Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Mizzen for Piccup Pram

Expand Messages
  • pehrjansson
    I had some discussion yesterday with Chuck Lienweber and Paul Moffitt about mizzen design for the Piccup Pram I am building. Both suggest leg-o-mutton design.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 11, 2013
      I had some discussion yesterday with Chuck Lienweber and Paul Moffitt about mizzen design for the Piccup Pram I am building. Both suggest leg-o-mutton design. Chuck suggested 12 sq. ft. sail area (the main is 68 sq ft). I've drawn up two designs based on this. I have uploaded the drawings to the photo area (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/album/234103186/pic/list). In a nutshell design I is short and wide, II is tall and skinny. COE is only marginally further back on I, but is almost a foot higher on II.

      I intend to order the main sail with double reefing lines and have the boat set up for being able to handle fairly high winds as are often encountered on the Texas coast. Thus, with the main double reefed, the mizzen could provide as much as 25% of the total sail area.

      Are there pros-and-cons between the two mizzen designs given the intended use as an excursion sailboat for the Texas coast?
    • prairiedog2332
      I would choose the lower COE version. Two reasons. Shorter mast and may give a good balance when sailing downwind wing on wing with the low COE and reefed
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 12, 2013
        I would choose the lower COE version. Two reasons. Shorter mast and
        may give a good balance when sailing downwind wing on wing with the low
        COE and reefed main. Also I would go with a wider leeboard than the
        design originally called for as discussed earlier for better tacking
        ability. Just my thoughts - not based on any experience. I would go for
        a higher COE IF there were a cabin on the hull.
        Nels

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
        >
        > I had some discussion yesterday with Chuck Lienweber and Paul Moffitt
        about mizzen design for the Piccup Pram I am building. Both suggest
        leg-o-mutton design. Chuck suggested 12 sq. ft. sail area (the main is
        68 sq ft). I've drawn up two designs based on this. I have uploaded the
        drawings to the photo area
        (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/album/234103186/pic/list)\
        . In a nutshell design I is short and wide, II is tall and skinny. COE
        is only marginally further back on I, but is almost a foot higher on II.
        >
        > I intend to order the main sail with double reefing lines and have the
        boat set up for being able to handle fairly high winds as are often
        encountered on the Texas coast. Thus, with the main double reefed, the
        mizzen could provide as much as 25% of the total sail area.
        >
        > Are there pros-and-cons between the two mizzen designs given the
        intended use as an excursion sailboat for the Texas coast?
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John
        I like Jim s low COE 70sqft balanced lug with 2 reef points on the Piccup Pram joined with the shorter lower COE mizzen you propose. Having both high & low
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 13, 2013
          I like Jim's low COE 70sqft balanced lug with 2 reef points on the Piccup Pram joined with the shorter lower COE mizzen you propose.

          Having both high & low aspect ratio mizzens on my Goat Island Skiff and Hapscut, I find they both do their job nicely. Surprisingly the COE for the mizzens while rigged on the boat is about 4' above the water line but Hapscut COE for the mizzen sail by itself is lower.

          Both high and low aspect ratio mizzens work well, but I think they should match the main sail design ratio. My vote is for the low COE.

          Make your sprit long enough so you can grab the snotter end and steer with it. Both my sprits stick out about 12" from the mast and I can easily grab it and back wind the mizzen to steer the boat. We have done this to back into/away a dock or beach.

          Don't bother with reef points on the mizzen. I have had to beach the GIS and roll up the mizzen to get rid of the sail area during a hard upwind bash one time. Yet when the wind was too much for a downwind course we just dropped the main and sailed with mizzen alone. Then Stan Roberts showed me how he folds up his Family Skiff's mizzen by releasing the snotter and folding the sprit up onto the mast and wrapping it with a few sail ties. That way nothing gets untied. When ready to deploy the mizzen just pull the sail ties off, the mizzen drops down, tighten the snotter and go sailing. This is how my Hapscut mizzen is rigged now.

          I can see some of Jim's earlier design sketches show small leeboards, but Hapscut's leeboard is huge in comparison. The large leeboard works great so maybe bumping up with width would be helpful in improving windward/tacking performance.

