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Re: Design Influences

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  • prairiedog2332
    Yes of course you are correct John. I guess it got it confused with the plywood version later on and the plans sold in WB Mag. Because of it s hard-chines was
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 5, 2013
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      Yes of course you are correct John. I guess it got it confused with the
      plywood version later on and the plans sold in WB Mag. Because of it's
      hard-chines was not difficult to re-design.

      http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl
      <http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl>

      What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the first to
      promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
      extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.

      Great links - thanks!

      Nels

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Seabird was designed way back in 19-ought something, way before
      waterproof
      > plywood was even a twinkle in some inventor's eye. <g>



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mike Graf
      I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the common man thought it
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 6, 2013
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        I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was
        actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the
        common man thought it LOOKED easier to build!
        I owned one for 6 years....great sailer...REALLY FAST on a broad reach


        On 04/05/2013 04:44 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
        >
        > Yes of course you are correct John. I guess it got it confused with the
        > plywood version later on and the plans sold in WB Mag. Because of it's
        > hard-chines was not difficult to re-design.
        >
        > http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl
        > <http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl>
        >
        > What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the first to
        > promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
        > extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.
        >
        > Great links - thanks!
        >
        > Nels
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Seabird was designed way back in 19-ought something, way before
        > waterproof
        > > plywood was even a twinkle in some inventor's eye. <g>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mark Albanese
        And, too, he was among the first to promote taking a tiny thing like Seabird out into the open ocean, all for recreation, and with the guts to do it himself
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 7, 2013
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          And, too, he was among the first to promote taking a tiny thing like
          Seabird out into the open ocean, all for recreation, and with the
          guts to do it himself first.


          On Apr 5, 2013, at 1:44 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
          > What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the
          > first to
          > promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
          > extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.
          >
        • John Kohnen
          Most of those pre-plywood V-bottom boats LOOK LIKE they d be easy to build using plywood planking. They ve got straight sections, don t they? But in fact
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 8, 2013
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            Most of those pre-plywood V-bottom boats LOOK LIKE they'd be easy to build
            using plywood planking. They've got straight sections, don't they? <g> But
            in fact it's often impossible to make plywood sheets wrap around their
            bottoms because there's _twist_ in the sections. Many boats designed for
            plywood don't have straight sections forward, though they'd be better for
            them, because plywood likes to bow out when you wrap it around a V-bottom.
            And notice how all plywood V-bottom boats have a cut away forefoot to
            reduce twist. Looks can indeed be deceiving. <g>

            For a boat shop a hundred years ago a V-bottom boat would have been harder
            to build, because they were all set up to do round-bottom boats, with a
            steambox, backing out planes, and builders familiar with that
            construction, but a V-bottom _could_ be easier for an amateur, since
            there's little to no steambending (though twist in the bow could make
            fore-and-aft planking troublesome without one). Frames could be made out
            of straight lumber from the lumberyard. The planking wouldn't need to be
            backed out, and external fairing would have been minimal. The transition
            from bottom to topsides near the bow could be tricky, though. Some
            boatbuilders and designers punted and used a chine with rabbets to get
            around that (in plywood boats too!). <g>

            Did your Seabird have a keel, or was it built to the original centerboard
            design? Thomas Fleming Day removed the centerboard of the original and
            added a keel with ballast before doing the transatlantic voyage.

            On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 06:20:09 -0700, Mike G wrote:

            > I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was
            > actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the
            > common man thought it LOOKED easier to build!
            > I owned one for 6 years....great sailer...REALLY FAST on a broad reach
            > ...

            --
            John (jkohnen@...)
            No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. (Niels Bohr)
          • John Kohnen
            I don t know about the outboards for offshore bit, Nels, but that sounds like something Day would do. He was constantly promoting pleasure boating for ordinary
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 8, 2013
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              I don't know about the outboards for offshore bit, Nels, but that sounds
              like something Day would do. He was constantly promoting pleasure boating
              for ordinary people, and gave plenty of space in The Rudder for people to
              write about their adventures with outboards.

              Although he was an avid sailor T. F. Day was also an enthusiastic promoter
              of motorboats. In around 1912 he took a 35' Scripps powered Matthews built
              boat, Detroit, across the Atlantic, one of the first, if not the first,
              ocean crossing voyage in a motorboat.

              An interesting fellow, and The Rudder from back when Day was at the helm
              is a great magazine. Many libraries have bound collections. But ALL those
              old boating magazines were darn good by modern standards. There was a lot
              of the do-it-yourself, self sufficient spirit in boating back then, and
              the magazines would have articles about building your own skiff just a few
              pages away from articles about fancy gold-plated yachts.

