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RE: [Michalak] Boat selection advice

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  • John and Kathy Trussell
    I have no experience with the Great Lakes, but Chesapeake Bay often has a short, steep chop. I think that of the boats you listed, Caroline is best able to
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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      I have no experience with the Great Lakes, but Chesapeake Bay often has a
      short, steep chop. I think that of the boats you listed, Caroline is best
      able to deal with these conditions. Caroline features Jim's 'through the
      water' bow design and this shape has been extensively tested on Frolic (one
      of which is currently competing in its seventh EC Challenge). A pram bow
      maximizes volume in the shortest possible length, but the bow transom can
      hit a wave and slow the boat with a lot of spray. Plumb bows look good and
      maximize water line length, but Jim's plumb bowed designs are 'over the
      water' designs and can pound. Caroline would be my choice.



      You should note that even seaworthy small boats are still small, can be
      overwhelmed by weather, and should be used with caution on large bodies of
      water. Be careful and have fun.



      JohnT



      _____

      From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of ogmiosthree
      Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 6:47 PM
      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice





      Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake
      and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram
      pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep
      two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sirdarnell
      Phil Bolger s larger Whalewatcher was designed for use on the Chesapeake.
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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        Phil Bolger's larger Whalewatcher was designed for use on the Chesapeake.

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ogmiosthree" <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
        >
        > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.
        >
      • Chris
        Of the boats you mentioned I think that Caroline is by far the best choice because of its sharp entry and multi chine hull. I have sailed extensively on Lake
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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          Of the boats you mentioned I think that Caroline is by far the best choice because of its sharp entry and multi chine hull.

          I have sailed extensively on Lake Erie and one season on Lake Michigan. Conditions that will overwhelm any of these boats are common. You will have to choose your days carefully. Another thing to consider if you will be sailing in the Port Clinton, Bass Islands area of Lake Erie. The boat traffic there can be quite intense. This leads to surprisingly rough conditions due to boat wakes.

          Chris

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "ogmiosthree" <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
          >
          > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.
          >
        • Brian Fitzgerald
          Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be more suited for these areas? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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            Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be more suited for these areas?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • prairiedog2332
            There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher house and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded with a larger cabin
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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              There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher house
              and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded with
              a larger cabin as well.

              I think Caroline would work and I would also take a look at Jim's
              Caprice if you want something larger. One was built with a raised solid
              shelter added. Photos over at the DW forum. It is called "Spirit of
              Aiden".

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?mo\
              de=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
              <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?m\
              ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>

              Located in New Brunswick Canada.

              Nels


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be
              more suited for these areas?
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • joe_mapango
              WOW, how did I miss that. What a cool looking boat! At one point I was thinking about building a Caprice with a doghouse. Someone beat me to it! Do you
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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                WOW, how did I miss that. What a cool looking boat! At one point I was thinking about building a Caprice with a doghouse. Someone beat me to it! Do you know when she was launched Nels?

                Chris Curtis
                s/v Romany
                curtisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher house
                > and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded with
                > a larger cabin as well.
                >
                > I think Caroline would work and I would also take a look at Jim's
                > Caprice if you want something larger. One was built with a raised solid
                > shelter added. Photos over at the DW forum. It is called "Spirit of
                > Aiden".
                >
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?mo\
                > de=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?m\
                > ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>
                >
                > Located in New Brunswick Canada.
                >
                > Nels
                >
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be
                > more suited for these areas?
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • prairiedog2332
                Chris According to the photo album it was launched June, 2010. You can get a lot of info if you search Spirit of Aiden at the DW forum. There was quite a
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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                  Chris

                  According to the photo album it was launched June, 2010.

                  You can get a lot of info if you search Spirit of Aiden at the DW forum.
                  There was quite a thread going for awhile. Joeseph Murray is a website
                  designer, writer and expert boat builder.

                  Right now he is sailing down in the Keyes I think on a larger boat and
                  Spirit of Aiden is on the hard back in Fredericton, New Brunswick. He is
                  on FB as well.

