            > shape of the sail. As the wind increases the sail becomes fuller at a
                            > time when you want to flatten it. Any comments on that?
                            >
                            > And I got further confirmation about what Anders says about a higher
                            > peaked gaff tends to twist less than a lower peaked gaff. John
                            Welsford
                            > says it does twist a bit when hit with a gust but immediately spills
                            > excess wind off the peak as the gaff bends there and is actually and
                            > advantage for maintaining control and heeling.
                            >
                            > And a final word from the sail guru, Todd Bradshaw. When making a
                            > sail, the degree of yard and boom stiffness or lack thereof has to be
                            > known when shaping the sail. And he goes on to explain how to test
                            your
                            > rig to see how well it does in that regard. He feels this is one area
                            > the polysail makers have not taken into account. Comments?
                            >
                            > John, the "prairie dog" moniker was was from way back to when I lived
                            on
                            > the prairies and my business then was called "Prairie Dog
                            Distributors".
                            > A lot of my customers called me Prairie Dog as a result.
                            >
                            > Nels
                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com ,
                            > "jhargrovewright2@" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of
                            your
                            > posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have
                            > anything to add or a worthwhile comment. Nels, II always read you.
                            > Woops, I do have a question....why prairiedog? JIB
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • PolySail_Dave
                            Nels, You asked for comments from PolySail makers on sail guru Todd Bradshaw s observations that PolySail makers don t take the degree of yard and boom
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 27, 2013
                              Nels,

                              You asked for comments from PolySail makers on sail guru Todd Bradshaw's
                              observations that PolySail makers don't take the degree of yard and boom
                              stiffness and other technical factors into account when constructing
                              [lug] sails. Since I am the one who created the name PolySail, I assume
                              he means me, and I am happy to respond.

                              First, let me say that I know Mr. Bradshaw's work well, and that every
                              sail of his that I have seen online is exceptional in appearance. I
                              suspect that each of those sails is also an excellent performer when
                              properly rigged and I give him credit for his extensive knowledge when
                              it comes to working with Dacron and other traditional sailmaking
                              materials and perhaps many of today's high tech laminates. I'm also well
                              aware of his oft-stated opinions that our PolySails essentially don't
                              measure up to "real sails" on any level because we don't know nothin'
                              about buildin' sails the way they is supposed to be built.

                              Occasionally, one of Mr. Bradshaw's rants concerning our understanding
                              of sailmaking and our instructions on making particular types of sails
                              have aligned with our testing or for some other reason hits home, and I
                              have made changes to specific instructions as a result. For those
                              moments of insight and helpfulness, I thank him. But many of his
                              demeaning comments I simply dismiss because he works with different
                              materials than I do in sailmaking, and I doubt that he has nearly the
                              knowledge of differing polyethylene tarps and their stretch
                              characteristics or suitability as sail materials as I think I do. I
                              give myself credit for working with polytarp for 17 years, and I believe
                              I know its limitations and capabilities fairly well by now. I've had it
                              tested to destruction with other sail materials on sophisticated
                              machinery; I've done strip testing myself of three different weights of
                              poytarp to help me understand their differing stretch characteristics
                              under variable pressures; and I've received plenty of feedback from
                              customers over the years on polytarp performance and durability. The
                              long and short of all this is that I've concluded that some polytarp is
                              very good material for particular types of sails, the material doesn't
                              cost very much, it's great for testing and experimentation, and it opens
                              up sailing to many who might otherwise be put off from trying the sport
                              based on its reputation for exclusivity and by the jargon and "gurus" of
                              the sailing world.

