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what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

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  • robert
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 1, 2013
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    • Donald Greer
      Robert, Several of Jim s designs have a water-ballast tank in the design. Look back in the archives about a month or so and there was a discussion of this.
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 1, 2013
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        Robert,
        Several of Jim's designs have a water-ballast tank in the design. Look
        back in the archives about a month or so and there was a discussion of this.
        The summery of what I got from that discussion is that water tanks take
        up far more space in a boat than do steel or lead weights, reducing, for
        instance, head room in an already small ("cuddy") cabin. It also creates
        an extra hole to spring a leak, and another place that gets wet and has to
        be watched carefully for rot.
        Of course, being able to drop your ballast at the boat ramp, or pump it
        out before trailering makes for lighter, cheaper trailers and better fuel
        milage.
        YMMV. :^)
        Don


        On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 9:58 AM, robert <rvwburg@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        --
        "I don't necessarily believe that software should be free, but if you pay
        for it, it should work." -- Me


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • noalias999
        I like to use water for ballast because it won t make your boat sink if you get swamped for some reason (like lead shot or sandbags might do). I only use
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 1, 2013
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          I like to use water for ballast because it won't make your boat sink if you get swamped for some reason (like lead shot or sandbags might do). I only use ballast to trim an otherwise badly trimmed boat.

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Donald Greer wrote:
          >
          > Robert,
          > Several of Jim's designs have a water-ballast tank in the design. Look
          > back in the archives about a month or so and there was a discussion of this.
          > The summery of what I got from that discussion is that water tanks take
          > up far more space in a boat than do steel or lead weights, reducing, for
          > instance, head room in an already small ("cuddy") cabin. It also creates
          > an extra hole to spring a leak, and another place that gets wet and has to
          > be watched carefully for rot.
          > Of course, being able to drop your ballast at the boat ramp, or pump it
          > out before trailering makes for lighter, cheaper trailers and better fuel
          > milage.
          > YMMV. :^)
          > Don
          >
          >
          > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 9:58 AM, robert wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > "I don't necessarily believe that software should be free, but if you pay
          > for it, it should work." -- Me
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Roger Padvorac
          Robert, It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 1, 2013
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            Robert,
            It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

            Sincerely,
            Roger

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "robert" <rvwburg@...>
            To: <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
            Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rvwburg@att.net
            building the picara.checking out different ballast ... From: Roger Padvorac To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 1,
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 1, 2013
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              building the picara.checking out different ballast

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...>
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
              Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

               




              Robert,
              It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

              Sincerely,
              Roger

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
              Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
              Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JeffreyM
              Michalak discusses this briefly at the bottom of his Picara entry in the Duckworks plans. To elaborate Jim s few words: the boat needs 500lb set as low as
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 2, 2013
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                Michalak discusses this briefly at the bottom of his Picara entry in the Duckworks plans. To elaborate Jim's few words: the boat needs 500lb set as low as possible (flat plates amidship); Water is much less dense than steel, so that the same mass of water wouldn't do the job, sine its center of gravity could not be so low in the hull. So the weight (and volume) of water ballast then has to be increased to compensate, and... the whole thing gets ridiculous very quickly.


                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
                >
                > building the picara.checking out different ballast
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Roger Padvorac"
                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Robert,
                > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
                >
                > Sincerely,
                > Roger
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                > Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Joseph Stromski
                I d suppose old car brake discs could be used for this. Maybe asking around at area brake shops would turn up a source for cheap ballast. joe
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 2, 2013
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                  I'd suppose old car brake discs could be used for this. Maybe asking around at
                  area brake shops would turn up a source for cheap ballast.
                  joe





                  ________________________________
                  From: JeffreyM <JMichalsbr@...>
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 9:16:59 PM
                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using
                  water??????????


