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Re: Wooboto vs. Mayfly

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  • prairiedog2332
    From my experience following Bolger s writings for many years is that Jim did so even more so, sharing a lot communication and he also shared a lot of the
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2013
      From my experience following Bolger's writings for many years is that
      Jim did so even more so, sharing a lot communication and he also shared
      a lot of the same philosophy. Essentially looking at boat design from
      outside the box of the traditional way of doing things and also looking
      at new options for accomplishing the same goals in a simple way using
      materials available at most hardware and regular lumber outlets. Jim
      mentions the latter in the video posted earlier. There were no boat
      chanderies where he was located so he had no choice but follow a simpler
      way. And he was attracted to the "Instant Boat" building method
      developed by Bolger and Dynamite Payson.

      Bolger was also very conservative in espousing the capabilities of his
      small boat designs. He often pointed out that the level of capability of
      his designs often had more to do with the skills of the skipper than the
      ability of his designs. He also pointed out that the performance had a
      lot to do with the skills of the sail maker as much as the skills of the
      hull designer. Dynamite Payson who built many of Bolger's initial
      designs and tested out the plans for discrepancies was amazed what a
      skilled dinghy sailor could do with some of them during shakedown
      testing.

      Three things come to mind as breakthroughs from the traditional way of
      doing things. First - going with free-standing sail rigs with no
      complications of shrouds and stays and the need for a jib. Then shallow
      draft without a centreboard complication and easy to launch and trailer.
      Thirdly the development of poly tarp sails, making sail making within
      the capability of even a neophyte without a lot of money to spend. Poly
      tarp sails with really good performance where further developed by
      PolySail International and have been shipped all over the globe as well
      as offering DIY instructions.

      http://polysail.com/

      This is what I call synergy - where the sum of all the parts equals more
      than the sum of the individual parts. To me this makes small boat
      building as it stands now as the best it has ever been in history!

      Jim's bottom line seems to be that there is no reason why a beginning
      boat builder and sailor cannot get out on the water with a boat to be
      proud of without spending a lot of money.

      Happy 2013 everyone. Now get busy with a design you like and give it
      your best shot!

      Nels


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "souderscott997" wrote:
      >
      > I agree with you totally so I am not sure where Jim would disagree
      with anything at this point, or even where we disagree at this point. I
      think any designer these days is going to "underrate" to a degree simply
      because we live sadly in a world where some idiot wants to sue you over
      anything that may go wrong.
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@
      wrote:
      > >
      > > JM would probably disagree, but I think he underrates his designs a
      considerable amount! Every one of his boats is far tougher and more
      capable than he is willing to tell folks, which is understandable.Â
      In my opinion Jims boats are every bit as durable as Bolger boats.. and
      one can see a lot of Bolger in many of his designs.
      > >
      > > Musicbox 2 is an almost duplicate of the Bolger Micro without the
      complicated keel to cast from lead. Viola is very close to the
      Bolger Martha Jame.
      > >
      > > Andrew




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andres Espino
      Yeah... I meant that Jim would probably say he does not underrate his designs but gives a true representation of their capability,  I still think they exceed
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 2, 2013
        Yeah... I meant that Jim would probably say he does not underrate his designs but gives a true representation of their capability,  I still think they exceed their design description tho

        Andrew




        ________________________________
        From: souderscott997 <souderscott997@...>
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:59 PM
        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Wooboto vs. Mayfly


         
        I agree with you totally so I am not sure where Jim would disagree with anything at this point, or even where we disagree at this point. I think any designer these days is going to "underrate" to a degree simply because we live sadly in a world where some idiot wants to sue you over anything that may go wrong.