              On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:44:26 -0700, Nels wrote:

              > ...
              > What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the first to
              > promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
              > extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.

              --
              John (jkohnen@...)
              The man who is always waving the flag usually waives what it stands for.
              (Laurence J. Peter)
            • Mike Graf
              Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead slugs running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread out sail rig and
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 8, 2013
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                Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead slugs
                running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                many different points of sail

                On 04/08/2013 07:11 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
                > Most of those pre-plywood V-bottom boats LOOK LIKE they'd be easy to build
                > using plywood planking. They've got straight sections, don't they? <g> But
                > in fact it's often impossible to make plywood sheets wrap around their
                > bottoms because there's _twist_ in the sections. Many boats designed for
                > plywood don't have straight sections forward, though they'd be better for
                > them, because plywood likes to bow out when you wrap it around a V-bottom.
                > And notice how all plywood V-bottom boats have a cut away forefoot to
                > reduce twist. Looks can indeed be deceiving. <g>
                >
                > For a boat shop a hundred years ago a V-bottom boat would have been harder
                > to build, because they were all set up to do round-bottom boats, with a
                > steambox, backing out planes, and builders familiar with that
                > construction, but a V-bottom _could_ be easier for an amateur, since
                > there's little to no steambending (though twist in the bow could make
                > fore-and-aft planking troublesome without one). Frames could be made out
                > of straight lumber from the lumberyard. The planking wouldn't need to be
                > backed out, and external fairing would have been minimal. The transition
                > from bottom to topsides near the bow could be tricky, though. Some
                > boatbuilders and designers punted and used a chine with rabbets to get
                > around that (in plywood boats too!). <g>
                >
                > Did your Seabird have a keel, or was it built to the original centerboard
                > design? Thomas Fleming Day removed the centerboard of the original and
                > added a keel with ballast before doing the transatlantic voyage.
                >
                > On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 06:20:09 -0700, Mike G wrote:
                >
                >> I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was
                >> actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the
                >> common man thought it LOOKED easier to build!
                >> I owned one for 6 years....great sailer...REALLY FAST on a broad reach
                >> ...
              • prairiedog2332
                Mike, How were the slugs secured to the bottom? Some additional information here: http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 9, 2013
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                  Mike,
                  How were the slugs secured to the bottom?

                  Some additional information here:

                  http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                  <http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>

                  Nels
                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mike Graf <mgraf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead
                  slugs
                  > running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                  > out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                  > many different points of sail
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mike Graf
                  It s been a while since my wooden boat building school days, but I think they are called bedlogs the 1 1/2 x1 1/2(oak) by the length of the centerboard case
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 9, 2013
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                    It's been a while since my wooden boat building school days, but I think
                    they are called "bedlogs" the 1 1/2 x1 1/2(oak) by the length of the
                    centerboard case that mount the case to the keelson

                    1/4 bronze bolts went down thru the bedlogs...thru the keelson...thru
                    the plywood bilge panel..thru the keel(which was just deep enough to
                    flatten out the rocker,maybe an inch or two @ each end of the
                    centerboard slot and 1/2 in in the middle)...then thru the lead ....the
                    nuts where counter sunk into the lead

                    I believe the boat was built by a Boeing Engineer...he did a good job of
                    it the outside ballast was his build. She sure was stable even w/ a
                    huge marconi rig 425 sq ft

                    I had the boat in her later years and that center board had a steady
                    leak until she filled to a certain point...... rot in the bedlogs
                    Old Squaw was a fine old vessel. Probably the most comfortable 25-26
                    footer I ever sailed I call it a skipjack hull they'll carry a load
                    AND their fast...dry decks



                    On 04/09/2013 09:03 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
                    >
                    > Mike,
                    > How were the slugs secured to the bottom?
                    >
                    > Some additional information here:
                    >
                    > http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                    > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>
                    > <http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                    > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>>
                    >
                    > Nels
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > Mike Graf <mgraf@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead
                    > slugs
                    > > running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                    > > out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                    > > many different points of sail
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mike Graf
                    Nels Great articles,hadn t seen them before Mike ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 9, 2013
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                      Nels
                      Great articles,hadn't seen them before
                      Mike


                      On 04/09/2013 09:03 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
                      >
                      > Mike,
                      > How were the slugs secured to the bottom?
                      >
                      > Some additional information here:
                      >
                      > http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                      > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>
                      > <http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                      > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>>
                      >
                      > Nels
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > Mike Graf <mgraf@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead
                      > slugs
                      > > running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                      > > out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                      > > many different points of sail
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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