                  Nels


                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "joe_mapango"
                  <ccurtis-keyword-crusing.65bae6@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > WOW, how did I miss that. What a cool looking boat! At one point I was
                  thinking about building a Caprice with a doghouse. Someone beat me to
                  it! Do you know when she was launched Nels?
                  >
                  > Chris Curtis
                  > s/v Romany
                  > curtisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com
                  >
                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > There is a version of the Bolger Chebacco that has a Birdwatcher
                  house
                  > > and is said to be quite seaworthy. And his Martha Jane was upgraded
                  with
                  > > a larger cabin as well.
                  > >
                  > > I think Caroline would work and I would also take a look at Jim's
                  > > Caprice if you want something larger. One was built with a raised
                  solid
                  > > shelter added. Photos over at the DW forum. It is called "Spirit of
                  > > Aiden".
                  > >
                  > >
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?mo\
                  \
                  > > de=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dwforum/photos/album/756503025/pic/list?m\
                  \
                  > > ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc>
                  > >
                  > > Located in New Brunswick Canada.
                  > >
                  > > Nels
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would
                  be
                  > > more suited for these areas?
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • JeffreyM
                  I think of JM s boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed bulkheads. My big boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8 and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                    I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8" and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply, built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers, mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat, relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block Island Sound.)

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC.  Keep in mid all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats.  You can boldly go beyond the capabilities of these little boats quickly.  How's the line from that Edmond Fitzgerald song go?  "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                    > Just sayin'
                    > John Boy
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@...>
                    > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                    > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say Lake Erie).  Do you plan to cruise?  Day sail? Race?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                    > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                    > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed water sailing.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • John and Kathy Trussell
                    If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts which are
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                      Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                      which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                      boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                      nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                      than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                      designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)



                      JohnT



                      _____

                      From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of JeffreyM
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice





                      I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                      bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                      and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                      feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                      built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                      mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                      relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                      Island Sound.)

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                      Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                      all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                      capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                      Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                      > Just sayin'
                      > John Boy
                      > Â
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@...>
                      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                      > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                      >
                      >
                      > Â
                      > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                      sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                      Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                      Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                      - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                      Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                      > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                      > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ÂÂ
                      > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                      Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                      the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                      design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                      water sailing.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Brian Fitzgerald
                      Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim s Caroline is well suited for
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                        Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                        other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?



                        ________________________________
                        From: John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                        Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice


                         
                        If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                        Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                        which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                        boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                        nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                        than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                        designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)

                        JohnT

                        _____

                        From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of JeffreyM
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice

                        I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                        bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                        and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                        feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                        built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                        mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                        relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                        Island Sound.)

                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                        Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                        all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                        capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                        Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                        > Just sayin'
                        > John Boy
                        > Â
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@...>
                        > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                        > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                        >
                        >
                        > Â
                        > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                        sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                        >
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                        Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                        Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                        - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                        Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                        > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                        > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ÂÂ
                        > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                        Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                        the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                        design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                        water sailing.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • prairiedog2332
                        There are three main reasons I see for building boats a bit heavier as Jim draws them. 1. As John mentions, the boxed in bulkheads (and covered decks) provide
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                          There are three main reasons I see for building boats a bit heavier as
                          Jim draws them.

                          1. As John mentions, the boxed in bulkheads (and covered decks) provide
                          flotation fore and aft, as well as dry storage for light and valuable
                          equipment.

                          2. The heavy bottom provides extra stiffness combined with ballast down
                          low without taking up interior space while keeping the shallow draft.

                          3. The 1/4" plywood just "ain't the way it used to be" - say 20 years
                          ago- when this "instant build" method first came into being. Most of it
                          is crap these days. Better to go with 5 plies instead of 3. That way you
                          get more waterproof glue lines. And it's a good idea to glass the bottom
                          to better protect the poorer plywoods.