                              To hark back to your initial post on lug sails, Nels, you mentioned that
                              Bolger thought lugs were easy to make and that "awning makers" could
                              make one. Phil might have been exaggerating to make a point, but I think
                              he was probably right that it doesn't require his Naval Architect's
                              degree to make a decently performing lug sail. Emiliano Marino, aka
                              Raven, the Sail Doctor, who writes a column in Small Craft Advisor, and
                              was the author of The Sailmaker's Apprentice takes a similar approach,
                              saying at one point that "...perfectly acceptable sails may be made from
                              Tyvek, polyethylene tarps, London Fog raincoat material, bag nylon, or
                              tent canvas--not to mention old sails." I might be mistaken, but I
                              believe I recall that the lug sail on Graham's Rogue on John Welsford's
                              page is one I built for him. Did you immediately identify it as polytarp
                              and conclude the boat wouldn't sail well? (I have the same photo of the
                              Rogue in one of the shots that was sent to me by a customer down under,
                              and I do recall building a couple of Rogue sails for customers in
                              Australia or New Zealand.) To me, the performance of polytarp sails is
                              well-proven. Polytarp lug sails made by me and others have always
                              performed well on PDRacers in the Worlds competition. Brad Hickman won
                              with one of my lug sails in 2011 even though I didn't ask him about his
                              stiffness. One of our kit lugs placed third last year to a well sailed,
                              Laser sail equipped PDR and a large sailboard sail on another. Mike
                              Monies and Andy Linn managed to run most of the 2011 EC with our lug
                              sail, then Mike campaigned it on SCAMP #2 throughout the year before it
                              was replaced with the "official" SCA sail in early 2012 at Lake Havasu.
                              However, before the polytarp sail was changed out, (According to Jackie
                              Monies" account) Mike won his class with the polysail lug, then raced
                              again with the new sail and placed second (obviously, a tuning issue.) I
                              believe a few boats have managed to sail the entire Texas 200 with
                              polytarp sails. In my mind polytarp lug sails are much like Jim
                              Michalak's boats--they're usually cheap to build, easy to put together,
                              and perform unexpectedly well. What more could you ask for, especially
                              if you are sailing one of Jim's or Phil's designs? As a novice, I first
                              turned to polytarp in 1996 because I didn't want to pay more for a sail
                              than I paid to build my new Bolger Cartopper. I firmly believe there's
                              still very much a place for polytarp sails in spite of some people's
                              efforts to discredit them and in spite of some truly awful first efforts
                              by first time sailmakers and sailors with some not so good hardware
                              store tarps.

                              Finally, to get back to Todd's comment that we PolySail makers don't pay
                              enough attention to technical details of sailmaking like spar and boom
                              stiffness. He might be right there, but then--maybe we don't have to
                              give it our attention because of the way our material behaves--and maybe
                              he does. His materials and ours are , perhaps, at two different extremes
                              in the sailing world. (Actually, I do sometimes ask customers about some
                              details, such as the material they are using for their yard, boom, and
                              mast, especially when I think they might have an answer and it's
                              important to them that I ask. But I can't recall ever asking them about
                              their stiffness and passing it off as essential to know for sailmaking.)
                              As for rigging, I point customers both to Michael Storer's site, and to
                              the chapter on lug sails in David Nichols' book The Working Guide to
                              Traditional Small Boat Sails. Nichols shows several options for rigging
                              the traditional lug. Both are great resources for me and for my
                              customers because I confess to knowing very little about rigging a lug
                              sail myself and these are good people to learn from.

                              Dave Gray

                              By the way, does anyone know if Jim still recommends putting that huge
                              tack dart in polytarp lug sails? I know at one time he had a math
                              formula all worked out for sizing that dart. I think Chuck and Sandra
                              Leinweber included that dart when they made their first polytarp sail
                              from one of our kits for their Michalak Caprice, and, as I've come to
                              expect from polytarp, it performed well on that boat whether in spite of
                              or because of that dart. Like me, polytarp is a very forgiving material.



