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AF 3 gaff rig

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  • tsgosnell
    Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3 s rig be made into a gaffer, Moving the
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 4, 2013
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      Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer, Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail with gaff spars?
    • John Trussell
      Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also drawn a
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 4, 2013
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        Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on
        sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also
        drawn a couple of similar sized boats with gaff rigs (Fat Cat 2 and Skat)
        and the sail from one of these might be a good match for an AF3.



        JohnT



        _____

        From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of tsgosnell
        Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:23 PM
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Michalak] AF 3 gaff rig





        Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a
        lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer,
        Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail
        with gaff spars?





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tsgosnell
        Thanks, its not the math I m wondering about, Ive read all the essays about that. Its whether the sail design itself needs to be made differnt or can it be cut
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 4, 2013
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          Thanks, its not the math I'm wondering about, Ive read all the essays about that. Its whether the sail design itself needs to be made differnt or can it be cut the and sewn the same, then used as a lug or gaff with differnt spars.

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" wrote:
          >
          > Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on
          > sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also
          > drawn a couple of similar sized boats with gaff rigs (Fat Cat 2 and Skat)
          > and the sail from one of these might be a good match for an AF3.
          >
          >
          >
          > JohnT
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          > Of tsgosnell
          > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:23 PM
          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Michalak] AF 3 gaff rig
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a
          > lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer,
          > Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail
          > with gaff spars?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • John Trussell
          To experiment with different rigs, you could (and if you do, I would love to know what you find out) I assume you are talking about a balanced lug rig (with a
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 5, 2013
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            To experiment with different rigs, you could (and if you do, I would love to
            know what you find out)



            I assume you are talking about a balanced lug rig (with a boom and a yard).
            These are usually set with the mast aft of the leading edge of the sail by ¼
            to 1/3 the length of the boom. The mast on a balanced lug only needs to be
            long enough to hold up the yard (somewhere around 1/3 aft of the front of
            the yard). The leading edge of a balanced lug sail is under some stress and
            the sail needs some sort of downhaul to set properly..



            On a gaff rigged sail, the mast is at the leading edge of the sail and the
            mast needs to be longer to allow the peak halyard to hoist the gaff. Low
            aspect gaff rigs tend to have a lot of twist and benefit from a boom vang.



            To summarize, you will need two mast steps and possibly two different masts.
            You would probably need some way to attach jaws to the end of your yard and
            boom (you could screw plywood jaws on to the ends). The same sail could be
            used for both. .



            Have fun.



            John



            _____

            From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of tsgosnell
            Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 10:45 PM
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: AF 3 gaff rig





            Thanks, its not the math I'm wondering about, Ive read all the essays about
            that. Its whether the sail design itself needs to be made differnt or can it
            be cut the and sewn the same, then used as a lug or gaff with differnt
            spars.

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , "John
            Trussell" wrote:
            >
            > Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on
            > sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also
            > drawn a couple of similar sized boats with gaff rigs (Fat Cat 2 and Skat)
            > and the sail from one of these might be a good match for an AF3.
            >
            >
            >
            > JohnT
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
            [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
            Behalf
            > Of tsgosnell
            > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:23 PM
            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [Michalak] AF 3 gaff rig
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a
            > lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer,
            > Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail
            > with gaff spars?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • D.G. Cassidy
            If I understand you right. you want to know if you could build 1 balanced lug sail, build a second mast and mast step, and rig the balanced lug sail as a gaff
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 5, 2013
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              If I understand you right. you want to know if you could build 1 balanced lug sail, build a second mast and mast step, and rig the balanced lug sail as a gaff on the second mast.

              The proportions might look a bit odd, but I see no reason why you couldn't figure out the center of the sail hung as a gaff, which would tell you where the new mast would have to be. Since the sail would hang higher as a gaff, it would affect the righting moment of the boat, which could be a big problem. One other difficulty that comes to mind is that the added weight on the leading edge of the sail needed to hang it as a gaff (grommets?) would mess up the sail shape when you used it as a balanced lug.

              BTW, I have the balanced lug on my AF3 just as jim designed it, and it is simple to rig and a joy to sail.

              David C
              On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:44 PM, tsgosnell wrote:

              > Thanks, its not the math I'm wondering about, Ive read all the essays about that. Its whether the sail design itself needs to be made differnt or can it be cut the and sewn the same, then used as a lug or gaff with differnt spars.
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" wrote:
              > >
              > > Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on
              > > sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also
              > > drawn a couple of similar sized boats with gaff rigs (Fat Cat 2 and Skat)
              > > and the sail from one of these might be a good match for an AF3
              > >
              > > JohnT
              > > _____
              > >
              > > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > > Of tsgosnell
              > > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:23 PM
              > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [Michalak] AF 3 gaff rig
              > >
              > > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a
              > > lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer,
              > > Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail
              > > with gaff spars?
              > >
              > >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Martin Houston
              I thought about this also, but for WaterTribe you must be able to strike the rig easily. You could tabernacle it but you would need standing rigging. Also gaff
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 5, 2013
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                I thought about this also, but for WaterTribe you must be able to strike the rig easily. You could tabernacle it but you would need standing rigging. Also gaff rig uses a lot of lines, pullys & fittings making it more complicated. It could be done but I wouldn't use the same sail as the lug rig, I think the gaff would be too long. Also with a gaff a jib is nice, more complications. I decided to go with the lug rig as designed for simplicity, lightness, easy to strike & it looks like it would be fun to play with. I will run a sprit mizzen, 15 sq ft from a Wooboto option.
                Martin