                  Michalak discusses this briefly at the bottom of his Picara entry in the
                  Duckworks plans. To elaborate Jim's few words: the boat needs 500lb set as low
                  as possible (flat plates amidship); Water is much less dense than steel, so that
                  the same mass of water wouldn't do the job, sine its center of gravity could not
                  be so low in the hull. So the weight (and volume) of water ballast then has to
                  be increased to compensate, and... the whole thing gets ridiculous very quickly.

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
                  >
                  > building the picara.checking out different ballast
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Roger Padvorac"
                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using
                  >water??????????
                  >
                  >
                  > Â
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Robert,
                  > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting
                  >ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it.
                  >All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be
                  >most appropriate.
                  >
                  >
                  > Sincerely,
                  > Roger
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                  > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                  > Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using
                  >water??????????
                  >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • JeffreyM
                  Again, aim for low volume. The problem with round objects is they can t be arranged at maximum density. At the very least, the gaps between them represent a
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 3, 2013
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                    Again, aim for low volume. The problem with round objects is they can't be arranged at maximum density. At the very least, the gaps between them represent a lot of wasted boat space. We're talking 500lb, remember.

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Stromski wrote:
                    >
                    > I'd suppose old car brake discs could be used for this. Maybe asking around at
                    > area brake shops would turn up a source for cheap ballast.
                    > joe
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: JeffreyM
                    > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sat, February 2, 2013 9:16:59 PM
                    > Subject: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using
                    > water??????????
                    >
                    >
                    > Michalak discusses this briefly at the bottom of his Picara entry in the
                    > Duckworks plans. To elaborate Jim's few words: the boat needs 500lb set as low
                    > as possible (flat plates amidship); Water is much less dense than steel, so that
                    > the same mass of water wouldn't do the job, sine its center of gravity could not
                    > be so low in the hull. So the weight (and volume) of water ballast then has to
                    > be increased to compensate, and... the whole thing gets ridiculous very quickly.
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > building the picara.checking out different ballast
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Roger Padvorac"
                    > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using
                    > >water??????????
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Â
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Robert,
                    > > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting
                    > >ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it.
                    > >All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be
                    > >most appropriate.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Sincerely,
                    > > Roger
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "robert" rvwburg@ >
                    > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                    > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                    > > Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using
                    > >water??????????
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • sharpie3444
                    I ve suggested wood! in the form of more layers of plywood on the bottom and maybe bilge pannels. 50 lbs per sheet of 1/2 inch plywood, 6 sheets = three extra
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 3, 2013
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                      I ve suggested wood! in the form of more layers of plywood on the bottom and maybe bilge pannels. 50 lbs per sheet of 1/2 inch plywood, 6 sheets = three extra inches of bottom plank, maybe only 1 1/2 inches extra draft at about $ 300 may = about 250 pounds of ballast, the rest might be concreate and rebar in the outside 2 ft of the utility room sole -- leave the center 2 feet clear as a walkway and standing place to cook, dress or whatever. Watertight "box" to pour the concreate in so it might be sealed in place.

                      Also heavy wood framing below the waterline. Adds floating weight! seal it to prevent waterlogging

                      Guess I need to make a model with wood ballast and see how well it might work. Not sure how to make the test valid --- same size boats, 1/4 inch bottom plank vs 1 inch bottom plank, weights off centerline required to capsize and degree of the angle required to cause the capsize, something like that? ideas?

                      David
                    • Grant
                      I ve found railroad rails to be dense, heavy and cheap. They work great as spring weights on my mooring chain, and could be stacked closely in boat bottoms.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 3, 2013
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                        I've found railroad rails to be dense, heavy and cheap. They work great as "spring weights" on my mooring chain, and could be stacked closely in boat bottoms. In a recent trip to a recycling center, rails were the heaviest pieces I could find for minimum displacement -- and that's what you're looking for in ballast.
                      • Martin Houston
                        I have seen boats with a piece of rail bolted to the keel for ballast. ________________________________ From: Grant To:
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 4, 2013
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                          I have seen boats with a piece of rail bolted to the keel for ballast.



