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[Michalak] CPES > Re: In most cases you DON'T want to "pre coat" your wood with epoxy!

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  • Roger Padvorac
    For those like me, who don t know what CPES is, here is some background information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation It sounds
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 13 10:34 PM
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      For those like me, who don't know what CPES is, here is some background information:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
      It sounds pretty interesting, and if you have the money, pretty handy.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "souderscott997" <souderscott997@...>
      To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 1:41 PM
      Subject: [Michalak] Re: In most cases you DON'T want to "pre coat" your wood with epoxy!
      >
      > If you don't mind me asking...how do you like the peapod? I am considering the Selway Fisher Kestral peapod for a next build. I really like the stich and glue building way and he offers it in that. It seems like a very nice design. I am not sure about the rig but he may have other options. Don Breeding post here from time to time and he has just finished a great Scamp. I think he is in Havasu as we speak putting it thru it's paces. I would agree with you in regards to a water ballast compartment being pre coated.
      > Also on the subject of epoxy coatings what about the likes of CPES? I have heard people coating with it before doing a wet out with cloth etc... but from what I have read it seems to have solvent like qualities...that would make me nervous about the bond with standard epoxies.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • prairiedog2332
      According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 14 6:18 AM
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        According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)


        <http://westsystem.com/ss/search-results.php?cx=partner-pub-0946700634743895%3Akdx32b3cd3w&cof=FORID%3A9%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=thinning+epoxy&sa=%C2%A0Go>


        <http://www.westsystem.com/ss/thinning-west-system-epoxy/>


        Apparently CPES(Tm) is derived partly from wood-based resins, rather than petroleum, and contains "other precisely measured organic solvents which act as 'carriers' and take the epoxy deep into the wood and then evaporate out over a period of time" (The main one is wood alcohol and is why it takes a "period of time" to evaporate.)


        http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/cpes.html


        Besides WEST finding no advantage to having epoxy penetrate "deep into the wood", there is general agreement amongst all the sellers that trying to repair rotted wood is a bad practice from an engineering standpoint.


        All except the makers of CPES(Tm) who seem to indicate their product will make rotted wood stronger than when it was new.


        Nels


        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" wrote:
        >
        > For those like me, who don't know what CPES is, here is some background information:
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
        > It sounds pretty interesting, and if you have the money, pretty handy.
        >
      • Donald Greer
        Nels, I actually have a use for this stuff, so thanks for that. I looked around and, for large orders (2 and 10 gallons), System Three is a bit cheaper:
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 14 6:54 AM
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          Nels,

          I actually have a use for this stuff, so thanks for that. I looked around
          and, for large orders (2 and 10 gallons), System Three is a bit cheaper:
          http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/S-1-Sealer-c32.htm
          If you're building a yacht, the 10 gallon price difference is significant
          (almost $300 less for System Three than the others I found).
          Don


          On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:18 AM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is
          > very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and
          > several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can
          > Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably
          > the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
          >
          >
          > http://westsystem.com/ss/search-results.php?cx=partner-pub-0946700634743895%3Akdx32b3cd3w&cof=FORID%3A9%3BNB%3A1&ie=UTF-8&q=thinning+epoxy&sa=%C2%A0Go
          > >
          >
          > http://www.westsystem.com/ss/thinning-west-system-epoxy/>
          >
          > Apparently CPES(Tm) is derived partly from wood-based resins, rather than
          > petroleum, and contains "other precisely measured organic solvents which
          > act as 'carriers' and take the epoxy deep into the wood and then evaporate
          > out over a period of time" (The main one is wood alcohol and is why it
          > takes a "period of time" to evaporate.)
          >
          > http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/cpes.html
          >
          > Besides WEST finding no advantage to having epoxy penetrate "deep into the
          > wood", there is general agreement amongst all the sellers that trying to
          > repair rotted wood is a bad practice from an engineering standpoint.
          >
          > All except the makers of CPES(Tm) who seem to indicate their product will
          > make rotted wood stronger than when it was new.
          >
          > Nels
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" wrote:
          > >
          > > For those like me, who don't know what CPES is, here is some background
          > information:
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
          > > It sounds pretty interesting, and if you have the money, pretty handy.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          "I don't necessarily believe that software should be free, but if you pay
          for it, it should work." -- Me


