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Re: [Michalak] Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions

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  • Andre
    Hi Willie, I was exactly the same a few weeks ago. Questions were answered just stepping by the local lumberyard. Instead of going throught BOM I read
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 4 4:17 AM
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      Hi Willie,

      I was exactly the same a few weeks ago.
      Questions were answered just stepping by the local lumberyard.
      Instead of going throught BOM I read carefully Jims instructions and made a mental dry run taking notes of every material needed. Helped a lot to understand lumber sizes and Where to fix them.
      Pine here refers to a wide variaty of wood. I pic pinus elliotis. ...not recommended to build boats one would say but readly available light weight and cheap.
      There are at least to piccups under build in the group. Mine and Mike's. Hope to see pictures of yours soon.
      Keep us posted.

      Andre.

      Willie Gussin <wgussin@...> escreveu:

      >Hello Everyone!
      >
      >I have begun working on a Piccup Pram! I know almost nothing about
      >woodworking, but I knew even less before I started this project; it really
      >is an amazing learning process, and I really appreciate that.
      >
      >These questions are very basic, but I hope you don't mind taking a moment
      >to enlighten me.
      >
      >Okay, the materials list calls for two 12' pine 2x4's and one 12' redwood
      >1x4. What is the redwood used on? Does it specify somewhere on the plans?
      >Also, the lumber pieces described in the specifications include many sizes
      >of lumber, but not lengths. Do I need to get each of these pieces (a 1 1/2"
      >x 3/4", a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2", a 3/4" x 7/8", etc.) from the two pieces of
      >pine? There is also a 3 1/2" x 1 1/2" in the specifications for the skeg,
      >this is going to use almost an entire 2 x 4 right? Can it be a half inch
      >larger by both dimensions and just not cut the 2 x 4? Also, will the
      >lumberyard rip these boards for me into all of the different sizes? Are
      >some of them flexible measurements and some of them are definite? Are there
      >procedures somewhere on how to get all of these pieces out of the lumber on
      >the materials list?
      >
      >I think one of the main issues (besides the lack of knowledge) is that I
      >don't have any excess wood sitting around from other projects, so I need to
      >buy and cut all lumber used.
      >
      >Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to explain any of these
      >questions I am having!
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • boat2swim
      Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don t understand what you mean by: 3/4 is standard 1 lumber. I do have Jim s book (assuming you are referring to
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 4 4:38 AM
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        Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don't understand what you mean by: "3/4 is standard 1" lumber." I do have Jim's book (assuming you are referring to Boatbuilding for Beginners (and Beyond), and I have read through entirely, but haven't found the answers to these questions. Can you point me to certain sections?

        I am located in Southeastern Vermont, in a town called Brattleboro.

        Thanks for the help!

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Eugene Dixon <edixon193941@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Willie
        >   Welcome to piccup club. 
        >     Most of us buy stock lumber--1x4  1x6 2x4 ect, and rip/cut to size,  Thre Redwood for gennels  is mostly for looks.
        > If you havent IMs book you really need to get it, it well anser 99% of questions
        >   example::  3/4 is standard 1" lumber,   lengths are basicaly gut to fit need.
        > Eugene   located in Oklahoma
        >     where are you located?
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Willie Gussin <wgussin@...>
        > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:40 PM
        > Subject: [Michalak] Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        > Hello Everyone!
        >
        > I have begun working on a Piccup Pram! I know almost nothing about
        > woodworking, but I knew even less before I started this project; it really
        > is an amazing learning process, and I really appreciate that.
        >
        > These questions are very basic, but I hope you don't mind taking a moment
        > to enlighten me.
        >
        > Okay, the materials list calls for two 12' pine 2x4's and one 12' redwood
        > 1x4. What is the redwood used on? Does it specify somewhere on the plans?
        > Also, the lumber pieces described in the specifications include many sizes
        > of lumber, but not lengths. Do I need to get each of these pieces (a 1 1/2"
        > x 3/4", a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2", a 3/4" x 7/8", etc.) from the two pieces of
        > pine? There is also a 3 1/2" x 1 1/2" in the specifications for the skeg,
        > this is going to use almost an entire 2 x 4 right? Can it be a half inch
        > larger by both dimensions and just not cut the 2 x 4? Also, will the
        > lumberyard rip these boards for me into all of the different sizes? Are
        > some of them flexible measurements and some of them are definite? Are there
        > procedures somewhere on how to get all of these pieces out of the lumber on
        > the materials list?
        >
        > I think one of the main issues (besides the lack of knowledge) is that I
        > don't have any excess wood sitting around from other projects, so I need to
        > buy and cut all lumber used.
        >
        > Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to explain any of these
        > questions I am having!
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Eugene Dixon
        Mornin Willlie   When you go to lumber yard or bigbox store, look at  priceing lables, you will see such things as 1 x4 1 x 6 ,  2 x 4  ect.
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 4 6:20 AM
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          Mornin Willlie
            When you go to lumber yard or bigbox store, look at  priceing lables, you will see such things as 1 x4 1 x 6 ,  2 x 4  ect.
                      back in old times lumber was actually sold  as call edl say 1 inch was 1 in. Thru  processing at mills lumber today
          is finished{planed]  to finished  dimension--1 inch actually becomes 3/4 inch    2 x becomes 1 1/2 inch. Same thing happens to width.
            1 x 4 actually becomes  3/4  x 3 1/2.
             Your confusiion comes from  JM,. he assumes every one has the ability/ tools to take that 2 x4 and rip(cut) it into 1 1/2 inch strips
          I personaly dont think it is worth the trouble or money savings.      Let me know what you have in the way of tools-will try to give you
          more help/
          Eugene
           
