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Re: Use of Mizzen + Jim's yawl rig

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  • windgypsy34
    Hi Nels, Thanks for the trysail suggestion. I ve also considered rigging a small jib from our west wight potter on the main mast and sailing jib and jigger .
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
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      Hi Nels,
      Thanks for the trysail suggestion. I've also considered rigging a small jib from our west wight potter on the main mast and sailing "jib and jigger". Lots of ideas to play with.
      One fact that stands out to me is how easily driven Jim's hull designs are. An increase in wind speed is quickly relayed as a good groove for the helmsman and an increase in boat speed. Our Mikesboat is really fun to sail. I do miss the closewinded performance of our previous sloops, but the simplicity of the lug rig is certainly enjoyable. Additionally, the boat's 8' unencumbered cockpit has to be experienced!
      Thanks for your comments and observations.
      Dave

      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dave,
      >
      > Really useful to hear about actual experiences in how versatile a sail a
      > mizzen can be.
      >
      > Reading this I was reminded of an old link to an early Bolger Micro:
      >
      > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/keyes.htm
      >
      > Bolger also wrote about a set-up where you can install a small trysail
      > between the mizzen mast and main mast, tie off the rudder and sit
      > quietly during a storm with the boat fore-reaching very slowly while
      > drifting sideways and quartering into the waves.
      >
      > Anybody hear of that? Would be great to see it diagrammed.
      >
      > Nels
      >
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > I recall a recent thread that discussed mizzens and the yawl rig that
      > > Jim uses. I did not join that discussion, but thought instead that a
      > > practical example of the use of Jim's yawl rig might help answer some
      > > questions. The boat under discussion is Northern Gannet, our
      > Mikesboat
      > > yawl.
      > >
      > > Yesterday, we had an opportunity to sail Pigeon Lake and Lake Michigan
      > > near our home in Holland, Michigan. We launched in Pigeon Lake, a
      > small
      > > lake with a good entrance channel to Lake Michigan. On our return, we
      > > sailed dead down wind into the channel from the big lake. Once in the
      > > small lake, we sheeted the mizzen in hard, let go of the tiller and
      > the
      > > boat "parked itself" straight upwind. While I dropped and furled the
      > > main, my wife eased the mizzen and backed the stern with the rudder to
      > > begin a turn offwind. I took the tiller from her, eased the mizzen
      > > waaaay out, and we proceeded to sail downwind well across Pigeon Lake
      > to
      > > the ramp under mizzen alone in about 8-10kts of wind. No fuss, no
      > > worries.
      > >
      > > I saw this demostrated in last year's OBX 130 when Bill Moffett and
      > > Chuck Leibweiner sailed Ember's Watch, Bill's Mikesboat yawl from the
      > > hunt club to Cape Lookout. As the wind built, they dropped their
      > reefed
      > > main and continued on under mizzen alone as the wind increased to a
      > bit
      > > over 20. Jim's boats can sail under mizzen alone in "sporty"
      > > conditions. Some of you may remember my adventure that day. Yes,
      > > mikesboat IS self-rescuable.
      > >
      > > Dave Chase
      > >
      > > Holland, Michigan
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • john colley
      I have read/heard only good things about the mizzen.They can only add to the versatility of the rig. ________________________________ From: prairiedog2332
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 3, 2011
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        I have read/heard only good things about the mizzen.They can only add to the versatility of the rig.



        ________________________________
        From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2011 1:18 AM
        Subject: [Michalak] Re: Use of Mizzen + Jim's yawl rig


         
        Dave,

        Really useful to hear about actual experiences in how versatile a sail a
        mizzen can be.

        Reading this I was reminded of an old link to an early Bolger Micro:

        http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/keyes.htm

        Bolger also wrote about a set-up where you can install a small trysail
        between the mizzen mast and main mast, tie off the rudder and sit
        quietly during a storm with the boat fore-reaching very slowly while
        drifting sideways and quartering into the waves.

        Anybody hear of that? Would be great to see it diagrammed.