                              >
                              > The only thing I wonder about is if folks see errors and don't bother
                              to
                              > point them out. So I welcome them most of all as we both learn that
                              > way:-)
                              >
                              > I always thought the sprit boom leg o' mutton was about the best rig
                              for
                              > simplicity and performance, being self-vanging and how you can adjust
                              > the draft by adjusting the snotter. But it requires such a tall mast
                              to
                              > get any area and tall tapered masts are not the easiest things to make
                              > as well as man-handle and travel with. Plus, in order to have easy
                              > reefing they need sail track.
                              >
                              >
                              > Then the more I looked at lugsail rigs the more I saw how advantageous
                              > they are. Especially once understanding the necessity of keeping the
                              > luff tight and the joys of jiffy reefing along with some other tweaks.
                              > As Ross Lillistone mentions you can make them simple as can be and
                              then
                              > experiment with tweaks for years with just a bit of added string.
                              >
                              >
                              > Then you can get into the Mik Storer levels with full battens dyneema
                              > lines and sheet bridles and on and on. So my latest wondering is about
                              > those mainsheet bridles with a traveller, 3 blocks and 3 attachment
                              > points to the boom like on the GIS?
                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I surmised this was to bring the mainsheet closer to hand when hiking
                              > out over the rail but apparently it also helps to control boom bend.
                              If
                              > you have the boom tacked down at the forward end and the sheet tied at
                              > the back end then the boom will bend in the middle and throw off the
                              > shape of the sail. As the wind increases the sail becomes fuller at a
                              > time when you want to flatten it. Any comments on that?
                              >
                              > And I got further confirmation about what Anders says about a higher
                              > peaked gaff tends to twist less than a lower peaked gaff. John
                              Welsford
                              > says it does twist a bit when hit with a gust but immediately spills
                              > excess wind off the peak as the gaff bends there and is actually and
                              > advantage for maintaining control and heeling.
                              >
                              > And a final word from the sail guru, Todd Bradshaw. When making a
                              > sail, the degree of yard and boom stiffness or lack thereof has to be
                              > known when shaping the sail. And he goes on to explain how to test
                              your
                              > rig to see how well it does in that regard. He feels this is one area
                              > the polysail makers have not taken into account. Comments?
                              >
                              > John, the "prairie dog" moniker was was from way back to when I lived
                              on
                              > the prairies and my business then was called "Prairie Dog
                              Distributors".
                              > A lot of my customers called me Prairie Dog as a result.
                              >
                              > Nels
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "jhargrovewright2@" wrote:
                              > >
                              > > My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of
                              your
                              > posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have
                              > anything to add or a worthwhile comment. Nels, II always read you.
                              > Woops, I do have a question....why prairiedog? JIB
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • CHARLES
                              A couple of things, Dave-First, there have been MANY boats who completed the Texas200 with polytarp sails. To me, that fact alone proves the viability of the
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 28, 2013
                                A couple of things, Dave-First, there have been MANY boats who completed the Texas200 with polytarp sails. To me, that fact alone proves the viability of the material. I know of a few who have successfully completed the event with polytarp sails that weren't even sewn (ie:taped only). In terms of construction, they are so much easier to work with than Dacron, the sewing machine that my wife uses for quilting will easily sew through several layers of polytarp. Sewing more than 2 layers of Dacron are just not possible with most cheap machines.

                                Regarding the darts-Jim's 75 foot polytarp lugsail performed better upwind with the dart than without on a boat I built a couple of years ago . That said, I have seen lots of polytarp sails that did well upwind with no darts, shaped only by the rounding of the edges.

                                Dave, to me you are right up there with Bolger and Michalak in terms of how your work has changed the way things are done in the world of small boats. I appreciate you, your scholarly approach to the subject, and your willingness to share what you have learned. Thank you.

