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Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram

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  • Mike
    Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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      Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).

      I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.

      Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

      Have been keeping a photo journal off the build and would like to post it soon. Thank you.

      Regards,
      Mike
    • D.G. Cassidy
      What does JM call for in the plans? I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify. This is one of JM s most popular designs; if the was a problem with
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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        What does JM call for in the plans?
        I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
        This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.

        Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz. cloth is sufficient for this purpose).

        Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights, simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).

        David C

        On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:

        > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
        >
        > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • gary
        Mike: The ultraply by itself is enough. But I d glass the inside bottom anyway to protect from tracking sand, crushed shells, etc. in the boat. Think of those
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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          Mike: The ultraply by itself is enough. But I'd glass the inside bottom anyway to protect from tracking sand, crushed shells, etc. in the boat. Think of those as extra-coarse sandpaper. I'm assuming your glassing the outside bottom too for abrasion resistance and it's amazing how much stiffer the boat gets with a layer of glass on each side of the bottom.

          Gary

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
          >
          > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
          >
          > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.
          >
          > Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Have been keeping a photo journal off the build and would like to post it soon. Thank you.
          >
          > Regards,
          > Mike
          >
        • Mike
          Gary, thank you.that is what I am leaning towards because it will get the most wear and tear from use . Yes I am planning on putting a layer of fiberglass
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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            Gary, thank you.that is what I am leaning towards because it will get the most wear and tear from use . Yes I am planning on putting a layer of fiberglass cloth on the outside bottom panel .
            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mike: The ultraply by itself is enough. But I'd glass the inside bottom anyway to protect from tracking sand, crushed shells, etc. in the boat. Think of those as extra-coarse sandpaper. I'm assuming your glassing the outside bottom too for abrasion resistance and it's amazing how much stiffer the boat gets with a layer of glass on each side of the bottom.
            >
            > Gary
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <rudder59@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
            > >
            > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.
            > >
            > > Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
            > >
            > > Have been keeping a photo journal off the build and would like to post it soon. Thank you.
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > > Mike
            > >
            >
          • Mike
            David, Thank you. JM s plans call for 1/4 plywood . Sureply is slightly thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn t creating a problem with it.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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              David,
              Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem with it.
              Mike

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
              >
              > What does JM call for in the plans?
              > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
              > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
              >
              > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz. cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
              >
              > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights, simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
              >
              > David C
              >
              > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
              >
              > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
              > >
              > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Scot McPherson
              Dude, that s not slightly thinner...that s a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore 7.5 mm =
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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                Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may crumple under load.

                Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                Old Lyme, CT
                Le Claire, IA
                http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                Sent from my iPhone

                On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:

                > David,
                > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem with it.
                > Mike
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                > >
                > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz. cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                > >
                > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights, simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                > >
                > > David C
                > >
                > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                > >
                > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                > > >
                > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Houston
                Or glass the heck out of it, both sides. ________________________________ From: Scot McPherson To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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                  Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.



                  ________________________________
                  From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                  To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram



                   

                  Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may crumple under load.

                  Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                  Old Lyme, CT
                  Le Claire, IA
                  http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:

                  > David,
                  > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem with it.
                  > Mike
                  >
                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                  > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                  > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                  > >
                  > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz. cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                  > >
                  > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights, simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                  > >
                  > > David C
                  > >
                  > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                  > > >
                  > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin on that open area.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Scot Mc Pherson
                  yes, but depending on how far he s gotten or how easy it would be to laminate another layer on, heavy glassing it MAY be a lot more expensive and the core may
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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                    yes, but depending on how far he's gotten or how easy it would be to
                    laminate another layer on, heavy glassing it MAY be a lot more
                    expensive and the core may still not be thick enough to provide the
                    strength gotten from glassing. You need some separation between the
                    layers of glass (i.e. the plywood core), for the glass to be
                    structurally strong.

                    No to mention glass is heavy and not bouyant...so you want to think
                    about this one...consider how far you have gone with the boat, and
                    whether it might be easier to laminate another layer of 4mm ply on it.
                    I think it certainly would be cheaper...again depending on how far.

                    Scot



                    On 6/3/12, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                    > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                    > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                    > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore
                    > 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I would either
                    > scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may crumple under
                    > load.
                    >
                    > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                    > Old Lyme, CT
                    > Le Claire, IA
                    > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> David,
                    >> Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                    >> thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                    >> with it.
                    >> Mike
                    >>
                    >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > What does JM call for in the plans?
                    >> > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                    >> > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                    >> > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                    >> >
                    >> > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though
                    >> > it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a
                    >> > protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are
                    >> > going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                    >> > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                    >> >
                    >> > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                    >> > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                    >> > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                    >> > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                    >> >
                    >> > David C
                    >> >
                    >> > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                    >> > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I
                    >> > > can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                    >> > > plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                    >> > >
                    >> > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                    >> > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                    >> > > just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                    >> > > will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                    >> > > cloth and resin on that open area.
                    >> > >
                    >> > >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                    Old Lyme, CT, USA
                    Le Claire, IA, USA
                    Scot McPherson | Linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson>
                  • David Calloway
                    An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I d feel safe with 5mm glassed both sides, just my 2 cents, dave ... [Non-text portions of this message have
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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                      An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with 5mm
                      glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,

                      dave

                      On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                      > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                      > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                      > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I
                      > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may
                      > crumple under load.
                      >
                      > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                      > Old Lyme, CT
                      > Le Claire, IA
                      > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > David,
                      > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                      > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                      > with it.
                      > > Mike
                      > >
                      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                      > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                      > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                      > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                      > > >
                      > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer
                      > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being
                      > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you
                      > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                      > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                      > > >
                      > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                      > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                      > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                      > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                      > > >
                      > > > David C
                      > > >
                      > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                      > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do
                      > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood
                      > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                      > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just
                      > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get
                      > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and
                      > resin on that open area.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mike
                      I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is guaranteed not to have
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
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                        I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                        I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on concerns that everyone has expressed.