                          ________________________________
                          From: Grant <grant@...>
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2013 6:06 PM
                          Subject: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                           

                          I've found railroad rails to be dense, heavy and cheap. They work great as "spring weights" on my mooring chain, and could be stacked closely in boat bottoms. In a recent trip to a recycling center, rails were the heaviest pieces I could find for minimum displacement -- and that's what you're looking for in ballast.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Andres Espino
                          Gilbert used a piece of I-Beam as a keel for his sharpie SKIPPY for the around in 10 competition.  http://www.beaufort2.nl/skippyimages/PIC01087_sml.jpg
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 4, 2013
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                            Gilbert used a piece of I-Beam as a keel for his sharpie SKIPPY for the around in 10 competition. 
                            http://www.beaufort2.nl/skippyimages/PIC01087_sml.jpg

                            http://www.beaufort2.nl/skippyimages/PIC01088_sml.jpg

                            http://www.beaufort2.nl/skippyimages/PIC01091_sml.jpg

                            http://www.beaufort2.nl/skippyimages/PIC01092_sml.jpg


                            He did not obtain enough sponsors to set out.

                            Here is the construction page with all the pics of the construction of his sharpie.
                            http://www.beaufort2.nl/Skippy/Buildingprocess.html

                            There are a lot of things I like about SKIPPY and i thnk a 22 foot Skippy version might be an awesome ocean alternative to a Paradox!


                            Andrew



                            ________________________________
                            From: Grant <grant@...>
                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2013 6:06 PM
                            Subject: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


                             
                            I've found railroad rails to be dense, heavy and cheap. They work great as "spring weights" on my mooring chain, and could be stacked closely in boat bottoms. In a recent trip to a recycling center, rails were the heaviest pieces I could find for minimum displacement -- and that's what you're looking for in ballast.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • prairiedog2332
                            I have been thinking about this as well since Picara is one of my favourite designs much like Bolger s Long Micro in both design and size and capability
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 7, 2013
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                              I have been thinking about this as well since Picara is one of my
                              favourite designs much like Bolger's Long Micro in both design and size
                              and capability without the heavy keel.

                              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm

                              OK Fatcat2 is unballasted and seems to function quite well and Picara
                              has a ft. wider beam. My question is - depending on where you sail or
                              how far off-shore you intend to go - is it REALLY required it has to
                              self-right from a 90 degree knock-down?

                              My thinking is to add an extra layer to the bottom and try it out like
                              that. Then during trails - including a tip-over trail - using the
                              halyard to see how much force it takes to bring it over to about 45
                              degrees then add ballast to get it where it seems safe. Perhaps some
                              steel bars attached to the bulkheads like Jim uses on some of this
                              larger sharpies, and/or batteries/sand bags, water jugs/stores secured
                              under the bunks or wherever.

                              A friend I know who had a Long Micro almost always starts out with a
                              reef in the main as it is easier to shake one out than add one and winds
                              generally perk up once you get away from shore. Ease of reefing is
                              almost as important as adding ballast. So how about a full-length batten
                              at each reef point and adding lazy jacks? Just ease the halyard and drop
                              a batten down to the boom? Reef early and often is an old sailing saw.

                              Bolger suggests in his similar designs the best option once things get
                              windy is to send the crew below to lie down in the weather bunk rather
                              than hang off the rail. Safer and just as effective if not more so.

                              You do have to add enough ballast to get the upper chine low enough
                              though to add stability. A final thought is how Jim designed the way to
                              add the external lead shoe to the bottom of Darcy Bryn.

                              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/darcybryn/index.htm

                              I don't think Picara will work well with a lug main though as the mast
                              is too far forward for a lug and it is already in a good location to
                              have a tabernacle located in the self-draining forward well.


                              As mentioned - if deciding on a lug main and water ballast - the better
                              choice would be Blobster or maybe Caroline?

