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Re: [Michalak] Re: Deck screws?

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  • Joseph Stromski
    I agree. My AF4 was completely assembled with ring nails (and a variety of glues), except I used stainless ones. I think I ordered 2 boxes from Jamestown
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 4, 2012
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      I agree. My AF4 was completely assembled with ring nails (and a variety of
      glues), except I used stainless ones. I think I ordered 2 boxes from Jamestown
      Distributors. IIRC, one box was 3/4" long for attaching thin 1/4" ply to
      framing, the other was 1 1/4" long for attaching the thicker 1/2" bottom panels
      to the chines. I wish I would've used bronze ones there, cuz I hit a few of them
      with the roundover bit in my router when rounding that area over. The only place
      I used screws was on the "removable" top to the motor well, and since that's
      specified as 1/2" ply, countersinking some stainless flathead screws was no
      issue.
      I also see no reason why coated deck screws couldn't be successfully used, in a
      freshwater only environment. There's many ways to skin a cat in this hobby!

      Best,




      ________________________________
      From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, August 4, 2012 1:48:21 PM
      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Deck screws?


      Silicone Bronze Ring Shank nails are still my first choice.

      http://www.epoxy5050.com/cgi-supplies/shop.pl?type=topic&topic_name_value=silicon_bronze_fasteners&cart_id=08b639168db73ca85c491e5066d423cd

      <http://www.epoxy5050.com/cgi-supplies/shop.pl?type=topic&topic_name_value=silicon_bronze_fasteners&cart_id=08b639168db73ca85c491e5066d423cd>


      I got mine from Noah's in Canada. The methods as to how to use them are
      very well described in both Jim's and Dynamite Payson's build books.
      Advantages are they are non-corrosive - even if they get hit with a
      sander or grinder - and not so likely to damage tools. And they never
      seem to stain the wood if they do get wet.

      But mostly I just can't see countersinking screws into plywood esp. thin
      plywood which is used in a lot of Jim's designs. Countersinking just
      tears the grain, weakens and opens the plies to moisture. A light ra
      with a ball peen hammer can countersink a ring nail just a bit and can
      be covered with a skim coat of fairing compound prior to glassing or
      painting. No tearing of the ply surface around the nail head.

      If using SS screws to close up the flotation chambers at each end and
      make them removable later using a sealing compound - rather than epoxy -
      I'm thinking round head screws and leave them exposed. In fact you can
      get them with heads that have a small washer already a part of the
      screw. Can't recall what they are called now. My supplier has them.

      Traditional wood and canvas canoe builders countersink the outwhale
      screws but they never bung them over that I have seen. Maybe that is
      required in salt water. But again if SS or SB I can't see that as
      necessary. But then I am not going to take my boat to a WoodenBoat
      show:-)
      Nels

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Andres Espino
      <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes screws are more commonly used now than bronze marine nails.Â
      yes you need to still rely on stainless . Tho they are countersunk
      and sealed in below filler and resin water has a will to find ebntry and
      if it reaches the wood through crazing or crack or around a through bolt
      and starts to get to t he wood it will reach the screw sideways through
      the material. Zinc screws last only a matter of a few months in
      salt water corrosion.
      >
      > You are talking about a matter of a few cents difference in price.Â
      Duckworks sells SS screws for around $4/box 100
      > http://duckworksbbs.com/fasteners/screws/ss/index.htm
      >
      >
      > Andrew
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Curran Bishop curranb79@...
      > To: Michalak Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, August 2, 2012 9:32 PM
      > Subject: [Michalak] Deck screws?
      >
      >
      > Â
      > I have a question: I don't think I've heard of using deck screws for
      > boatbuilding, but I'm wondering: if they're counter-sunk and sealed
      under
      > epoxy, is there any reason to spend the extra money on stainless?
      >
      > --
      > Currie Bishop
      > 5822 W. Park Ave.
      > St. Louis, MO 63110
      > cell: 314.605.2133
      > http://thebishopspulpit.tk
      >
      > " 'Round our boat be God's aboutness,
      > 'er we try the depth of sea,
      > egg-shell frail for all her stoutness
      > unless Thou her helmsman be."
      > -- Old Scottish Prayer
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Donald Greer
      So, let me ask this. ,such of what I ve been reading says that the nails are mostly redundant after the glue or epoxy dries and you can use things like pan
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 4, 2012
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        So, let me ask this. ,such of what I've been reading says that the nails
        are mostly redundant after the glue or epoxy dries and you can use things
        like pan head or drywall screws as long as you remove them an fill the
        holes. So, why would you go to the expense of ring-shank nails (other than
        to save time)? You could use screws on the boat skins just like aircraft
        builders use clinkers. Hell, you could even reduce the potential damage by
        putting cut washers on the screws and spreading out the load across the
        wood.

        Am I missing something?

