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Re: Boat selection advice

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  • sirdarnell
    Phil Bolger s larger Whalewatcher was designed for use on the Chesapeake.
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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      Phil Bolger's larger Whalewatcher was designed for use on the Chesapeake.

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ogmiosthree" <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
      >
      > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.
      >
    • Chris
      Of the boats you mentioned I think that Caroline is by far the best choice because of its sharp entry and multi chine hull. I have sailed extensively on Lake
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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        Of the boats you mentioned I think that Caroline is by far the best choice because of its sharp entry and multi chine hull.

        I have sailed extensively on Lake Erie and one season on Lake Michigan. Conditions that will overwhelm any of these boats are common. You will have to choose your days carefully. Another thing to consider if you will be sailing in the Port Clinton, Bass Islands area of Lake Erie. The boat traffic there can be quite intense. This leads to surprisingly rough conditions due to boat wakes.

        Chris

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ogmiosthree" <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
        >
        > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.
        >
      • Brian Fitzgerald
        Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be more suited for these areas? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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          Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be more suited for these areas?

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • prairiedog2332
          There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher house and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded with a larger cabin
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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            There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher house
            and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded with
            a larger cabin as well.

            I think Caroline would work and I would also take a look at Jim's
            Caprice if you want something larger. One was built with a raised solid
            shelter added. Photos over at the DW forum. It is called "Spirit of
            Aiden".

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?mo\
            de=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?m\
            ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>

            Located in New Brunswick Canada.

            Nels


            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be
            more suited for these areas?
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • joe_mapango
            WOW, how did I miss that. What a cool looking boat! At one point I was thinking about building a Caprice with a doghouse. Someone beat me to it! Do you
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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              WOW, how did I miss that. What a cool looking boat! At one point I was thinking about building a Caprice with a doghouse. Someone beat me to it! Do you know when she was launched Nels?

              Chris Curtis
              s/v Romany
              curtisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher house
              > and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded with
              > a larger cabin as well.
              >
              > I think Caroline would work and I would also take a look at Jim's
              > Caprice if you want something larger. One was built with a raised solid
              > shelter added. Photos over at the DW forum. It is called "Spirit of
              > Aiden".
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?mo\
              > de=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?m\
              > ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>
              >
              > Located in New Brunswick Canada.
              >
              > Nels
              >
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be
              > more suited for these areas?
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • prairiedog2332
              Chris According to the photo album it was launched June, 2010. You can get a lot of info if you search Spirit of Aiden at the DW forum. There was quite a
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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                Chris

                According to the photo album it was launched June, 2010.

                You can get a lot of info if you search Spirit of Aiden at the DW forum.
                There was quite a thread going for awhile. Joeseph Murray is a website
                designer, writer and expert boat builder.

                Right now he is sailing down in the Keyes I think on a larger boat and
                Spirit of Aiden is on the hard back in Fredericton, New Brunswick. He is
                on FB as well.

                Nels


                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango"
                <ccurtis-keyword-crusing.65bae6@...> wrote:
                >
                > WOW, how did I miss that. What a cool looking boat! At one point I was
                thinking about building a Caprice with a doghouse. Someone beat me to
                it! Do you know when she was launched Nels?
                >
                > Chris Curtis
                > s/v Romany
                > curtisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher
                house
                > > and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded
                with
                > > a larger cabin as well.
                > >
                > > I think Caroline would work and I would also take a look at Jim's
                > > Caprice if you want something larger. One was built with a raised
                solid
                > > shelter added. Photos over at the DW forum. It is called "Spirit of
                > > Aiden".
                > >
                > >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?mo\
                \
                > > de=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
                > >
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?m\
                \
                > > ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>
                > >
                > > Located in New Brunswick Canada.
                > >
                > > Nels
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would
                be
                > > more suited for these areas?
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • JeffreyM
                I think of JM s boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed bulkheads. My big boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8 and
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                  I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8" and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply, built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers, mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat, relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block Island Sound.)

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC.  Keep in mid all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats.  You can boldly go beyond the capabilities of these little boats quickly.  How's the line from that Edmond Fitzgerald song go?  "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                  > Just sayin'
                  > John Boy
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@...>
                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                  > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                  >
                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say Lake Erie).  Do you plan to cruise?  Day sail? Race?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                  > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                  > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • John and Kathy Trussell
                  If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts which are
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                    Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                    which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                    boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                    nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                    than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                    designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)



                    JohnT



                    _____

                    From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of JeffreyM
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice





                    I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                    bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                    and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                    feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                    built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                    mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                    relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                    Island Sound.)

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                    Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                    all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                    capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                    Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                    > Just sayin'
                    > John Boy
                    > Â
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@...>
                    > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                    > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                    >
                    >
                    > Â
                    > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                    sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                    Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                    Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                    - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                    Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                    > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                    > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ÂÂ
                    > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                    Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                    the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                    design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                    water sailing.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Brian Fitzgerald
                    Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim s Caroline is well suited for
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                      Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                      other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?