          Goggle--m Port of Catoosa  thats where I am,                   
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
           
          eugen

          ________________________________
          From: boat2swim <wgussin@...>
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 6:38 AM
          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions


           

          Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don't understand what you mean by: "3/4 is standard 1" lumber." I do have Jim's book (assuming you are referring to Boatbuilding for Beginners (and Beyond), and I have read through entirely, but haven't found the answers to these questions. Can you point me to certain sections?

          I am located in Southeastern Vermont, in a town called Brattleboro.

          Thanks for the help!

          --- In mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com, Eugene Dixon wrote:
          >
          > Hi Willie
          >   Welcome to piccup club. 
          >     Most of us buy stock lumber--1x4  1x6 2x4 ect, and rip/cut to size,  Thre Redwood for gennels  is mostly for looks.
          > If you havent IMs book you really need to get it, it well anser 99% of questions
          >   example::  3/4 is standard 1" lumber,   lengths are basicaly gut to fit need.
          > Eugene   located in Oklahoma
          >     where are you located?
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Willie Gussin
          > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:40 PM
          > Subject: [Michalak] Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          > Hello Everyone!
          >
          > I have begun working on a Piccup Pram! I know almost nothing about
          > woodworking, but I knew even less before I started this project; it really
          > is an amazing learning process, and I really appreciate that.
          >
          > These questions are very basic, but I hope you don't mind taking a moment
          > to enlighten me.
          >
          > Okay, the materials list calls for two 12' pine 2x4's and one 12' redwood
          > 1x4. What is the redwood used on? Does it specify somewhere on the plans?
          > Also, the lumber pieces described in the specifications include many sizes
          > of lumber, but not lengths. Do I need to get each of these pieces (a 1 1/2"
          > x 3/4", a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2", a 3/4" x 7/8", etc.) from the two pieces of
          > pine? There is also a 3 1/2" x 1 1/2" in the specifications for the skeg,
          > this is going to use almost an entire 2 x 4 right? Can it be a half inch
          > larger by both dimensions and just not cut the 2 x 4? Also, will the
          > lumberyard rip these boards for me into all of the different sizes? Are
          > some of them flexible measurements and some of them are definite? Are there
          > procedures somewhere on how to get all of these pieces out of the lumber on
          > the materials list?
          >
          > I think one of the main issues (besides the lack of knowledge) is that I
          > don't have any excess wood sitting around from other projects, so I need to
          > buy and cut all lumber used.
          >
          > Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to explain any of these
          > questions I am having!
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • prairiedog2332
          Willie, You can study a dimensional lumber sizing chart here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber The confusion is that the actual dimensions are different
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 4 6:52 AM
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            Willie,

            You can study a dimensional lumber sizing chart here.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber

            The confusion is that the " actual" dimensions are different than the
            "nominal" dimensions. That is because the original rough board loses
            it's size when it gets planed smooth and the chart shows how much gets
            planed off. The other thing is that a lot of lumber at your regular yard
            is not specified as to type of tree it came from and most is soft wood
            from evergreen trees. Here in Canada it is usually referred to as SPF
            meaning it might be spruce, pine or fir. Doesn't really matter just try
            to pick out boards that are as free of knots as possible and the grain
            is fairly straight. Where it calls for redwood - for the wales - you can
            also use cedar or tropical "mahogany" as well - or even white oak or
            ash.