                          Nels


                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                          <jtrussell2@...> wrote
                          >
                          > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many
                          of
                          > Jim's and B&B's) you will notice that they feature fore and
                          aft thwarts
                          > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of
                          the
                          > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to
                          say
                          > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot
                          stronger
                          > than their ¼" planking might suggest. (That is not to say that
                          they are
                          > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and `summer
                          weather'.)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > JohnT
                        • Patrick
                          Hey Brian, I have 600 hrs in a hartley 18 boat, And I have 118 hrs in a Michalak FatCat so far. The FatCat has about another 40 hrs to complete. $1521.oo in
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hey Brian, I have 600 hrs in a hartley 18 boat, And I have 118 hrs in a Michalak FatCat so far. The FatCat has about another 40 hrs to complete. $1521.oo in the FatCat includes duckworks rigging and Polysail international sail custom made.
                            maybe helps your thought process.
                            Patrick


                            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                            Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                            > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                          • prairiedog2332
                            Hi Brian, For information on Caroline go to the home page here and enter Caroline in the search box. Lot s of info. You might also consider contacting the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                              Hi Brian,

                              For information on Caroline go to the home page here and enter
                              "Caroline" in the search box. Lot's of info. You might also consider
                              contacting the woman who commissioned the design, Caroline Gould.

                              You can also go to DW and search "Caroline" for a couple of build
                              articles as well as get some cost estimates for sails, lines, hardware,
                              epoxy etc. I also highly suggest getting Jim's build book. It is
                              extremely well worth having.

                              Here in Canada I would be looking at between 3 and 4 thousand to build
                              one, maybe more and likely 6 months. Plywood and plexiglass alone close
                              to $1000. Then you have all the framing, wales, and spars etc., lumber.

                              A decent trailer, even 2nd hand is close to $1000 as is a reliable
                              motor. I think Caroline would need a 4 HP and if going out on the
                              Chessie would consider it more important than sails. But that is just
                              me. One member is planning to take his up the inside passage to Alaska
                              in 2013, you might want to contact him as to his plans?

                              One suggestion is to decide beforehand what level of quality you desire
                              in the finished product. Disposable, work boat or gold plater. Then
                              follow that all the way through. It starts with the plywood and solid
                              lumber and how well it is held together and then on up to the final
                              finish. One can scrimp on the final finish but I don`t think it is a
                              good idea for the initial start. Some folks get that reversed.

                              Also if you go to youtube and search Bolger Long Micro` there are some
                              videos of sailing on Lakes Erie and Huron that will give you some idea.
                              And of course Rene Vidmer has some write-ups of his journey through
                              there.

                              What parts of the Chesapeake you plan to sail in is also a factor, but
                              in general terms I would think it and the Great Lakes a somewhat similar
                              although there are no tides on the Great Lakes.

                              Nels


                              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks everyone for the thoughts. Based on my experience in The
                              Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's
                              Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do. I believe she
                              will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing,
                              staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and
                              only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the
                              Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of
                              the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the InnerÂ
                              Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any
                              thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be
                              suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I
                              am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in
                              the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone;
                              however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the
                              week to work on her, full time every
                              > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction
                              experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > From: John and Kathy Trussell jtrussell2@...
                              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                              >
                              >
                              > Â
                              > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many
                              of
                              > Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore
                              and aft thwarts
                              > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of
                              the
                              > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to
                              say
                              > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot
                              stronger
                              > than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that
                              they are
                              > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer
                              weather’.)
                              >
                              > JohnT
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf
                              > Of JeffreyM
                              > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                              >
                              > I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and
                              framed
                              > bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a
                              3/8"
                              > and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue,
                              and
                              > feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom,
                              curved ply,
                              > built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except
                              stringers,
                              > mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                              > relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                              > Island Sound.)
                              >
                              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              John
                              > Boy t1ro2003@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â
                              Keep in mid
                              > all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go
                              beyond the
                              > capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from
                              that
                              > Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call
                              Getyourgonads."
                              > > Just sayin'
                              > > John Boy
                              > > Â
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > > From: ogmiosthree ogmiosthree@
                              > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                              > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Â
                              > > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                              > sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                              > >
                              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                              ,
                              > Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which
                              of the
                              > Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake
                              Michigan
                              > - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different
                              than, say
                              > Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day
                              sail? Race?
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ________________________________
                              > > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                              > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                              > > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > ÂÂ
                              > > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                              > Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models
                              like
                              > the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities:
                              simple
                              > design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional
                              exposed
                              > water sailing.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • JeffreyM
                              All I know about Lake Michigan I learned by poring over Google Earth images a few years ago when I knew I d be in the Chicago area with Core Sound 20 in tow.
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                All I know about Lake Michigan I learned by poring over Google Earth images a few years ago when I knew I'd be in the Chicago area with Core Sound 20 in tow. After realizing the size of that inland ocean and following mile after mile of shoreline without so much as a sand bar to shelter behind, I gave up the idea. (Did sail a couple days in Lake Pepin, though.) On the other hand, Green Bay looks like quite a reasonable place to explore. Any small boat sailors on the forum with Lake Michigan experience in these areas?