          JDG



          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
          >
          > I would choose the lower COE version. Two reasons. Shorter mast and
          > may give a good balance when sailing downwind wing on wing with the low
          > COE and reefed main. Also I would go with a wider leeboard than the
          > design originally called for as discussed earlier for better tacking
          > ability. Just my thoughts - not based on any experience. I would go for
          > a higher COE IF there were a cabin on the hull.
          > Nels
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
          > >
          > > I had some discussion yesterday with Chuck Lienweber and Paul Moffitt
          > about mizzen design for the Piccup Pram I am building. Both suggest
          > leg-o-mutton design. Chuck suggested 12 sq. ft. sail area (the main is
          > 68 sq ft). I've drawn up two designs based on this. I have uploaded the
          > drawings to the photo area
          > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/album/234103186/pic/list)\
          > . In a nutshell design I is short and wide, II is tall and skinny. COE
          > is only marginally further back on I, but is almost a foot higher on II.
          > >
          > > I intend to order the main sail with double reefing lines and have the
          > boat set up for being able to handle fairly high winds as are often
          > encountered on the Texas coast. Thus, with the main double reefed, the
          > mizzen could provide as much as 25% of the total sail area.
          > >
          > > Are there pros-and-cons between the two mizzen designs given the
          > intended use as an excursion sailboat for the Texas coast?
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • pehrjansson
          Thank you John and Nels. I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 14, 2013
            Thank you John and Nels.

            I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as it is practical.

            I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do that part.

            Thanks a bunch.

            Pehr


            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
            >
            > I like Jim's low COE 70sqft balanced lug with 2 reef points on the Piccup Pram joined with the shorter lower COE mizzen you propose.
            >
            > Having both high & low aspect ratio mizzens on my Goat Island Skiff and Hapscut, I find they both do their job nicely. Surprisingly the COE for the mizzens while rigged on the boat is about 4' above the water line but Hapscut COE for the mizzen sail by itself is lower.
            >
            > Both high and low aspect ratio mizzens work well, but I think they should match the main sail design ratio. My vote is for the low COE.
            >
            > Make your sprit long enough so you can grab the snotter end and steer with it. Both my sprits stick out about 12" from the mast and I can easily grab it and back wind the mizzen to steer the boat. We have done this to back into/away a dock or beach.
            >
            > Don't bother with reef points on the mizzen. I have had to beach the GIS and roll up the mizzen to get rid of the sail area during a hard upwind bash one time. Yet when the wind was too much for a downwind course we just dropped the main and sailed with mizzen alone. Then Stan Roberts showed me how he folds up his Family Skiff's mizzen by releasing the snotter and folding the sprit up onto the mast and wrapping it with a few sail ties. That way nothing gets untied. When ready to deploy the mizzen just pull the sail ties off, the mizzen drops down, tighten the snotter and go sailing. This is how my Hapscut mizzen is rigged now.
            >
            > I can see some of Jim's earlier design sketches show small leeboards, but Hapscut's leeboard is huge in comparison. The large leeboard works great so maybe bumping up with width would be helpful in improving windward/tacking performance.
            >
            > JDG
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
            > >
            > > I would choose the lower COE version. Two reasons. Shorter mast and
            > > may give a good balance when sailing downwind wing on wing with the low
            > > COE and reefed main. Also I would go with a wider leeboard than the
            > > design originally called for as discussed earlier for better tacking
            > > ability. Just my thoughts - not based on any experience. I would go for
            > > a higher COE IF there were a cabin on the hull.
            > > Nels
            > >
            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I had some discussion yesterday with Chuck Lienweber and Paul Moffitt
            > > about mizzen design for the Piccup Pram I am building. Both suggest
            > > leg-o-mutton design. Chuck suggested 12 sq. ft. sail area (the main is
            > > 68 sq ft). I've drawn up two designs based on this. I have uploaded the
            > > drawings to the photo area
            > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/photos/album/234103186/pic/list)\
            > > . In a nutshell design I is short and wide, II is tall and skinny. COE
            > > is only marginally further back on I, but is almost a foot higher on II.
            > > >
            > > > I intend to order the main sail with double reefing lines and have the
            > > boat set up for being able to handle fairly high winds as are often
            > > encountered on the Texas coast. Thus, with the main double reefed, the
            > > mizzen could provide as much as 25% of the total sail area.
            > > >
            > > > Are there pros-and-cons between the two mizzen designs given the
            > > intended use as an excursion sailboat for the Texas coast?
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • prairiedog2332
            Pehr, When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice. Any chance of
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 14, 2013
              Pehr,
              When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking
              something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice.
              Any chance of having Paul's specs posted? If they work for him it would
              convince me. Really like John's suggestions as well and they are
              keepers. Very useful discussion.