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
        >
        > JM would probably disagree, but I think he underrates his designs a considerable amount!  Every one of his boats is far tougher and more capable than he is willing to tell folks, which is understandable.  In my opinion Jims boats are every bit as durable as Bolger boats.. and one can see a lot of Bolger in many of his designs.
        >
        > Musicbox 2 is an almost duplicate of the Bolger Micro without the complicated keel to cast from lead.  Viola is very close to the Bolger Martha Jame.
        >
        > Andrew
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: souderscott997 <souderscott997@...>
        > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:16 PM
        > Subject: [Michalak] Wooboto vs. Mayfly
        >
        >
        >  
        > I think Wooboto offers more of a range of sailing than the Mayfly with better performance. I am not an experienced sailor at all but have read 1000's of pages of info on hull design and that is why I chose the Wooboto for my first build. It should offer more "room to grow" as a sailor. The guy that built the first one sailed it all over the San Francisco bay...so considering I am on Colorado lakes...I should be good. It seems that sailing is like anything else in that once you get reasonably well at it you begin to try and sqeeze a bit more performance into your sailing, and enjoy having the possibility. The flatiron skiff design has a much lower ceiling I guess you could say with sailing. It would be easier to build but not too much easier than Wooboto and the "room to grow" factor to me at least is why I went with Wooboto. Money was also a thing to consider and I can't imagine the difference is more than 100-150 dollars even with epoxy etc...figured
        > in. It should be more responsive under oar or sail than the Mayfly.I love the lines on the water of the Wooboto as well. It has a look that you might find in a South Pacific island or something. I have concluded for me anyways this will not be the last boat I build and the more unique the lines the more it "sings to me" for sure. I am an absolute fan of Bolger and therefore Michalak.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • prairiedog2332
        Yes I think they do exceed their intended design description as well. Jim has been surprised on many occasions how well some of his designs perform. I think a
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 2, 2013
          Yes I think they do exceed their intended design description as well.
          Jim has been surprised on many occasions how well some of his designs
          perform. I think a lot of people are turned off by the initial
          impression when looking at the cartoons of many of his earlier designs.
          I know I was. The masts seemed to be too far aft and the lug sail pretty
          low tech - not much more than a bed sheet . The sheer lines were too
          straight and the ends looked to be too far out of the water, especially
          the bows. And the idea of that single leeboard and the external chine
          logs was just too clunky looking to be taken seriously. A couple of them
          Bolger even found too ugly and that is saying a lot:-)

          Those early designs like Piccup and the box series are still selling
          well and proving themselves. The first 2 I bought were for Piccup
          Squared and Pencil box and I passed on them.

          Nels
          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino wrote:
          >
          > Yeah... I meant that Jim would probably say he does not underrate his
          designs but gives a true representation of their capability, I
          still think they exceed their design description tho
          >
          > Andrew
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: souderscott997 souderscott997@...
          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:59 PM
          > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Wooboto vs. Mayfly
          >
          >
          > Â
          > I agree with you totally so I am not sure where Jim would disagree
          with anything at this point, or even where we disagree at this point. I
          think any designer these days is going to "underrate" to a degree simply
          because we live sadly in a world where some idiot wants to sue you over
          anything that may go wrong.
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@
          wrote:
          > >
          > > JM would probably disagree, but I think he underrates his designs a
          considerable amount! Every one of his boats is far tougher and
          more capable than he is willing to tell folks, which is
          understandable. In my opinion Jims boats are every bit as
          durable as Bolger boats.. and one can see a lot of Bolger in many of his
          designs.
          > >
          > > Musicbox 2 is an almost duplicate of the Bolger Micro without the
          complicated keel to cast from lead. Viola is very close to the
          Bolger Martha Jame.
          > >
          > > Andrew
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ________________________________
          > > From: souderscott997 souderscott997@
          > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:16 PM
          > > Subject: [Michalak] Wooboto vs. Mayfly
          > >
          > >
          > > ÂÂ
          > > I think Wooboto offers more of a range of sailing than the Mayfly
          with better performance. I am not an experienced sailor at all but have
          read 1000's of pages of info on hull design and that is why I chose the
          Wooboto for my first build. It should offer more "room to grow" as a
          sailor. The guy that built the first one sailed it all over the San
          Francisco bay...so considering I am on Colorado lakes...I should be
          good. It seems that sailing is like anything else in that once you get
          reasonably well at it you begin to try and sqeeze a bit more performance
          into your sailing, and enjoy having the possibility. The flatiron skiff
          design has a much lower ceiling I guess you could say with sailing. It
          would be easier to build but not too much easier than Wooboto and the
          "room to grow" factor to me at least is why I went with Wooboto. Money
          was also a thing to consider and I can't imagine the difference is more
          than 100-150 dollars even with epoxy etc...figured
          > > in. It should be more responsive under oar or sail than the
          Mayfly.I love the lines on the water of the Wooboto as well. It has a
          look that you might find in a South Pacific island or something. I have
          concluded for me anyways this will not be the last boat I build and the
          more unique the lines the more it "sings to me" for sure. I am an
          absolute fan of Bolger and therefore Michalak.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andres Espino
          LOL @ Nels... YES that is exactly my reaction I had when I first saw Phil Bolger s boats!  When I first saw a Micro, I said to myself what an ugly duck ! 
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 2, 2013
            LOL @ Nels... YES that is exactly my reaction I had when I first saw Phil Bolger's boats!  When I first saw a Micro, I said to myself "what an ugly duck"!  Whoever would want to own or worse be seen sailing in such a lumbering box!  Most had large bed sheet type lugsails too and an ugly mizzen that was stuck off in a rear corner of the boat not in line like traditional craft had.