                                Chuck P



                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "PolySail_Dave" <polysail@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Nels,
                                >
                                > You asked for comments from PolySail makers on sail guru Todd Bradshaw's
                                > observations that PolySail makers don't take the degree of yard and boom
                                > stiffness and other technical factors into account when constructing
                                > [lug] sails. Since I am the one who created the name PolySail, I assume
                                > he means me, and I am happy to respond.
                                >
                                > First, let me say that I know Mr. Bradshaw's work well, and that every
                                > sail of his that I have seen online is exceptional in appearance. I
                                > suspect that each of those sails is also an excellent performer when
                                > properly rigged and I give him credit for his extensive knowledge when
                                > it comes to working with Dacron and other traditional sailmaking
                                > materials and perhaps many of today's high tech laminates. I'm also well
                                > aware of his oft-stated opinions that our PolySails essentially don't
                                > measure up to "real sails" on any level because we don't know nothin'
                                > about buildin' sails the way they is supposed to be built.
                                >
                                > Occasionally, one of Mr. Bradshaw's rants concerning our understanding
                                > of sailmaking and our instructions on making particular types of sails
                                > have aligned with our testing or for some other reason hits home, and I
                                > have made changes to specific instructions as a result. For those
                                > moments of insight and helpfulness, I thank him. But many of his
                                > demeaning comments I simply dismiss because he works with different
                                > materials than I do in sailmaking, and I doubt that he has nearly the
                                > knowledge of differing polyethylene tarps and their stretch
                                > characteristics or suitability as sail materials as I think I do. I
                                > give myself credit for working with polytarp for 17 years, and I believe
                                > I know its limitations and capabilities fairly well by now. I've had it
                                > tested to destruction with other sail materials on sophisticated
                                > machinery; I've done strip testing myself of three different weights of
                                > poytarp to help me understand their differing stretch characteristics
                                > under variable pressures; and I've received plenty of feedback from
                                > customers over the years on polytarp performance and durability. The
                                > long and short of all this is that I've concluded that some polytarp is
                                > very good material for particular types of sails, the material doesn't
                                > cost very much, it's great for testing and experimentation, and it opens
                                > up sailing to many who might otherwise be put off from trying the sport
                                > based on its reputation for exclusivity and by the jargon and "gurus" of
                                > the sailing world.
                                >
                                > To hark back to your initial post on lug sails, Nels, you mentioned that
                                > Bolger thought lugs were easy to make and that "awning makers" could
                                > make one. Phil might have been exaggerating to make a point, but I think
                                > he was probably right that it doesn't require his Naval Architect's
                                > degree to make a decently performing lug sail. Emiliano Marino, aka
                                > Raven, the Sail Doctor, who writes a column in Small Craft Advisor, and
                                > was the author of The Sailmaker's Apprentice takes a similar approach,
                                > saying at one point that "...perfectly acceptable sails may be made from
                                > Tyvek, polyethylene tarps, London Fog raincoat material, bag nylon, or
                                > tent canvas--not to mention old sails." I might be mistaken, but I
                                > believe I recall that the lug sail on Graham's Rogue on John Welsford's
                                > page is one I built for him. Did you immediately identify it as polytarp
                                > and conclude the boat wouldn't sail well? (I have the same photo of the
                                > Rogue in one of the shots that was sent to me by a customer down under,
                                > and I do recall building a couple of Rogue sails for customers in
                                > Australia or New Zealand.) To me, the performance of polytarp sails is
                                > well-proven. Polytarp lug sails made by me and others have always
                                > performed well on PDRacers in the Worlds competition. Brad Hickman won
                                > with one of my lug sails in 2011 even though I didn't ask him about his
                                > stiffness. One of our kit lugs placed third last year to a well sailed,
                                > Laser sail equipped PDR and a large sailboard sail on another. Mike
                                > Monies and Andy Linn managed to run most of the 2011 EC with our lug
                                > sail, then Mike campaigned it on SCAMP #2 throughout the year before it
                                > was replaced with the "official" SCA sail in early 2012 at Lake Havasu.
                                > However, before the polytarp sail was changed out, (According to Jackie
                                > Monies" account) Mike won his class with the polysail lug, then raced
                                > again with the new sail and placed second (obviously, a tuning issue.) I
                                > believe a few boats have managed to sail the entire Texas 200 with
                                > polytarp sails. In my mind polytarp lug sails are much like Jim
                                > Michalak's boats--they're usually cheap to build, easy to put together,
                                > and perform unexpectedly well. What more could you ask for, especially
                                > if you are sailing one of Jim's or Phil's designs? As a novice, I first
                                > turned to polytarp in 1996 because I didn't want to pay more for a sail
                                > than I paid to build my new Bolger Cartopper. I firmly believe there's
                                > still very much a place for polytarp sails in spite of some people's
                                > efforts to discredit them and in spite of some truly awful first efforts
                                > by first time sailmakers and sailors with some not so good hardware
                                > store tarps.
                                >
                                > Finally, to get back to Todd's comment that we PolySail makers don't pay