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andres Espino
          I have used CPES before available from rotdoctor.com and it is amazing stuff for repairing rotted core in decks and things like that.  If you want to use it
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 14 9:18 AM
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            I have used CPES before available from rotdoctor.com and it is amazing stuff for repairing rotted core in decks and things like that.  If you want to use it to precoat your plywood it is not scheap stuff.

            You can dilute resin with Acitone and i do that just to seal the poors of the wood.  Remember when you dilute resin you weaken the bonding characteristics, but if you only want it to soak in and seal the wood and not glue anything no problem/

            If you want to create a bond do not dilute more than 10%,  but to only penetrate and seal poors of the wood I have gonbe as high as 25% before.  You will need to coat the wood surface again with regular resin and then glass or with paint.

            Hope that helps someone.

            Andrew




            ________________________________
            From: Roger Padvorac <roger@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:34 PM
            Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re: In most cases you DON'T want to "pre coat" your wood with epoxy!


             
            For those like me, who don't know what CPES is, here is some background information:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
            It sounds pretty interesting, and if you have the money, pretty handy.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "souderscott997" souderscott997@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 1:41 PM
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: In most cases you DON'T want to "pre coat" your wood with epoxy!
            >
            > If you don't mind me asking...how do you like the peapod? I am considering the Selway Fisher Kestral peapod for a next build. I really like the stich and glue building way and he offers it in that. It seems like a very nice design. I am not sure about the rig but he may have other options. Don Breeding post here from time to time and he has just finished a great Scamp. I think he is in Havasu as we speak putting it thru it's paces. I would agree with you in regards to a water ballast compartment being pre coated.
            > Also on the subject of epoxy coatings what about the likes of CPES? I have heard people coating with it before doing a wet out with cloth etc... but from what I have read it seems to have solvent like qualities...that would make me nervous about the bond with standard epoxies.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Giuliano Girometta
            A non expensive CPES way to saturate the wood as much as possible with epoxy is to use a water reducible epoxy like the 50WR supplied by FASCO. Is a 2 to 1
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 14 9:36 AM
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              A non expensive CPES way to saturate the wood as much as possible with epoxy is to use a water reducible epoxy like the 50WR supplied by FASCO.
              Is a 2 to 1 mixing ratio and should be tinned with at least two gallon of water per each gallon of epoxy. ( last batch I ordered was less than $ 50.00 per gallon that makes at least 3 gallons of finished product).
              The advantage of reducing the epoxy with water verse acetone is that the water dryies slowly and penetrate deeper into the wood, while solvent tinners like acetone are drying much faster and also the solvent need to evaporate through the epoxy and during this process the escaped acetone vapors will create small holes through the epoxy layer that will in the future allow moisture penetration into the woood.
               
              Giuliano
               

              --- On Thu, 2/14/13, Roger Padvorac <roger@...> wrote:


              From: Roger Padvorac <roger@...>
              Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re: In most cases you DON'T want to "pre coat" your wood with epoxy!
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 14, 2013, 6:34 AM



               



              For those like me, who don't know what CPES is, here is some background information:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
              It sounds pretty interesting, and if you have the money, pretty handy.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "souderscott997" souderscott997@...>
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 1:41 PM
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: In most cases you DON'T want to "pre coat" your wood with epoxy!
              >
              > If you don't mind me asking...how do you like the peapod? I am considering the Selway Fisher Kestral peapod for a next build. I really like the stich and glue building way and he offers it in that. It seems like a very nice design. I am not sure about the rig but he may have other options. Don Breeding post here from time to time and he has just finished a great Scamp. I think he is in Havasu as we speak putting it thru it's paces. I would agree with you in regards to a water ballast compartment being pre coated.
              > Also on the subject of epoxy coatings what about the likes of CPES? I have heard people coating with it before doing a wet out with cloth etc... but from what I have read it seems to have solvent like qualities...that would make me nervous about the bond with standard epoxies.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Roger Padvorac
              Nels, I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation It talks
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 15 4:22 PM
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                Nels,
                I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