                                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                                > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                                > Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                                > Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                                > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                                > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                                > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                                > than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                                > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)
                                >
                                > JohnT
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                > Of JeffreyM
                                > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                                > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                >
                                > I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                                > bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                                > and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                                > feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                                > built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                                > mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                                > relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                                > Island Sound.)
                                >
                                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                                > Boy <t1ro2003@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                                > all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                                > capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                                > Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                                > > Just sayin'
                                > > John Boy
                                > > Â
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ________________________________
                                > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                                > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                                > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Â
                                > > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                                > sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                                > >
                                > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                > Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                                > Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                                > - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                                > Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ________________________________
                                > > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                                > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                                > > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ÂÂ
                                > > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                                > Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                                > the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                                > design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                                > water sailing.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Joseph Stromski
                                It s all about the weather on the Great Lakes. I ve had my Af4 out (barely) from behind the breakwater in Milwaukee s harbor, and had it in Green Bay up in
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  It's all about the weather on the Great Lakes. I've had my Af4 out (barely) from behind the breakwater in Milwaukee's harbor, and had it in Green Bay up in Door County, but both occasions were extremely dependent upon the weather. The Great Lakes in general can be just as fierce as any ocean.....lots of shipwrecks can attest to that.

                                  Best,
                                  Joe


                                  ________________________________
                                  From: JeffreyM <JMichalsbr@...>
                                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 10:34 AM
                                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice


                                   
                                  All I know about Lake Michigan I learned by poring over Google Earth images a few years ago when I knew I'd be in the Chicago area with Core Sound 20 in tow. After realizing the size of that inland ocean and following mile after mile of shoreline without so much as a sand bar to shelter behind, I gave up the idea. (Did sail a couple days in Lake Pepin, though.) On the other hand, Green Bay looks like quite a reasonable place to explore. Any small boat sailors on the forum with Lake Michigan experience in these areas?

