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Re: Oseberg Viking Ship

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  • prairiedog2332
    In this photo it looks to me like the crew is in the process of swinging the sail around from the port side to starboard side of the mast. And in the next
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 16, 2013
      In this photo it looks to me like the crew is in the process of swinging
      the sail around from the port side to starboard side of the mast. And in
      the next photo the yard is also on the other side. You can see the
      lines they are hauling on attached to what was previously the leach and
      now about to become the luff. A "typical" square rigger never did that
      as far as I know but the luggers are able to do it.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.5950436871\
      75212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1
      <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.595043687\
      175212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1>


      Bolger wrote that there were many control lines that never survived
      reclamation form the digs - but from the sagas - it was obvious to him
      the vessels were capable of making good progress to weather. Seems they
      have replicated the sail plan and all the lines required quite well.

      Nels

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
      >
      > Not a dipping lug, but a typical square rigger.
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • john colley
      many square rigged ships could makeway to windward by turning their sails fore and aft.like the Vikings.Its all in the control lines of course.I think you may
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 17, 2013
        many square rigged ships could makeway to windward by turning their sails fore and aft.like the Vikings.Its all in the control lines of course.I think you may find that lugs of any sort came later.Possibly a modification of what we saw in the video.All viking ships were square rigged.


         
        "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
        -Sigurd Olson


        ________________________________
        From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013 2:09 AM
        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Oseberg Viking Ship



         
        In this photo it looks to me like the crew is in the process of swinging
        the sail around from the port side to starboard side of the mast. And in
        the next photo the yard is also on the other side. You can see the
        lines they are hauling on attached to what was previously the leach and
        now about to become the luff. A "typical" square rigger never did that
        as far as I know but the luggers are able to do it.

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.5950436871\
        75212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1
        <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.595043687\
        175212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1>

        Bolger wrote that there were many control lines that never survived
        reclamation form the digs - but from the sagas - it was obvious to him
        the vessels were capable of making good progress to weather. Seems they
        have replicated the sail plan and all the lines required quite well.

        Nels

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
        >
        > Not a dipping lug, but a typical square rigger.
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gary
        In many ways the fishing boats of Shetland and Ireland preserved the Viking heritage - a strong hint as to sail config can be seen in photo s like these:
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 17, 2013
          In many ways the fishing boats of Shetland and Ireland preserved the Viking heritage - a strong hint as to sail config can be seen in photo's like these:
          http://shetlopedia.com/images/thumb/5/56/Sailing-sixareen.jpg/250px-Sailing-sixareen.jpg
          http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/shetland-sixareen-takes-shape.html
          http://www.shetlandheritageshop.com/The-Sixareen.html
          You could have fun argueing whether its a loose footed lug or a squaresail - or an evolutionary step between - but the fore and aft configuration is there.
          Cheers
          Gary

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
          >
          > many square rigged ships could makeway to windward by turning their sails fore and aft.like the Vikings.Its all in the control lines of course.I think you may find that lugs of any sort came later.Possibly a modification of what we saw in the video.All viking ships were square rigged.
          >
          >
          >  
          > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
          > -Sigurd Olson
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013 2:09 AM
          > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Oseberg Viking Ship
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          > In this photo it looks to me like the crew is in the process of swinging
          > the sail around from the port side to starboard side of the mast. And in
          > the next photo the yard is also on the other side. You can see the
          > lines they are hauling on attached to what was previously the leach and
          > now about to become the luff. A "typical" square rigger never did that
          > as far as I know but the luggers are able to do it.
          >
          > https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.5950436871\
          > 75212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1
          > <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.595043687\
          > 175212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1>
          >
          > Bolger wrote that there were many control lines that never survived
          > reclamation form the digs - but from the sagas - it was obvious to him
          > the vessels were capable of making good progress to weather. Seems they
          > have replicated the sail plan and all the lines required quite well.
          >
          > Nels
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Not a dipping lug, but a typical square rigger.
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Andrew Wallace
          Thr Sixareen is beautiful and fascinating. One question - as there were no trees on Shetland (climate always too wild and windy), where did the timber come
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 17, 2013
            Thr Sixareen is beautiful and fascinating.
            One question - as there were no trees on Shetland (climate always too wild and windy), where did the timber come from when these vessels were produced as working boats? Norway perhaps?
            Andrew,
            New Zealand.

