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Re: [Michalak] Re: Family Skiff in the Texas 200 Photos

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  • John Kohnen
    I ve got one of these things, and it really makes moving boats around a lot easier. A typical trailer and Family Skiff should be a snap to move with one:
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 1 1:23 AM
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      I've got one of these things, and it really makes moving boats around a
      lot easier. A typical trailer and Family Skiff should be a snap to move
      with one:

      http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-trailer-dolly-37510.html

      I put a castering pneumatic wheel on the trailer jack of my 15' sailing
      skiff, and it also makes moving the boat around easy, but at the lowest
      position of the jack the tongue is still a little high for some hitches...

      http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inch-pneumatic-swivel-caster-38944.html

      On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 06:26:08 -0700, Stan wrote:

      > ...
      > In general, boats decrease the "impulse usage" as they increase in size
      > and you will generally use a small boat more.
      > ...
      > With the trailer set up right one person can handle the FS just fine but
      > it is noticeably more work than a small pram. One example, I have to
      > use the car to move my FS and trailer into the backyard for storage but
      > I easily move my Piccup and trailer around by hand.
      > ...

      --
      John (jkohnen@...)
      His heart was bound in oak and triple brass who first committed
      a fragile bark to the raging sea... (Horace)
    • gary
      We like the Wooboto and have sailed Noel Davis a couple times. the Mayfly 14 is also nice. I watched Scott Gosnell sail his in the 2010 Florida 120. Piccup is
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 1 8:58 PM
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        We like the Wooboto and have sailed Noel Davis' a couple times. the Mayfly 14 is also nice. I watched Scott Gosnell sail his in the 2010 Florida 120. Piccup is a quick boat for it's size, but it's amazing how one sheet of plywood and a few extra feet of length make a much faster boat in either the Mayfly or the Wooboto. But, alas, neither has bench seats and we like the extra freeboard of the Family Skiff. I think the Family Skiff weighs about the same as our Frolic2, so would expect launching would be about the same. thought maybe you had some tricks I hadn't thought of. I think the FS would be faster to set up the mast wouldn't have to be maneuvered through the slot top & the running rigging would be easier to get at if there's a snarl. the longer and wider cockpit is also nicer for a daysailer.

        A lot of the drawbacks would be addressed if there just was a convenient way to lower the trailer chasis 6-12 inches!