        Nels

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I recall a recent thread that discussed mizzens and the yawl rig that
        > Jim uses. I did not join that discussion, but thought instead that a
        > practical example of the use of Jim's yawl rig might help answer some
        > questions. The boat under discussion is Northern Gannet, our
        Mikesboat
        > yawl.
        >
        > Yesterday, we had an opportunity to sail Pigeon Lake and Lake Michigan
        > near our home in Holland, Michigan. We launched in Pigeon Lake, a
        small
        > lake with a good entrance channel to Lake Michigan. On our return, we
        > sailed dead down wind into the channel from the big lake. Once in the
        > small lake, we sheeted the mizzen in hard, let go of the tiller and
        the
        > boat "parked itself" straight upwind. While I dropped and furled the
        > main, my wife eased the mizzen and backed the stern with the rudder to
        > begin a turn offwind. I took the tiller from her, eased the mizzen
        > waaaay out, and we proceeded to sail downwind well across Pigeon Lake
        to
        > the ramp under mizzen alone in about 8-10kts of wind. No fuss, no
        > worries.
        >
        > I saw this demostrated in last year's OBX 130 when Bill Moffett and
        > Chuck Leibweiner sailed Ember's Watch, Bill's Mikesboat yawl from the
        > hunt club to Cape Lookout. As the wind built, they dropped their
        reefed
        > main and continued on under mizzen alone as the wind increased to a
        bit
        > over 20. Jim's boats can sail under mizzen alone in "sporty"
        > conditions. Some of you may remember my adventure that day. Yes,
        > mikesboat IS self-rescuable.
        >
        > Dave Chase
        >
        > Holland, Michigan
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • prairiedog2332
        Dave, You are no doubt aware the original WWP had a mizzen - mounted on a bipod mast. Stanley Smith also employed what was apparently a very successful tactic
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 4, 2011
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          Dave,

          You are no doubt aware the original WWP had a mizzen - mounted on a
          bipod mast.

          Stanley Smith also employed what was apparently a very successful tactic
          for riding out a blow using a old weighted tire with a bridle set-up as
          a sea anchor. That could be a very interesting option to practice before
          venturing out on a big lake. Set the mizzen and deploy the tire off the
          bow with lots of scope so the tire sinks down into quiet water.

          I posted some info of his to this group - so you probably have to be a
          member to see it.

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/files/West%20Wight%20Potter%\
          20%20History/

          Nels

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Nels,
          > Thanks for the trysail suggestion. I've also considered rigging a
          small jib from our west wight potter on the main mast and sailing "jib
          and jigger". Lots of ideas to play with.
          > One fact that stands out to me is how easily driven Jim's hull designs
          are. An increase in wind speed is quickly relayed as a good groove for
          the helmsman and an increase in boat speed. Our Mikesboat is really fun
          to sail. I do miss the closewinded performance of our previous sloops,
          but the simplicity of the lug rig is certainly enjoyable. Additionally,
          the boat's 8' unencumbered cockpit has to be experienced!
          > Thanks for your comments and observations.
          > Dave
          >
          > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Dave,
          > >
          > > Really useful to hear about actual experiences in how versatile a
          sail a
          > > mizzen can be.
          > >
          > > Reading this I was reminded of an old link to an early Bolger Micro:
          > >
          > > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/keyes.htm
          > >
          > > Bolger also wrote about a set-up where you can install a small
          trysail
          > > between the mizzen mast and main mast, tie off the rudder and sit
          > > quietly during a storm with the boat fore-reaching very slowly while
          > > drifting sideways and quartering into the waves.
          > >
          > > Anybody hear of that? Would be great to see it diagrammed.
          > >
          > > Nels
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I recall a recent thread that discussed mizzens and the yawl rig
          that
          > > > Jim uses. I did not join that discussion, but thought instead
          that a
          > > > practical example of the use of Jim's yawl rig might help answer
          some
          > > > questions. The boat under discussion is Northern Gannet, our
          > > Mikesboat
          > > > yawl.
          > > >
          > > > Yesterday, we had an opportunity to sail Pigeon Lake and Lake
          Michigan
          > > > near our home in Holland, Michigan. We launched in Pigeon Lake, a
          > > small
          > > > lake with a good entrance channel to Lake Michigan. On our
          return, we
          > > > sailed dead down wind into the channel from the big lake. Once in
          the
          > > > small lake, we sheeted the mizzen in hard, let go of the tiller
          and
          > > the
          > > > boat "parked itself" straight upwind. While I dropped and furled
          the
          > > > main, my wife eased the mizzen and backed the stern with the
          rudder to
          > > > begin a turn offwind. I took the tiller from her, eased the
          mizzen
          > > > waaaay out, and we proceeded to sail downwind well across Pigeon
          Lake
          > > to
          > > > the ramp under mizzen alone in about 8-10kts of wind. No fuss, no
          > > > worries.
          > > >
          > > > I saw this demostrated in last year's OBX 130 when Bill Moffett
          and
          > > > Chuck Leibweiner sailed Ember's Watch, Bill's Mikesboat yawl from
          the
          > > > hunt club to Cape Lookout. As the wind built, they dropped their
          > > reefed
          > > > main and continued on under mizzen alone as the wind increased to
          a
          > > bit
          > > > over 20. Jim's boats can sail under mizzen alone in "sporty"
          > > > conditions. Some of you may remember my adventure that day. Yes,
          > > > mikesboat IS self-rescuable.
          > > >
          > > > Dave Chase
          > > >
          > > > Holland, Michigan
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • windgypsy34
          Thanks for the memory jog Nels. I do have a picture of Stan s rig for the OCTOBER POTTER delivery. I found our potter under an old blue tarp in a boat
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 4, 2011
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            Thanks for the memory jog Nels. I do have a picture of Stan's rig for the OCTOBER POTTER delivery. I found our potter under an old blue tarp in a boat storage yard. Her hull was so oxydized that it appeared red. Much elbow grease and compounding revealed a bright shade of orange! I still use it as my solo boat and minicruiser. Dave