                        Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.

                        Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.

                        Mike

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway <david@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with 5mm
                        > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                        >
                        > dave
                        >
                        > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                        > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                        > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                        > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I
                        > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may
                        > > crumple under load.
                        > >
                        > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                        > > Old Lyme, CT
                        > > Le Claire, IA
                        > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                        > > Sent from my iPhone
                        > >
                        > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > David,
                        > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                        > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                        > > with it.
                        > > > Mike
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                        > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                        > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                        > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer
                        > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being
                        > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you
                        > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                        > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                        > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                        > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                        > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                        > > > >
                        > > > > David C
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                        > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do
                        > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood
                        > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                        > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just
                        > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get
                        > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and
                        > > resin on that open area.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • John Boy
                        The Red Scamp is built out of UltraPly XL and Mike Monies Laguno Dos was built out of Sureply.  He did the TX200 and the OBX130 in it.  In fact they did the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The Red Scamp is built out of UltraPly XL and Mike Monies Laguno Dos was built out of Sureply.  He did the TX200 and the OBX130 in it.  In fact they did the OBX130 in a tropical storm.
                          John Boy
                           



                          Arrh, fortune rides the shoulders of them what schemes.  
                          Long John Silver


                          ________________________________
                          From: Mike <rudder59@...>
                          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 8:17 PM
                          Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram


                           
                          I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                          I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on concerns that everyone has expressed.

                          Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.

                          Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.

                          Mike

                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway <david@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with 5mm
                          > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                          >
                          > dave
                          >
                          > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                          > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                          > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                          > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I
                          > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may
                          > > crumple under load.
                          > >
                          > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                          > > Old Lyme, CT
                          > > Le Claire, IA
                          > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                          > > Sent from my iPhone
                          > >
                          > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > David,
                          > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                          > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                          > > with it.
                          > > > Mike
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                          > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                          > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                          > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer
                          > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being
                          > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you
                          > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                          > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                          > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                          > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                          > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > David C
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                          > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do
                          > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood
                          > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                          > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just
                          > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get
                          > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and
                          > > resin on that open area.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mike
                          Scot . Checked manufacturer specs.it s 5.2-5.5 mm thickness.Putting fiberglass cloth on bottom and up the side panels to some extent. Thinking of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Scot
                            . Checked manufacturer specs.it's 5.2-5.5 mm thickness.Putting fiberglass cloth on bottom and up the side panels to some extent. Thinking of fiberglassing inside open area where you sit and floor of that area.

                            Just thought of something else in terms of structural strength of side panel at that thickness to mount Leeboard. Have to think this one out. Thanks for the feedback.

                            Mike
                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Scot Mc Pherson <scot.mcpherson@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > yes, but depending on how far he's gotten or how easy it would be to
                            > laminate another layer on, heavy glassing it MAY be a lot more
                            > expensive and the core may still not be thick enough to provide the
                            > strength gotten from glassing. You need some separation between the
                            > layers of glass (i.e. the plywood core), for the glass to be
                            > structurally strong.
                            >
                            > No to mention glass is heavy and not bouyant...so you want to think
                            > about this one...consider how far you have gone with the boat, and
                            > whether it might be easier to laminate another layer of 4mm ply on it.
                            > I think it certainly would be cheaper...again depending on how far.
                            >
                            > Scot
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On 6/3/12, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                            > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                            > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                            > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                            > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore
                            > > 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I would either
                            > > scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may crumple under
                            > > load.
                            > >
                            > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                            > > Old Lyme, CT
                            > > Le Claire, IA
                            > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                            > > Sent from my iPhone
                            > >
                            > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> David,
                            > >> Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                            > >> thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                            > >> with it.
                            > >> Mike
                            > >>
                            > >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
                            > >> >
                            > >> > What does JM call for in the plans?
                            > >> > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                            > >> > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                            > >> > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though
                            > >> > it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a
                            > >> > protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are
                            > >> > going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                            > >> > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                            > >> > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                            > >> > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                            > >> > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                            > >> >
                            > >> > David C
                            > >> >
                            > >> > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                            > >> >
                            > >> > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                            > >> > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I
                            > >> > > can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                            > >> > > plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                            > >> > >
                            > >> > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                            > >> > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                            > >> > > just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                            > >> > > will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                            > >> > > cloth and resin on that open area.
                            > >> > >
                            > >> > >
                            > >> >
                            > >> >
                            > >> >
                            > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >> >
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                            > Old Lyme, CT, USA
                            > Le Claire, IA, USA
                            > Scot McPherson | Linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson>
                            >
                          • Scot McPherson
                            Oh my god. I know that 1 inch = 2.54cm. I honestly have no idea where my head was. Probably exhausted from carrying and mixing 3/4 ton of concrete and posting
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Oh my god. I know that 1 inch = 2.54cm. I honestly have no idea where my head was. Probably exhausted from carrying and mixing 3/4 ton of concrete and posting while taking a breather.

                              My apologies for being moronic.

