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Re: [Michalak] square vs lug > Re: Oseberg Viking Ship

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  • Andres Espino
    Most lugg sails do not have the mast neat the center of the sail.. rather near the leading edge with no more than 10% of the sail fwd of the mast.  Some
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 18, 2013
      Most lugg sails do not have the mast neat the center of the sail.. rather near the leading edge with no more than 10% of the sail fwd of the mast.  Some luggers attach to the mast a lot like a Gaff sail.  A balanced lufg or standing lug will foprm a curvature that allows sailing to windward fairly well  Checkk the pic on our Pelican-Sail page for racing Pelicans with a lug rig.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pelican-sail/


      My last sharpie was Gaff rigged and I could not tack closer than about 50 degrees off windward,  That is similar to many non cambered junk sails.  Many of the old square sail ships like the Mayflower could not sail well with winds forward of the beam say 10 oclock or 2 oclock.


      Andrew



      ________________________________
      From: Roger Padvorac <roger@...>
      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:58 PM
      Subject: [Michalak] square vs lug > Re: Oseberg Viking Ship



       
      Okay, I can't help myself here, and have to ask this question.

      When there is a single sail, what is the difference between a square rigged sail, and a lug rigged sail that happens to be squarish in shape, with the mast positioned near the center of the sail?

      Sincerely,
      Roger

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    • Roger Padvorac
      John, Thanks so much. I think this was the missing piece of the picture for me. Thanks to everybody else who helped fill in the details. The picture I m seeing
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 23, 2013
        John,
        Thanks so much. I think this was the missing piece of the picture for me. Thanks to everybody else who helped fill in the details.

        The picture I'm seeing now, is regardless of what shape the "square" sail is, the key point is that the sail is symmetrical from side to side, and this includes the rigging. Both sides of the sail need the rigging needed for being both the luff edge and for the leech edge, of the sail.

        An example of this is that Bolger's book on rigging shows a pole being used on a single square sail to help keep the windward edge of the sail from badly sagging. Since its a square sail, both sides of the sail will need to be equipped to support the use of the pole for when that side of the sail is to the windward.

        After I saw this, I realized another key difference is that the yard for the square sail is rotated around the mast, as first one edge and then the other edge of the sail is shifted to be the windward edge. With a lug sail, if the yard is moved, it is moved from one to the other side of the mast because the same end of the yard is always to the windward. So the yard used for lug rigging will always have just luff related rigging at one end, and just leech related rigging at the other end.

        * * * * * * * *
        Thinking a bit about the discussion Nels shared, about how there were likely many incremental changes that eventually resulted in the lug sail, I can see how somebody could have slid the yard for a square sail back a bit on the mast, in an effort to sail closer to the wind because this would probably have made it easier to keep the windward edge of the sail from sagging too badly.

        It also follows, as long as the yard is being rotated around the mast, to bring the other edge of the sail to the windward when tacking or jibbing, then the rigging for this yard and sail is still being used as "square" sail rigging.

        Possibly the most useful distinction for me, is that as soon as the same edge of the sail (and the same end of the yard supporting the sail) is always to the windward, then it is lug sail rigging, not square sail rigging. At least this seems so to me now. Is this correct?

        As soon as the yard wasn't being rotated around the mast, and one end was always to the windward, then this allowed one end of the yard and sail to evolve luff specializations and the other end to evolve leech specializations and over time become increasingly less symmetrical from side to side.

        * * * * * * * *
        After hearing about all the different compensations that can be done with a single square sail, to improve its efficiency as first one edge, and then the other is rotated to face into the wind, its no surprise at all that the large ships with many square sails, especially when there were multiple layers of square sails above the decks, couldn't sail as close to the wind as smaller boats could with a single square sail. That would be just too many sails, with many of them too far above the deck, to do all of the minor adjustments that are feasible to do when there is a single square sail with its bottom edge close to the deck.

        I really appreciate all this discussion, not only do I understand the difference of square and lug sails much better now, I have a better understanding of how each of them works.

        Andrew, thanks for the pointer for information about racing with lug sails. In his book on rigging, Bolger has a lot of positive things to say about lug sails and their strengths.

        I think I still had a bit of the mainstream sailing biases in me that I didn't know about, and so on some level I still had been discounting lug sails a bit. As I get older, simplicity is becoming more and more essential in my life. So its finally sinking in to my mind, that not only are lug sails one of the simplest kinds of sails, they are also efficient and powerful. So if your goal is simple, easy going, messing around on the water, then why mess around with more complicated sails and rigging?

        Well, one answer is doing historical boats which used square sails, which is how this thread got started :)

        The Salish used square sails on their canoes, so possibly one day I might try messing around with that.

        Sincerely,
        Roger

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...>
        To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 3:33 PM
        Subject: Re: [Michalak] square vs lug > Re: Oseberg Viking Ship


        >A lugsail has one permanent luff, that's always the leading edge of the
        > sail.
        >
        > A square sail uses whichever edge of the sail is to windward as the luff.
        > After tacking or wearing onto the other tack, the edge of the sail that
        > used to be the leech becomes the luff, and the former luff becomes the
        > leech. So square sails have to be true rectangles, symmetrical on each
        > side of the mast.
        >


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