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Re: [Michalak] Re: Sandeply

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  • Mark Albanese
    ... Just not very much of it...
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1 4:27 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      e:
      > There are products out there that are high quality floor
      > underlayments such as "Sureply". Aledgedly these underlayments have
      > a waterproof glue holding the plys together.
      >
      >
      Just not very much of it...
    • chrispychrispy2000
      Yep..agreed. As long as someone realized it was not the perfect material to build a boat out of it is the least a good budget minded alternative. Smooth face
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1 7:22 AM
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        Yep..agreed. As long as someone realized it was not the perfect material to build a boat out of it is the least a good budget minded alternative. Smooth face on both sides and a reasonable amount of stability. comparable in price to a BCX plywood. Probably the BCX is more stable but uglier and with voids to deal with. Of course the voids are not so good structurally either.

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
        >
        > e:
        > > There are products out there that are high quality floor
        > > underlayments such as "Sureply". Aledgedly these underlayments have
        > > a waterproof glue holding the plys together.
        > >
        > >
        > Just not very much of it...
        >
      • Mark Albanese
        Of the less expensive panels, I m still in favor of the Arauco plantation grown Chilean pine ACX. It s pretty well made, even plies, no voids, decent glue
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1 4:02 PM
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          Of the less expensive panels, I'm still in favor of the "Arauco"
          plantation grown Chilean pine ACX. It's pretty well made, even plies,
          no voids, decent glue lines, good surfaces. It's flaws are poor decay
          resistance, which is fairly easy to deal with a coat of antifreeze,
          and off the rack a sometime tendency to curl, so you have to pick
          your sheets.

          If there are any real lumber yards left in the neighborhood, worth a
          look.



          On Feb 1, 2012, at 7:22 AM, chrispychrispy2000 wrote:

          > Yep..agreed. As long as someone realized it was not the perfect
          > material to build a boat out of it is the least a good budget
          > minded alternative. Smooth face on both sides and a reasonable
          > amount of stability. comparable in price to a BCX plywood. Probably
          > the BCX is more stable but uglier and with voids to deal with. Of
          > course the voids are not so good structurally either.
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka97203@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > e:
          > > > There are products out there that are high quality floor
          > > > underlayments such as "Sureply". Aledgedly these underlayments
          > have
          > > > a waterproof glue holding the plys together.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > Just not very much of it...
          > >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Crandall
          ... with a coat of antifreeze I wanted to mention two concerns about this. It s true that soakin in antifreeze can be beneficial. However, one must note that:
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 2 10:45 AM
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            > It's flaws are poor decay resistance, which is fairly easy to deal
            with a coat of antifreeze


            I wanted to mention two concerns about this. It's true that soakin in
            antifreeze can be beneficial. However, one must note that:

            1) Propylene glycol is inconsistent with epoxy adhesion. This means that
            if you soak first, glue second, you're inviting catastrophic failure.
            I'm not guaranteeing said result, but noting the increased probability.
            Glue first; socak second.

            2) A full immersion of antifreeze is preferable. Keep in mind that rot
            can occur deep within the plywood, as long as some oxygen gets in. So,
            although propylene glycol reduces concerns about high rates of rot in
            "inferior" plywood, it does not eliminate them.

            Whatever the case, the most important issue is care--keeping the fresh
            water away, keeping a good paint job in place, fixing dings and
            scratches, and so on. Personally, I treated the cabin sole/floor of my
            Harmonica shantyboat with antifreeze. It eventually rotted, just the
            same. Maybe I put of the eventuality by some years (which would be A
            Good Thing). But a low-rot wood choice would've been even better.

            -Chris
          • Rob Granger
            I don t normally chime in on this forum since I am still in the dreaming stage of my boat project but... I am a chemist and I have something to add that might
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 2 12:32 PM
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              I don't normally chime in on this forum since I am still in the dreaming
              stage of my boat project but... I am a chemist and I have something to add
              that might be beneficial...

