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Design Influences

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  • prairiedog2332
    As most of us know, Jim Michalak s designs have been influenced a lot by the work of the late Philip Bolger. But a lot of folks might not realize that William
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 29 8:25 AM
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      As most of us know, Jim Michalak's designs have been influenced a lot by
      the work of the late Philip Bolger. But a lot of folks might not realize
      that William Atkin had a huge influence on Bolger. In fact Bolger admits
      he copied many of his ideas and minutely studied his work and writings
      and was a great admirer of everything he did. Here is a link to "Helga"
      one of the designs that employed leeboards and another link to Gretchen
      that further explains leeboards. And many other designs that are
      interesting at that location.

      http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Helga.html

      http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Gretchen.html

      Both of these folks were in turn influenced by the work of Charles D.
      Mower who was famous for his "Seabird" design (One of the first to use
      plywood as a building material I think) as well as his writings and
      being the design editor for Rudder magazine. Interesting - the D in his
      second name was for "Drown"!

      http://sailboatdata.com/view_designer.asp?DESIGNER_ID=90

      Mower studied yacht design under Bowdoin B. Crowninshield. Just thought
      I would mention that.

      Imagine telling folks your Piccup Pram has a history in the work of
      Bowdoin B. Crowninshield!

      Nels





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Kohnen
      Seabird was designed way back in 19-ought something, way before waterproof plywood was even a twinkle in some inventor s eye. Thomas Fleming Day, editor of
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 5, 2013
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        Seabird was designed way back in 19-ought something, way before waterproof
        plywood was even a twinkle in some inventor's eye. <g> Thomas Fleming Day,
        editor of The Rudder at the time, collaborated with Mower to design a
        seaworthy small boat that would show people that they didn't need to be
        rich to enjoy "yachting." Day, along with TWO(!) crew, sailed the original
        Seabird across the Atlantic in 1911 to prove the point. I've seen Seabirds
        in person, and they're small for a 25-footer. And T. F. Day was a man with
        a strong personality. The crew must have felt the boat get even smaller as
        the voyage progressed. ;o)

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fleming_Day

        B. B. Crowninshield is probably remembered best today for the surviving
        big schooner yachts he designed. A couple:

        http://www.schoonermartha.org/

        http://www.soundexp.org/index.php?page=history

        On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 08:25:07 -0700, Nels wrote:

        > ...
        > Both of these folks were in turn influenced by the work of Charles D.
        > Mower who was famous for his "Seabird" design (One of the first to use
        > plywood as a building material I think) as well as his writings and
        > being the design editor for Rudder magazine. Interesting - the D in his
        > second name was for "Drown"!
        >
        > http://sailboatdata.com/view_designer.asp?DESIGNER_ID=90
        >
        > Mower studied yacht design under Bowdoin B. Crowninshield. Just thought
        > I would mention that.
        >
        > Imagine telling folks your Piccup Pram has a history in the work of
        > Bowdoin B. Crowninshield!

        --
        John (jkohnen@...)
        Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. (Mark
        Twain)
      • prairiedog2332
        Yes of course you are correct John. I guess it got it confused with the plywood version later on and the plans sold in WB Mag. Because of it s hard-chines was
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 5, 2013
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          Yes of course you are correct John. I guess it got it confused with the
          plywood version later on and the plans sold in WB Mag. Because of it's
          hard-chines was not difficult to re-design.

          http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl
          <http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl>

          What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the first to
          promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
          extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.

          Great links - thanks!

          Nels

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
          >
          > Seabird was designed way back in 19-ought something, way before
          waterproof
          > plywood was even a twinkle in some inventor's eye. <g>



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mike Graf
          I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the common man thought it
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 6, 2013
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            I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was
            actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the
            common man thought it LOOKED easier to build!
            I owned one for 6 years....great sailer...REALLY FAST on a broad reach


            On 04/05/2013 04:44 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
            >
            > Yes of course you are correct John. I guess it got it confused with the
            > plywood version later on and the plans sold in WB Mag. Because of it's
            > hard-chines was not difficult to re-design.
            >
            > http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl
            > <http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans-kits/plywood-sea-bird-yawl>
            >
            > What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the first to
            > promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
            > extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.
            >
            > Great links - thanks!
            >
            > Nels
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Seabird was designed way back in 19-ought something, way before
            > waterproof
            > > plywood was even a twinkle in some inventor's eye. <g>
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mark Albanese
            And, too, he was among the first to promote taking a tiny thing like Seabird out into the open ocean, all for recreation, and with the guts to do it himself
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 7, 2013
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              And, too, he was among the first to promote taking a tiny thing like
              Seabird out into the open ocean, all for recreation, and with the
              guts to do it himself first.