        Don


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joseph Stromski
        I used them as a way to hold things together while the glue dried. Screws can do the same thing, but the hole they leave behind will require filling and
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 4, 2012
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          I used them as a way to hold things together while the glue dried. Screws can do
          the same thing, but the hole they leave behind will require filling and sanding.
          You hit the nail on the head (pun intended), when you said "to save time". Plus
          I like to think of them as a little insurance. The cost of the two boxes of
          nails was maybe $12, so its not like they were a huge expense. As far as
          temporary screws go, I prefer truss head screws, which have a washer of sorts
          built right in to the head, to spread the load and reduce chances of pulling it
          through, just like you said.
          Personally, I feel that a boat like an AF4 (which is what Curry's building) will
          work just fine, and last equally long, with any combination of fasteners, or
          epoxy only. Epoxy isn't the only option either, I used a combination of TB3, PL
          Premium, epoxy, and fiberglass. The boat will be plenty strong for reasonable
          usage if its constructed carefully. Longevity will largely be determined by how
          its stored and maintained.
          You'll find as many opinions on this topic as there are builders out there. The
          axiom "YMMV" definitely applies.

          Best,
          Joe





          ________________________________
          From: Donald Greer <dgreer@...>
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, August 4, 2012 3:32:26 PM
          Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Deck screws?


          So, let me ask this. ,such of what I've been reading says that the nails
          are mostly redundant after the glue or epoxy dries and you can use things
          like pan head or drywall screws as long as you remove them an fill the
          holes. So, why would you go to the expense of ring-shank nails (other than
          to save time)? You could use screws on the boat skins just like aircraft
          builders use clinkers. Hell, you could even reduce the potential damage by
          putting cut washers on the screws and spreading out the load across the
          wood.

          Am I missing something?

          Don

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • JeffreyM
          Thank you, Mark, for a clear and logical explanation.
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 4, 2012
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            Thank you, Mark, for a clear and logical explanation.


            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
            >
            > Stainless needs oxygen to avoid corrosion. No need for them.
            >
            > From http://chemistry.about.com/cs/metalsandalloys/a/aa071201a.htm
            > The chromium in the steel combines with oxygen in the atmosphere to
            > form a thin, invisible layer of chrome-containing oxide, called the
            > passive film. The sizes of chromium atoms and their oxides are
            > similar, so they pack neatly together on the surface of the metal,
            > forming a stable layer only a few atoms thick. If the metal is cut or
            > scratched and the passive film is disrupted, more oxide will quickly
            > form and recover the exposed surface, protecting it from oxidative
            > corrosion. The passive film requires oxygen to self-repair, so
            > stainless steels have poor corrosion resistance in low-oxygen and
            > poor circulation environments. In seawater, chlorides from the salt
            > will attack and destroy the passive film more quickly than it can be
            > repaired in a low oxygen environment.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > On Aug 2, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Curran Bishop wrote:
            >
            > > I have a question: I don't think I've heard of using deck screws for
            > > boatbuilding, but I'm wondering: if they're counter-sunk and sealed
            > > under
            > > epoxy, is there any reason to spend the extra money on stainless?
            > >
            > > --
            > > Currie Bishop
            > > 5822 W. Park Ave.
            > > St. Louis, MO 63110
            > > cell: 314.605.2133
            > > http://thebishopspulpit.tk
            > >
            > > " 'Round our boat be God's aboutness,
            > > 'er we try the depth of sea,
            > > egg-shell frail for all her stoutness
            > > unless Thou her helmsman be."
            > > -- Old Scottish Prayer
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • prairiedog2332
            Here is what Jamestown Dist. says about fasteners. I have found them to be a very good source even though they are in USA and I m in Canada.
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 4, 2012
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              Here is what Jamestown Dist. says about fasteners. I have found them to
              be a very good source even though they are in USA and I'm in Canada.

              http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_category.do?categ\
              oryName=Fasteners&category=1&page=GRID&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=sitel\
              ink_fasteners
              <http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search_category.do?cate\
              goryName=Fasteners&category=1&page=GRID&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=site\
              link_fasteners>
              If you don't read the entire article you will never know when you should
              use Ackempucky and you really should know that!
              Nels
              -In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "JeffreyM" <JMichalsbr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you, Mark, for a clear and logical explanation.
              >
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese marka97203@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Stainless needs oxygen to avoid corrosion. No need for them.
              > >
              > > From http://chemistry.about.com/cs/metalsandalloys/a/aa071201a.htm
              > > The chromium in the steel combines with oxygen in the atmosphere to
              > > form a thin, invisible layer of chrome-containing oxide, called the
              > > passive film. The sizes of chromium atoms and their oxides are
              > > similar, so they pack neatly together on the surface of the metal,
              > > forming a stable layer only a few atoms thick. If the metal is cut
              or
              > > scratched and the passive film is disrupted, more oxide will quickly
              > > form and recover the exposed surface, protecting it from oxidative
              > > corrosion. The passive film requires oxygen to self-repair, so
              > > stainless steels have poor corrosion resistance in low-oxygen and
              > > poor circulation environments. In seawater, chlorides from the salt
              > > will attack and destroy the passive film more quickly than it can be
              > > repaired in a low oxygen environment.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Andres Espino
              In repairing bulkheads on factory fiberglass boats I often use Deck screws like you mention until my fillets set up.  Then i remove them and fill and top with
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 4, 2012
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                In repairing bulkheads on factory fiberglass boats I often use Deck screws like you mention until my fillets set up.  Then i remove them and fill and top with a dab of gelcoat.  I use the screws just as temp clamps.