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks everyone for the thoughts.  Based on my experience in The Chesapeake and the thoughts you shared, I have decided that Jim's Caroline is well suited for what I am looking to do.  I believe she will function well as a multi-day camper and is capable of gunkholing, staying primarily close to shore with limited runs across the bay and only if favorable weather is expected. I am rather ignorant of the Great Lakes, but have begun to fantasize about hoping about some of the islands in the north of Lake Michigan, the Inner Channel of Huron, and a possible trip to Pelee in Erie.  Any thoughts on these areas of the Lakes and if Caroline would be suitable in favorable conditions would be appreciated. Also, I am ordering the plans this weekend and will begin construction in the next week. I know this is difficult and varies for everyone; however, considering that I have at least 3 hours a day during the week to work on her, full time every
                                  > other weekend, have moderate carpentry skills and no boat construction experience, any predictions on when I could get her in the water?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  > From: John and Kathy Trussell <jtrussell2@...>
                                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:09 AM
                                  > Subject: RE: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  > If you analyze the structure of a lot of small boats (including many of
                                  > Jim’s and B&B’s) you will notice that they feature fore and aft thwarts
                                  > which are boxed in between the top of the thwarts and the bottom of the
                                  > boat. These two box girders add tremendous strength and stiffness (to say
                                  > nothing of flotation) to the boat. As a result, the boats are a lot stronger
                                  > than their ¼” planking might suggest. (That is not to say that they are
                                  > designed for anything other than sheltered waters and ‘summer weather’.)
                                  >
                                  > JohnT
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  > Of JeffreyM
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 8:01 AM
                                  > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                  >
                                  > I think of JM's boats as fairly heavy--favoring thick ply bottoms and framed
                                  > bulkheads. My "big" boat is a Core Sound 20 (B&B Yacht Designs) with a 3/8"
                                  > and 1/4" bottom, and 1/4" ply everywhere else. It's stitch and glue, and
                                  > feels solid. Of course, much of the rigidity is in the v-bottom, curved ply,
                                  > built-in benches, decks, etc. Almost no framing lumber except stringers,
                                  > mast partner, and under decks and seats. That's my "big water" boat,
                                  > relatively speaking. (My idea of big water is Nantucket Sound or Block
                                  > Island Sound.)
                                  >
                                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , John
                                  > Boy <t1ro2003@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Frolic2- Gary Blankenship is in the middle of his 7th EC. Â Keep in mid
                                  > all of Jim's designs are lightweight boats. Â You can boldly go beyond the
                                  > capabilities of these little boats quickly. Â How's the line from that
                                  > Edmond Fitzgerald song go? Â "The big lake they call Getyourgonads."
                                  > > Just sayin'
                                  > > John Boy
                                  > > Â
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ________________________________
                                  > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                                  > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 6:28 AM
                                  > > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Boat selection advice
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Â
                                  > > Im interested in Lake Erie, Northern Michigan and Huron. I plan to
                                  > sail/cruise for several days up to a week.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                  > Thomas Hamernik <onevenkeel@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I think it depends a lot on what you want to accomplish and which of the
                                  > Great Lakes you plan to sail (I do most of my sailing on lower Lake Michigan
                                  > - a very deep, exposed lake which huge waves at times - different than, say
                                  > Lake Erie). Do you plan to cruise? Day sail? Race?
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ________________________________
                                  > > > From: ogmiosthree <ogmiosthree@>
                                  > > > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 5:46 PM
                                  > > > Subject: [Michalak] Boat selection advice
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ÂÂ
                                  > > > Can anyone help suggest a boat design appropriate for use on the
                                  > Chesapeake and Great Lakes? I am set on the birdwatcher cabin models like
                                  > the scram pram, philsboat, and caroline. Other design priorities: simple
                                  > design, sleep two adults and child in cabin, capable of occasional exposed
                                  > water sailing.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • graeme
                                  I recall The Shallow water sailors site has a number of stories of cruising on those waters. As I recall, Norm of the Norm s Boat had that one designed for
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 11, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I recall The Shallow water sailors site has a number of stories of cruising on those waters. As I recall, Norm of the Norm's Boat had that one designed for cruising in company on Shallow Water Sailors cruises. I recall a few articles at the SWS site about Bolger Dovekies and Shearwaters cruising.. (glass production boats). I remeber especially about them cruising amongst the islands.

                                    Bill King built a Bolger Long Micro and has sailed now for some years on those great lakes, including in some rough stuff. He is very very pleased with the performance and other attributes of that Bolger design. It does seem well suited to those waters. It's not a Birdwatcher walk through accomodations type though. There is Jochem's Schooner about as long as Whalewatcher but overall a larger, roomier boat - quite seaworthy. (On length overall, Whalewatcher is barely a nose longer than the Bolger Birdwather originals...) No doubt there are others suitable...

                                    Graeme

                                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fitzgerald <ogmiosthree@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Are there any Bolger designs besides the whalewatcher that would be more suited for these areas?
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