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Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

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  • Roger Padvorac
    Nels, I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation It talks
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 15, 2013
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      Nels,
      I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
      It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

      This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

      Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

      If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

      Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

      So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

      If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

      For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

      Sincerely,
      Roger

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...>
      To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
      Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


      > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • prairiedog2332
      I read an article written by Dr. Richard Jagels in WB mag about this subject but can t locate it. So will paraphrase from memory. Generally speaking, mold
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 15, 2013
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        I read an article written by Dr. Richard Jagels in WB mag about this
        subject but can't locate it. So will paraphrase from memory.

        Generally speaking, mold spores and other microbes that lead to wood
        decay require 3 sources of energy to survive and do their job. Moisture,
        warmth and access to a safe food source. Remove one or two of these and
        the wood should survive instead of the spores and microbes. Remove as
        many as you can and the better your chances.

        So if you start off with dry wood and seal it with something like epoxy
        or any choice of sealers (Including CPES) and then protect the
        epoxy/sealer with good UV protective paint and maybe a layer of glass
        cloth, that should do the job of keeping out the moisture.

        The further south you boat and the more humid the weather the more the
        warmth and moisture play into the equation. The more protection the wood
        requires. The opposite extreme is in the high Arctic where untreated
        wood lasts for hundreds of years as the baddies can't survive or at
        least go dormant most of the time.

        Two other changes have been made over the years that leave wood more
        susceptible to decay. Paints and glues are not as poisonous to microbes
        and molds as they used to be and of course water-based products are not
        as dangerous to them as high VOC and petroleum based products we used to
        be able to apply.

        Seems ironic that as we try to protect the forests we can't protect the
        wood products that we make from them as well as we could. But as
        mentioned many times - one product - MDO - comes to your door already
        protected. But I expect that it is going the way of the Dodo before
        long.

        Nels

        <br>--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...>
        wrote:<br>><br>> Nels,<br>> I should have been more explicit about what
        I found interesting in this article:<br>>


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sharpie3444
        Before the thread dies, consider wax as a wood sealant in airboxes where nothing will be stored. If nothing is there to scrape the wax off the wood it may
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 15, 2013
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          Before the thread dies, consider wax as a wood sealant in airboxes where nothing will be stored. If nothing is there to scrape the wax off the wood it may well be sealed from air and water with only wax, but wax over epoxy might be worth a try . Hot wax would likely find every hole or crack missed by the epoxy or even paint. This was a way fresh water tanks were sealed in old boats that used wooden tanks.

          A double boiler, ie a pan floating in a crock pot on low with water might be a safe way to melt wax that is to be applied with a brush. maybe a way to keep epoxy warm as well.

          poly tarp wax melts abt 194 degrees F, household wax (Gulf) melt at abt 120 /140 degrees, but some candle wax is availible that melts at 159 degrees, The high melt point wax might be the best for the above ideas as well as gluing polytarp long enough to sew it, or maybe enought to weld the tarp to use if used with with a wide overlap.

          I ll post this where polytarp Dave can see it, it might be worth his feedback.

          David Davis





          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
          >
          > I read an article written by Dr. Richard Jagels in WB mag about this
          > subject but can't locate it. So will paraphrase from memory.
          >
          > Generally speaking, mold spores and other microbes that lead to wood
          > decay require 3 sources of energy to survive and do their job. Moisture,
          > warmth and access to a safe food source. Remove one or two of these and
          > the wood should survive instead of the spores and microbes. Remove as
          > many as you can and the better your chances.
          >
          > So if you start off with dry wood and seal it with something like epoxy
          > or any choice of sealers (Including CPES) and then protect the
          > epoxy/sealer with good UV protective paint and maybe a layer of glass
          > cloth, that should do the job of keeping out the moisture.
          >
          > The further south you boat and the more humid the weather the more the
          > warmth and moisture play into the equation. The more protection the wood
          > requires. The opposite extreme is in the high Arctic where untreated
          > wood lasts for hundreds of years as the baddies can't survive or at
          > least go dormant most of the time.
          >
          > Two other changes have been made over the years that leave wood more
          > susceptible to decay. Paints and glues are not as poisonous to microbes
          > and molds as they used to be and of course water-based products are not
          > as dangerous to them as high VOC and petroleum based products we used to
          > be able to apply.
          >
          > Seems ironic that as we try to protect the forests we can't protect the
          > wood products that we make from them as well as we could. But as
          > mentioned many times - one product - MDO - comes to your door already
          > protected. But I expect that it is going the way of the Dodo before
          > long.
          >
          > Nels
          >
          > <br>--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@>
          > wrote:<br>><br>> Nels,<br>> I should have been more explicit about what
          > I found interesting in this article:<br>>
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Andres Espino
          Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 16, 2013
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            Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
            http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html