              Ethylene glycol (traditional antifreeze) and propylene glycol are both
              miscable with water. Miscable means they will dissolve into water at any
              ratio. You can think of it as infinitely soluble with water. I won't
              claim to know anything about the rot resistance properties of treating wood
              with a glycol but I can say that if you expose the glycol treated wood to
              water, the glycol will wash out/off and then you just have plain old wood.

              I think you would have much better luck using dichloronaphthalene (DiClNap)
              solutions. DiClNap is that green liquid used to treat wood. It is old
              school but very effective... I think you can get it at Lowes under the
              brand name Black Cat. The chemical naphthalene is the active ingredient in
              mothballs and the addition of two chlorine atoms to make it
              dichloronaphthalene makes it so it won't go air born and evaporate out of
              the wood. Additionally, chlorinated aromatic ring systems are proven
              insecticides so you get that added functionality.

              I have used black cat on quite a few wood projects; all with good luck.

              Just 2 cents from a newbie so take it as you wish.

              :-)



              On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > > It's flaws are poor decay resistance, which is fairly easy to deal
              > with a coat of antifreeze
              >
              > I wanted to mention two concerns about this. It's true that soakin in
              > antifreeze can be beneficial. However, one must note that:
              >
              > 1) Propylene glycol is inconsistent with epoxy adhesion. This means that
              > if you soak first, glue second, you're inviting catastrophic failure.
              > I'm not guaranteeing said result, but noting the increased probability.
              > Glue first; socak second.
              >
              > 2) A full immersion of antifreeze is preferable. Keep in mind that rot
              > can occur deep within the plywood, as long as some oxygen gets in. So,
              > although propylene glycol reduces concerns about high rates of rot in
              > "inferior" plywood, it does not eliminate them.
              >
              > Whatever the case, the most important issue is care--keeping the fresh
              > water away, keeping a good paint job in place, fixing dings and
              > scratches, and so on. Personally, I treated the cabin sole/floor of my
              > Harmonica shantyboat with antifreeze. It eventually rotted, just the
              > same. Maybe I put of the eventuality by some years (which would be A
              > Good Thing). But a low-rot wood choice would've been even better.
              >
              > -Chris
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Dr. Robert Granger
              Department of Chemistry
              Sweet Briar College
              434-381-6403
              rgranger@...


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mark Albanese
              Check. The durability of wood is a sometime thing at best. Search here the ratings for even premium Sapele and Khaya starting only around the moderately
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 2 12:46 PM
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                Check.
                The durability of wood is a sometime thing at best.

                Search here the ratings for even premium Sapele and Khaya starting
                only around the moderately durable, 10 - 15 years in ground contact,
                while something non durable will offer us 5 - 10. Perishable
                describes anything less than 5.
                http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/database-terms/


                On Feb 2, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Chris Crandall wrote:
                >
                > Whatever the case, the most important issue is care--keeping the fresh
                > water away, keeping a good paint job in place, fixing dings and
                > scratches, and so on. Personally, I treated the cabin sole/floor of my
                > Harmonica shantyboat with antifreeze. It eventually rotted, just the
                > same. Maybe I put of the eventuality by some years (which would be A
                > Good Thing). But a low-rot wood choice would've been even better.
                >
                > -Chris
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Mark Albanese
                Rob, One thing ya learn around here is that there s no one right answer. Maybe miscable is why antifreeze can apply both onto the bare wood or right through
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 2 2:18 PM
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                  Rob,
                  One thing ya learn around here is that there's no one right answer.

                  Maybe miscable is why antifreeze can apply both onto the bare wood or
                  right through the paint.

                  Two acknowledged masters of boat preservatives are Dave Carnell
                  http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/rot.html
                  and Wooden Boat magazine's Richard Jagels.