            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            From: gajmcdonald@...
            Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:17:38 +0000
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Oseberg Viking Ship


























            In many ways the fishing boats of Shetland and Ireland preserved the Viking heritage - a strong hint as to sail config can be seen in photo's like these:

            http://shetlopedia.com/images/thumb/5/56/Sailing-sixareen.jpg/250px-Sailing-sixareen.jpg

            http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/shetland-sixareen-takes-shape.html

            http://www.shetlandheritageshop.com/The-Sixareen.html

            You could have fun argueing whether its a loose footed lug or a squaresail - or an evolutionary step between - but the fore and aft configuration is there.

            Cheers

            Gary



            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:

            >

            > many square rigged ships could makeway to windward by turning their sails fore and aft.like the Vikings.Its all in the control lines of course.I think you may find that lugs of any sort came later.Possibly a modification of what we saw in the video.All viking ships were square rigged.

            >

            >

            > �

            > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."

            > -Sigurd Olson

            >

            >

            > ________________________________

            > From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>

            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com

            > Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2013 2:09 AM

            > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Oseberg Viking Ship

            >

            >

            >

            > �

            > In this photo it looks to me like the crew is in the process of swinging

            > the sail around from the port side to starboard side of the mast. And in

            > the next photo the yard is also on the other side. You can see the

            > lines they are hauling on attached to what was previously the leach and

            > now about to become the luff. A "typical" square rigger never did that

            > as far as I know but the luggers are able to do it.

            >

            > https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.5950436871\

            > 75212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1

            > <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=595044510508463&set=a.595043687\

            > 175212.1073741826.122005524479033&type=1&permPage=1>

            >

            > Bolger wrote that there were many control lines that never survived

            > reclamation form the digs - but from the sagas - it was obvious to him

            > the vessels were capable of making good progress to weather. Seems they

            > have replicated the sail plan and all the lines required quite well.

            >

            > Nels

            >

            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@> wrote:

            > >

            > > Not a dipping lug, but a typical square rigger.

            > >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • prairiedog2332
            Andrew, Yes definitely - a lot of the wood came from Norway. I read an article in a British magazine about that and also saw it confirmed elsewhere. The Norse
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 18, 2013
              Andrew,

              Yes definitely - a lot of the wood came from Norway. I read an article
              in a British magazine about that and also saw it confirmed elsewhere.
              The Norse had colonized the Shetlands as early as the 8th and 9th
              centuries. Later on they came there to fish as well and instead of
              coming back empty brought wood as ballast and it was already in a form
              that could be used to build boats for the locals. The original boat
              kits! And of course the designs were Scandinavian including the sail
              rigs, which later evolved into lug rigs.


              Viking ships had to develop the ability to tack reliably as their home
              waters were long narrow fiords and estuaries and rivers. The big square
              riggers did not have that restriction as they operated in areas with
              much more sea room. I read of one fellow's more recent experience as
              crew on a tall ship over three seasons. He recalled they only tried
              tacking 9 times and were successful on 3 occasions. When a square rigger
              got hung up in irons it was a real mess trying to get under way again
              and quite often lead to running aground if caught off a lee shore.


              The ability of a square sail to got to windward depends on a tight
              leading edge or luff set in clean air, combined with controlling the
              sail shape so a single large sail works best I would think. What we see
              as a square sail is when the yard is located at exactly the half way
              point on the mast. On a lugger the yard is located forward of half-way
              and the weight of the aft section helps keep the luff tight, while the
              area of the sail behind the mast helps keep the rig pointed upwind.

              Bolger says this about the dipping lug; "It was the most powerful
              windward sail possible with primitive technology."