                              Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                              Old Lyme, CT
                              Le Claire, IA
                              http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:45 PM, David Calloway <david@...> wrote:

                              > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with 5mm
                              > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                              >
                              > dave
                              >
                              > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> **
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                              >>
                              >> ________________________________
                              >> From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                              >> To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                              >> Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                              >> Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                              >> touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                              >> therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I
                              >> would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may
                              >> crumple under load.
                              >>
                              >> Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                              >> Old Lyme, CT
                              >> Le Claire, IA
                              >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                              >> Sent from my iPhone
                              >>
                              >> On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> David,
                              >>> Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                              >> thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                              >> with it.
                              >>> Mike
                              >>>
                              >>> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@...> wrote:
                              >>>>
                              >>>> What does JM call for in the plans?
                              >>>> I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                              >>>> This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                              >> bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer
                              >> (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being
                              >> said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you
                              >> are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                              >> cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                              >>>>
                              >>>> Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                              >> puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                              >> simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                              >> should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                              >>>>
                              >>>> David C
                              >>>>
                              >>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                              >>>>
                              >>>>> Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                              >> getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do
                              >> the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood
                              >> underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                              >> area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just
                              >> putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get
                              >> the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and
                              >> resin on that open area.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>>
                              >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Scot McPherson
                              Mike, Look at my earlier post. I was just being a moron. Buy 5.5mm is certainly thicker than 4mm. Either way I think you are fine. Sorry for posting while high
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Mike,
                                Look at my earlier post. I was just being a moron. Buy 5.5mm is certainly thicker than 4mm. Either way I think you are fine. Sorry for posting while high on exhaustion.

                                Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                Old Lyme, CT
                                Le Claire, IA
                                http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On Jun 3, 2012, at 8:26 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > Scot
                                > . Checked manufacturer specs.it's 5.2-5.5 mm thickness.Putting fiberglass cloth on bottom and up the side panels to some extent. Thinking of fiberglassing inside open area where you sit and floor of that area.
                                >
                                > Just thought of something else in terms of structural strength of side panel at that thickness to mount Leeboard. Have to think this one out. Thanks for the feedback.
                                >
                                > Mike
                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Scot Mc Pherson <scot.mcpherson@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > yes, but depending on how far he's gotten or how easy it would be to
                                > > laminate another layer on, heavy glassing it MAY be a lot more
                                > > expensive and the core may still not be thick enough to provide the
                                > > strength gotten from glassing. You need some separation between the
                                > > layers of glass (i.e. the plywood core), for the glass to be
                                > > structurally strong.
                                > >
                                > > No to mention glass is heavy and not bouyant...so you want to think
                                > > about this one...consider how far you have gone with the boat, and
                                > > whether it might be easier to laminate another layer of 4mm ply on it.
                                > > I think it certainly would be cheaper...again depending on how far.
                                > >
                                > > Scot
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On 6/3/12, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                                > > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ________________________________
                                > > > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                                > > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                                > > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore
                                > > > 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I would either
                                > > > scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may crumple under
                                > > > load.
                                > > >
                                > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                > > > Old Lyme, CT
                                > > > Le Claire, IA
                                > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                > > > Sent from my iPhone
                                > > >
                                > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >> David,
                                > > >> Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                                > > >> thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                                > > >> with it.
                                > > >> Mike
                                > > >>
                                > > >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                > > >> > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                > > >> > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                                > > >> > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though
                                > > >> > it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a
                                > > >> > protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are
                                > > >> > going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                                > > >> > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                                > > >> > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                                > > >> > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                                > > >> > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > David C
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                                > > >> > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I
                                > > >> > > can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                                > > >> > > plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                > > >> > >
                                > > >> > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                                > > >> > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                                > > >> > > just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                                > > >> > > will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                                > > >> > > cloth and resin on that open area.
                                > > >> > >
                                > > >> > >
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> >
                                > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >> >
                                > > >>
                                > > >>
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                > > Old Lyme, CT, USA
                                > > Le Claire, IA, USA
                                > > Scot McPherson | Linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson>
                                > >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mike
                                Scot, no problem.Been there done that. I d much rather have had the discussion rather then invest the time and effort and find out the hard way that it wasn t
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Scot,
                                  no problem.Been there done that. I'd much rather have had the discussion rather then invest the time and effort and find out the hard way that it wasn't thick enough. Hope you get a chance to rest.thanks again.
                                  Regards,
                                  Mik

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mike,
                                  > Look at my earlier post. I was just being a moron. Buy 5.5mm is certainly thicker than 4mm. Either way I think you are fine. Sorry for posting while high on exhaustion.
                                  >
                                  > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                  > Old eLyme, CT
                                  > Le Claire, IA
                                  > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                  > Sent from my iPhone
                                  >
                                  > On Jun 3, 2012, at 8:26 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Scot
                                  > > . Checked manufacturer specs.it's 5.2-5.5 mm thickness.Putting fiberglass cloth on bottom and up the side panels to some extent. Thinking of fiberglassing inside open area where you sit and floor of that area.
                                  > >
                                  > > Just thought of something else in terms of structural strength of side panel at that thickness to mount Leeboard. Have to think this one out. Thanks for the feedback.
                                  > >
                                  > > Mike
                                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Scot Mc Pherson <scot.mcpherson@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > yes, but depending on how far he's gotten or how easy it would be to
                                  > > > laminate another layer on, heavy glassing it MAY be a lot more
                                  > > > expensive and the core may still not be thick enough to provide the
                                  > > > strength gotten from glassing. You need some separation between the
                                  > > > layers of glass (i.e. the plywood core), for the glass to be
                                  > > > structurally strong.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > No to mention glass is heavy and not bouyant...so you want to think
                                  > > > about this one...consider how far you have gone with the boat, and
                                  > > > whether it might be easier to laminate another layer of 4mm ply on it.
                                  > > > I think it certainly would be cheaper...again depending on how far.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Scot
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 6/3/12, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@> wrote:
                                  > > > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ________________________________
                                  > > > > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@>
                                  > > > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                  > > > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                                  > > > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5, therefore
                                  > > > > 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I would either
                                  > > > > scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may crumple under
                                  > > > > load.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                  > > > > Old Lyme, CT
                                  > > > > Le Claire, IA
                                  > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                  > > > > Sent from my iPhone
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >> David,
                                  > > > >> Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                                  > > > >> thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                                  > > > >> with it.
                                  > > > >> Mike
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                  > > > >> > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                  > > > >> > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                                  > > > >> > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer (though
                                  > > > >> > it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being said, a
                                  > > > >> > protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you are
                                  > > > >> > going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                                  > > > >> > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                                  > > > >> > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                                  > > > >> > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                                  > > > >> > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > David C
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                                  > > > >> > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I
                                  > > > >> > > can do the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                                  > > > >> > > plywood underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                  > > > >> > >
                                  > > > >> > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                                  > > > >> > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                                  > > > >> > > just putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                                  > > > >> > > will get the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                                  > > > >> > > cloth and resin on that open area.
                                  > > > >> > >
                                  > > > >> > >
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >> >
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --
                                  > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                  > > > Old Lyme, CT, USA
                                  > > > Le Claire, IA, USA
                                  > > > Scot McPherson | Linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson>
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Martin Houston
                                  Glass surly does add weight, but it also adds streangth. I tend to be hard on equipment, if it is weak I will break it. I plan to glass my AF3 inside & out. I
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Glass surly does add weight, but it also adds streangth. I tend to be hard on equipment, if it is weak I will break it. I plan to glass my AF3 inside & out. I believe It will be strong & watertight. It is big enough to handle the extra weight, it won't be that much. Extra thickness in ply would add streangth without needing extra glass & is probably the way to go. My boats tend to be heavy & strong but I don't car top them. So far none has broke.