            There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
            http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html

            Andrew


            ________________________________
            From: Roger Padvorac <roger@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


             
            Nels,
            I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
            It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

            This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

            Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

            If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

            Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

            So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

            If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

            For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

            Sincerely,
            Roger

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
            Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

            > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scott Souder
            Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 17, 2013
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              Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am curious because it is an epoxy and in most cases they seem to work fine one brand to another and all that...but the CPES has some solvent qualities to it as well. I would be nervous about it possibly effecting bonds I guess.



              ________________________________
              From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
              To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


               

              Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
              http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html

              There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
              http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html

              Andrew

              ________________________________
              From: Roger Padvorac mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
              To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


               
              Nels,
              I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
              It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

              This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

              Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

              If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

              Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

              So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

              If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

              For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

              Sincerely,
              Roger

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "prairiedog2332" mailto:nelsarv%40hotmail.com>
              To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
              Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

              > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andres Espino
              No the rotdoctor site explains that epoxies bond well to it.  After you have cured your rot you can epoxy and glass over the spot and paint it.  I used CPES
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 17, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                No the rotdoctor site explains that epoxies bond well to it. 

                After you have cured your rot you can epoxy and glass over the spot and paint it. 

                I used CPES to repair where my deck coreing had started to rot around stanchion bolts and  other hardware.  I used a large countersing bit to enlarge the top then plugged the bottom and saturated the inside with CPES and let it work way back laterally... then I forced resin with filler into the hole and filled it up.  I kept the bolt hole mostly open with a wooden dowel wrapped with mylar (resin does not stick to mylar.. save those chips bags with the silver lining).  Light sand and deck paint and then rebed the base with butyl tape good as new.

                Andrew




                ________________________________
                From: Scott Souder <souderscott997@...>
                To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 10:57 AM
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                 
                Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am curious because it is an epoxy and in most cases they seem to work fine one brand to another and all that...but the CPES has some solvent qualities to it as well. I would be nervous about it possibly effecting bonds I guess.

                ________________________________
                From: Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                 

                Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
                http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html

                There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
                http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html

                Andrew

                ________________________________
                From: Roger Padvorac mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

                 
                Nels,
                I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

                This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

                Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

                If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

                Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

                So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

                If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

                For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

                Sincerely,
                Roger

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "prairiedog2332" mailto:nelsarv%40hotmail.com>
                To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

                > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • souderscott997
                good to know
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 17, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  good to know

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > No the rotdoctor site explains that epoxies bond well to it. 
                  >
                  > After you have cured your rot you can epoxy and glass over the spot and paint it. 
                  >
                  > I used CPES to repair where my deck coreing had started to rot around stanchion bolts and  other hardware.  I used a large countersing bit to enlarge the top then plugged the bottom and saturated the inside with CPES and let it work way back laterally... then I forced resin with filler into the hole and filled it up.  I kept the bolt hole mostly open with a wooden dowel wrapped with mylar (resin does not stick to mylar.. save those chips bags with the silver lining).  Light sand and deck paint and then rebed the base with butyl tape good as new.
                  >
                  > Andrew
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Scott Souder <souderscott997@...>
                  > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 10:57 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am curious because it is an epoxy and in most cases they seem to work fine one brand to another and all that...but the CPES has some solvent qualities to it as well. I would be nervous about it possibly effecting bonds I guess.
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                  > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:08 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
                  > http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html
                  >
                  > There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
                  > http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html
                  >
                  > Andrew
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Roger Padvorac mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                  > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                  >
                  >  
                  > Nels,
                  > I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                  > It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.
                  >
                  > This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.
                  >
                  > Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.
                  >
                  > If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.
                  >
                  > Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.
                  >
                  > So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.
                  >
                  > If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.
                  >
                  > For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  > Roger
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "prairiedog2332" mailto:nelsarv%40hotmail.com>
                  > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                  > Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                  >
                  > > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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