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Re: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

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  • john colley
    my thoughts.I sail a Hartley ts16.It has been know to recover from 110degrees.(tip of mast only a foot above the water) But,,,if it does go over it is
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 8, 2013
      my thoughts.I sail a Hartley ts16.It has been know to recover from 110degrees.(tip of mast only a foot above the water) But,,,if it does "go over" it is usually not self recoverable.Mine likes to heel at around 15Degrees and sit there.When it is pushed beyond that i start to worry.I would love a boat that is recoverable from 90.as in a knock down. if mine gets knocked down? it STAYS knocked down


       
      "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
      -Sigurd Olson


      ________________________________
      From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013 8:30 AM
      Subject: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


       
      I have been thinking about this as well since Picara is one of my
      favourite designs much like Bolger's Long Micro in both design and size
      and capability without the heavy keel.

      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm

      OK Fatcat2 is unballasted and seems to function quite well and Picara
      has a ft. wider beam. My question is - depending on where you sail or
      how far off-shore you intend to go - is it REALLY required it has to
      self-right from a 90 degree knock-down?

      My thinking is to add an extra layer to the bottom and try it out like
      that. Then during trails - including a tip-over trail - using the
      halyard to see how much force it takes to bring it over to about 45
      degrees then add ballast to get it where it seems safe. Perhaps some
      steel bars attached to the bulkheads like Jim uses on some of this
      larger sharpies, and/or batteries/sand bags, water jugs/stores secured
      under the bunks or wherever.

      A friend I know who had a Long Micro almost always starts out with a
      reef in the main as it is easier to shake one out than add one and winds
      generally perk up once you get away from shore. Ease of reefing is
      almost as important as adding ballast. So how about a full-length batten
      at each reef point and adding lazy jacks? Just ease the halyard and drop
      a batten down to the boom? Reef early and often is an old sailing saw.

      Bolger suggests in his similar designs the best option once things get
      windy is to send the crew below to lie down in the weather bunk rather
      than hang off the rail. Safer and just as effective if not more so.

      You do have to add enough ballast to get the upper chine low enough
      though to add stability. A final thought is how Jim designed the way to
      add the external lead shoe to the bottom of Darcy Bryn.

      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/darcybryn/index.htm

      I don't think Picara will work well with a lug main though as the mast
      is too far forward for a lug and it is already in a good location to
      have a tabernacle located in the self-draining forward well.

      As mentioned - if deciding on a lug main and water ballast - the better
      choice would be Blobster or maybe Caroline?

      Nels

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
      >
      > building the picara.checking out different ballast
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Roger Padvorac"
      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking
      of using water??????????
      >
      > Â
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Robert,
      > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are
      wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking
      of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of
      ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      > Roger
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sharpie3444
      Nels, whay do you think of a sprit to hold the peak of Picara s main sail up. I may give that a try? David Davis
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 8, 2013
        Nels, whay do you think of a sprit to hold the peak of Picara s main sail up. I may give that a try?

        David Davis

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
        >
        > I have been thinking about this as well since Picara is one of my
        > favourite designs much like Bolger's Long Micro in both design and size
        > and capability without the heavy keel.
        >
        > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
        >
        > OK Fatcat2 is unballasted and seems to function quite well and Picara
        > has a ft. wider beam. My question is - depending on where you sail or
        > how far off-shore you intend to go - is it REALLY required it has to
        > self-right from a 90 degree knock-down?
        >
        > My thinking is to add an extra layer to the bottom and try it out like
        > that. Then during trails - including a tip-over trail - using the
        > halyard to see how much force it takes to bring it over to about 45
        > degrees then add ballast to get it where it seems safe. Perhaps some
        > steel bars attached to the bulkheads like Jim uses on some of this
        > larger sharpies, and/or batteries/sand bags, water jugs/stores secured
        > under the bunks or wherever.
        >
        > A friend I know who had a Long Micro almost always starts out with a
        > reef in the main as it is easier to shake one out than add one and winds
        > generally perk up once you get away from shore. Ease of reefing is
        > almost as important as adding ballast. So how about a full-length batten
        > at each reef point and adding lazy jacks? Just ease the halyard and drop
        > a batten down to the boom? Reef early and often is an old sailing saw.
        >
        > Bolger suggests in his similar designs the best option once things get
        > windy is to send the crew below to lie down in the weather bunk rather
        > than hang off the rail. Safer and just as effective if not more so.
        >
        > You do have to add enough ballast to get the upper chine low enough
        > though to add stability. A final thought is how Jim designed the way to
        > add the external lead shoe to the bottom of Darcy Bryn.
        >
        > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/darcybryn/index.htm
        >
        > I don't think Picara will work well with a lug main though as the mast
        > is too far forward for a lug and it is already in a good location to
        > have a tabernacle located in the self-draining forward well.
        >
        >
        > As mentioned - if deciding on a lug main and water ballast - the better
        > choice would be Blobster or maybe Caroline?
        >
        > Nels
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@ wrote:
        > >
        > > building the picara.checking out different ballast
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Roger Padvorac"
        > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking
        > of using water??????????
        > >
        > > Â
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Robert,
        > > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are
        > wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking
        > of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of
        > ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
        > >
        > > Sincerely,
        > > Roger
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • rvwburg@att.net
        has anybody ever used rebar and concrete? ... From: Roger Padvorac To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 14, 2013
          has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...>
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
          Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