                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Mike <rudder59@...>
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 7:17 PM
                                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram



                                     

                                    I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                                    I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on concerns that everyone has expressed.

                                    Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.

                                    Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.

                                    Mike

                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway <david@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with 5mm
                                    > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                                    >
                                    > dave
                                    >
                                    > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                    > >
                                    > > ________________________________
                                    > > From: Scot McPherson <scot.mcpherson@...>
                                    > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is just a
                                    > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                                    > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half that. I
                                    > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That boat may
                                    > > crumple under load.
                                    > >
                                    > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                    > > Old Lyme, CT
                                    > > Le Claire, IA
                                    > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                    > > Sent from my iPhone
                                    > >
                                    > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > David,
                                    > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is slightly
                                    > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a problem
                                    > > with it.
                                    > > > Mike
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                    > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                    > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem with
                                    > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any safer
                                    > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That being
                                    > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea of you
                                    > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps, etc. (6 oz.
                                    > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms. It is
                                    > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at nights,
                                    > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and you
                                    > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > David C
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health issues but
                                    > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so I can do
                                    > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply plywood
                                    > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness in the
                                    > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by just
                                    > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it will get
                                    > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass cloth and
                                    > > resin on that open area.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • prairiedog2332
                                    Great to hear the feedback on this discussion. I think it will all be very useful for perspective builders. Some added thoughts and observations; 1. I think in
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 3, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Great to hear the feedback on this discussion. I think it will all be
                                      very useful for perspective builders.

                                      Some added thoughts and observations;

                                      1. I think in a multichine hull like the piccup pram I like what Anders
                                      wrote.

                                      2. In a bigger hull like the Light Schooner I would go with thicker
                                      plywood. 3/8" MDO would be my choice.

                                      3. It would be easier to go with heavier glass on the bottom than adding
                                      another layer of plywood. Say 10 oz instead of 6?

                                      4. Glassing the interior would add strength but a lot of extra work.
                                      Thicker plywood also adds flotation but glass adds extra weight.

                                      5. On a single chine boat you already have abrasion resistance if the
                                      chine logs are on the outside which Jim Michalak seems to suggest works
                                      better than interior chine logs. But even then he suggests some tape
                                      over the chine logs.

                                      6. Mike Monies has chosen to no longer use Sureply but only Occume. But
                                      he builds boats for others on consignement from what I understand. I
                                      agree that is the better choice if one can afford it.

                                      Nels












                                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Glass surly does add weight, but it also adds streangth. I tend to be
                                      hard on equipment, if it is weak I will break it. I plan to glass my AF3
                                      inside & out. I believe It will be strong & watertight. It is big enough
                                      to handle the extra weight, it won't be that much. Extra thickness in
                                      ply would add streangth without needing extra glass & is probably the
                                      way to go. My boats tend to be heavy & strong but I don't car top them.
                                      So far none has broke.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Mike rudder59@...
                                      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 7:17 PM
                                      > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Â
                                      >
                                      > I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply
                                      underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is
                                      guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                                      > I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side
                                      panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on
                                      concerns that everyone has expressed.
                                      >
                                      > Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you
                                      sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass
                                      the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for
                                      strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.
                                      >
                                      > Mike
                                      >
                                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway david@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with
                                      5mm
                                      > > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                                      > >
                                      > > dave
                                      > >
                                      > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston mtnridr13@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > **
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ________________________________
                                      > > > From: Scot McPherson scot.mcpherson@
                                      > > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                      > > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup
                                      pram
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is
                                      just a
                                      > > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                                      > > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half
                                      that. I
                                      > > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That
                                      boat may
                                      > > > crumple under load.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                      > > > Old Lyme, CT
                                      > > > Le Claire, IA
                                      > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                      > > > Sent from my iPhone
                                      > > >
                                      > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" rudder59@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > David,
                                      > > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is
                                      slightly
                                      > > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a
                                      problem
                                      > > > with it.
                                      > > > > Mike
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                      > > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                      > > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem
                                      with
                                      > > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any
                                      safer
                                      > > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That
                                      being
                                      > > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea
                                      of you
                                      > > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps,
                                      etc. (6 oz.
                                      > > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms.
                                      It is
                                      > > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at
                                      nights,
                                      > > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and
                                      you
                                      > > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > David C
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health
                                      issues but
                                      > > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so
                                      I can do
                                      > > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                                      plywood
                                      > > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness
                                      in the
                                      > > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                                      just
                                      > > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                                      will get
                                      > > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                                      cloth and
                                      > > > resin on that open area.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > >
                                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Mike
                                      Nels, I couldn t agree more. The response and suggestions have been tremendous and provided insight into the pros and cons of different methods that I wouldn t
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 4, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Nels,
                                        I couldn't agree more. The response and suggestions have been tremendous and provided insight into the pros and cons of different methods that I wouldn't have had access to on my own.
                                        I think anders strategy for doing the cloth first then the tape is a perfect example of gaining insight from other peoples experiences.