        Gary


        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@...> wrote:
        >
        > I replaced my Piccup Pram with the Family Skiff as I wanted all the features you do plus the ability to handle rough water better. The FS will give you all those "extras" you listed, but at the same cost as any larger boat. Larger, heavier boats will always be more difficult to launch and retrieve than the Piccup. Set up time is about the same as I just use the mainsail for daysailing, yes I have to submerge the trailer now but I see no reason you could not design the trailer for winching the boat up easier than I do.
        >
        > In general, boats decrease the "impulse usage" as they increase in size and you will generally use a small boat more. Sometimes there is no choice in the matter as a smaller boat may not be capable of handling the local conditions. I like to sail on the Gulf coast and my Piccup is just is too small there for the typical summer high winds and heavy chop, but is OK on the local lakes. Jim states that around 15 ft. is a good maximum size for one person to deal with and
        > I would definitely agree there. With the trailer set up right one person can handle the FS just fine but it is noticeably more work than a small pram. One example, I have to use the car to move my FS and trailer into the backyard for storage but I easily move my Piccup and trailer around by hand. If the weight and ground handling are most important, you might consider the Mayfly 14 or Wooboto. They are in between the Piccup and Family Skiff in weight. The Mayfly 14 particularly impressed me this Tex200 as it did everything very well, was a cheap and quick build, and can be transported in the
        > back of a truck just like the Piccup Pram.
        >
        > The Family Skiff handled the heavy chop and high winds of this years Tex 200 with absolutely no problems. Upwind, downwind. There was never a time that I was unsure about the boat, it always felt stable and capable. Upwind it was wet from blowing spray back into the boat when sailing into the waves(as any boat would be), and of course when the larger waves hit on the beam. The boat tacked well in high winds except when the wind gusting over 20 mph and heavy chop (2- 4 ft.) combined on the heading for the Port Mansfield channel. I could not tack upwind there but part of the problem was my tiller has limited motion to port due to the mizzen mast, I failed to build enough S curve in. There was a 17 ft. O'Day Daysailor 2 that also could not make the same tack in front of me. In all other cases, single or double reefed the boat tacked perfectly. Downwind it handles well, any relatively short chubby hull is subject to being pushed around more by large following waves than a long narrow boat like the Lagunas. We were surfing a lot crossing some of the bays and it was easy to control. I have a video of crossing Corpus Christi bay and you can watch the tiller motion I am doing to control the boat. I passed Chuck Leinweber's 26 ft. Caprice in the bay and his boat can be seen in the background of the video rolling about the same as the FS.
        >
        > Stan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • vtrockminer96
        You could modify your trailer to mount the axle on a hinge which could rotate forward (CCW as seen from starboard) after unlocking. The amount of swing would
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 2 6:17 AM
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          You could modify your trailer to mount the axle on a hinge which could rotate forward (CCW as seen from starboard) after unlocking. The amount of swing would depend on how low you can get the frame without dragging the stern of the boat on the concrete. Done with the right geometry, the trailer would lower when you start backing the rig toward the ramp, and you could raise it up to pin the axle for traveling by chocking the trailer wheels and easing the tow vehicle forward. Probably an assisted operation, unless you used some kind of spring latch like on a dump trailer for the yard. I'd probably use a catch for getting the wheels back in the traveling position, and then go back and pin both sides for security. The only real problem I see with this is dealing with the fenders on the trailer. You could probably come up with a way to mount them so they move with the wheels...

          Sorry this is so wordy, but when I read your post, I immediately envisioned a solution!

          - Tim


          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
          >