              On Apr 5, 2013, at 1:44 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
              > What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the
              > first to
              > promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
              > extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.
              >
            • John Kohnen
              Most of those pre-plywood V-bottom boats LOOK LIKE they d be easy to build using plywood planking. They ve got straight sections, don t they? But in fact
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 8, 2013
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                Most of those pre-plywood V-bottom boats LOOK LIKE they'd be easy to build
                using plywood planking. They've got straight sections, don't they? <g> But
                in fact it's often impossible to make plywood sheets wrap around their
                bottoms because there's _twist_ in the sections. Many boats designed for
                plywood don't have straight sections forward, though they'd be better for
                them, because plywood likes to bow out when you wrap it around a V-bottom.
                And notice how all plywood V-bottom boats have a cut away forefoot to
                reduce twist. Looks can indeed be deceiving. <g>

                For a boat shop a hundred years ago a V-bottom boat would have been harder
                to build, because they were all set up to do round-bottom boats, with a
                steambox, backing out planes, and builders familiar with that
                construction, but a V-bottom _could_ be easier for an amateur, since
                there's little to no steambending (though twist in the bow could make
                fore-and-aft planking troublesome without one). Frames could be made out
                of straight lumber from the lumberyard. The planking wouldn't need to be
                backed out, and external fairing would have been minimal. The transition
                from bottom to topsides near the bow could be tricky, though. Some
                boatbuilders and designers punted and used a chine with rabbets to get
                around that (in plywood boats too!). <g>

                Did your Seabird have a keel, or was it built to the original centerboard
                design? Thomas Fleming Day removed the centerboard of the original and
                added a keel with ballast before doing the transatlantic voyage.

                On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 06:20:09 -0700, Mike G wrote:

                > I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was
                > actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the
                > common man thought it LOOKED easier to build!
                > I owned one for 6 years....great sailer...REALLY FAST on a broad reach
                > ...

                --
                John (jkohnen@...)
                No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. (Niels Bohr)
              • John Kohnen
                I don t know about the outboards for offshore bit, Nels, but that sounds like something Day would do. He was constantly promoting pleasure boating for ordinary
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 8, 2013
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                  I don't know about the outboards for offshore bit, Nels, but that sounds
                  like something Day would do. He was constantly promoting pleasure boating
                  for ordinary people, and gave plenty of space in The Rudder for people to
                  write about their adventures with outboards.

                  Although he was an avid sailor T. F. Day was also an enthusiastic promoter
                  of motorboats. In around 1912 he took a 35' Scripps powered Matthews built
                  boat, Detroit, across the Atlantic, one of the first, if not the first,
                  ocean crossing voyage in a motorboat.

                  An interesting fellow, and The Rudder from back when Day was at the helm
                  is a great magazine. Many libraries have bound collections. But ALL those
                  old boating magazines were darn good by modern standards. There was a lot
                  of the do-it-yourself, self sufficient spirit in boating back then, and
                  the magazines would have articles about building your own skiff just a few
                  pages away from articles about fancy gold-plated yachts.

                  On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:44:26 -0700, Nels wrote:

                  > ...
                  > What I think Day did that was ahead of it's time was being the first to
                  > promote outboards for off-shore work whereas most thought it would be
                  > extremely stupid. But again - I could be wrong.

                  --
                  John (jkohnen@...)
                  The man who is always waving the flag usually waives what it stands for.
                  (Laurence J. Peter)
                • Mike Graf
                  Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead slugs running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread out sail rig and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 8, 2013
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                    Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead slugs
                    running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                    out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                    many different points of sail