                              Nels



                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
                              >
                              > building the picara.checking out different ballast
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Roger Padvorac"
                              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking
                              of using water??????????
                              >
                              > Â
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Robert,
                              > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are
                              wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking
                              of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of
                              ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
                              >
                              > Sincerely,
                              > Roger
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • john colley
                              my thoughts.I sail a Hartley ts16.It has been know to recover from 110degrees.(tip of mast only a foot above the water) But,,,if it does go over it is
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 8, 2013
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                                my thoughts.I sail a Hartley ts16.It has been know to recover from 110degrees.(tip of mast only a foot above the water) But,,,if it does "go over" it is usually not self recoverable.Mine likes to heel at around 15Degrees and sit there.When it is pushed beyond that i start to worry.I would love a boat that is recoverable from 90.as in a knock down. if mine gets knocked down? it STAYS knocked down


                                 
                                "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                -Sigurd Olson


                                ________________________________
                                From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013 8:30 AM
                                Subject: [Michalak] Re: what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


                                 
                                I have been thinking about this as well since Picara is one of my
                                favourite designs much like Bolger's Long Micro in both design and size
                                and capability without the heavy keel.

                                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm

                                OK Fatcat2 is unballasted and seems to function quite well and Picara
                                has a ft. wider beam. My question is - depending on where you sail or
                                how far off-shore you intend to go - is it REALLY required it has to
                                self-right from a 90 degree knock-down?

                                My thinking is to add an extra layer to the bottom and try it out like
                                that. Then during trails - including a tip-over trail - using the
                                halyard to see how much force it takes to bring it over to about 45
                                degrees then add ballast to get it where it seems safe. Perhaps some
                                steel bars attached to the bulkheads like Jim uses on some of this
                                larger sharpies, and/or batteries/sand bags, water jugs/stores secured
                                under the bunks or wherever.

                                A friend I know who had a Long Micro almost always starts out with a
                                reef in the main as it is easier to shake one out than add one and winds
                                generally perk up once you get away from shore. Ease of reefing is
                                almost as important as adding ballast. So how about a full-length batten
                                at each reef point and adding lazy jacks? Just ease the halyard and drop
                                a batten down to the boom? Reef early and often is an old sailing saw.

                                Bolger suggests in his similar designs the best option once things get
                                windy is to send the crew below to lie down in the weather bunk rather
                                than hang off the rail. Safer and just as effective if not more so.

                                You do have to add enough ballast to get the upper chine low enough
                                though to add stability. A final thought is how Jim designed the way to
                                add the external lead shoe to the bottom of Darcy Bryn.

                                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/darcybryn/index.htm

                                I don't think Picara will work well with a lug main though as the mast
                                is too far forward for a lug and it is already in a good location to
                                have a tabernacle located in the self-draining forward well.

                                As mentioned - if deciding on a lug main and water ballast - the better
                                choice would be Blobster or maybe Caroline?

                                Nels

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
                                >
                                > building the picara.checking out different ballast
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Roger Padvorac"
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking
                                of using water??????????
                                >
                                > Â
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Robert,
                                > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are
                                wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking
                                of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of
                                ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
                                >
                                > Sincerely,
                                > Roger
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • sharpie3444
                                Nels, whay do you think of a sprit to hold the peak of Picara s main sail up. I may give that a try? David Davis
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 8, 2013
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                                  Nels, whay do you think of a sprit to hold the peak of Picara s main sail up. I may give that a try?