                This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

                Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

                If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

                Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

                So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

                If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

                For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

                Sincerely,
                Roger

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...>
                To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • prairiedog2332
                I read an article written by Dr. Richard Jagels in WB mag about this subject but can t locate it. So will paraphrase from memory. Generally speaking, mold
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 15 5:33 PM
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                  I read an article written by Dr. Richard Jagels in WB mag about this
                  subject but can't locate it. So will paraphrase from memory.

                  Generally speaking, mold spores and other microbes that lead to wood
                  decay require 3 sources of energy to survive and do their job. Moisture,
                  warmth and access to a safe food source. Remove one or two of these and
                  the wood should survive instead of the spores and microbes. Remove as
                  many as you can and the better your chances.

                  So if you start off with dry wood and seal it with something like epoxy
                  or any choice of sealers (Including CPES) and then protect the
                  epoxy/sealer with good UV protective paint and maybe a layer of glass
                  cloth, that should do the job of keeping out the moisture.

                  The further south you boat and the more humid the weather the more the
                  warmth and moisture play into the equation. The more protection the wood
                  requires. The opposite extreme is in the high Arctic where untreated
                  wood lasts for hundreds of years as the baddies can't survive or at
                  least go dormant most of the time.

                  Two other changes have been made over the years that leave wood more
                  susceptible to decay. Paints and glues are not as poisonous to microbes
                  and molds as they used to be and of course water-based products are not
                  as dangerous to them as high VOC and petroleum based products we used to
                  be able to apply.

                  Seems ironic that as we try to protect the forests we can't protect the
                  wood products that we make from them as well as we could. But as
                  mentioned many times - one product - MDO - comes to your door already
                  protected. But I expect that it is going the way of the Dodo before
                  long.

                  Nels

                  <br>--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...>
                  wrote:<br>><br>> Nels,<br>> I should have been more explicit about what
                  I found interesting in this article:<br>>


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • sharpie3444
                  Before the thread dies, consider wax as a wood sealant in airboxes where nothing will be stored. If nothing is there to scrape the wax off the wood it may
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 15 6:01 PM
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                    Before the thread dies, consider wax as a wood sealant in airboxes where nothing will be stored. If nothing is there to scrape the wax off the wood it may well be sealed from air and water with only wax, but wax over epoxy might be worth a try . Hot wax would likely find every hole or crack missed by the epoxy or even paint. This was a way fresh water tanks were sealed in old boats that used wooden tanks.

                    A double boiler, ie a pan floating in a crock pot on low with water might be a safe way to melt wax that is to be applied with a brush. maybe a way to keep epoxy warm as well.

                    poly tarp wax melts abt 194 degrees F, household wax (Gulf) melt at abt 120 /140 degrees, but some candle wax is availible that melts at 159 degrees, The high melt point wax might be the best for the above ideas as well as gluing polytarp long enough to sew it, or maybe enought to weld the tarp to use if used with with a wide overlap.

                    I ll post this where polytarp Dave can see it, it might be worth his feedback.