                                > enough attention to technical details of sailmaking like spar and boom
                                > stiffness. He might be right there, but then--maybe we don't have to
                                > give it our attention because of the way our material behaves--and maybe
                                > he does. His materials and ours are , perhaps, at two different extremes
                                > in the sailing world. (Actually, I do sometimes ask customers about some
                                > details, such as the material they are using for their yard, boom, and
                                > mast, especially when I think they might have an answer and it's
                                > important to them that I ask. But I can't recall ever asking them about
                                > their stiffness and passing it off as essential to know for sailmaking.)
                                > As for rigging, I point customers both to Michael Storer's site, and to
                                > the chapter on lug sails in David Nichols' book The Working Guide to
                                > Traditional Small Boat Sails. Nichols shows several options for rigging
                                > the traditional lug. Both are great resources for me and for my
                                > customers because I confess to knowing very little about rigging a lug
                                > sail myself and these are good people to learn from.
                                >
                                > Dave Gray
                                >
                                > By the way, does anyone know if Jim still recommends putting that huge
                                > tack dart in polytarp lug sails? I know at one time he had a math
                                > formula all worked out for sizing that dart. I think Chuck and Sandra
                                > Leinweber included that dart when they made their first polytarp sail
                                > from one of our kits for their Michalak Caprice, and, as I've come to
                                > expect from polytarp, it performed well on that boat whether in spite of
                                > or because of that dart. Like me, polytarp is a very forgiving material.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > > The only thing I wonder about is if folks see errors and don't bother
                                > to
                                > > point them out. So I welcome them most of all as we both learn that
                                > > way:-)
                                > >
                                > > I always thought the sprit boom leg o' mutton was about the best rig
                                > for
                                > > simplicity and performance, being self-vanging and how you can adjust
                                > > the draft by adjusting the snotter. But it requires such a tall mast
                                > to
                                > > get any area and tall tapered masts are not the easiest things to make
                                > > as well as man-handle and travel with. Plus, in order to have easy
                                > > reefing they need sail track.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Then the more I looked at lugsail rigs the more I saw how advantageous
                                > > they are. Especially once understanding the necessity of keeping the
                                > > luff tight and the joys of jiffy reefing along with some other tweaks.
                                > > As Ross Lillistone mentions you can make them simple as can be and
                                > then
                                > > experiment with tweaks for years with just a bit of added string.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Then you can get into the Mik Storer levels with full battens dyneema
                                > > lines and sheet bridles and on and on. So my latest wondering is about
                                > > those mainsheet bridles with a traveller, 3 blocks and 3 attachment
                                > > points to the boom like on the GIS?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I surmised this was to bring the mainsheet closer to hand when hiking
                                > > out over the rail but apparently it also helps to control boom bend.
                                > If
                                > > you have the boom tacked down at the forward end and the sheet tied at
                                > > the back end then the boom will bend in the middle and throw off the
                                > > shape of the sail. As the wind increases the sail becomes fuller at a
                                > > time when you want to flatten it. Any comments on that?
                                > >
                                > > And I got further confirmation about what Anders says about a higher
                                > > peaked gaff tends to twist less than a lower peaked gaff. John
                                > Welsford
                                > > says it does twist a bit when hit with a gust but immediately spills
                                > > excess wind off the peak as the gaff bends there and is actually and
                                > > advantage for maintaining control and heeling.
                                > >
                                > > And a final word from the sail guru, Todd Bradshaw. When making a
                                > > sail, the degree of yard and boom stiffness or lack thereof has to be
                                > > known when shaping the sail. And he goes on to explain how to test
                                > your
                                > > rig to see how well it does in that regard. He feels this is one area
                                > > the polysail makers have not taken into account. Comments?
                                > >
                                > > John, the "prairie dog" moniker was was from way back to when I lived
                                > on
                                > > the prairies and my business then was called "Prairie Dog
                                > Distributors".
                                > > A lot of my customers called me Prairie Dog as a result.
                                > >
                                > > Nels
                                > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "jhargrovewright2@" wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > My I express the same. Just because we do not respond to each of
                                > your
                                > > posts.....many of us study each word and link.....but we do not have
                                > > anything to add or a worthwhile comment. Nels, II always read you.
                                > > Woops, I do have a question....why prairiedog? JIB
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • jhargrovewright2@juno.com
                                Chuck P. You have just coined a phrase.... Dave is our Polysail Rockstar. His efforts and vision have created a movement in our sailboat culture. A solo
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 28, 2013
                                  Chuck P. You have just coined a phrase.... Dave is our Polysail Rockstar. His efforts and vision have created a movement in our sailboat culture. A solo artist in the genre (the term usually implies celebrity status, or stardom). I have never had a failure with the material or methods. I only sew when I know the sail will be used for years and have never had a failure....of the material or methods. I am a believer... JIB