                ________________________________
                From: D.G. Cassidy <d.cassidy@...>
                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 7:27 AM
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: AF 3 gaff rig


                 

                If I understand you right. you want to know if you could build 1 balanced lug sail, build a second mast and mast step, and rig the balanced lug sail as a gaff on the second mast.

                The proportions might look a bit odd, but I see no reason why you couldn't figure out the center of the sail hung as a gaff, which would tell you where the new mast would have to be. Since the sail would hang higher as a gaff, it would affect the righting moment of the boat, which could be a big problem. One other difficulty that comes to mind is that the added weight on the leading edge of the sail needed to hang it as a gaff (grommets?) would mess up the sail shape when you used it as a balanced lug.

                BTW, I have the balanced lug on my AF3 just as jim designed it, and it is simple to rig and a joy to sail.

                David C
                On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:44 PM, tsgosnell wrote:

                > Thanks, its not the math I'm wondering about, Ive read all the essays about that. Its whether the sail design itself needs to be made differnt or can it be cut the and sewn the same, then used as a lug or gaff with differnt spars.
                >
                > --- In mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" wrote:
                > >
                > > Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on
                > > sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also
                > > drawn a couple of similar sized boats with gaff rigs (Fat Cat 2 and Skat)
                > > and the sail from one of these might be a good match for an AF3
                > >
                > > JohnT
                > > _____
                > >
                > > From: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > > Of tsgosnell
                > > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:23 PM
                > > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [Michalak] AF 3 gaff rig
                > >
                > > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a
                > > lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer,
                > > Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail
                > > with gaff spars?
                > >
                > >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Boy
                Bolger s tabernacle was the inspiration for JM s design.  Both designs don t require a forestay, the mast gets lashed to the bottom of the tabernacle so it s
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 5, 2013
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                  Bolger's tabernacle was the inspiration for JM's design.  Both designs don't require a forestay, the mast gets lashed to the bottom of the tabernacle so it's a relatively quick up and down.

                  Scott's already done the EC a couple of years ago with Gary B, in fact he built Looney Toon with a mind to sail it in the EC.  Maybe one of these years, I'll get the time off from work to take LT on the EC.  Probably not because of my work schedule. :(

                  If you look at JM's designs, all of his cat rigged boats have long gaffs to keep the center of effort low.  The AF 2 is rigged as a gaffer and the exact same sail is rigged as a balanced lug on Normsboat.  If you look closely at NB, it's an AF2 with the bow and stern cut off.

                  The only drawback to the Toon2 design is it's cabin is too short to sleep in comfortably.  That's where the AF 3 comes in.  The T2's cabin is 71" and the AF3's is 7 feet long.  As Martin Harvey said in Captain Ron, "HUGE  Difference!"

                  The big deal for a cat rigged AF3 will be in the bow.  Will it be wide enough to stand up?  As for the extra strings, we may copy the sail shape from a Potter 15 or Reuel Parker's Egret sail. 

                  We shall see, saw dust will be swirling in a week or two.
                  John Boy


                  I have a blog!  http://toon2sailor.blogspot.com/

                  “Seaward ho! Hang the treasure! It's the glory of the sea that has turned my head.” 

                  Robert Louis Stevenson, Treasure Island


                  ________________________________
                  From: Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...>
                  To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 1:28 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: AF 3 gaff rig


                   
                  I thought about this also, but for WaterTribe you must be able to strike the rig easily. You could tabernacle it but you would need standing rigging. Also gaff rig uses a lot of lines, pullys & fittings making it more complicated. It could be done but I wouldn't use the same sail as the lug rig, I think the gaff would be too long. Also with a gaff a jib is nice, more complications. I decided to go with the lug rig as designed for simplicity, lightness, easy to strike & it looks like it would be fun to play with. I will run a sprit mizzen, 15 sq ft from a Wooboto option.
                  Martin


                  ________________________________
                  From: D.G. Cassidy d.cassidy@...>
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 7:27 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: AF 3 gaff rig


                   

                  If I understand you right. you want to know if you could build 1 balanced lug sail, build a second mast and mast step, and rig the balanced lug sail as a gaff on the second mast.

                  The proportions might look a bit odd, but I see no reason why you couldn't figure out the center of the sail hung as a gaff, which would tell you where the new mast would have to be. Since the sail would hang higher as a gaff, it would affect the righting moment of the boat, which could be a big problem. One other difficulty that comes to mind is that the added weight on the leading edge of the sail needed to hang it as a gaff (grommets?) would mess up the sail shape when you used it as a balanced lug.