              Nels

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
              >
              > Thank you John and Nels.
              >
              > I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my
              question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something
              half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and
              intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as
              it is practical.
              >
              > I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do
              that part.
              >
              > Thanks a bunch.
              >
              > Pehr
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • thatmoffitt
              Nels etc. My mizzen is Luff 6 8 Foot 3 5 and Leach 6 6 which I think comes out to 11.7 square feet. It is also the same size as the mizzen used on my
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 14, 2013
                Nels etc.
                My mizzen is Luff 6'8" Foot 3'5" and Leach 6'6" which I think comes out to 11.7 square feet. It is also the same size as the mizzen used on my brother Sean's piccup squared and is well tested and works great.
                Thanks
                Paul

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                >
                > Pehr,
                > When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking
                > something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice.
                > Any chance of having Paul's specs posted? If they work for him it would
                > convince me. Really like John's suggestions as well and they are
                > keepers. Very useful discussion.
                >
                > Nels
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                > >
                > > Thank you John and Nels.
                > >
                > > I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my
                > question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something
                > half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and
                > intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as
                > it is practical.
                > >
                > > I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do
                > that part.
                > >
                > > Thanks a bunch.
                > >
                > > Pehr
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • pehrjansson
                Nels. I uploaded a drawing I made from Paul s specs. Paul let me know if I got anything wrong on it and I ll correct accordingly. BTW: Chuck suggested
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 14, 2013
                  Nels. I uploaded a drawing I made from Paul's specs. Paul let me know if I got anything wrong on it and I'll correct accordingly. BTW: Chuck suggested hollows in both leech and foot.

                  Question Paul: Jim responded to my email and pointed out something to watch for is interference between the boom and the mizzen mast. Did you have to make any design mods, e.g., to the main sail and boom?

                  Pehr

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "thatmoffitt" wrote:
                  >
                  > Nels etc.
                  > My mizzen is Luff 6'8" Foot 3'5" and Leach 6'6" which I think comes out to 11.7 square feet. It is also the same size as the mizzen used on my brother Sean's piccup squared and is well tested and works great.
                  > Thanks
                  > Paul
                  >
                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Pehr,
                  > > When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking
                  > > something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice.
                  > > Any chance of having Paul's specs posted? If they work for him it would
                  > > convince me. Really like John's suggestions as well and they are
                  > > keepers. Very useful discussion.
                  > >
                  > > Nels
                  > >
                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you John and Nels.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my
                  > > question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something
                  > > half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and
                  > > intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as
                  > > it is practical.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do
                  > > that part.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks a bunch.
                  > > >
                  > > > Pehr
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • thatmoffitt
                  Pehr, Yeah the boom jut clears the mizzen but with enough room. If you mount the mizzen through the back deck you will have a problem with the boom. But if you
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 15, 2013
                    Pehr,
                    Yeah the boom jut clears the mizzen but with enough room. If you mount the mizzen through the back deck you will have a problem with the boom. But if you do what I did and mount it off the back bulkhead you will be fine. You can see pictures on my facebook album or look it up on youtube where I posted a walk around when I got finished with the boat. If you just search piccup it comes up as one of the first results.
                    Paul
                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                    >
                    > Nels. I uploaded a drawing I made from Paul's specs. Paul let me know if I got anything wrong on it and I'll correct accordingly. BTW: Chuck suggested hollows in both leech and foot.
                    >
                    > Question Paul: Jim responded to my email and pointed out something to watch for is interference between the boom and the mizzen mast. Did you have to make any design mods, e.g., to the main sail and boom?
                    >
                    > Pehr
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "thatmoffitt" wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Nels etc.
                    > > My mizzen is Luff 6'8" Foot 3'5" and Leach 6'6" which I think comes out to 11.7 square feet. It is also the same size as the mizzen used on my brother Sean's piccup squared and is well tested and works great.
                    > > Thanks
                    > > Paul
                    > >
                    > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Pehr,
                    > > > When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking
                    > > > something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice.
                    > > > Any chance of having Paul's specs posted? If they work for him it would
                    > > > convince me. Really like John's suggestions as well and they are
                    > > > keepers. Very useful discussion.
                    > > >
                    > > > Nels
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you John and Nels.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my
                    > > > question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something
                    > > > half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and
                    > > > intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as
                    > > > it is practical.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do
                    > > > that part.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks a bunch.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Pehr
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • thatmoffitt
                    Pehr, The drawing is correct. Like I said I hollowed the leech and you could certainly do the same to the foot although I did not. It is such a small sail and
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 15, 2013
                      Pehr,
                      The drawing is correct. Like I said I hollowed the leech and you could certainly do the same to the foot although I did not. It is such a small sail and it should never be sheeted in so tight that the trailing edges flap so I think I wouldn't hollow the foot. Just looking at the three pictures it seem like Sean's design is the nicest. He says he came up with that design on his own by just playing with the boat and a tape measure. It should be noted that it is raked back as well, which also allows the boom to clear the mizzen mast. I guess I should post some pictures or a drawing of the assemble we used? I'll work on that.
                      Paul