                Stitch and glue construction needs no screws and yes i suppose they are redundant.. I sure like them tho and usually use ss screws while building and epoxy them over as a force of habit.

                Andrew



                ________________________________
                From: Donald Greer <dgreer@...>
                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2012 1:32 PM
                Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Deck screws?


                 
                So, let me ask this. ,such of what I've been reading says that the nails
                are mostly redundant after the glue or epoxy dries and you can use things
                like pan head or drywall screws as long as you remove them an fill the
                holes. So, why would you go to the expense of ring-shank nails (other than
                to save time)? You could use screws on the boat skins just like aircraft
                builders use clinkers. Hell, you could even reduce the potential damage by
                putting cut washers on the screws and spreading out the load across the
                wood.

                Am I missing something?

                Don

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tim Anderson
                Here is my two bits, i screwed a plastic coated deck screw through a piece of line that was tied to my anchor rode and saw no deterioration after 1 year in
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 6, 2012
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                  Here is my two bits, i screwed a plastic coated deck screw through a piece
                  of line that was tied to my anchor rode and saw no deterioration after 1
                  year in salt water at San Diego Bay. An uncoated drywall screw that i
                  placed next to it had left only a rusty mark where it had been. I now use
                  plastic coated deck screws with glee for dang near everything, the star
                  drive makes them strip proof. Tim P Anderson


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Hajo Smulders
                  Yep; one of the nice things about the star drive is that I can use them over and over for clamping. Since I bought them in the large boxes; I should have
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 6, 2012
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                    Yep; one of the nice things about the star drive is that I can use them
                    over and over for clamping.
                    Since I bought them in the large boxes; I should have enough of them to
                    last me, if not a lifetime, at least a decade...
                    On a side note: If you haven't been thanked lately: Your kiteboard cookbook
                    is still totally relevant today. Great job!
                    (Assuming you are the MIT Tim Anderson...)

                    Hajo
                    --
                    "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and
                    then beat you with experience" (Mark Twain)


                    On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Tim Anderson <naturalist71261@...>wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Here is my two bits, i screwed a plastic coated deck screw through a piece
                    > of line that was tied to my anchor rode and saw no deterioration after 1
                    > year in salt water at San Diego Bay. An uncoated drywall screw that i
                    > placed next to it had left only a rusty mark where it had been. I now use
                    > plastic coated deck screws with glee for dang near everything, the star
                    > drive makes them strip proof. Tim P Anderson
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • OnEvenKeel
                    By chance had the screw been driven (and extracted) prior to this test? I am wondering how durably the coating withstands normal installation. ... [Non-text
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 6, 2012
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                      By chance had the screw been driven (and extracted) prior to this test? I am wondering how durably the coating withstands normal installation.

                      On Aug 6, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Tim Anderson <naturalist71261@...> wrote:

                      > Here is my two bits, i screwed a plastic coated deck screw through a piece
                      > of line that was tied to my anchor rode and saw no deterioration after 1
                      > year in salt water at San Diego Bay. An uncoated drywall screw that i
                      > placed next to it had left only a rusty mark where it had been. I now use
                      > plastic coated deck screws with glee for dang near everything, the star
                      > drive makes them strip proof. Tim P Anderson
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Curran Bishop
                      Thanks everyone for the input - I was actually considering Walmart deck screws (some sort of yellow mettal that isn t plastic coated) and your input has
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 6, 2012
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                        Thanks everyone for the input - I was actually considering Walmart 'deck'
                        screws (some sort of yellow mettal that isn't plastic coated) and your
                        input has swayed me toward more seaworthy solutions (I was just thinking,
                        "hey this is above the waterline, on a boat that'll spend most of its time
                        on a trailer, and it'll be painted/epoxied over...")

                        On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 3:21 PM, OnEvenKeel <onevenkeel@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > By chance had the screw been driven (and extracted) prior to this test? I
                        > am wondering how durably the coating withstands normal installation.
                        >
                        > On Aug 6, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Tim Anderson <naturalist71261@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > Here is my two bits, i screwed a plastic coated deck screw through a
                        > piece
                        > > of line that was tied to my anchor rode and saw no deterioration after 1
                        > > year in salt water at San Diego Bay. An uncoated drywall screw that i
                        > > placed next to it had left only a rusty mark where it had been. I now use
                        > > plastic coated deck screws with glee for dang near everything, the star
                        > > drive makes them strip proof. Tim P Anderson
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        --
                        Currie Bishop
                        5822 W. Park Ave.
                        St. Louis, MO 63110
                        cell: 314.605.2133
                        http://thebishopspulpit.tk

                        " 'Round our boat be God's aboutness,
                        'er we try the depth of sea,
                        egg-shell frail for all her stoutness
                        unless Thou her helmsman be."
                        -- Old Scottish Prayer


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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