                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • prairiedog2332
                                  Dave, Thanks for your information rich response. I should clarify that when I referred to Todd as sail guru it was intended tongue in cheek. And I did
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 28, 2013
                                    Dave,

                                    Thanks for your information rich response.

                                    I should clarify that when I referred to Todd as "sail guru" it was
                                    intended tongue in cheek. And I did mention somewhere that an expensive
                                    sail on a cheap boat or a cheap sail on an expensive boat are probably
                                    not the best options. And I have followed your extensive R&D quite
                                    closely over the years regarding materials and shaping of polytarp
                                    sails.

                                    One thing that occurs to me is that the hand workmanship and sewing
                                    involved - no matter what the sail material - can really add up
                                    time-wise, let alone the cost of proper fittings like grommets, bolt
                                    ropes, corner re-enforcement and so on. Plus the space required to lay
                                    out the materials and measure and cut them, and a good sewing machine.
                                    Then packaging for shipment and invoicing and keeping a sail making
                                    business going plus responding to countless queries;-)

                                    If one takes the time and makes the effort to consider all the options
                                    for refined tweaking like Todd considers important , then the price of
                                    the finished product becomes more than perhaps the market will bear, or
                                    you end up working for nothing. So compromises are always a necessary
                                    part of it.

                                    My feeling is that your sails match pretty closely the philosophy of
                                    Jim's boat designs and no doubt get more folks out sailing than any
                                    other design philosophies.

                                    Nels


                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "PolySail_Dave" wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Nels,
                                    >
                                    > You asked for comments from PolySail makers on sail guru Todd
                                    Bradshaw's
                                    > observations that PolySail makers don't take the degree of yard and
                                    boom
                                    > stiffness and other technical factors into account when constructing
                                    > [lug] sails. Since I am the one who created the name PolySail, I
                                    assume
                                    > he means me, and I am happy to respond.




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • PolySail_Dave
                                    Nels, John, Chuck, Paul, Mike, and others, thanks for your expressions of support. But I m not ready to be compared with any of those giants of small boat
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 28, 2013
                                      Nels, John, Chuck, Paul, Mike, and others, thanks for your expressions
                                      of support. But I'm not ready to be compared with any of those giants of
                                      small boat design that a couple of you have mentioned. There is plenty
                                      of room for criticism of some of the instructions for making individual
                                      sails on my library page sail database, and all of my web pages probably
                                      could use updating. I am constantly learning about and hopefully
                                      refining some of my own construction techniques when it comes to working
                                      with various tarp sails, but there is only so much time available as
                                      Nels points out below. Those of you who follow along with my PolySail
                                      International Facebook page, are probably aware of how many sails I
                                      crank out in a week and some of the daily issues I face in keeping this
                                      little operation above water. I try to post photos, including dimension
                                      tags, of most of the sails I make on Facebook as often as I can, but the
                                      more popular "finished" sails, like the 60 sq. ft. leg o' muttons that
                                      are white on white, often don't get mentioned, much less photographed.

                                      Nels, I did take notice of your point about cheap sails on expensive
                                      boats and expensive sails on cheap boats and intended to mention it in
                                      my earlier response because I thought it was an excellent point. I'm
                                      also glad that you opened the door for me to reply to some pretty
                                      serious criticism that's been posted for all to see on the Wooden Boat
                                      forum and might even have been damaging to our business in recent years.
                                      My wife and I have often talked about whether I should write responses
                                      to some of those passionate anti-polytarp sail posts that come up if
                                      you search for polysails or polytarp sails on the Wooden Boat Forum. But
                                      so far, we've decided that it's probably better to let that issue alone
                                      on that particular forum for fear that nearly all of our time would be
                                      taken up trying to keep up with multiple posts and that we might not
                                      find as much support among the members of that particular forum. We
                                      would really have to have our house in order before taking on that
                                      group, I believe.