          > We like the Wooboto and have sailed Noel Davis' a couple times. the Mayfly 14 is also nice. I watched Scott Gosnell sail his in the 2010 Florida 120. Piccup is a quick boat for it's size, but it's amazing how one sheet of plywood and a few extra feet of length make a much faster boat in either the Mayfly or the Wooboto. But, alas, neither has bench seats and we like the extra freeboard of the Family Skiff. I think the Family Skiff weighs about the same as our Frolic2, so would expect launching would be about the same. thought maybe you had some tricks I hadn't thought of. I think the FS would be faster to set up the mast wouldn't have to be maneuvered through the slot top & the running rigging would be easier to get at if there's a snarl. the longer and wider cockpit is also nicer for a daysailer.
          >
          > A lot of the drawbacks would be addressed if there just was a convenient way to lower the trailer chasis 6-12 inches!
          >
          > Gary
          >
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I replaced my Piccup Pram with the Family Skiff as I wanted all the features you do plus the ability to handle rough water better. The FS will give you all those "extras" you listed, but at the same cost as any larger boat. Larger, heavier boats will always be more difficult to launch and retrieve than the Piccup. Set up time is about the same as I just use the mainsail for daysailing, yes I have to submerge the trailer now but I see no reason you could not design the trailer for winching the boat up easier than I do.
          > >
          > > In general, boats decrease the "impulse usage" as they increase in size and you will generally use a small boat more. Sometimes there is no choice in the matter as a smaller boat may not be capable of handling the local conditions. I like to sail on the Gulf coast and my Piccup is just is too small there for the typical summer high winds and heavy chop, but is OK on the local lakes. Jim states that around 15 ft. is a good maximum size for one person to deal with and
          > > I would definitely agree there. With the trailer set up right one person can handle the FS just fine but it is noticeably more work than a small pram. One example, I have to use the car to move my FS and trailer into the backyard for storage but I easily move my Piccup and trailer around by hand. If the weight and ground handling are most important, you might consider the Mayfly 14 or Wooboto. They are in between the Piccup and Family Skiff in weight. The Mayfly 14 particularly impressed me this Tex200 as it did everything very well, was a cheap and quick build, and can be transported in the
          > > back of a truck just like the Piccup Pram.
          > >
          > > The Family Skiff handled the heavy chop and high winds of this years Tex 200 with absolutely no problems. Upwind, downwind. There was never a time that I was unsure about the boat, it always felt stable and capable. Upwind it was wet from blowing spray back into the boat when sailing into the waves(as any boat would be), and of course when the larger waves hit on the beam. The boat tacked well in high winds except when the wind gusting over 20 mph and heavy chop (2- 4 ft.) combined on the heading for the Port Mansfield channel. I could not tack upwind there but part of the problem was my tiller has limited motion to port due to the mizzen mast, I failed to build enough S curve in. There was a 17 ft. O'Day Daysailor 2 that also could not make the same tack in front of me. In all other cases, single or double reefed the boat tacked perfectly. Downwind it handles well, any relatively short chubby hull is subject to being pushed around more by large following waves than a long narrow boat like the Lagunas. We were surfing a lot crossing some of the bays and it was easy to control. I have a video of crossing Corpus Christi bay and you can watch the tiller motion I am doing to control the boat. I passed Chuck Leinweber's 26 ft. Caprice in the bay and his boat can be seen in the background of the video rolling about the same as the FS.
          > >
          > > Stan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • scr243
          I just came back from a little overnight cruise on my Piccup Pram and here are some things I noticed: I really missed the seats on the FS since I was skooching
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 4 2:36 PM
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            I just came back from a little overnight cruise on my Piccup Pram and here are some things I noticed:

            I really missed the seats on the FS since I was skooching around on my knees and rear so I retorqued my knee that I previously managed to dislocate on the 2009 Tex 200.

            The angle you sit at on the bottom of a boat seems to put more pressure on a smaller spot so your butt starts hurting much quicker (about 1.5 hours of sailing vs about 5 hours in the Family Skiff).

            Launching was about the same for both boats but the Pram is a snap to retrieve

            All the sailing bits on the Pram seemed like toys in comparison, the mast, sail, rudder all felt so small relative to the FS parts.

            Sleeping on the Piccup is about equal to sleeping on the FS in comfort.

            I am definitely spoiled now with the sailing ability of the FS, I just don't have to worry much about the weather or length of trip as I do with the Pram.

            Rigging the Family Skiff takes about the same length of time as the Pram, same number of parts they are just a little larger. No, I don't have any tricks to help other than when you launch take all the tiedowns and winch line off and leave the painter tied to the back of the trailer loosely. Back down and float it off then pull forward to get the boat beached. I am sure you know that one already.


            I think it would make a good boat for you.

            Stan







            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
            >
            > We like the Wooboto and have sailed Noel Davis' a couple times. the Mayfly 14 is also nice. I watched Scott Gosnell sail his in the 2010 Florida 120. Piccup is a quick boat for it's size, but it's amazing how one sheet of plywood and a few extra feet of length make a much faster boat in either the Mayfly or the Wooboto. But, alas, neither has bench seats and we like the extra freeboard of the Family Skiff. I think the Family Skiff weighs about the same as our Frolic2, so would expect launching would be about the same. thought maybe you had some tricks I hadn't thought of. I think the FS would be faster to set up the mast wouldn't have to be maneuvered through the slot top & the running rigging would be easier to get at if there's a snarl. the longer and wider cockpit is also nicer for a daysailer.
            >
            > A lot of the drawbacks would be addressed if there just was a convenient way to lower the trailer chasis 6-12 inches!
            >
            > Gary
            >
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I replaced my Piccup Pram with the Family Skiff as I wanted all the features you do plus the ability to handle rough water better. The FS will give you all those "extras" you listed, but at the same cost as any larger boat. Larger, heavier boats will always be more difficult to launch and retrieve than the Piccup. Set up time is about the same as I just use the mainsail for daysailing, yes I have to submerge the trailer now but I see no reason you could not design the trailer for winching the boat up easier than I do.
            > >
            > > In general, boats decrease the "impulse usage" as they increase in size and you will generally use a small boat more. Sometimes there is no choice in the matter as a smaller boat may not be capable of handling the local conditions. I like to sail on the Gulf coast and my Piccup is just is too small there for the typical summer high winds and heavy chop, but is OK on the local lakes. Jim states that around 15 ft. is a good maximum size for one person to deal with and
            > > I would definitely agree there. With the trailer set up right one person can handle the FS just fine but it is noticeably more work than a small pram. One example, I have to use the car to move my FS and trailer into the backyard for storage but I easily move my Piccup and trailer around by hand. If the weight and ground handling are most important, you might consider the Mayfly 14 or Wooboto. They are in between the Piccup and Family Skiff in weight. The Mayfly 14 particularly impressed me this Tex200 as it did everything very well, was a cheap and quick build, and can be transported in the
            > > back of a truck just like the Piccup Pram.
            > >
            > > The Family Skiff handled the heavy chop and high winds of this years Tex 200 with absolutely no problems. Upwind, downwind. There was never a time that I was unsure about the boat, it always felt stable and capable. Upwind it was wet from blowing spray back into the boat when sailing into the waves(as any boat would be), and of course when the larger waves hit on the beam. The boat tacked well in high winds except when the wind gusting over 20 mph and heavy chop (2- 4 ft.) combined on the heading for the Port Mansfield channel. I could not tack upwind there but part of the problem was my tiller has limited motion to port due to the mizzen mast, I failed to build enough S curve in. There was a 17 ft. O'Day Daysailor 2 that also could not make the same tack in front of me. In all other cases, single or double reefed the boat tacked perfectly. Downwind it handles well, any relatively short chubby hull is subject to being pushed around more by large following waves than a long narrow boat like the Lagunas. We were surfing a lot crossing some of the bays and it was easy to control. I have a video of crossing Corpus Christi bay and you can watch the tiller motion I am doing to control the boat. I passed Chuck Leinweber's 26 ft. Caprice in the bay and his boat can be seen in the background of the video rolling about the same as the FS.
            > >
            > > Stan
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Eugene Dixon
            Hi Stan   Ref: Piccup Pram.   I have same problem with my pram  as you do. Only difference is I have  alot of years on you., lower back want allow me to
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 4 3:54 PM
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              Hi Stan
                Ref: Piccup Pram.   I have same problem with my pram  as you do.
              Only difference is I have  alot of years on you., lower back want allow me to set   in bottom.
                 Am tinkering with adding bench seats down sides 14 to 15 inch's width.
               with your experience what would be your  thoughts?
               
                Eugene
              Port of Catoosa:







              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >








              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • scr243
              You have to have a seat a minimum height above the floor to do much good for comfort issues. I tried a board seat at the chine level in the Piccup during the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 5 10:22 AM
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                You have to have a seat a minimum height above the floor to do much good for comfort issues. I tried a board seat at the chine level in the Piccup during the 2008 Tex 200 and it worked to allow me to face forward while sailing but was not high enough to do much for comfort. You might build a temporary set of brackets that hang on the gunwales and allow you to test out different seat heights. On a low freeboard boat the best option might be just strong side decks that you can sit on. Of course, as you sit higher in the boat your CG moves up and the boat stability goes rapidly downhill. This would not present much of a problem in light constant winds (less than 12 mph) but would require some racing dinghy acrobatics when the wind was strong or inconsistent. Also, the boom is harder to duck since it is lower relative to your head.

                Stan

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Eugene Dixon <edixon193941@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Stan
                >   Ref: Piccup Pram.   I have same problem with my pram  as you do.
                > Only difference is I have  alot of years on you., lower back want allow me to set   in bottom.
                >    Am tinkering with adding bench seats down sides 14 to 15 inch's width.
                >  with your experience what would be your  thoughts?
                >  
                >   Eugene
                > Port of Catoosa:
                >
                >
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                >
                >
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                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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              • John and Kathy Trussell
                I’m an old guy with a variety of infirmities. I recently sold my LFH17 because the seating was very low and it was difficult for me to get up and down. I am
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 6 5:35 AM
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                  I’m an old guy with a variety of infirmities. I recently sold my LFH17
                  because the seating was very low and it was difficult for me to get up and
                  down. I am replacing the LFH17 with a Beach Pea peapod which I selected
                  because the thwarts are about 10 “ above the floorboards (as opposed to
                  about 4” on the LFH17).