                                  David Davis

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I have been thinking about this as well since Picara is one of my
                                  > favourite designs much like Bolger's Long Micro in both design and size
                                  > and capability without the heavy keel.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/picara/index.htm
                                  >
                                  > OK Fatcat2 is unballasted and seems to function quite well and Picara
                                  > has a ft. wider beam. My question is - depending on where you sail or
                                  > how far off-shore you intend to go - is it REALLY required it has to
                                  > self-right from a 90 degree knock-down?
                                  >
                                  > My thinking is to add an extra layer to the bottom and try it out like
                                  > that. Then during trails - including a tip-over trail - using the
                                  > halyard to see how much force it takes to bring it over to about 45
                                  > degrees then add ballast to get it where it seems safe. Perhaps some
                                  > steel bars attached to the bulkheads like Jim uses on some of this
                                  > larger sharpies, and/or batteries/sand bags, water jugs/stores secured
                                  > under the bunks or wherever.
                                  >
                                  > A friend I know who had a Long Micro almost always starts out with a
                                  > reef in the main as it is easier to shake one out than add one and winds
                                  > generally perk up once you get away from shore. Ease of reefing is
                                  > almost as important as adding ballast. So how about a full-length batten
                                  > at each reef point and adding lazy jacks? Just ease the halyard and drop
                                  > a batten down to the boom? Reef early and often is an old sailing saw.
                                  >
                                  > Bolger suggests in his similar designs the best option once things get
                                  > windy is to send the crew below to lie down in the weather bunk rather
                                  > than hang off the rail. Safer and just as effective if not more so.
                                  >
                                  > You do have to add enough ballast to get the upper chine low enough
                                  > though to add stability. A final thought is how Jim designed the way to
                                  > add the external lead shoe to the bottom of Darcy Bryn.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/darcybryn/index.htm
                                  >
                                  > I don't think Picara will work well with a lug main though as the mast
                                  > is too far forward for a lug and it is already in a good location to
                                  > have a tabernacle located in the self-draining forward well.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > As mentioned - if deciding on a lug main and water ballast - the better
                                  > choice would be Blobster or maybe Caroline?
                                  >
                                  > Nels
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > building the picara.checking out different ballast
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: "Roger Padvorac"
                                  > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking
                                  > of using water??????????
                                  > >
                                  > > Â
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Robert,
                                  > > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are
                                  > wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking
                                  > of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of
                                  > ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
                                  > >
                                  > > Sincerely,
                                  > > Roger
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • rvwburg@att.net
                                  has anybody ever used rebar and concrete? ... From: Roger Padvorac To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 14, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Roger Padvorac" <roger@...>
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                     




                                    Robert,
                                    It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                                    Sincerely,
                                    Roger

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                                    Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                                    Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John Boy
                                    Paul Fisher does in most of his designs.  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/sf/index.htm John Boy   I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 14, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Paul Fisher does in most of his designs.  http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/sf/index.htm
                                      John Boy
                                       


                                      I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/

                                      “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 

                                      Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


                                      ________________________________
                                      From: "rvwburg@..." <rvwburg@...>
                                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


                                       
                                      has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@...>
                                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                       

                                      Robert,
                                      It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                                      Sincerely,
                                      Roger

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                                      Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                                      Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • rvwburg@att.net
                                      picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!! ... From: rvwburg@comcast.net To:
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!!

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: rvwburg@...
                                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03:23 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                         




                                        has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@... >
                                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                         

                                        Robert,
                                        It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Roger

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                                        Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                                        Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • sharpie3444
                                        One could make a form to fit the outer sole area of the utility room on Picara, say up to the top of the bilge panel and pour abt 4 concrete and steel concrete
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                          One could make a form to fit the outer sole area of the utility room on Picara, say up to the top of the bilge panel and pour abt 4 concrete and steel concrete weights to be the ballast for each side of the utility room. You would still have the bottom of two bulheads to hang steel or lead on to bring the weight to the desired amount. Secure with bolted in place with 2 X 6 's so they could be removed for maintenance or to adjust ballast placement. Consider heavy timbers for the base of the two bulkheads on either end of the utility room, the ballast will be anchored there, 2 X stock at least 6 inch, maybe 8 or 10 inches wide. Weight wont matter that low down, since it is a ballasted boat.

                                          Just above the ballast, on both sides of the utility room there is otherwise unused room to place foam flotation. 6 inches to 12 inches deep 2 foot wide and abt 3 foot tall, this would = either 3 or 6 cubit foot of flotation. 180 or 360 pounds flotation on each side = 360 or 720 pounds counting both sides.