                    On 04/08/2013 07:11 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
                    > Most of those pre-plywood V-bottom boats LOOK LIKE they'd be easy to build
                    > using plywood planking. They've got straight sections, don't they? <g> But
                    > in fact it's often impossible to make plywood sheets wrap around their
                    > bottoms because there's _twist_ in the sections. Many boats designed for
                    > plywood don't have straight sections forward, though they'd be better for
                    > them, because plywood likes to bow out when you wrap it around a V-bottom.
                    > And notice how all plywood V-bottom boats have a cut away forefoot to
                    > reduce twist. Looks can indeed be deceiving. <g>
                    >
                    > For a boat shop a hundred years ago a V-bottom boat would have been harder
                    > to build, because they were all set up to do round-bottom boats, with a
                    > steambox, backing out planes, and builders familiar with that
                    > construction, but a V-bottom _could_ be easier for an amateur, since
                    > there's little to no steambending (though twist in the bow could make
                    > fore-and-aft planking troublesome without one). Frames could be made out
                    > of straight lumber from the lumberyard. The planking wouldn't need to be
                    > backed out, and external fairing would have been minimal. The transition
                    > from bottom to topsides near the bow could be tricky, though. Some
                    > boatbuilders and designers punted and used a chine with rabbets to get
                    > around that (in plywood boats too!). <g>
                    >
                    > Did your Seabird have a keel, or was it built to the original centerboard
                    > design? Thomas Fleming Day removed the centerboard of the original and
                    > added a keel with ballast before doing the transatlantic voyage.
                    >
                    > On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 06:20:09 -0700, Mike G wrote:
                    >
                    >> I thought it interesting that the hard chine boat(pre-plywood) was
                    >> actually harder to build than round bottom plank on frame, but the
                    >> common man thought it LOOKED easier to build!
                    >> I owned one for 6 years....great sailer...REALLY FAST on a broad reach
                    >> ...
                  • prairiedog2332
                    Mike, How were the slugs secured to the bottom? Some additional information here: http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 9, 2013
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                      Mike,
                      How were the slugs secured to the bottom?

                      Some additional information here:

                      http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                      <http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>

                      Nels
                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mike Graf <mgraf@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead
                      slugs
                      > running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                      > out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                      > many different points of sail
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mike Graf
                      It s been a while since my wooden boat building school days, but I think they are called bedlogs the 1 1/2 x1 1/2(oak) by the length of the centerboard case
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 9, 2013
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                        It's been a while since my wooden boat building school days, but I think
                        they are called "bedlogs" the 1 1/2 x1 1/2(oak) by the length of the
                        centerboard case that mount the case to the keelson

                        1/4 bronze bolts went down thru the bedlogs...thru the keelson...thru
                        the plywood bilge panel..thru the keel(which was just deep enough to
                        flatten out the rocker,maybe an inch or two @ each end of the
                        centerboard slot and 1/2 in in the middle)...then thru the lead ....the
                        nuts where counter sunk into the lead

                        I believe the boat was built by a Boeing Engineer...he did a good job of
                        it the outside ballast was his build. She sure was stable even w/ a
                        huge marconi rig 425 sq ft

                        I had the boat in her later years and that center board had a steady
                        leak until she filled to a certain point...... rot in the bedlogs
                        Old Squaw was a fine old vessel. Probably the most comfortable 25-26
                        footer I ever sailed I call it a skipjack hull they'll carry a load
                        AND their fast...dry decks



                        On 04/09/2013 09:03 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
                        >
                        > Mike,
                        > How were the slugs secured to the bottom?
                        >
                        > Some additional information here:
                        >
                        > http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                        > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>
                        > <http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                        > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>>
                        >
                        > Nels
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > Mike Graf <mgraf@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead
                        > slugs
                        > > running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                        > > out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                        > > many different points of sail
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Mike Graf
                        Nels Great articles,hadn t seen them before Mike ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 9, 2013
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                          Nels
                          Great articles,hadn't seen them before
                          Mike


                          On 04/09/2013 09:03 PM, prairiedog2332 wrote:
                          >
                          > Mike,
                          > How were the slugs secured to the bottom?
                          >
                          > Some additional information here:
                          >
                          > http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                          > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>
                          > <http://www.sonic.net/~johnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html
                          > <http://www.sonic.net/%7Ejohnh/homepage/Seabird/index.html>>
                          >
                          > Nels
                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>,
                          > Mike Graf <mgraf@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Mine was a steel centerboard w/external ballast (3 in x 3 in lead
                          > slugs
                          > > running the full length of the centerboard slot). between the spread
                          > > out sail rig and adjustable clr she could balance @
                          > > many different points of sail
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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