                                        I originally went to box store for Ultraply but when I got there they had switched to carrying Sureply. Another example of why you need to follow your own internal compass and not be taken off course by someone else's agenda

                                        I appreciate all the feedback and hope I can contribute to others questions as we go along.
                                        Thanks again to everyone.

                                        Regards,
                                        Mike
                                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Great to hear the feedback on this discussion. I think it will all be
                                        > very useful for perspective builders.
                                        >
                                        > Some added thoughts and observations;
                                        >
                                        > 1. I think in a multichine hull like the piccup pram I like what Anders
                                        > wrote.
                                        >
                                        > 2. In a bigger hull like the Light Schooner I would go with thicker
                                        > plywood. 3/8" MDO would be my choice.
                                        >
                                        > 3. It would be easier to go with heavier glass on the bottom than adding
                                        > another layer of plywood. Say 10 oz instead of 6?
                                        >
                                        > 4. Glassing the interior would add strength but a lot of extra work.
                                        > Thicker plywood also adds flotation but glass adds extra weight.
                                        >
                                        > 5. On a single chine boat you already have abrasion resistance if the
                                        > chine logs are on the outside which Jim Michalak seems to suggest works
                                        > better than interior chine logs. But even then he suggests some tape
                                        > over the chine logs.
                                        >
                                        > 6. Mike Monies has chosen to no longer use Sureply but only Occume. But
                                        > he builds boats for others on consignement from what I understand. I
                                        > agree that is the better choice if one can afford it.
                                        >
                                        > Nels
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Glass surly does add weight, but it also adds streangth. I tend to be
                                        > hard on equipment, if it is weak I will break it. I plan to glass my AF3
                                        > inside & out. I believe It will be strong & watertight. It is big enough
                                        > to handle the extra weight, it won't be that much. Extra thickness in
                                        > ply would add streangth without needing extra glass & is probably the
                                        > way to go. My boats tend to be heavy & strong but I don't car top them.
                                        > So far none has broke.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ________________________________
                                        > > From: Mike rudder59@
                                        > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 7:17 PM
                                        > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Â
                                        > >
                                        > > I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply
                                        > underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is
                                        > guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                                        > > I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side
                                        > panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on
                                        > concerns that everyone has expressed.
                                        > >
                                        > > Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you
                                        > sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass
                                        > the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for
                                        > strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.
                                        > >
                                        > > Mike
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway david@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with
                                        > 5mm
                                        > > > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                                        > > >
                                        > > > dave
                                        > > >
                                        > > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston mtnridr13@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > **
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ________________________________
                                        > > > > From: Scot McPherson scot.mcpherson@
                                        > > > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                        > > > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup
                                        > pram
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is
                                        > just a
                                        > > > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                                        > > > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half
                                        > that. I
                                        > > > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That
                                        > boat may
                                        > > > > crumple under load.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                        > > > > Old Lyme, CT
                                        > > > > Le Claire, IA
                                        > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                        > > > > Sent from my iPhone
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" rudder59@ wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > David,
                                        > > > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is
                                        > slightly
                                        > > > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a
                                        > problem
                                        > > > > with it.
                                        > > > > > Mike
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                        > > > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                        > > > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem
                                        > with
                                        > > > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any
                                        > safer
                                        > > > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That
                                        > being
                                        > > > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea
                                        > of you
                                        > > > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps,
                                        > etc. (6 oz.
                                        > > > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms.
                                        > It is
                                        > > > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at
                                        > nights,
                                        > > > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and
                                        > you
                                        > > > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > David C
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health
                                        > issues but
                                        > > > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so
                                        > I can do
                                        > > > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                                        > plywood
                                        > > > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness
                                        > in the
                                        > > > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                                        > just
                                        > > > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                                        > will get
                                        > > > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                                        > cloth and
                                        > > > > resin on that open area.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • gary
                                        Mike: Got tied up and haven t been able to follow the thread for a couple days. And naturally have a couple more thoughts. -- the difference between 6 mm ply
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 5, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Mike:
                                          Got tied up and haven't been able to follow the thread for a couple days. And naturally have a couple more thoughts.
                                          -- the difference between 6 mm ply and 5.2 mm ply on a boat the size of a Piccup is immaterial. Even if you weren't planning to glass both the inside and outside bottom, it wouldn't matter. In any case, since you're planning to glass both sides of the bottom for abrasion resistance, you'll be adding several times the strength than is lost from a 0.8 mm reduction in thickness.
                                          -- Unless you're planning on cartopping the boat, I think the slight extra weight of glassing the bottom is well worth it for the reduced maintenance you'll have. Also, I don't think it's a particularly good boat to cartop, being a bit above the ideal weight and being too short to load easily (you can't put one end on the ground and lift the other to the top of the vehicle).
                                          -- If you haven't made the leeboard yet, I'd follow some advice Michalak gave a while ago and make it wider than the drawings show. My plans had a tapered board from 7 to 9 inches wide, if memory serves. I did another one adding 3 inches to the front edge, which still fits the designed upper and lower leeboard guards and the boat is much closer winded and maneuvers better.