            The ability to rip boards to smaller widths is really an advantage as a
            wider board is generally better quality. And also the ability to
            laminate thinner boards (strips) to make a wider board when having to go
            around curves. For wales you can use a thin strip with short blocks
            attached in between the strip and the hull and get a pretty strong wale
            that drains when the hull is inverted. Need some clamps for that. For a
            mast you can also research aluminum tubing and the yard and boom do not
            have to be round.

            I visited Brattleboro one time. Beautiful town and area.

            Nels


            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "boat2swim" <wgussin@...> wrote:
            >
            > Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don't understand what you mean
            by: "3/4 is standard 1" lumber." I do have Jim's book (assuming you are
            referring to Boatbuilding for Beginners (and Beyond), and I have read
            through entirely, but haven't found the answers to these questions. Can
            you point me to certain sections?
            >
            > I am located in Southeastern Vermont, in a town called Brattleboro.
            >
            > Thanks for the help!




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Andres Espino
            when the lumberyard planes down standard 1 inch board it becomes 3/4 thick. Most people who draw up plans for boats want true lumber dimensions (where 1in is
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 4 11:15 AM
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              when the lumberyard planes down standard 1" inch board it becomes 3/4 thick.

              Most people who draw up plans for boats want true lumber dimensions (where 1in is actually 1in)  but a lot like Jim Michalak and Jeff Spira take that into account in their plans which makes home building easier.

              Andrew




              ________________________________
              From: boat2swim <wgussin@...>
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 5:38 AM
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions


               
              Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don't understand what you mean by: "3/4 is standard 1" lumber." I do have Jim's book (assuming you are referring to Boatbuilding for Beginners (and Beyond), and I have read through entirely, but haven't found the answers to these questions. Can you point me to certain sections?

              I am located in Southeastern Vermont, in a town called Brattleboro.

              Thanks for the help!

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Eugene Dixon wrote:
              >
              > Hi Willie
              >   Welcome to piccup club. 
              >     Most of us buy stock lumber--1x4  1x6 2x4 ect, and rip/cut to size,  Thre Redwood for gennels  is mostly for looks.
              > If you havent IMs book you really need to get it, it well anser 99% of questions
              >   example::  3/4 is standard 1" lumber,   lengths are basicaly gut to fit need.
              > Eugene   located in Oklahoma
              >     where are you located?
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Willie Gussin
              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:40 PM
              > Subject: [Michalak] Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              > Hello Everyone!
              >
              > I have begun working on a Piccup Pram! I know almost nothing about
              > woodworking, but I knew even less before I started this project; it really
              > is an amazing learning process, and I really appreciate that.
              >
              > These questions are very basic, but I hope you don't mind taking a moment
              > to enlighten me.
              >
              > Okay, the materials list calls for two 12' pine 2x4's and one 12' redwood
              > 1x4. What is the redwood used on? Does it specify somewhere on the plans?
              > Also, the lumber pieces described in the specifications include many sizes
              > of lumber, but not lengths. Do I need to get each of these pieces (a 1 1/2"
              > x 3/4", a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2", a 3/4" x 7/8", etc.) from the two pieces of
              > pine? There is also a 3 1/2" x 1 1/2" in the specifications for the skeg,
              > this is going to use almost an entire 2 x 4 right? Can it be a half inch
              > larger by both dimensions and just not cut the 2 x 4? Also, will the
              > lumberyard rip these boards for me into all of the different sizes? Are
              > some of them flexible measurements and some of them are definite? Are there
              > procedures somewhere on how to get all of these pieces out of the lumber on
              > the materials list?
              >
              > I think one of the main issues (besides the lack of knowledge) is that I
              > don't have any excess wood sitting around from other projects, so I need to
              > buy and cut all lumber used.
              >
              > Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to explain any of these
              > questions I am having!
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike
              Willie, The one probblem I ran into with the lumber dimensions was that the sureply plywood I used wasn t 1/4 inch. It was 5.5 mm. I was concerned about the
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 4 11:23 AM
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                Willie,
                The one probblem I ran into with the lumber dimensions was that the sureply plywood I used wasn't 1/4 inch. It was 5.5 mm. I was concerned about the fact that it was actually thinner then the JM's plans called for so I posted the question and asked for some suggestions. Do a search on the forum for piccup pram and if you look at messages around June 4, 2012 you will see a lot of good information from Scott McPherson, Dave Calloway, Martin Houston and Nels on how to compensate for the difference in thickness.