                                          I would do the 180 X 2 = 360 pounds and not add a pound more than that of ballast! Flotation being above the ballast the boat should float upright if swamped.

                                          You will need a step dn when comming into the cabin from the aft deck, make it a watertight battery box, vent the top, it will add flotation and a place for batteries as low down as possible to act as addition ballast, perhaps as much as 120 pounds for two batteries, make the box so two large marine batteries fit, even if you plan on a smaller battery or no battery at all. You need the step and the floatation.

                                          Consider a big water tight airbox aft of the footwwell under the aft deck. Access hatch on the front of the bulkhead instead of on the deck.

                                          A couple ice chest one on either side of the utility room, under a cooking shelf to keep them from floating up, secured!

                                          A couple storage boxes under the aft deck, port and starbord ( behind ones legs when seated with the legs in the footwell ), 1/4 in plywood, water tight, keep them back under the deck so spray or rain wont get into them, secured! Might come to as much as 4 cubic ft = 240 pounds flotation.

                                          Storage boxes and ice chest will act as additional floataion if swamped.

                                          A Strong cover for the slot top! They make 10 oz polytarp, and 20 oz tarps for trucks. prepare to secure it well enough to keep most of the water out in a knock dn. Even sliding hatches covered with heavy polytarp might work.

                                          Just ideas, I ve done some of them, but any boat can be made safer than it is with just the basic plans

                                          David Davis



                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, rvwburg@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!!
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: rvwburg@...
                                          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03:23 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@... >
                                          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          > Robert,
                                          > It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.
                                          >
                                          > Sincerely,
                                          > Roger
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                                          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                                          > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                                          > Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Martin Houston
                                          In my ferrocement 45 ftr I used iron pigs & 2inX2in steel bars 8 to 10 ft long with rebar thrown in every so often set in cement. 4 ton of it. Bilge water
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                            In my ferrocement 45 ftr I used iron pigs & 2inX2in steel bars 8 to 10 ft long with rebar thrown in every so often set in cement. 4 ton of it. Bilge water intruded it rusting to top pieces cracking the cement. Chipped it away & sealed it with epoxy & glassed it over, worked good.



                                            ________________________________
                                            From: "rvwburg@..." <rvwburg@...>
                                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 6:03 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                             

                                            has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Roger Padvorac" mailto:roger%40skilledwright.com>
                                            To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                             

                                            Robert,
                                            It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                                            Sincerely,
                                            Roger

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "robert" mailto:rvwburg%40comcast.net >
                                            To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com >
                                            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                                            Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • John Boy
                                            A cubic foot of concrete weights around 144 pounds.  Maybe you could decide how much you want to trailer all the time and then use water ballast as trim or
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                              A cubic foot of concrete weights around 144 pounds.  Maybe you could decide how much you want to trailer all the time and then use water ballast as trim or vary according to how much stuff you're packing for a trip.
                                              John Boy
                                               


                                              I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/

                                              “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 

                                              Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


                                              ________________________________
                                              From: "rvwburg@..." <rvwburg@...>
                                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 2:54 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????


                                               
                                              picara sailboat is the one i was thinking about using concrete and rebar---thinking about trying water ballast too!!

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: rvwburg@...
                                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:03:23 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                               

                                              has anybody ever used rebar and concrete?

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Roger Padvorac" roger@... >
                                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Friday, February 1, 2013 12:31:30 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????

                                               

                                              Robert,
                                              It would be helpful if you shared the size and style of boat you are wanting ballast for, and the kinds of load and sailing your are thinking of doing in it. All this context has a big influence on what kinds of ballast solutions will be most appropriate.

                                              Sincerely,
                                              Roger

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "robert" rvwburg@... >
                                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com >
                                              Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 7:58 AM
                                              Subject: [Michalak] what all can be used for ballast-im thinking of using water??????????
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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