                                          I wouldn't use Sureply as I think the stuff Mike Monies used delaminated.

                                          Gary






                                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Nels,
                                          > I couldn't agree more. The response and suggestions have been tremendous and provided insight into the pros and cons of different methods that I wouldn't have had access to on my own.
                                          > I think anders strategy for doing the cloth first then the tape is a perfect example of gaining insight from other peoples experiences.
                                          >
                                          > I originally went to box store for Ultraply but when I got there they had switched to carrying Sureply. Another example of why you need to follow your own internal compass and not be taken off course by someone else's agenda
                                          >
                                          > I appreciate all the feedback and hope I can contribute to others questions as we go along.
                                          > Thanks again to everyone.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          > Mike
                                          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Great to hear the feedback on this discussion. I think it will all be
                                          > > very useful for perspective builders.
                                          > >
                                          > > Some added thoughts and observations;
                                          > >
                                          > > 1. I think in a multichine hull like the piccup pram I like what Anders
                                          > > wrote.
                                          > >
                                          > > 2. In a bigger hull like the Light Schooner I would go with thicker
                                          > > plywood. 3/8" MDO would be my choice.
                                          > >
                                          > > 3. It would be easier to go with heavier glass on the bottom than adding
                                          > > another layer of plywood. Say 10 oz instead of 6?
                                          > >
                                          > > 4. Glassing the interior would add strength but a lot of extra work.
                                          > > Thicker plywood also adds flotation but glass adds extra weight.
                                          > >
                                          > > 5. On a single chine boat you already have abrasion resistance if the
                                          > > chine logs are on the outside which Jim Michalak seems to suggest works
                                          > > better than interior chine logs. But even then he suggests some tape
                                          > > over the chine logs.
                                          > >
                                          > > 6. Mike Monies has chosen to no longer use Sureply but only Occume. But
                                          > > he builds boats for others on consignement from what I understand. I
                                          > > agree that is the better choice if one can afford it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Nels
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Glass surly does add weight, but it also adds streangth. I tend to be
                                          > > hard on equipment, if it is weak I will break it. I plan to glass my AF3
                                          > > inside & out. I believe It will be strong & watertight. It is big enough
                                          > > to handle the extra weight, it won't be that much. Extra thickness in
                                          > > ply would add streangth without needing extra glass & is probably the
                                          > > way to go. My boats tend to be heavy & strong but I don't car top them.
                                          > > So far none has broke.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ________________________________
                                          > > > From: Mike rudder59@
                                          > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 7:17 PM
                                          > > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Â
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply
                                          > > underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is
                                          > > guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                                          > > > I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side
                                          > > panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on
                                          > > concerns that everyone has expressed.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you
                                          > > sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass
                                          > > the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for
                                          > > strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Mike
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway david@ wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with
                                          > > 5mm
                                          > > > > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > dave
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston mtnridr13@ wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > **
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > ________________________________
                                          > > > > > From: Scot McPherson scot.mcpherson@
                                          > > > > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                          > > > > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup
                                          > > pram
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is
                                          > > just a
                                          > > > > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                                          > > > > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half
                                          > > that. I
                                          > > > > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That
                                          > > boat may
                                          > > > > > crumple under load.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                          > > > > > Old Lyme, CT
                                          > > > > > Le Claire, IA
                                          > > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                          > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" rudder59@ wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > David,
                                          > > > > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is
                                          > > slightly
                                          > > > > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a
                                          > > problem
                                          > > > > > with it.
                                          > > > > > > Mike
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                          > > > > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                          > > > > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem
                                          > > with
                                          > > > > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any
                                          > > safer
                                          > > > > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That
                                          > > being
                                          > > > > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea
                                          > > of you
                                          > > > > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps,
                                          > > etc. (6 oz.
                                          > > > > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms.
                                          > > It is
                                          > > > > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at
                                          > > nights,
                                          > > > > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and
                                          > > you
                                          > > > > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > David C
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health
                                          > > issues but
                                          > > > > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so
                                          > > I can do
                                          > > > > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                                          > > plywood
                                          > > > > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness
                                          > > in the
                                          > > > > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                                          > > just
                                          > > > > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                                          > > will get
                                          > > > > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                                          > > cloth and
                                          > > > > > resin on that open area.
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Martin Houston
                                          I ve never seen Sureply but I checked out Ultraply at Menards & didn t like it. Seemed to have thick inner core & very thin veneers on either side. I know many
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 5, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I've never seen Sureply but I checked out Ultraply at Menards & didn't like it. Seemed to have thick inner core & very thin veneers on either side. I know many good boats have been built from it but I used premium ACX. 3 equal thickness layers. Strong & takes screws & glue well.



                                            ________________________________
                                            From: gary <gbship@...>
                                            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 7:05 PM
                                            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram



                                             

                                            Mike:
                                            Got tied up and haven't been able to follow the thread for a couple days. And naturally have a couple more thoughts.
                                            -- the difference between 6 mm ply and 5.2 mm ply on a boat the size of a Piccup is immaterial. Even if you weren't planning to glass both the inside and outside bottom, it wouldn't matter. In any case, since you're planning to glass both sides of the bottom for abrasion resistance, you'll be adding several times the strength than is lost from a 0.8 mm reduction in thickness.
                                            -- Unless you're planning on cartopping the boat, I think the slight extra weight of glassing the bottom is well worth it for the reduced maintenance you'll have. Also, I don't think it's a particularly good boat to cartop, being a bit above the ideal weight and being too short to load easily (you can't put one end on the ground and lift the other to the top of the vehicle).
                                            -- If you haven't made the leeboard yet, I'd follow some advice Michalak gave a while ago and make it wider than the drawings show. My plans had a tapered board from 7 to 9 inches wide, if memory serves. I did another one adding 3 inches to the front edge, which still fits the designed upper and lower leeboard guards and the boat is much closer winded and maneuvers better.