                      ________________________________
                      From: John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                      Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice


                       
                      If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                      Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                      which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                      boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                      nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                      than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                      designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)

                      JohnT

                      _____

                      From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of JeffreyM
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice

                      I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                      bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                      and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                      feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                      built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                      mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                      relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                      Island Sound.)

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                      Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                      all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                      capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                      Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                      > Just sayin'
                      > John Boy
                      > Â
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@...>
                      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                      > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                      >
                      >
                      > Â
                      > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                      sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                      Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                      Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                      - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                      Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                      > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                      > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ÂÂ
                      > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                      Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                      the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                      design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                      water sailing.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • prairiedog2332
                      There are three main reasons I see for building boats a bit heavier as Jim draws them. 1. As John mentions, the boxed in bulkheads (and covered decks) provide
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                        There are three main reasons I see for building boats a bit heavier as
                        Jim draws them.

                        1. As John mentions, the boxed in bulkheads (and covered decks) provide
                        flotation fore and aft, as well as dry storage for light and valuable
                        equipment.

                        2. The heavy bottom provides extra stiffness combined with ballast down
                        low without taking up interior space while keeping the shallow draft.

                        3. The 1/4" plywood just "ain't the way it used to be" - say 20 years
                        ago- when this "instant build" method first came into being. Most of it
                        is crap these days. Better to go with 5 plies instead of 3. That way you
                        get more waterproof glue lines. And it's a good idea to glass the bottom
                        to better protect the poorer plywoods.

                        Nels


                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                        <jtrussell2@...> wrote
                        >
                        > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many
                        of
                        > Jim's and B&B's) you will notice that they feature fore and
                        aft thwarts
                        > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of
                        the
                        > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to
                        say
                        > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot
                        stronger
                        > than their ¼" planking might suggest. (That is not to say that
                        they are
                        > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and `summer
                        weather'.)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > JohnT
                      • Patrick
                        Hey Brian, I have 600 hrs in a hartley 18 boat, And I have 118 hrs in a Michalak FatCat so far. The FatCat has about another 40 hrs to complete. $1521.oo in
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hey Brian, I have 600 hrs in a hartley 18 boat, And I have 118 hrs in a Michalak FatCat so far. The FatCat has about another 40 hrs to complete. $1521.oo in the FatCat includes duckworks rigging and Polysail international sail custom made.
                          maybe helps your thought process.
                          Patrick


                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                          Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                          > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                        • prairiedog2332
                          Hi Brian, For information on Caroline go to the home page here and enter Caroline in the search box. Lot s of info. You might also consider contacting the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                            Hi Brian,

                            For information on Caroline go to the home page here and enter
                            "Caroline" in the search box. Lot's of info. You might also consider
                            contacting the woman who commissioned the design, Caroline Gould.

                            You can also go to DW and search "Caroline" for a couple of build
                            articles as well as get some cost estimates for sails, lines, hardware,
                            epoxy etc. I also highly suggest getting Jim's build book. It is
                            extremely well worth having.

                            Here in Canada I would be looking at between 3 and 4 thousand to build
                            one, maybe more and likely 6 months. Plywood and plexiglass alone close
                            to $1000. Then you have all the framing, wales, and spars etc., lumber.

                            A decent trailer, even 2nd hand is close to $1000 as is a reliable
                            motor. I think Caroline would need a 4 HP and if going out on the
                            Chessie would consider it more important than sails. But that is just
                            me. One member is planning to take his up the inside passage to Alaska
                            in 2013, you might want to contact him as to his plans?

                            One suggestion is to decide beforehand what level of quality you desire
                            in the finished product. Disposable, work boat or gold plater. Then
                            follow that all the way through. It starts with the plywood and solid
                            lumber and how well it is held together and then on up to the final
                            finish. One can scrimp on the final finish but I don`t think it is a
                            good idea for the initial start. Some folks get that reversed.

                            Also if you go to youtube and search Bolger Long Micro` there are some
                            videos of sailing on Lakes Erie and Huron that will give you some idea.
                            And of course Rene Vidmer has some write-ups of his journey through
                            there.

                            What parts of the Chesapeake you plan to sail in is also a factor, but
                            in general terms I would think it and the Great Lakes a somewhat similar
                            although there are no tides on the Great Lakes.