                  The minimum seat height to allow comfort will, of course, vary with the
                  height of the individual. 10” to 12” will probably work for a lot of folks.
                  However, it is probably worthwhile to build a mock up of a seat and try it
                  out before building thwarts into a boat. In some cases, it may be possible
                  to raise thwarts along the sides of a boat by a couple of inches (at the
                  expense of back support). Everything about a boat is a compromise and
                  changing one element will affect others with consequences—both intended and
                  unintended. On the other hand, one of the glories of building your own boat
                  is that you can build it to suit yourself and not some hypothetical
                  ‘average’ person dreamed up by a marketer.



                  JohnT

                  _____

                  From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of scr243
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 1:22 PM
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: Family Skiff in the Texas 200 Photos





                  You have to have a seat a minimum height above the floor to do much good for
                  comfort issues. I tried a board seat at the chine level in the Piccup during
                  the 2008 Tex 200 and it worked to allow me to face forward while sailing but
                  was not high enough to do much for comfort. You might build a temporary set
                  of brackets that hang on the gunwales and allow you to test out different
                  seat heights. On a low freeboard boat the best option might be just strong
                  side decks that you can sit on. Of course, as you sit higher in the boat
                  your CG moves up and the boat stability goes rapidly downhill. This would
                  not present much of a problem in light constant winds (less than 12 mph) but
                  would require some racing dinghy acrobatics when the wind was strong or
                  inconsistent. Also, the boom is harder to duck since it is lower relative to
                  your head.

                  Stan

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> , Eugene
                  Dixon <edixon193941@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Stan
                  >  Ref: Piccup Pram.  I have same problem with my pram as you do.
                  > Only difference is I have alot of years on you., lower back want allow
                  me to set  in bottom.
                  > Â Â Am tinkering with adding bench seats down sides 14 to 15 inch's
                  width.
                  >  with your experience what would be your thoughts?
                  > Â
                  > Â Â Eugene
                  > Port of Catoosa:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jon Larson
                  I m another old guy with bad knees. The bench seats in my Ladybug were 10 inches off the floor. I had difficulty getting up and down and was generally
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 6 5:59 AM
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                    I'm another old guy with bad knees. The bench seats in my Ladybug were 10 inches off the floor. I had difficulty getting up and down and was generally uncomfortable. Out came the benches and the cockpit is open. I sit comfortably on my ice chest which is 16 inches off the floor (including the cushion) and can stretch out in all directions. I can move side to side, front to back and can lurch to the gunwales when it gets exciting. The floor is covered with plastic lattice from Home Depot (thank you Chuck) which gives good traction when I move around. The open area is perfect for my air matress if I decide to sleep in the boat, which is my last choice. Yes, visibility is impaired but I've still got enough flexibility to look around. I haven't been decapitated by the boom so far - but give me time. Fair winds...

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "scr243" <scr243@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You have to have a seat a minimum height above the floor to do much good for comfort issues. I tried a board seat at the chine level in the Piccup during the 2008 Tex 200 and it worked to allow me to face forward while sailing but was not high enough to do much for comfort. You might build a temporary set of brackets that hang on the gunwales and allow you to test out different seat heights. On a low freeboard boat the best option might be just strong side decks that you can sit on. Of course, as you sit higher in the boat your CG moves up and the boat stability goes rapidly downhill. This would not present much of a problem in light constant winds (less than 12 mph) but would require some racing dinghy acrobatics when the wind was strong or inconsistent. Also, the boom is harder to duck since it is lower relative to your head.
                    >
                    > Stan
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