                  BTW, I have the balanced lug on my AF3 just as jim designed it, and it is simple to rig and a joy to sail.

                  David C
                  On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:44 PM, tsgosnell wrote:

                  > Thanks, its not the math I'm wondering about, Ive read all the essays about that. Its whether the sail design itself needs to be made differnt or can it be cut the and sewn the same, then used as a lug or gaff with differnt spars.
                  >
                  > --- In mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com, "John Trussell" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Jim regularly experiments with different rigs and has written an essay on
                  > > sail area which you should probably read before you start. Jim has also
                  > > drawn a couple of similar sized boats with gaff rigs (Fat Cat 2 and Skat)
                  > > and the sail from one of these might be a good match for an AF3
                  > >
                  > > JohnT
                  > > _____
                  > >
                  > > From: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > > Of tsgosnell
                  > > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 1:23 PM
                  > > To: mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [Michalak] AF 3 gaff rig
                  > >
                  > > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged as a
                  > > lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a gaffer,
                  > > Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and rigging the sail
                  > > with gaff spars?
                  > >
                  > >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • prairiedog2332
                  If you want to rig a lug sail to a mast that is further forward than with a balance lug location, you can change it over to a standing lug. Hard to find a good
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 6, 2013
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                    If you want to rig a lug sail to a mast that is further forward than
                    with a balance lug location, you can change it over to a standing lug.
                    Hard to find a good way to do that though but it looks something like
                    this.

                    http://www.nestawayboats.com/page19.htm

                    And this - in a high aspect ratio version.

                    http://www.roxane-romilly.co.uk/

                    Nels



                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "tsgosnell" wrote:
                    >
                    > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged
                    as a lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a
                    gaffer, Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and
                    rigging the sail with gaff spars?
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Andres Espino
                    I think what he is asking is whether he can convert the boat entirely to a Gaffer and yes one can.  Because the COE  (Center of Effort) is Different you can
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 6, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think what he is asking is whether he can convert the boat entirely to a Gaffer and yes one can. 

                      Because the COE  (Center of Effort) is Different you can have either lug or gaff and a choice of many more sail designs on your AF3, but not all interchangeably.  You need to pick a rig and stay with it.  You cannot easily be a balanced lug today and a gaffer tomorrow and something else the next day.

                      Because a Gaff sail attaches to the mast either in a track or spiral line loop, the mast needs to be positioned the same as a Bermuda or Marconi rig and not as far forward as a catboat rig.  Often spars are heavier on a Gaffer than on a balanced lug and most gaff rigs have  some standing rigging.. but usually not a backstay because it gets in the way of the upper spar.  There is usually one or two shrouds on either side anchored to a chainplate on the bulkhead or the gumwale of the boat.  Often there is a forestay to accommodate standard Jib Sails.. and you can even have roller reefing.  I have plans in my other groups how to make roller reefing that works well  for about $50.   I have made it for my Buccaneer 24.   My last sharpie was a Gaff rigged sloop.  I went on to add lazyjackls and full battens to my mainsail to make it almost as easy to reef on the run as a junk rig,, but without all those extra ropes.

                      A rough idea of your COE is where the front luff of your sail is on your balanced lug rig. If your two spars and sail stick 18 inches ahead of the mast.. that is about how far forward the mast needs to go for a Gaff Rig.    It is better to err an inch or two too toward forward than too far aft.

                      This is because a Gaff main also tends to be wide and short about the dimensions of a lug sail.  They are not tall sails so many sharpies have gaff rigs which fare well with a 22 foot main mast.  Gaff spars are far heavier than balanced lug sails.  An upper spar can weigh about 60 lbs or more on a 26ft boat... usually solid wood.  My boom was also solid wood and about 3 inches in diameter in the middle and tapered slightly and weighed about 100 lbs.  There is no reason why one cannot use lighter aluminum pipe to make your spars and aluminum for the mast also.  Mine used wood because it was a copy of a vintage wooden sharpie.

                      This group does not support diagrams and pics within the text but I can give you a bit of gaff rig ideas with diagrams.  You can also make a decent polytarp gaff sail.

                      Andrew




                      ________________________________
                      From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 1:57 AM
                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: AF 3 gaff rig


                       
                      If you want to rig a lug sail to a mast that is further forward than
                      with a balance lug location, you can change it over to a standing lug.
                      Hard to find a good way to do that though but it looks something like
                      this.

                      http://www.nestawayboats.com/page19.htm

                      And this - in a high aspect ratio version.

                      http://www.roxane-romilly.co.uk/

                      Nels

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "tsgosnell" wrote:
                      >
                      > Jim writes that AF2 and Normsboat sail are the same, just one rigged
                      as a lug and one a gaff. My question is, could AF3's rig be made into a
                      gaffer, Moving the mast to the center of the forward bulkhead and
                      rigging the sail with gaff spars?
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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