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                      >
                      > Nels. I uploaded a drawing I made from Paul's specs. Paul let me know if I got anything wrong on it and I'll correct accordingly. BTW: Chuck suggested hollows in both leech and foot.
                      >
                      > Question Paul: Jim responded to my email and pointed out something to watch for is interference between the boom and the mizzen mast. Did you have to make any design mods, e.g., to the main sail and boom?
                      >
                      > Pehr
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "thatmoffitt" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Nels etc.
                      > > My mizzen is Luff 6'8" Foot 3'5" and Leach 6'6" which I think comes out to 11.7 square feet. It is also the same size as the mizzen used on my brother Sean's piccup squared and is well tested and works great.
                      > > Thanks
                      > > Paul
                      > >
                      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Pehr,
                      > > > When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking
                      > > > something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice.
                      > > > Any chance of having Paul's specs posted? If they work for him it would
                      > > > convince me. Really like John's suggestions as well and they are
                      > > > keepers. Very useful discussion.
                      > > >
                      > > > Nels
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thank you John and Nels.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my
                      > > > question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something
                      > > > half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and
                      > > > intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as
                      > > > it is practical.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do
                      > > > that part.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks a bunch.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Pehr
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • JeffreyM
                      Pehr, What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I m thinking it might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I m willing to make a
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 15, 2013
                        Pehr,
                        What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I'm thinking it might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I'm willing to make a mess of my aft deck and transom.)

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                        >
                        > Nels. I uploaded a drawing I made from Paul's specs. Paul let me know if I got anything wrong on it and I'll correct accordingly. BTW: Chuck suggested hollows in both leech and foot.
                        >
                        > Question Paul: Jim responded to my email and pointed out something to watch for is interference between the boom and the mizzen mast. Did you have to make any design mods, e.g., to the main sail and boom?
                        >
                        > Pehr
                        >
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "thatmoffitt" wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Nels etc.
                        > > My mizzen is Luff 6'8" Foot 3'5" and Leach 6'6" which I think comes out to 11.7 square feet. It is also the same size as the mizzen used on my brother Sean's piccup squared and is well tested and works great.
                        > > Thanks
                        > > Paul
                        > >
                        > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Pehr,
                        > > > When I was first looking at the 2 choices I was actually thinking
                        > > > something half-way between as well. But that was not an offered choice.
                        > > > Any chance of having Paul's specs posted? If they work for him it would
                        > > > convince me. Really like John's suggestions as well and they are
                        > > > keepers. Very useful discussion.
                        > > >
                        > > > Nels
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "pehrjansson" wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thank you John and Nels.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I am going to go with the low aspect ratio design. After I posted my
                        > > > question here, Paul sent me the specs on his mizzen and it is something
                        > > > half-way between my two. However, I like the idea of a short mast and
                        > > > intuitively felt that lowering the COE would be better anyway as long as
                        > > > it is practical.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I'm saving away your thoughts on rigging so I can revisit when I do
                        > > > that part.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks a bunch.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Pehr
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • prairiedog2332
                        No darts. A mizzen sail pretty much has to be kept flat, otherwise it slats and flutters noisily when hove to or at anchor. I think the foot should be straight
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 16, 2013
                          No darts. A mizzen sail pretty much has to be kept flat, otherwise it
                          slats and flutters noisily when hove to or at anchor. I think the foot
                          should be straight as well, as it has a self-vanging effect that way
                          helping in keeping the leech tight and again preventing flutter. You
                          loosen the snotter a bit when off the wind and it will take some shape
                          that way.