                                      In the meantime, your responses have encouraged me, and I might yet go
                                      forward with some plans to work on a Polytarp Sailmaker's Apprentice
                                      that I've talked with Raven the Sail Doctor about, or fix up my web
                                      site, or do some workshops, or even take on the sail "guru" on the
                                      Wooden Boat Forum. However, in reality, I'll probably be content if I
                                      can just get one of those things done before my next retirement.

                                      Dave Gray




                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dave,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your information rich response.
                                      >
                                      > I should clarify that when I referred to Todd as "sail guru" it was
                                      > intended tongue in cheek. And I did mention somewhere that an
                                      expensive
                                      > sail on a cheap boat or a cheap sail on an expensive boat are probably
                                      > not the best options. And I have followed your extensive R&D quite
                                      > closely over the years regarding materials and shaping of polytarp
                                      > sails.
                                      >
                                      > One thing that occurs to me is that the hand workmanship and sewing
                                      > involved - no matter what the sail material - can really add up
                                      > time-wise, let alone the cost of proper fittings like grommets, bolt
                                      > ropes, corner re-enforcement and so on. Plus the space required to lay
                                      > out the materials and measure and cut them, and a good sewing machine.
                                      > Then packaging for shipment and invoicing and keeping a sail making
                                      > business going plus responding to countless queries;-)
                                      >
                                      > If one takes the time and makes the effort to consider all the options
                                      > for refined tweaking like Todd considers important , then the price of
                                      > the finished product becomes more than perhaps the market will bear,
                                      or
                                      > you end up working for nothing. So compromises are always a necessary
                                      > part of it.
                                      >
                                      > My feeling is that your sails match pretty closely the philosophy of
                                      > Jim's boat designs and no doubt get more folks out sailing than any
                                      > other design philosophies.
                                      >
                                      > Nels
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "PolySail_Dave" wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Nels,
                                      > >
                                      > > You asked for comments from PolySail makers on sail guru Todd
                                      > Bradshaw's
                                      > > observations that PolySail makers don't take the degree of yard and
                                      > boom
                                      > > stiffness and other technical factors into account when constructing
                                      > > [lug] sails. Since I am the one who created the name PolySail, I
                                      > assume
                                      > > he means me, and I am happy to respond.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • simonfbroad
                                      Hi all, I ve come in late to this thread, and haven t read it all, but thought I would put my 2c worth in anyway. I have had a few communications (on WB forum)
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 28, 2013
                                        Hi all,

                                        I've come in late to this thread, and haven't read it all, but thought I would put my 2c worth in anyway.
                                        I have had a few communications (on WB forum) with Todd Bradshaw while I was making my first sail.
                                        In all my discussions he never demeaned polytarp as a sail material to me, quite the reverse, he just pointed out that you had to work with the specific properties of sail material you were working with.
                                        Delving deeper into the process it appeared to me that his dislike of the darted style of sailmaking is largely due to his belief that with all the math and all the work in getting it right, it wasn't really much more difficult to make a sail using 'proper' (read traditional) methods, regardless of the material used.
                                        I took up that challenge and made my polytarp sail (to Todd's design) using traditional methods, cutting my polytarp into 'bolts' and broadseeming with double sided tape. It took me one evening in the lounge room measuring and cutting, and one afternoon on the driveway marking out and broadseeming the panels together, and one more evening tidying up the edges, reinforcing the corners and putting the eyelets in.
                                        What I learned about sails in the process was probably more valuable to me than the sail itself.

                                        Does Todd rant on a bit, certainly. Is he a little too critical at times, probably. But he always takes the time to explain his opinions, the guy is passionate about what he does and I think we can all relate to that.


                                        As to JM's darts design for making a sail, I believe all his essays on the subject are available on line, but would point out that I have bought a couple of Jim's plans (Fat Cat and Mayfly 16) and both give the measurements to make sails by traditional methods.

                                        cheers
                                        Simon.
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