            Now I find that Bolger boats tend to grow on a person and after following the Micros exploits and youtube videos I find I am rather a fan of that little boat.

            Since the passing of Phil Bolger and later Harold "Dynamite" Payson, I think Jim Michalak is probably the last one currently creating and selling plans for boats similar to Bolger's.  Like Bolger and Payson's Instant boat idea, JM's boats mostly do not require complicated lofting, strongback jigs, steaming lumber, casting keels, and so much else that used to make home boat building such a bother.  Jim sells his plans so cheap they remind me of the old Popular Mechanix plans of the 60's.

            The thing about boxy boats which Bolger knew and the rest of us had to catch on to, is that they are superbly practical, easy and cheap to build, easy and forgiving to sail, and relatively maintenance free.  What more can a fellow demand of a boat?

            Andrew




            ________________________________
            From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 10:04 AM
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Wooboto vs. Mayfly


             
            Yes I think they do exceed their intended design description as well.
            Jim has been surprised on many occasions how well some of his designs
            perform. I think a lot of people are turned off by the initial
            impression when looking at the cartoons of many of his earlier designs.
            I know I was. The masts seemed to be too far aft and the lug sail pretty
            low tech - not much more than a bed sheet . The sheer lines were too
            straight and the ends looked to be too far out of the water, especially
            the bows. And the idea of that single leeboard and the external chine
            logs was just too clunky looking to be taken seriously. A couple of them
            Bolger even found too ugly and that is saying a lot:-)

            Those early designs like Piccup and the box series are still selling
            well and proving themselves. The first 2 I bought were for Piccup
            Squared and Pencil box and I passed on them.

            Nels
            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino wrote:
            >
            > Yeah... I meant that Jim would probably say he does not underrate his
            designs but gives a true representation of their capability, I
            still think they exceed their design description tho
            >
            > Andrew
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: souderscott997 souderscott997@...
            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:59 PM
            > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Wooboto vs. Mayfly
            >
            >
            > Â
            > I agree with you totally so I am not sure where Jim would disagree
            with anything at this point, or even where we disagree at this point. I
            think any designer these days is going to "underrate" to a degree simply
            because we live sadly in a world where some idiot wants to sue you over
            anything that may go wrong.
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@
            wrote:
            > >
            > > JM would probably disagree, but I think he underrates his designs a
            considerable amount! Every one of his boats is far tougher and
            more capable than he is willing to tell folks, which is
            understandable. In my opinion Jims boats are every bit as
            durable as Bolger boats.. and one can see a lot of Bolger in many of his
            designs.
            > >
            > > Musicbox 2 is an almost duplicate of the Bolger Micro without the
            complicated keel to cast from lead. Viola is very close to the
            Bolger Martha Jame.
            > >
            > > Andrew
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ________________________________
            > > From: souderscott997 souderscott997@
            > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:16 PM
            > > Subject: [Michalak] Wooboto vs. Mayfly
            > >
            > >
            > > ÂÂ
            > > I think Wooboto offers more of a range of sailing than the Mayfly
            with better performance. I am not an experienced sailor at all but have
            read 1000's of pages of info on hull design and that is why I chose the
            Wooboto for my first build. It should offer more "room to grow" as a
            sailor. The guy that built the first one sailed it all over the San
            Francisco bay...so considering I am on Colorado lakes...I should be
            good. It seems that sailing is like anything else in that once you get
            reasonably well at it you begin to try and sqeeze a bit more performance
            into your sailing, and enjoy having the possibility. The flatiron skiff
            design has a much lower ceiling I guess you could say with sailing. It
            would be easier to build but not too much easier than Wooboto and the
            "room to grow" factor to me at least is why I went with Wooboto. Money
            was also a thing to consider and I can't imagine the difference is more
            than 100-150 dollars even with epoxy etc...figured
            > > in. It should be more responsive under oar or sail than the
            Mayfly.I love the lines on the water of the Wooboto as well. It has a
            look that you might find in a South Pacific island or something. I have
            concluded for me anyways this will not be the last boat I build and the
            more unique the lines the more it "sings to me" for sure. I am an
            absolute fan of Bolger and therefore Michalak.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Andres Espino
            very well said.  I moderate over in pelican-sail and there has been some discussion and debate about using lumberyard materials and so on after I brought it
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 2, 2013
              very well said. 

              I moderate over in pelican-sail and there has been some discussion and debate about using lumberyard materials and so on after I brought it up one day.  I recently posted some info that came from Bolger and JM and also Jeff Spira who sells mostly dory plans.  He has adjusted all his plans like JM to lumberyard measurements and in his instructions he discusses that the use of waterproof glues has mostly taken over in plywood.  What one has to contend with is plugs and voids mostly.