                  Both are on to borates.
                  http://www.loghomestore.com/c52-borates---powdered-liquid.php


                  On Feb 2, 2012, at 12:32 PM, Rob Granger wrote:

                  > I don't normally chime in on this forum since I am still in the
                  > dreaming
                  > stage of my boat project but... I am a chemist and I have
                  > something to add
                  > that might be beneficial...
                  >
                  > Ethylene glycol (traditional antifreeze) and propylene glycol are both
                  > miscable with water. Miscable means they will dissolve into water
                  > at any
                  > ratio. You can think of it as infinitely soluble with water. I
                  > won't
                  > claim to know anything about the rot resistance properties of
                  > treating wood
                  > with a glycol but I can say that if you expose the glycol treated
                  > wood to
                  > water, the glycol will wash out/off and then you just have plain
                  > old wood.
                  >
                  > I think you would have much better luck using dichloronaphthalene
                  > (DiClNap)
                  > solutions. DiClNap is that green liquid used to treat wood. It is old
                  > school but very effective... I think you can get it at Lowes under the
                  > brand name Black Cat. The chemical naphthalene is the active
                  > ingredient in
                  > mothballs and the addition of two chlorine atoms to make it
                  > dichloronaphthalene makes it so it won't go air born and evaporate
                  > out of
                  > the wood. Additionally, chlorinated aromatic ring systems are proven
                  > insecticides so you get that added functionality.
                  >
                  > I have used black cat on quite a few wood projects; all with good
                  > luck.
                  >
                  > Just 2 cents from a newbie so take it as you wish.
                  >
                  > :-)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  >> **
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>> It's flaws are poor decay resistance, which is fairly easy to deal
                  >> with a coat of antifreeze
                  >>
                  >> I wanted to mention two concerns about this. It's true that soakin in
                  >> antifreeze can be beneficial. However, one must note that:
                  >>
                  >> 1) Propylene glycol is inconsistent with epoxy adhesion. This
                  >> means that
                  >> if you soak first, glue second, you're inviting catastrophic failure.
                  >> I'm not guaranteeing said result, but noting the increased
                  >> probability.
                  >> Glue first; socak second.
                  >>
                  >> 2) A full immersion of antifreeze is preferable. Keep in mind that
                  >> rot
                  >> can occur deep within the plywood, as long as some oxygen gets in.
                  >> So,
                  >> although propylene glycol reduces concerns about high rates of rot in
                  >> "inferior" plywood, it does not eliminate them.
                  >>
                  >> Whatever the case, the most important issue is care--keeping the
                  >> fresh
                  >> water away, keeping a good paint job in place, fixing dings and
                  >> scratches, and so on. Personally, I treated the cabin sole/floor
                  >> of my
                  >> Harmonica shantyboat with antifreeze. It eventually rotted, just the
                  >> same. Maybe I put of the eventuality by some years (which would be A
                  >> Good Thing). But a low-rot wood choice would've been even better.
                  >>
                  >> -Chris
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Dr. Robert Granger
                  > Department of Chemistry
                  > Sweet Briar College
                  > 434-381-6403
                  > rgranger@...
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Boy
                  Just wondering about vapor hazards.  Are there any hazards that might be expected if this stuff was used in a cabin? Thanks, John Boy   You can trust me, I
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 2 2:59 PM
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                    Just wondering about vapor hazards.  Are there any hazards that might be expected if this stuff was used in a cabin?
                    Thanks,
                    John Boy
                     



                    You can trust me, I have a degree in science...




                    ________________________________

                    I don't normally chime in on this forum since I am still in the dreaming
                    stage of my boat project but...  I am a chemist and I have something to add
                    that might be beneficial...



                    I think you would have much better luck using dichloronaphthalene (DiClNap)
                    solutions. 


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • prairiedog2332
                    I have used pressure treated plywood and solid wood with open edges treated with the green stuff (Cuprinol.) on several outdoor things like boat cradles,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 2 3:39 PM
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                      I have used pressure treated plywood and solid wood with open edges
                      treated with the green stuff (Cuprinol.) on several outdoor things like
                      boat cradles, fence posts etc. But never would use them in a boat.

                      http://www.cuprinol.co.uk/products/products_treatment.jsp
                      <http://www.cuprinol.co.uk/products/products_treatment.jsp>

                      Just my opinion.