              Nels


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Wallace wrote:
              >
              > Thr Sixareen is beautiful and fascinating.
              > One question - as there were no trees on Shetland (climate always too
              wild and windy), where did the timber come from when these vessels were
              produced as working boats? Norway perhaps?
              > Andrew,
              > New Zealand.
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike Graf
              All very cool! Now I have another reason,besides those fabulous ponies, to go to Shetland/Orkney Islands ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 18, 2013
                All very cool! Now I have another reason,besides those fabulous ponies,
                to go to Shetland/Orkney Islands



                On 04/18/2013 12:09 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
                >
                > Andrew,
                >
                > Yes definitely - a lot of the wood came from Norway. I read an article
                > in a British magazine about that and also saw it confirmed elsewhere.
                > The Norse had colonized the Shetlands as early as the 8th and 9th
                > centuries. Later on they came there to fish as well and instead of
                > coming back empty brought wood as ballast and it was already in a form
                > that could be used to build boats for the locals. The original boat
                > kits! And of course the designs were Scandinavian including the sail
                > rigs, which later evolved into lug rigs.
                >
                > Viking ships had to develop the ability to tack reliably as their home
                > waters were long narrow fiords and estuaries and rivers. The big square
                > riggers did not have that restriction as they operated in areas with
                > much more sea room. I read of one fellow's more recent experience as
                > crew on a tall ship over three seasons. He recalled they only tried
                > tacking 9 times and were successful on 3 occasions. When a square rigger
                > got hung up in irons it was a real mess trying to get under way again
                > and quite often lead to running aground if caught off a lee shore.
                >
                > The ability of a square sail to got to windward depends on a tight
                > leading edge or luff set in clean air, combined with controlling the
                > sail shape so a single large sail works best I would think. What we see
                > as a square sail is when the yard is located at exactly the half way
                > point on the mast. On a lugger the yard is located forward of half-way
                > and the weight of the aft section helps keep the luff tight, while the
                > area of the sail behind the mast helps keep the rig pointed upwind.
                >
                > Bolger says this about the dipping lug; "It was the most powerful
                > windward sail possible with primitive technology."
                >
                > Nels
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > Andrew Wallace wrote:
                > >
                > > Thr Sixareen is beautiful and fascinating.
                > > One question - as there were no trees on Shetland (climate always too
                > wild and windy), where did the timber come from when these vessels were
                > produced as working boats? Norway perhaps?
                > > Andrew,
                > > New Zealand.
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Kohnen
                The sixareen sails are clearly dipping lugs. The same edge of the sail is always the luff, no matter which tack the boat is on. It seems likely to me that the
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 18, 2013
                  The sixareen sails are clearly dipping lugs. The same edge of the sail is
                  always the luff, no matter which tack the boat is on. It seems likely to
                  me that the dipping lug evolved from square sails, but I believe some of
                  the experts think they evolved from lateens... <shrug>

                  I can't see the photos of the Viking ship because they're on F***book, and
                  I'm unable to bring myself to logon there, but Viking ships use square
                  sails. On one tack one edge of the sail acts as the luff, and on the other
                  tack the other edge, which had been acting as the leech, becomes the de
                  facto luff. The Vikings used control lines to the edges of the sail to
                  keep the luff tight enough to make pretty good progress to windward.
                  Scandinavians used square sails on small boats well into the modern era,
                  with luff-control lines probably much like what the Vikings used. Perhaps
                  the last survivors are the Nordland boats, now used just for fun.

                  http://preview.tinyurl.com/c9br5fw

                  On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:17:38 -0700, Gary wrote:

                  > In many ways the fishing boats of Shetland and Ireland preserved the
                  > Viking heritage - a strong hint as to sail config can be seen in photo's
                  > like these:
                  > http://shetlopedia.com/images/thumb/5/56/Sailing-sixareen.jpg/250px-Sailing-sixareen.jpg
                  > http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/shetland-sixareen-takes-shape.html
                  > http://www.shetlandheritageshop.com/The-Sixareen.html
                  > You could have fun argueing whether its a loose footed lug or a
                  > squaresail - or an evolutionary step between - but the fore and aft
                  > configuration is there.

                  --
                  John (jkohnen@...)
                  I am not a member of any organized party — I am a Democrat. (Will Rogers)
                • prairiedog2332
                  Okay so this explains the difference and the Oseburg has a rectangular square sail:-) In the photo sequence it shows they are sailing on starboard tack and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 18, 2013
                    Okay so this explains the difference and the Oseburg has a
                    rectangular"square" sail:-)

                    In the photo sequence it shows they are sailing on starboard tack and
                    then seeming to come about. One photo shows the yard on the port side
                    and crew hauling on a luff line attached at two points on the sail. Sort
                    of like a sheetlet configuration on a Junk sail. The forestay is clearly
                    in the way of them hauling the yard further to starboard. Yet in the
                    next photo the yard is now on the starboard side and off they go on a
                    port tack. So how did they get the yard under the forestay? I think
                    they must have hauled down on line to get it under. I thought the only
                    way to do that was to dip the yard under the forestay?