                    David Davis





                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I read an article written by Dr. Richard Jagels in WB mag about this
                    > subject but can't locate it. So will paraphrase from memory.
                    >
                    > Generally speaking, mold spores and other microbes that lead to wood
                    > decay require 3 sources of energy to survive and do their job. Moisture,
                    > warmth and access to a safe food source. Remove one or two of these and
                    > the wood should survive instead of the spores and microbes. Remove as
                    > many as you can and the better your chances.
                    >
                    > So if you start off with dry wood and seal it with something like epoxy
                    > or any choice of sealers (Including CPES) and then protect the
                    > epoxy/sealer with good UV protective paint and maybe a layer of glass
                    > cloth, that should do the job of keeping out the moisture.
                    >
                    > The further south you boat and the more humid the weather the more the
                    > warmth and moisture play into the equation. The more protection the wood
                    > requires. The opposite extreme is in the high Arctic where untreated
                    > wood lasts for hundreds of years as the baddies can't survive or at
                    > least go dormant most of the time.
                    >
                    > Two other changes have been made over the years that leave wood more
                    > susceptible to decay. Paints and glues are not as poisonous to microbes
                    > and molds as they used to be and of course water-based products are not
                    > as dangerous to them as high VOC and petroleum based products we used to
                    > be able to apply.
                    >
                    > Seems ironic that as we try to protect the forests we can't protect the
                    > wood products that we make from them as well as we could. But as
                    > mentioned many times - one product - MDO - comes to your door already
                    > protected. But I expect that it is going the way of the Dodo before
                    > long.
                    >
                    > Nels
                    >
                    > <br>--- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Padvorac" <roger@>
                    > wrote:<br>><br>> Nels,<br>> I should have been more explicit about what
                    > I found interesting in this article:<br>>
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Andres Espino
                    Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 16 8:08 PM
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                      Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
                      http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html



                      There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
                      http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html

                      Andrew


                      ________________________________
                      From: Roger Padvorac <roger@...>
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                       
                      Nels,
                      I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                      It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

                      This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

                      Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

                      If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

                      Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

                      So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

                      If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

                      For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

                      Sincerely,
                      Roger

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@...>
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                      Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

                      > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Scott Souder
                      Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 17 9:57 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am curious because it is an epoxy and in most cases they seem to work fine one brand to another and all that...but the CPES has some solvent qualities to it as well. I would be nervous about it possibly effecting bonds I guess.



                        ________________________________
                        From: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                        To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:08 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                         

                        Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
                        http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html

                        There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
                        http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html

                        Andrew

                        ________________________________
                        From: Roger Padvorac mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                        To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                         
                        Nels,
                        I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                        It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

                        This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

                        Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

                        If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

                        Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

                        So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

                        If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

                        For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

                        Sincerely,
                        Roger

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "prairiedog2332" mailto:nelsarv%40hotmail.com>
                        To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                        Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

                        > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Andres Espino
                        No the rotdoctor site explains that epoxies bond well to it.  After you have cured your rot you can epoxy and glass over the spot and paint it.  I used CPES
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 17 1:32 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          No the rotdoctor site explains that epoxies bond well to it. 

                          After you have cured your rot you can epoxy and glass over the spot and paint it. 

                          I used CPES to repair where my deck coreing had started to rot around stanchion bolts and  other hardware.  I used a large countersing bit to enlarge the top then plugged the bottom and saturated the inside with CPES and let it work way back laterally... then I forced resin with filler into the hole and filled it up.  I kept the bolt hole mostly open with a wooden dowel wrapped with mylar (resin does not stick to mylar.. save those chips bags with the silver lining).  Light sand and deck paint and then rebed the base with butyl tape good as new.

                          Andrew




                          ________________________________
                          From: Scott Souder <souderscott997@...>
                          To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 10:57 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                           
                          Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am curious because it is an epoxy and in most cases they seem to work fine one brand to another and all that...but the CPES has some solvent qualities to it as well. I would be nervous about it possibly effecting bonds I guess.

                          ________________________________
                          From: Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                          To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:08 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:


                           

                          Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
                          http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html

                          There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
                          http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html

                          Andrew

                          ________________________________
                          From: Roger Padvorac mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                          To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

                           
                          Nels,
                          I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                          It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.

                          This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.

                          Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.

                          If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.

                          Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.

                          So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.

                          If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.

                          For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.