                      Nels


                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, John Boy <t1ro2003@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Just wondering about vapor hazards. Are there any hazards that might
                      be expected if this stuff was used in a cabin?
                      > Thanks,
                      > John Boy
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You can trust me, I have a degree in science...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > I don't normally chime in on this forum since I am still in the
                      dreaming
                      > stage of my boat project but... I am a chemist and I have something
                      to add
                      > that might be beneficial...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I think you would have much better luck using dichloronaphthalene
                      (DiClNap)
                      > solutions.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • john colley
                      I have heard of some sailors putting block salt (salt lick) into their bilges to prevent rot.   There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 2 10:30 PM
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                        I have heard of some sailors putting block salt (salt lick) into their bilges to prevent rot.

                         
                        "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                        -Sigurd Olson


                        ________________________________
                        From: Mark Albanese <marka97203@...>
                        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 7:46 AM
                        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Sandeply

                        Check.
                        The durability of wood is a sometime thing at best.

                        Search here the ratings for even premium Sapele and Khaya starting 
                        only around the moderately durable, 10 - 15 years in ground contact, 
                        while something non durable will offer us 5 - 10. Perishable 
                        describes anything less than 5.
                        http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/database-terms/


                        On Feb 2, 2012, at 10:45 AM, Chris Crandall wrote:
                        >
                        > Whatever the case, the most important issue is care--keeping the fresh
                        > water away, keeping a good paint job in place, fixing dings and
                        > scratches, and so on. Personally, I treated the cabin sole/floor of my
                        > Harmonica shantyboat with antifreeze. It eventually rotted, just the
                        > same. Maybe I put of the eventuality by some years (which would be A
                        > Good Thing). But a low-rot wood choice would've been even better.
                        >
                        > -Chris
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • prairiedog2332
                        I think that only applies to boats built with dimensional lumber and caulked between planks and depend on having water immersion to swell the seams tight. If
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 3 9:17 AM
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                          I think that only applies to boats built with dimensional lumber and
                          caulked between planks and depend on having water immersion to swell the
                          seams tight. If you have wet bilges in a plywood boat built to Michalak,
                          Bolger, Payson etc. plans, you already have a problem I doubt salt will
                          help much with.

                          Standing water, combined with dead leaves and other grunge is going to
                          deteriorate the paint and get under it. That is one reason why coving
                          and taping the inner joints is a good idea and having chine logs on the
                          outside. Far easier to keep the interior clean and dry.

                          Nels


                          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have heard of some sailors putting block salt (salt lick) into their
                          bilges to prevent rot.
                          >
                          >
                          > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a
                          magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                          > -Sigurd Olson
                        • Hajo Smulders
                          filleting your stringers, chines and bulkheads will factorially extend your boats life span. And you don t need to fiberglass tape them; a bead of PL Premium
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 3 9:23 AM
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                            filleting your stringers, chines and bulkheads will factorially extend your
                            boats life span.
                            And you don't need to fiberglass tape them; a bead of PL Premium is fine.

                            Hajo
                            --
                            "He has all of the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
                            (Winston Churchill)


                            On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 12:17 PM, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I think that only applies to boats built with dimensional lumber and
                            > caulked between planks and depend on having water immersion to swell the
                            > seams tight. If you have wet bilges in a plywood boat built to Michalak,
                            > Bolger, Payson etc. plans, you already have a problem I doubt salt will
                            > help much with.
                            >
                            > Standing water, combined with dead leaves and other grunge is going to
                            > deteriorate the paint and get under it. That is one reason why coving
                            > and taping the inner joints is a good idea and having chine logs on the
                            > outside. Far easier to keep the interior clean and dry.
                            >
                            > Nels
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ed Bachmann edbz
                            Rock salt in the bilge was used historically by Chesapeake Bay watermen as a preservative back in the 1800’s. I also doubt it would do much good on a ply
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 3 9:56 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Rock salt in the bilge was used historically by Chesapeake Bay watermen as a preservative back in the 1800’s. I also doubt it would do much good on a ply boat.
                              From: prairiedog2332
                              Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:17 PM
                              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Sandeply



                              I think that only applies to boats built with dimensional lumber and
                              caulked between planks and depend on having water immersion to swell the
                              seams tight. If you have wet bilges in a plywood boat built to Michalak,
                              Bolger, Payson etc. plans, you already have a problem I doubt salt will
                              help much with.