                          Leech flutter can also happen if the sprit boom is too low on the mast.
                          Technically it should dissect the angle between the foot and the leech.
                          So it would attach about where the 6'8" figures are shown in Pehr's
                          diagram of Paul's sail. However if it is up that high and the boom is
                          longer to serve as a steering handle - as suggested by John - it may get
                          tangled up in the main boom when tacking. That is why some mizzens have
                          the mast sloping aft to avoid conflict.

                          Best guy to talk to is Polysail Dave as he is the expert. He has his own
                          discussion group.

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/60sailing/


                          Nels

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" wrote:
                          >
                          > Pehr,
                          > What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I'm thinking it
                          might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I'm
                          willing to make a mess of my aft deck and transom.)
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John
                          On my poly tarp mizzen, 23sqft on Hapscut, I put in a very small dart 3/8 x6 at the tack and 1.5 of fullness in the luff at about 30% up. My mizzen is very
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 16, 2013
                            On my poly tarp mizzen, 23sqft on Hapscut, I put in a very small dart 3/8"x6" at the tack and 1.5" of fullness in the luff at about 30% up. My mizzen is very full and works well. Since it is so full I use a lot of snotter tension in high winds.

                            If doing it again I would not put in the tack dart and only about 1" of fullness along the luff. My leech has a 1/2" hollow and the foot is straight.

                            Polysail Dave provided my kit and even went out of his way to get me purple tape to match the boat color.

                            JDG

                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                            >
                            > No darts. A mizzen sail pretty much has to be kept flat, otherwise it
                            > slats and flutters noisily when hove to or at anchor. I think the foot
                            > should be straight as well, as it has a self-vanging effect that way
                            > helping in keeping the leech tight and again preventing flutter. You
                            > loosen the snotter a bit when off the wind and it will take some shape
                            > that way.
                            >
                            > Leech flutter can also happen if the sprit boom is too low on the mast.
                            > Technically it should dissect the angle between the foot and the leech.
                            > So it would attach about where the 6'8" figures are shown in Pehr's
                            > diagram of Paul's sail. However if it is up that high and the boom is
                            > longer to serve as a steering handle - as suggested by John - it may get
                            > tangled up in the main boom when tacking. That is why some mizzens have
                            > the mast sloping aft to avoid conflict.
                            >
                            > Best guy to talk to is Polysail Dave as he is the expert. He has his own
                            > discussion group.
                            >
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/60sailing/
                            >
                            >
                            > Nels
                            >
                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Pehr,
                            > > What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I'm thinking it
                            > might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I'm
                            > willing to make a mess of my aft deck and transom.)
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • prairiedog2332
                            My posts don t seem to be getting through so will try again. Just wanted to inform that if going with high snotter tension it is suggested to add extra
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 16, 2013
                              My posts don't seem to be getting through so will try again.
                              Just wanted to inform that if going with high snotter tension it is
                              suggested to add extra reinforcement to the tack and clew corners of
                              the sail. Maybe even a patch of Dacron or nylon pack cloth. And in
                              combination with spur grommets.

                              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sailmaking/grommets/index.htm

                              Mizzen sails really help with many of Jim's designs since his hulls are
                              relatively light and shallow draft so tend to get blown around more than
                              heavier, deeper draft hulls. So a mizzen adds more control in holding a
                              course over just using the rudder. And to steady things when reefing or
                              at anchor.