              Jeff offers several free eBooks and essays for beginning boatbuilders and the use of lumberyard materials is covered in his free bool ply on frame construction.
              http://www.spirainternational.com/downloads/PlyOnFrameManual.pdf

              He says in there that he recommends marine ply but a good boat can be built with lumberyard ply if care is taken in the construction.  He mentions several points for builders.

              While marine ply is still most desirable, exterior plywood has improved while marine has gone downhill in the USA.  The US now allows up to 20% voids and plugs per side even in marine ply.  Hardwood ply like mahogany has no knots and thus no plugs and voids to speak of.  Even a top grade fir ply can make a good boat if thre ply is sealed with resin inside and out.  Glen-L recommends this with all wood on all their boat projects and they coined the term 'encapsuelate' the wood.


              I live far fro the coast and any marinas and truck freight costs are huge when ordering large itemns alike lumber.  I am refurbishing a vintage 24 foot factory fiberglass boat and the hull is sound.  I opted to use AB grade exterior ply for the repairs to the interior cabinetry and dividing bulkheads.. and have acheived good results.  I completely encapsuelated the wood with resin and then painted it.

              besides polysail international... I like them too.. another col site is simplicity boats.. home of the $10 yuloh plans.. but they have lots of great info as well  http://www.simplicityboats.com/


               I built the $10 yuloh and it is a great project and works well, tho the article was written back in the day and it actually cost me around $30 getting everything at ACE hardware.  The Yuloh plans and page is here  http://www.simplicityboats.com/yulohpage2.html

              There is an entire treatise on sculling one page back from that.. and there are pages of vintage boat designs, 1 and 2 sheet boats,  and sails and all kinds of neat stuff.  By the way there are vintage boat plans on Polysail international site too.  http://polysail.com/

              Andrew


              ________________________________
              From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, January 1, 2013 10:48 PM
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Wooboto vs. Mayfly


               
              From my experience following Bolger's writings for many years is that
              Jim did so even more so, sharing a lot communication and he also shared
              a lot of the same philosophy. Essentially looking at boat design from
              outside the box of the traditional way of doing things and also looking
              at new options for accomplishing the same goals in a simple way using
              materials available at most hardware and regular lumber outlets. Jim
              mentions the latter in the video posted earlier. There were no boat
              chanderies where he was located so he had no choice but follow a simpler
              way. And he was attracted to the "Instant Boat" building method
              developed by Bolger and Dynamite Payson.

              Bolger was also very conservative in espousing the capabilities of his
              small boat designs. He often pointed out that the level of capability of
              his designs often had more to do with the skills of the skipper than the
              ability of his designs. He also pointed out that the performance had a
              lot to do with the skills of the sail maker as much as the skills of the
              hull designer. Dynamite Payson who built many of Bolger's initial
              designs and tested out the plans for discrepancies was amazed what a
              skilled dinghy sailor could do with some of them during shakedown
              testing.

              Three things come to mind as breakthroughs from the traditional way of
              doing things. First - going with free-standing sail rigs with no
              complications of shrouds and stays and the need for a jib. Then shallow
              draft without a centreboard complication and easy to launch and trailer.
              Thirdly the development of poly tarp sails, making sail making within
              the capability of even a neophyte without a lot of money to spend. Poly
              tarp sails with really good performance where further developed by
              PolySail International and have been shipped all over the globe as well
              as offering DIY instructions.

              http://polysail.com/

              This is what I call synergy - where the sum of all the parts equals more
              than the sum of the individual parts. To me this makes small boat
              building as it stands now as the best it has ever been in history!

              Jim's bottom line seems to be that there is no reason why a beginning
              boat builder and sailor cannot get out on the water with a boat to be
              proud of without spending a lot of money.

              Happy 2013 everyone. Now get busy with a design you like and give it
              your best shot!

              Nels

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "souderscott997" wrote:
              >
              > I agree with you totally so I am not sure where Jim would disagree
              with anything at this point, or even where we disagree at this point. I
              think any designer these days is going to "underrate" to a degree simply
              because we live sadly in a world where some idiot wants to sue you over
              anything that may go wrong.
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino ima_very_cool_cowboy@
              wrote:
              > >
              > > JM would probably disagree, but I think he underrates his designs a
              considerable amount! Every one of his boats is far tougher and more
              capable than he is willing to tell folks, which is understandable.Â
              In my opinion Jims boats are every bit as durable as Bolger boats.. and
              one can see a lot of Bolger in many of his designs.
              > >
              > > Musicbox 2 is an almost duplicate of the Bolger Micro without the
              complicated keel to cast from lead. Viola is very close to the
              Bolger Martha Jame.
              > >
              > > Andrew

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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