                            Nels


                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks everyone for the thoughts. Based on my experience in The
                            Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's
                            Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do. I believe she
                            will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing,
                            staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and
                            only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the
                            Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of
                            the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the InnerÂ
                            Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any
                            thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be
                            suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I
                            am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in
                            the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone;
                            however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the
                            week to work on her, full time every
                            > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction
                            experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: John and Kathy Trussell jtrussell2@...
                            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                            >
                            >
                            > Â
                            > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many
                            of
                            > Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore
                            and aft thwarts
                            > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of
                            the
                            > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to
                            say
                            > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot
                            stronger
                            > than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that
                            they are
                            > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer
                            weather’.)
                            >
                            > JohnT
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf
                            > Of JeffreyM
                            > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                            >
                            > I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and
                            framed
                            > bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a
                            3/8"
                            > and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue,
                            and
                            > feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom,
                            curved ply,
                            > built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except
                            stringers,
                            > mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                            > relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                            > Island Sound.)
                            >
                            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                            John
                            > Boy t1ro2003@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â
                            Keep in mid
                            > all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go
                            beyond the
                            > capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from
                            that
                            > Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call
                            Getyourgonads."
                            > > Just sayin'
                            > > John Boy
                            > > Â
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: ogmiosthree ogmiosthree@
                            > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                            > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Â
                            > > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                            > sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                            > >
                            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                            ,
                            > Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which
                            of the
                            > Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake
                            Michigan
                            > - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different
                            than, say
                            > Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day
                            sail? Race?
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ________________________________
                            > > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                            > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                            > > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ÂÂ
                            > > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                            > Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models
                            like
                            > the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities:
                            simple
                            > design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional
                            exposed
                            > water sailing.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • JeffreyM
                            All I know about Lake Michigan I learned by poring over Google Earth images a few years ago when I knew I d be in the Chicago area with Core Sound 20 in tow.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              All I know about Lake Michigan I learned by poring over Google Earth images a few years ago when I knew I'd be in the Chicago area with Core Sound 20 in tow. After realizing the size of that inland ocean and following mile after mile of shoreline without so much as a sand bar to shelter behind, I gave up the idea. (Did sail a couple days in Lake Pepin, though.) On the other hand, Green Bay looks like quite a reasonable place to explore. Any small boat sailors on the forum with Lake Michigan experience in these areas?

                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                              > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                              > Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                              > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                              > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                              > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                              > than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                              > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)
                              >
                              > JohnT
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              > Of JeffreyM
                              > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                              >
                              > I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                              > bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                              > and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                              > feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                              > built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                              > mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                              > relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                              > Island Sound.)
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                              > Boy <t1ro2003@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                              > all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                              > capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                              > Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                              > > Just sayin'
                              > > John Boy
                              > > Â
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                              > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                              > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Â
                              > > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                              > sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                              > >
                              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              > Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                              > Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                              > - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                              > Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ________________________________
                              > > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                              > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                              > > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ÂÂ
                              > > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                              > Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                              > the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                              > design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                              > water sailing.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Joseph Stromski
                              It s all about the weather on the Great Lakes. I ve had my Af4 out (barely) from behind the breakwater in Milwaukee s harbor, and had it in Green Bay up in
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                It's all about the weather on the Great Lakes. I've had my Af4 out (barely) from behind the breakwater in Milwaukee's harbor, and had it in Green Bay up in Door County, but both occasions were extremely dependent upon the weather. The Great Lakes in general can be just as fierce as any ocean.....lots of shipwrecks can attest to that.

                                Best,
                                Joe


                                ________________________________
                                From: JeffreyM <JMichalsbr@...>
                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 10:34 AM
                                Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice


                                 
                                All I know about Lake Michigan I learned by poring over Google Earth images a few years ago when I knew I'd be in the Chicago area with Core Sound 20 in tow. After realizing the size of that inland ocean and following mile after mile of shoreline without so much as a sand bar to shelter behind, I gave up the idea. (Did sail a couple days in Lake Pepin, though.) On the other hand, Green Bay looks like quite a reasonable place to explore. Any small boat sailors on the forum with Lake Michigan experience in these areas?

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                                > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                                > Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                                > Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                                > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                                > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                                > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                                > than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                                > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)
                                >
                                > JohnT
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                > Of JeffreyM
                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                >
                                > I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                                > bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                                > and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                                > feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                                > built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                                > mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                                > relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                                > Island Sound.)
                                >
                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                                > Boy <t1ro2003@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                                > all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                                > capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                                > Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                                > > Just sayin'
                                > > John Boy
                                > > Â
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                                > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                                > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Â
                                > > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                                > sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                                > >
                                > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                > Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                                > Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                                > - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                                > Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ________________________________
                                > > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                                > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                                > > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ÂÂ
                                > > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                                > Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                                > the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                                > design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                                > water sailing.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • graeme
                                I recall The Shallow water sailors site has a number of stories of cruising on those waters. As I recall, Norm of the Norm s Boat had that one designed for
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 11, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I recall The Shallow water sailors site has a number of stories of cruising on those waters. As I recall, Norm of the Norm's Boat had that one designed for cruising in company on Shallow Water Sailors cruises. I recall a few articles at the SWS site about Bolger Dovekies and Shearwaters cruising.. (glass production boats). I remeber especially about them cruising amongst the islands.

                                  Bill King built a Bolger Long Micro and has sailed now for some years on those great lakes, including in some rough stuff. He is very very pleased with the performance and other attributes of that Bolger design. It does seem well suited to those waters. It's not a Birdwatcher walk through accomodations type though. There is Jochem's Schooner about as long as Whalewatcher but overall a larger, roomier boat - quite seaworthy. (On length overall, Whalewatcher is barely a nose longer than the Bolger Birdwather originals...) No doubt there are others suitable...

                                  Graeme

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be more suited for these areas?
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