                              Nels



                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                              >
                              > On my poly tarp mizzen, 23sqft on Hapscut, I put in a very small dart
                              3/8"x6" at the tack and 1.5" of fullness in the luff at about 30% up.
                              My mizzen is very full and works well. Since it is so full I use a lot
                              of snotter tension in high winds.
                              >
                              > If doing it again I would not put in the tack dart and only about 1"
                              of fullness along the luff. My leech has a 1/2" hollow and the foot is
                              straight.
                              >
                              > Polysail Dave provided my kit and even went out of his way to get me
                              purple tape to match the boat color.
                              >
                              > JDG
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andres Espino
                              I have been seeing them.. sometimes Yahoo takes a while when it is backed up I like reading your posts. Andrew ________________________________ From:
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 16, 2013
                                I have been seeing them.. sometimes Yahoo takes a while when it is backed up

                                I like reading your posts.

                                Andrew




                                ________________________________
                                From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:52 PM
                                Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mizzen for Piccup Pram


                                 
                                My posts don't seem to be getting through so will try again.
                                Just wanted to inform that if going with high snotter tension it is
                                suggested to add extra reinforcement to the tack and clew corners of
                                the sail. Maybe even a patch of Dacron or nylon pack cloth. And in
                                combination with spur grommets.

                                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sailmaking/grommets/index.htm

                                Mizzen sails really help with many of Jim's designs since his hulls are
                                relatively light and shallow draft so tend to get blown around more than
                                heavier, deeper draft hulls. So a mizzen adds more control in holding a
                                course over just using the rudder. And to steady things when reefing or
                                at anchor.

                                Nels

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                                >
                                > On my poly tarp mizzen, 23sqft on Hapscut, I put in a very small dart
                                3/8"x6" at the tack and 1.5" of fullness in the luff at about 30% up.
                                My mizzen is very full and works well. Since it is so full I use a lot
                                of snotter tension in high winds.
                                >
                                > If doing it again I would not put in the tack dart and only about 1"
                                of fullness along the luff. My leech has a 1/2" hollow and the foot is
                                straight.
                                >
                                > Polysail Dave provided my kit and even went out of his way to get me
                                purple tape to match the boat color.
                                >
                                > JDG
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • pehrjansson
                                I m barely a boatbuilder and certainly not a sailmaker. I ve delegated this task to Duckworks and trust Chuck s judgement on darts - I am thinking none. I
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 16, 2013
                                  I'm barely a boatbuilder and certainly not a sailmaker. I've delegated this task to Duckworks and trust Chuck's judgement on darts - I am thinking none.

                                  I love the accent tape on your sails John. It's a very nice touch.

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On my poly tarp mizzen, 23sqft on Hapscut, I put in a very small dart 3/8"x6" at the tack and 1.5" of fullness in the luff at about 30% up. My mizzen is very full and works well. Since it is so full I use a lot of snotter tension in high winds.
                                  >
                                  > If doing it again I would not put in the tack dart and only about 1" of fullness along the luff. My leech has a 1/2" hollow and the foot is straight.
                                  >
                                  > Polysail Dave provided my kit and even went out of his way to get me purple tape to match the boat color.
                                  >
                                  > JDG
                                  >
                                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > No darts. A mizzen sail pretty much has to be kept flat, otherwise it
                                  > > slats and flutters noisily when hove to or at anchor. I think the foot
                                  > > should be straight as well, as it has a self-vanging effect that way
                                  > > helping in keeping the leech tight and again preventing flutter. You
                                  > > loosen the snotter a bit when off the wind and it will take some shape
                                  > > that way.
                                  > >
                                  > > Leech flutter can also happen if the sprit boom is too low on the mast.
                                  > > Technically it should dissect the angle between the foot and the leech.
                                  > > So it would attach about where the 6'8" figures are shown in Pehr's
                                  > > diagram of Paul's sail. However if it is up that high and the boom is
                                  > > longer to serve as a steering handle - as suggested by John - it may get
                                  > > tangled up in the main boom when tacking. That is why some mizzens have
                                  > > the mast sloping aft to avoid conflict.
                                  > >
                                  > > Best guy to talk to is Polysail Dave as he is the expert. He has his own
                                  > > discussion group.
                                  > >
                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/60sailing/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Nels
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Pehr,
                                  > > > What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I'm thinking it
                                  > > might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I'm
                                  > > willing to make a mess of my aft deck and transom.)
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • JeffreyM
                                  I ll likely go with very narrow darts--I want some shape, but not too much strain on the snotter to flatten it out. Contemplating the mess in the basement; a
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 19, 2013
                                    I'll likely go with very narrow darts--I want some shape, but not too much strain on the snotter to flatten it out.