                                            I wouldn't use Sureply as I think the stuff Mike Monies used delaminated.

                                            Gary

                                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <rudder59@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Nels,
                                            > I couldn't agree more. The response and suggestions have been tremendous and provided insight into the pros and cons of different methods that I wouldn't have had access to on my own.
                                            > I think anders strategy for doing the cloth first then the tape is a perfect example of gaining insight from other peoples experiences.
                                            >
                                            > I originally went to box store for Ultraply but when I got there they had switched to carrying Sureply. Another example of why you need to follow your own internal compass and not be taken off course by someone else's agenda
                                            >
                                            > I appreciate all the feedback and hope I can contribute to others questions as we go along.
                                            > Thanks again to everyone.
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            > Mike
                                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Great to hear the feedback on this discussion. I think it will all be
                                            > > very useful for perspective builders.
                                            > >
                                            > > Some added thoughts and observations;
                                            > >
                                            > > 1. I think in a multichine hull like the piccup pram I like what Anders
                                            > > wrote.
                                            > >
                                            > > 2. In a bigger hull like the Light Schooner I would go with thicker
                                            > > plywood. 3/8" MDO would be my choice.
                                            > >
                                            > > 3. It would be easier to go with heavier glass on the bottom than adding
                                            > > another layer of plywood. Say 10 oz instead of 6?
                                            > >
                                            > > 4. Glassing the interior would add strength but a lot of extra work.
                                            > > Thicker plywood also adds flotation but glass adds extra weight.
                                            > >
                                            > > 5. On a single chine boat you already have abrasion resistance if the
                                            > > chine logs are on the outside which Jim Michalak seems to suggest works
                                            > > better than interior chine logs. But even then he suggests some tape
                                            > > over the chine logs.
                                            > >
                                            > > 6. Mike Monies has chosen to no longer use Sureply but only Occume. But
                                            > > he builds boats for others on consignement from what I understand. I
                                            > > agree that is the better choice if one can afford it.
                                            > >
                                            > > Nels
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Glass surly does add weight, but it also adds streangth. I tend to be
                                            > > hard on equipment, if it is weak I will break it. I plan to glass my AF3
                                            > > inside & out. I believe It will be strong & watertight. It is big enough
                                            > > to handle the extra weight, it won't be that much. Extra thickness in
                                            > > ply would add streangth without needing extra glass & is probably the
                                            > > way to go. My boats tend to be heavy & strong but I don't car top them.
                                            > > So far none has broke.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ________________________________
                                            > > > From: Mike rudder59@
                                            > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 7:17 PM
                                            > > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup pram
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Â
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I checked the patriot web site -maker of the Sureply - and the Sureply
                                            > > underlayment thickness is 5.2 -5.5 mm. I chose it because it is
                                            > > guaranteed not to have any voids in it, has good glue qualities etc.
                                            > > > I plan on fiberglassing the bottom up to about six inches up the side
                                            > > panels. May think about taking it all the way up the sides based on
                                            > > concerns that everyone has expressed.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Plan on fiberglassing inside portion between bulkheads A&C where you
                                            > > sit and most wear and tear will occur. Wondering if I should also glass
                                            > > the inside portion of the bottom in the front and rear compartments for
                                            > > strength or if I only need to be concerned about the open area.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Mike
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, David Calloway david@ wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > An inch is 25.4 mm, making 6mm ply a 1/4 inch. I'd feel safe with
                                            > > 5mm
                                            > > > > glassed both sides, just my 2 cents,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > dave
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Martin Houston mtnridr13@ wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > **
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Or glass the heck out of it, both sides.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > ________________________________
                                            > > > > > From: Scot McPherson scot.mcpherson@
                                            > > > > > To: "Michalak@yahoogroups.com" Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 3, 2012 5:48 PM
                                            > > > > > Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Advice on bottom thickness of piccup
                                            > > pram
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Dude, that's not slightly thinner...that's a ALOT thinner. 4mm is
                                            > > just a
                                            > > > > > touch over 1/8th inch. I inch is approximately 30mm. 30 / 4 = 7.5,
                                            > > > > > therefore 7.5 mm = approximate 1/4 inch. 4mm is just over half
                                            > > that. I
                                            > > > > > would either scratch using that, or double up on every panel. That
                                            > > boat may
                                            > > > > > crumple under load.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Scot McPherson, PMP CISSP MCSA
                                            > > > > > Old Lyme, CT
                                            > > > > > Le Claire, IA
                                            > > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/scotmcpherson
                                            > > > > > Sent from my iPhone
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 12:03 PM, "Mike" rudder59@ wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > David,
                                            > > > > > > Thank you. JM 's plans call for 1/4 " plywood . Sureply is
                                            > > slightly
                                            > > > > > thinner then that (4mm) so wanted to be sure I wasn't creating a
                                            > > problem
                                            > > > > > with it.
                                            > > > > > > Mike
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "D.G. Cassidy" <d.cassidy@>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > What does JM call for in the plans?
                                            > > > > > > > I would suggest doing whatever the plans specify.
                                            > > > > > > > This is one of JM's most popular designs; if the was a problem
                                            > > with
                                            > > > > > bottom thickness, he would have corrected the plans long ago.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Adding extra weight will not necessarily make the boat any
                                            > > safer
                                            > > > > > (though it will make it harder to get on the roof of a car). That
                                            > > being
                                            > > > > > said, a protective layer of fiberglas on the bottom is a good idea
                                            > > of you
                                            > > > > > are going to be doing a lot of beaching, using concrete ramps,
                                            > > etc. (6 oz.
                                            > > > > > cloth is sufficient for this purpose).
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Holding weight is usually not the problem with thin bottoms.
                                            > > It is
                                            > > > > > puncture resistance. If it is something that keeps you awake at
                                            > > nights,
                                            > > > > > simply do not walk around in the boat when it is out of water and
                                            > > you
                                            > > > > > should never see a problem (a good idea with any plywood boat).
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > David C
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 9:58 AM, Mike wrote:
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > Got sidetracked on my build of piccup pram by some health
                                            > > issues but
                                            > > > > > getting back on track now and should finish tie wraps of panels so
                                            > > I can do
                                            > > > > > the fillets on inside seams by next week. I've used Sureply
                                            > > plywood
                                            > > > > > underlayment (4 pr 5 mm thickness).
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > > I would appreciate any advice regarding the bottom thickness
                                            > > in the
                                            > > > > > area that you sit in. I thought about doubling up the thickness by
                                            > > just
                                            > > > > > putting in another a layer of the sure ply in that area since it
                                            > > will get
                                            > > > > > the most abuse or possibly just putting a layer of fiberglass
                                            > > cloth and
                                            > > > > > resin on that open area.
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >
                                            > >
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • prairiedog2332
                                            Martin, You have a very good point there. No matter what a plywood is called a builder should look for plies that are equal or close to it. Some marine grades
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 6, 2012
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                                              Martin,