                          Sincerely,
                          Roger

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "prairiedog2332" mailto:nelsarv%40hotmail.com>
                          To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                          Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:

                          > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                          >

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • souderscott997
                          good to know
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 17 5:12 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            good to know

                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > No the rotdoctor site explains that epoxies bond well to it. 
                            >
                            > After you have cured your rot you can epoxy and glass over the spot and paint it. 
                            >
                            > I used CPES to repair where my deck coreing had started to rot around stanchion bolts and  other hardware.  I used a large countersing bit to enlarge the top then plugged the bottom and saturated the inside with CPES and let it work way back laterally... then I forced resin with filler into the hole and filled it up.  I kept the bolt hole mostly open with a wooden dowel wrapped with mylar (resin does not stick to mylar.. save those chips bags with the silver lining).  Light sand and deck paint and then rebed the base with butyl tape good as new.
                            >
                            > Andrew
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Scott Souder <souderscott997@...>
                            > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 10:57 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            > Would it cause any problems with other epoxies bonding over it? Would it cause problems with other epoxies bonding to wood already treated with CPES? I am curious because it is an epoxy and in most cases they seem to work fine one brand to another and all that...but the CPES has some solvent qualities to it as well. I would be nervous about it possibly effecting bonds I guess.
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
                            > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 9:08 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            > Actually CPES penetrates really far up to 15 inches!  No Kidding!.  On the site they show how it penetrated far enough to salvage rotted logs in a log home. 
                            > http://rotdoctor.com/test/penetration.html
                            >
                            > There is also a page about what it was used for to salvage really old wooden boats from rot.
                            > http://rotdoctor.com/boat/Bmain.html
                            >
                            > Andrew
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Roger Padvorac mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                            > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 5:22 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                            >
                            >  
                            > Nels,
                            > I should have been more explicit about what I found interesting in this article:
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_preservation#Wood_acetylation
                            > It talks about the chemicals in CPES causing a chemical change in the wood that makes it chemically incompatible with fungus and insect digestion - changes the wood so its just stuff, not food for fungus.
                            >
                            > This is an entirely separate issue from the general need to assemble the boat using strong connections and protect the surface of the wood from the weather.
                            >
                            > Something I haven't seen yet is how deep the chemical change from CPES reaches down into the wood. If only the top 1/8 inch of the wood is protected from rotting and the wood is 3/4 inch thick, and moisture and fungus spores get past that surface layer to the interior of the wood, then the interior of the wood will still rot, so there wasn't a whole lot of gain.
                            >
                            > If CPES does change wood so its incapable of being digested by fungus, and it does penetrate deep enough so that 100% of the thickness of wood is protected this way, then that would be pretty significant.
                            >
                            > Besides the fact that it would need to penetrate all the way through the wood to provide permanent protection, it would need to penetrate through the adhesive layers holding the plies of plywood together, to get to the center plies in the plywood. If it did all this (and didn't cause the plywood to delaminate), and blocked rotting and insect damage for an extended period, then it would be pretty amazing.
                            >
                            > So what we need is details on reliable test data on CPES depth of penetration in plain wood and in plywood, and how well the treated wood behaves in extended real world use.
                            >
                            > If CPES doesn't protect the middle of the wood from rot, then the existing good practice for epoxy seems like the best bet. I'm talking about fresh new wood here.
                            >
                            > For wood with spots of rot in it, I still feel its best to cut out the rot, and then splice in fresh wood. If CPES penetrates well and block rotting, then it might be useful to use it to treat the wood around where the rot spot was located, and treat the new wood, in case some fungus or spores remain in the old wood.
                            >
                            > Sincerely,
                            > Roger
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "prairiedog2332" mailto:nelsarv%40hotmail.com>
                            > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:18 AM
                            > Subject: [Michalak] CPES > Re:
                            >
                            > > According to most name brand epoxy manufacturers like West System there is very little advantage to thinning epoxy so that it penetrates better and several disadvantages. Probably this link is too long for yahoo but you can Google "Thinning epoxy" for more information. (Heating it a bit is probably the best way, but that sounds scary to me!)
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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