                I ended up glassing over the outside of the hull with thicker fiberglass cloth (10 oz) to make up the difference in thickness and strength.I am laminating an extra layer of plywood on inside bottom in cockpit area just for strength and wear and tear and will cover with a skim coat of expoxy resin. I know that's overkill but where I sail normally has a pretty good chop just about everyday so it can't hurt.

                Also I did the waterproof test that Nels or someone else recommended with a piece of the plywood and it worked fine. Test was to boil a small piece of the plywood for an hour. I ran it a little longer and the plywood did not delaminate which meant that the glue used between the plywood layers held up.

                Good luck with your build. I posted photos of mine about a week ago under mike's piccup.

                Regards,
                Mike

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
                >
                > Willie,
                >
                > You can study a dimensional lumber sizing chart here.
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber
                >
                > The confusion is that the " actual" dimensions are different than the
                > "nominal" dimensions. That is because the original rough board loses
                > it's size when it gets planed smooth and the chart shows how much gets
                > planed off. The other thing is that a lot of lumber at your regular yard
                > is not specified as to type of tree it came from and most is soft wood
                > from evergreen trees. Here in Canada it is usually referred to as SPF
                > meaning it might be spruce, pine or fir. Doesn't really matter just try
                > to pick out boards that are as free of knots as possible and the grain
                > is fairly straight. Where it calls for redwood - for the wales - you can
                > also use cedar or tropical "mahogany" as well - or even white oak or
                > ash.
                >
                > The ability to rip boards to smaller widths is really an advantage as a
                > wider board is generally better quality. And also the ability to
                > laminate thinner boards (strips) to make a wider board when having to go
                > around curves. For wales you can use a thin strip with short blocks
                > attached in between the strip and the hull and get a pretty strong wale
                > that drains when the hull is inverted. Need some clamps for that. For a
                > mast you can also research aluminum tubing and the yard and boom do not
                > have to be round.
                >
                > I visited Brattleboro one time. Beautiful town and area.
                >
                > Nels
                >
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "boat2swim" <wgussin@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don't understand what you mean
                > by: "3/4 is standard 1" lumber." I do have Jim's book (assuming you are
                > referring to Boatbuilding for Beginners (and Beyond), and I have read
                > through entirely, but haven't found the answers to these questions. Can
                > you point me to certain sections?
                > >
                > > I am located in Southeastern Vermont, in a town called Brattleboro.
                > >
                > > Thanks for the help!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • John Trussell
                For most small boats, ‘natural wood’ (as opposed to plywood) is used in part as stiffeners and in part as glue/clamping blocks. IMHO. neither of these
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 4 1:53 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  For most small boats, ‘natural wood’ (as opposed to plywood) is used in part
                  as stiffeners and in part as glue/clamping blocks. IMHO. neither of these
                  applications is extraordinarily critical and lumber with dimensions plus or
                  minus ¼ inch are acceptable.



                  JohnT



                  _____

                  From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Andres Espino
                  Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 2:16 PM
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions





                  when the lumberyard planes down standard 1" inch board it becomes 3/4 thick.

                  Most people who draw up plans for boats want true lumber dimensions (where
                  1in is actually 1in) but a lot like Jim Michalak and Jeff Spira take that
                  into account in their plans which makes home building easier.

                  Andrew

                  ________________________________
                  From: boat2swim wgussin@... <mailto:wgussin%40gmail.com> >
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, March 4, 2013 5:38 AM
                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions



                  Forgive me if I am being dense, but I don't understand what you mean by:
                  "3/4 is standard 1" lumber." I do have Jim's book (assuming you are
                  referring to Boatbuilding for Beginners (and Beyond), and I have read
                  through entirely, but haven't found the answers to these questions. Can you
                  point me to certain sections?