                    So lead me to think a square sail could be dipped like a dipping
                    lugsail. The conventional belief was they had to drop the yard on deck
                    and then walk it around to have enough space to clear the stays. In
                    this sequence they never touched the halyard so found it rather a new
                    realization for me.

                    Nels


                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" wrote:
                    >
                    > The sixareen sails are clearly dipping lugs. The same edge of the sail
                    is
                    > always the luff, no matter which tack the boat is on. It seems likely
                    to
                    > me that the dipping lug evolved from square sails, but I believe some
                    of
                    > the experts think they evolved from lateens...
                    >
                    > I can't see the photos of the Viking ship because they're on F***book,
                    and
                    > I'm unable to bring myself to logon there, but Viking ships use square
                    > sails. On one tack one edge of the sail acts as the luff, and on the
                    other
                    > tack the other edge, which had been acting as the leech, becomes the
                    de
                    > facto luff. The Vikings used control lines to the edges of the sail to
                    > keep the luff tight enough to make pretty good progress to windward.
                    > Scandinavians used square sails on small boats well into the modern
                    era,
                    > with luff-control lines probably much like what the Vikings used.
                    Perhaps
                    > the last survivors are the Nordland boats, now used just for fun.
                    >
                    > http://preview.tinyurl.com/c9br5fw
                    >
                    > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 13:17:38 -0700, Gary wrote:
                    >
                    > > In many ways the fishing boats of Shetland and Ireland preserved the
                    > > Viking heritage - a strong hint as to sail config can be seen in
                    photo's
                    > > like these:
                    > >
                    http://shetlopedia.com/images/thumb/5/56/Sailing-sixareen.jpg/250px-Sail\
                    ing-sixareen.jpg
                    > >
                    http://rowingforpleasure.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/shetland-sixareen-takes\
                    -shape.html
                    > > http://www.shetlandheritageshop.com/The-Sixareen.html
                    > > You could have fun argueing whether its a loose footed lug or a
                    > > squaresail - or an evolutionary step between - but the fore and aft
                    > > configuration is there.
                    >
                    > --
                    > John (jkohnen@...)
                    > I am not a member of any organized party â€" I am a Democrat.
                    (Will Rogers)
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John Kohnen
                    The yard never has to go under the forestay. It pivots at its center. On the starboard (a good Norse-based word ) tack the starboard end of the yard is
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 18, 2013
                      The yard never has to go under the forestay. It pivots at its center. On
                      the starboard (a good Norse-based word <g>) tack the starboard end of the
                      yard is forward, and the starboard edge of the sail acts as the luff. When
                      tacking, the starboard end of the yard is pulled aft until the port end is
                      forward and the port edge of the sail becomes the luff on the larboard
                      tack. No different from a "modern" square-rigger, except that the Viking
                      ship has less standing rigging to get in the way, so it can brace up the
                      yard closer to fore-and-aft. And of course those luff control lines the
                      Norse used...

                      I didn't really mean "rectangle" for describing a square sail. Obviously
                      most are trapezoidal, but I couldn't think of the word for a laterally
                      symmetrical trapezoid. I had to look it up -- "isoceles trapezoid". <g>

                      On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 16:33:31 -0700, Nels wrote:

                      > ...
                      > In the photo sequence it shows they are sailing on starboard tack and
                      > then seeming to come about. One photo shows the yard on the port side
                      > and crew hauling on a luff line attached at two points on the sail. Sort
                      > of like a sheetlet configuration on a Junk sail. The forestay is clearly
                      > in the way of them hauling the yard further to starboard. Yet in the
                      > next photo the yard is now on the starboard side and off they go on a
                      > port tack. So how did they get the yard under the forestay? I think
                      > they must have hauled down on line to get it under. I thought the only
                      > way to do that was to dip the yard under the forestay?
                      > ...

                      --
                      John (jkohnen@...)
                      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
                      safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
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