                                    Contemplating the mess in the basement; a Piccup project might be just the thing to motivate me to clean it up. Now I'm wondering what the thinking is on mizzen mast placement: I've seen photos of a mizzen stepped off the transom corner. But I'd think the best thing to do is get it as close to centerline as practical; in my case, to port of the rudder, since my main boom and yard are on that side of the mainmast. That way the main never blankets it close-hauled. Opinions?


                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > No darts. A mizzen sail pretty much has to be kept flat, otherwise it
                                    > slats and flutters noisily when hove to or at anchor. I think the foot
                                    > should be straight as well, as it has a self-vanging effect that way
                                    > helping in keeping the leech tight and again preventing flutter. You
                                    > loosen the snotter a bit when off the wind and it will take some shape
                                    > that way.
                                    >
                                    > Leech flutter can also happen if the sprit boom is too low on the mast.
                                    > Technically it should dissect the angle between the foot and the leech.
                                    > So it would attach about where the 6'8" figures are shown in Pehr's
                                    > diagram of Paul's sail. However if it is up that high and the boom is
                                    > longer to serve as a steering handle - as suggested by John - it may get
                                    > tangled up in the main boom when tacking. That is why some mizzens have
                                    > the mast sloping aft to avoid conflict.
                                    >
                                    > Best guy to talk to is Polysail Dave as he is the expert. He has his own
                                    > discussion group.
                                    >
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/60sailing/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Nels
                                    >
                                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Pehr,
                                    > > What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I'm thinking it
                                    > might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I'm
                                    > willing to make a mess of my aft deck and transom.)
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Gene Berry
                                    I mounted Andy s Junk mizzen just port side of the rudder and it seems to work very well. Gene Berry ... From: JeffreyM Subject:
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 19, 2013
                                      I mounted Andy's Junk mizzen just port side of the rudder and it seems to work very well.

                                      Gene Berry

                                      --- On Sat, 1/19/13, JeffreyM <JMichalsbr@...> wrote:

                                      From: JeffreyM <JMichalsbr@...>
                                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Mizzen for Piccup Pram
                                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, January 19, 2013, 7:06 PM
















                                       









                                      I'll likely go with very narrow darts--I want some shape, but not too much strain on the snotter to flatten it out.



                                      Contemplating the mess in the basement; a Piccup project might be just the thing to motivate me to clean it up. Now I'm wondering what the thinking is on mizzen mast placement: I've seen photos of a mizzen stepped off the transom corner. But I'd think the best thing to do is get it as close to centerline as practical; in my case, to port of the rudder, since my main boom and yard are on that side of the mainmast. That way the main never blankets it close-hauled. Opinions?



                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" wrote:

                                      >

                                      > No darts. A mizzen sail pretty much has to be kept flat, otherwise it

                                      > slats and flutters noisily when hove to or at anchor. I think the foot

                                      > should be straight as well, as it has a self-vanging effect that way

                                      > helping in keeping the leech tight and again preventing flutter. You

                                      > loosen the snotter a bit when off the wind and it will take some shape

                                      > that way.

                                      >

                                      > Leech flutter can also happen if the sprit boom is too low on the mast.

                                      > Technically it should dissect the angle between the foot and the leech.

                                      > So it would attach about where the 6'8" figures are shown in Pehr's

                                      > diagram of Paul's sail. However if it is up that high and the boom is

                                      > longer to serve as a steering handle - as suggested by John - it may get

                                      > tangled up in the main boom when tacking. That is why some mizzens have

                                      > the mast sloping aft to avoid conflict.

                                      >

                                      > Best guy to talk to is Polysail Dave as he is the expert. He has his own

                                      > discussion group.

                                      >

                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/60sailing/

                                      >

                                      >

                                      > Nels

                                      >

                                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" wrote:

                                      > >

                                      > > Pehr,

                                      > > What sort of darts would you put in that mizzen? I'm thinking it

                                      > might be fun to get out the polytarp! (Just have to decide if I'm

                                      > willing to make a mess of my aft deck and transom.)

                                      > >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      >



























                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.