                  I am located in Southeastern Vermont, in a town called Brattleboro.

                  Thanks for the help!

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , Eugene
                  Dixon wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Willie
                  > Â Welcome to piccup club.Â
                  > Â Â Â Most of us buy stock lumber--1x4Â 1x6 2x4 ect, and rip/cut to
                  size, Thre Redwood for gennels  is mostly for looks.
                  > If you havent IMs book you really need to get it, it well anser 99% of
                  questions
                  >  example:: 3/4 is standard 1" lumber,  lengths are basicaly gut to
                  fit need.
                  > Eugene  located in Oklahoma
                  > Â Â Â where are you located?
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Willie Gussin
                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:40 PM
                  > Subject: [Michalak] Piccup Pram - Lumber Questions
                  >
                  >
                  > Â
                  >
                  > Hello Everyone!
                  >
                  > I have begun working on a Piccup Pram! I know almost nothing about
                  > woodworking, but I knew even less before I started this project; it really
                  > is an amazing learning process, and I really appreciate that.
                  >
                  > These questions are very basic, but I hope you don't mind taking a moment
                  > to enlighten me.
                  >
                  > Okay, the materials list calls for two 12' pine 2x4's and one 12' redwood
                  > 1x4. What is the redwood used on? Does it specify somewhere on the plans?
                  > Also, the lumber pieces described in the specifications include many sizes
                  > of lumber, but not lengths. Do I need to get each of these pieces (a 1
                  1/2"
                  > x 3/4", a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2", a 3/4" x 7/8", etc.) from the two pieces of
                  > pine? There is also a 3 1/2" x 1 1/2" in the specifications for the skeg,
                  > this is going to use almost an entire 2 x 4 right? Can it be a half inch
                  > larger by both dimensions and just not cut the 2 x 4? Also, will the
                  > lumberyard rip these boards for me into all of the different sizes? Are
                  > some of them flexible measurements and some of them are definite? Are
                  there
                  > procedures somewhere on how to get all of these pieces out of the lumber
                  on
                  > the materials list?
                  >
                  > I think one of the main issues (besides the lack of knowledge) is that I
                  > don't have any excess wood sitting around from other projects, so I need
                  to
                  > buy and cut all lumber used.
                  >
                  > Thank you so much to anyone who takes the time to explain any of these
                  > questions I am having!
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • prairiedog2332
                  Very good point made by John T. In traditional boat building terms this is often referred to as Scantlings . It is interesting to note that Bolger tended
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 4 3:11 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Very good point made by John T.

                    In "traditional boat building " terms this is often referred to as
                    "Scantlings". It is interesting to note that Bolger tended to go with
                    as light as possible and many builders increased them and Jim being a
                    great believer in Bolger's work tended to design his with a bit heavier
                    scantlings as a result. Also the dimensional lumber and plywood these
                    days are not as good as back in Bolger's earlier "instant boats" days.

                    It also depends on the boat. For example in a light rowing design you
                    can go a bit lighter. Just enough dimension to hold the fasteners of
                    your choice. Ring nails don't need much to hold tenaciously when
                    combined with a good glue. Just make sure you hit the bulkhead frame
                    wood with the nails. And with stitch and tape you don't need anything
                    for the lightest strength /weight ratio.

                    If wanting to use a motor, then don't scrimp with the transom framing
                    though - both bow and stern - nor the stem on a pointy design.

                    Jim also prefers to use lumber, (1x4) rather than plywood for the
                    backing plates in in a butt joint so they can be locked in with ring
                    nails or screws rather than having to "clinch" copper wire nails as
                    Payson does in his Bolger designs which require a helper to do right.

                    As a side note my lumber yard often stocks tropical mahogany cheaper
                    than clear fir. For those worried about the "rain forest" depletion,
                    clear fir comes from the west coast rain forests.

                    Nels

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > For most small boats, `natural wood' (as opposed to plywood)
                    is used in part
                    > as stiffeners and in part as glue/clamping blocks. IMHO. neither of
                    these
                    > applications is extraordinarily critical and lumber with dimensions
                    plus or
                    > minus ¼ inch are acceptable.

                    > JohnT
                    >
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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