                                              You have a very good point there. No matter what a plywood is called a
                                              builder should look for plies that are equal or close to it. Some marine
                                              grades now are not totally equal though. I think they start off all
                                              equal but when sanded the outer plies get a bit thinner.

                                              The other thing of course is the glue. If the core layer is softer than
                                              the outer layers it can lead to glue starved plies even if the glue is
                                              waterproof. This can happen with the stuff coming from China. How do you
                                              know if it's coming from China? If it looks great and costs about 1/3
                                              the price or less than marine you can be assured it's from China.

                                              If in doubt I do the dishwasher test. Run a piece through the dishwasher
                                              about 6-7 times on full cycle. What I have found with Sureply is that
                                              the outer thin plies wrinkled a bit but never delaminated. One piece
                                              wrinkled on one side and the other darker side stayed flat. So it may
                                              work when glassed. If the layers are equal in an underlayemnt - no
                                              problem with wrinkling. Luan underlayment falls apart. OK for pattern
                                              makin in boat building.

                                              Crezon MDO layers are actually equal thickness as an overlay is applied
                                              after the sanding. It is heavier though as the cores are fir or a
                                              related species. But no need to glass it unless you want abrasion
                                              resistance.

                                              http://www.greatnorthernlumber.com/crezon.htm
                                              <http://www.greatnorthernlumber.com/crezon.htm>

                                              Nels


                                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I've never seen Sureply but I checked out Ultraply at Menards & didn't
                                              like it. Seemed to have thick inner core & very thin veneers on either
                                              side. I know many good boats have been built from it but I used premium
                                              ACX. 3 equal thickness layers. Strong & takes screws & glue well.
                                              >
                                              >




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Martin Houston
                                              I  loooked at the Laun also. It was terrible. Warped, twisted & delaminating in the racks. The ACX is working well for me. Epoxy sealed & glassed of course.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jun 6, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I  loooked at the Laun also. It was terrible. Warped, twisted & delaminating in the racks. The ACX is working well for me. Epoxy sealed & glassed of course.



                                                ________________________________
                                                From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:24 AM
                                                Subject: [Michalak] Plywood?



                                                 


                                                Martin,

                                                You have a very good point there. No matter what a plywood is called a
                                                builder should look for plies that are equal or close to it. Some marine
                                                grades now are not totally equal though. I think they start off all
                                                equal but when sanded the outer plies get a bit thinner.

                                                The other thing of course is the glue. If the core layer is softer than
                                                the outer layers it can lead to glue starved plies even if the glue is
                                                waterproof. This can happen with the stuff coming from China. How do you
                                                know if it's coming from China? If it looks great and costs about 1/3
                                                the price or less than marine you can be assured it's from China.

                                                If in doubt I do the dishwasher test. Run a piece through the dishwasher
                                                about 6-7 times on full cycle. What I have found with Sureply is that
                                                the outer thin plies wrinkled a bit but never delaminated. One piece
                                                wrinkled on one side and the other darker side stayed flat. So it may
                                                work when glassed. If the layers are equal in an underlayemnt - no
                                                problem with wrinkling. Luan underlayment falls apart. OK for pattern
                                                makin in boat building.

                                                Crezon MDO layers are actually equal thickness as an overlay is applied
                                                after the sanding. It is heavier though as the cores are fir or a
                                                related species. But no need to glass it unless you want abrasion
                                                resistance.

                                                http://www.greatnorthernlumber.com/crezon.htm
                                                <http://www.greatnorthernlumber.com/crezon.htm>

                                                Nels

                                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Martin Houston <mtnridr13@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I've never seen Sureply but I checked out Ultraply at Menards & didn't
                                                like it. Seemed to have thick inner core & very thin veneers on either
                                                side. I know many good boats have been built from it but I used premium
                                                ACX. 3 equal thickness layers. Strong & takes screws & glue well.
                                                >
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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