           




          Robert,
          It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

          Sincerely,
          Roger

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
          Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
          Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Boy
          Paul Fisher does in most of his designs.  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/sf/index.htm John Boy   I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 14, 2013
            Paul Fisher does in most of his designs.  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/sf/index.htm
            John Boy
             


            I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/

            “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 

            Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


            ________________________________
            From: "rvwburg@..." <rvwburg@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


             
            has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

             

            Robert,
            It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

            Sincerely,
            Roger

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
            Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rvwburg@att.net
            picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!! ... From: rvwburg@comcast.net To:
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
              picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!!

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: rvwburg@...
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

               




              has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@... >
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

               

              Robert,
              It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

              Sincerely,
              Roger

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
              Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
              Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sharpie3444
              One could make a form to fit the outer sole area of the utility room on Picara, say up to the top of the bilge panel and pour abt 4 concrete and steel concrete
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
                One could make a form to fit the outer sole area of the utility room on Picara, say up to the top of the bilge panel and pour abt 4 concrete and steel concrete weights to be the ballast for each side of the utility room. You would still have the bottom of two bulheads to hang steel or lead on to bring the weight to the desired amount. Secure with bolted in place with 2 X 6 's so they could be removed for maintenance or to adjust ballast placement. Consider heavy timbers for the base of the two bulkheads on either end of the utility room, the ballast will be anchored there, 2 X stock at least 6 inch, maybe 8 or 10 inches wide. Weight wont matter that low down, since it is a ballasted boat.

                Just above the ballast, on both sides of the utility room there is otherwise unused room to place foam flotation. 6 inches to 12 inches deep 2 foot wide and abt 3 foot tall, this would = either 3 or 6 cubit foot of flotation. 180 or 360 pounds flotation on each side = 360 or 720 pounds counting both sides.

                I would do the 180 X 2 = 360 pounds and not add a pound more than that of ballast! Flotation being above the ballast the boat should float upright if swamped.

                You will need a step dn when comming into the cabin from the aft deck, make it a watertight battery box, vent the top, it will add flotation and a place for batteries as low down as possible to act as addition ballast, perhaps as much as 120 pounds for two batteries, make the box so two large marine batteries fit, even if you plan on a smaller battery or no battery at all. You need the step and the floatation.

                Consider a big water tight airbox aft of the footwwell under the aft deck. Access hatch on the front of the bulkhead instead of on the deck.

                A couple ice chest one on either side of the utility room, under a cooking shelf to keep them from floating up, secured!

                A couple storage boxes under the aft deck, port and starbord ( behind ones legs when seated with the legs in the footwell ), 1/4 in plywood, water tight, keep them back under the deck so spray or rain wont get into them, secured! Might come to as much as 4 cubic ft = 240 pounds flotation.

                Storage boxes and ice chest will act as additional floataion if swamped.

                A Strong cover for the slot top! They make 10 oz polytarp, and 20 oz tarps for trucks. prepare to secure it well enough to keep most of the water out in a knock dn. Even sliding hatches covered with heavy polytarp might work.

                Just ideas, I ve done some of them, but any boat can be made safer than it is with just the basic plans

                David Davis



                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
                >
                > picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!!
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: rvwburg@...
                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03:23 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@... >
                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                >
                >  
                >
                > Robert,
                > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
                >
                > Sincerely,
                > Roger
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                > Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Martin Houston
                In my ferrocement 45 ftr I used iron pigs & 2inX2in steel bars 8 to 10 ft long with rebar thrown in every so often set in cement. 4 ton of it. Bilge water
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
                  In my ferrocement 45 ftr I used iron pigs & 2inX2in steel bars 8 to 10 ft long with rebar thrown in every so often set in cement. 4 ton of it. Bilge water intruded it rusting to top pieces cracking the cement. Chipped it away & sealed it with epoxy & glassed it over, worked good.



                  ________________________________
                  From: "rvwburg@..." <rvwburg@...>
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:03 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                   

                  has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Roger Padvorac" mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                  To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                   

                  Robert,
                  It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                  Sincerely,
                  Roger

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "robert" mailto:rvwburg%40comcast.net >
                  To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com >
                  Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                  Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Boy
                  A cubic foot of concrete weights around 144 pounds.  Maybe you could decide how much you want to trailer all the time and then use water ballast as trim or
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
                    A cubic foot of concrete weights around 144 pounds.  Maybe you could decide how much you want to trailer all the time and then use water ballast as trim or vary according to how much stuff you're packing for a trip.
                    John Boy
                     


                    I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/

                    “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 

                    Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


                    ________________________________
                    From: "rvwburg@..." <rvwburg@...>
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 2:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


                     
                    picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!!

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: rvwburg@...
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03:23 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                     

                    has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@... >
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                     

                    Robert,
                    It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                    Sincerely,
                    Roger

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                    Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                    Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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