                              Standing water, combined with dead leaves and other grunge is going to
                              deteriorate the paint and get under it. That is one reason why coving
                              and taping the inner joints is a good idea and having chine logs on the
                              outside. Far easier to keep the interior clean and dry.

                              Nels

                              --- In mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I have heard of some sailors putting block salt (salt lick) into their
                              bilges to prevent rot.
                              >
                              >
                              > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a
                              magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                              > -Sigurd Olson





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Rob Granger
                              * * JB I did a quick
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 3 10:05 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                *<Just wondering about vapor hazards. Are there any hazards that might be
                                expected if this stuff was used in a cabin?
                                Thanks,
                                John Boy>
                                *
                                JB
                                I did a quick search and found this interesting article on chlorinated
                                naphthalenes...

                                http://www.who.int/ipcs/publications/cicad/en/cicad34.pdf

                                It does not talk about vapor pressure much but does state that the higher
                                the level of chlorination, the less of it you will find in the air ...
                                which implies something about vapor pressure.

                                One interesting side affect from exposure was increased spermatogenesis
                                (increases your sperm count). Hmmmm.... not a recommended way I'm sure
                                :-)
                                <rgranger@...>
                                r


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • john colley
                                In conventional boats like my ts16.Water will always find a way into the bilges.The idea of salt was to make any fresh standing water saline,thus prevent
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 3 4:27 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In conventional boats like my ts16.Water will always find a way into the bilges.The idea of salt was to make any fresh standing water saline,thus prevent rot.Sailing in salt water all the time and covering your boat when standing would help too.

                                   
                                  "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                  -Sigurd Olson


                                  ________________________________
                                  From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2012 4:17 AM
                                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: Sandeply


                                   

                                  I think that only applies to boats built with dimensional lumber and
                                  caulked between planks and depend on having water immersion to swell the
                                  seams tight. If you have wet bilges in a plywood boat built to Michalak,
                                  Bolger, Payson etc. plans, you already have a problem I doubt salt will
                                  help much with.

                                  Standing water, combined with dead leaves and other grunge is going to
                                  deteriorate the paint and get under it. That is one reason why coving
                                  and taping the inner joints is a good idea and having chine logs on the
                                  outside. Far easier to keep the interior clean and dry.

                                  Nels

                                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I have heard of some sailors putting block salt (salt lick) into their
                                  bilges to prevent rot.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a
                                  magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                                  > -Sigurd Olson




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Boy
                                  Good thing I m fixed, dodge that bullet so to speak. LOL John Boy   You can trust me, I have a degree in science... ________________________________ From: Rob
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Feb 3 5:51 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Good thing I'm fixed, dodge that bullet so to speak. LOL
                                    John Boy
                                     



                                    You can trust me, I have a degree in science...




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Rob Granger <rgranger@...>
                                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 12:05 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Michalak] Re: Sandeply


                                     
                                    *<Just wondering about vapor hazards. Are there any hazards that might be
                                    expected if this stuff was used in a cabin?
                                    Thanks,
                                    John Boy>
                                    *
                                    JB
                                    I did a quick search and found this interesting article on chlorinated
                                    naphthalenes...

                                    http://www.who.int/ipcs/publications/cicad/en/cicad34.pdf

                                    It does not talk about vapor pressure much but does state that the higher
                                    the level of chlorination, the less of it you will find in the air ...
                                    which implies something about vapor pressure.

                                    One interesting side affect from exposure was increased spermatogenesis
                                    (increases your sperm count). Hmmmm.... not a recommended way I'm sure
                                    :-)
                                    <rgranger@...>
                                    r

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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