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <nelsarv@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dave,
            >
            > You are no doubt aware the original WWP had a mizzen - mounted on a
            > bipod mast.
            >
            > Stanley Smith also employed what was apparently a very successful tactic
            > for riding out a blow using a old weighted tire with a bridle set-up as
            > a sea anchor. That could be a very interesting option to practice before
            > venturing out on a big lake. Set the mizzen and deploy the tire off the
            > bow with lots of scope so the tire sinks down into quiet water.
            >
            > I posted some info of his to this group - so you probably have to be a
            > member to see it.
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/files/West%20Wight%20Potter%\
            > 20%20History/
            >
            > Nels
            >
            > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Nels,
            > > Thanks for the trysail suggestion. I've also considered rigging a
            > small jib from our west wight potter on the main mast and sailing "jib
            > and jigger". Lots of ideas to play with.
            > > One fact that stands out to me is how easily driven Jim's hull designs
            > are. An increase in wind speed is quickly relayed as a good groove for
            > the helmsman and an increase in boat speed. Our Mikesboat is really fun
            > to sail. I do miss the closewinded performance of our previous sloops,
            > but the simplicity of the lug rig is certainly enjoyable. Additionally,
            > the boat's 8' unencumbered cockpit has to be experienced!
            > > Thanks for your comments and observations.
            > > Dave
            > >
            > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dave,
            > > >
            > > > Really useful to hear about actual experiences in how versatile a
            > sail a
            > > > mizzen can be.
            > > >
            > > > Reading this I was reminded of an old link to an early Bolger Micro:
            > > >
            > > > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/keyes.htm
            > > >
            > > > Bolger also wrote about a set-up where you can install a small
            > trysail
            > > > between the mizzen mast and main mast, tie off the rudder and sit
            > > > quietly during a storm with the boat fore-reaching very slowly while
            > > > drifting sideways and quartering into the waves.
            > > >
            > > > Anybody hear of that? Would be great to see it diagrammed.
            > > >
            > > > Nels
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I recall a recent thread that discussed mizzens and the yawl rig
            > that
            > > > > Jim uses. I did not join that discussion, but thought instead
            > that a
            > > > > practical example of the use of Jim's yawl rig might help answer
            > some
            > > > > questions. The boat under discussion is Northern Gannet, our
            > > > Mikesboat
            > > > > yawl.
            > > > >
            > > > > Yesterday, we had an opportunity to sail Pigeon Lake and Lake
            > Michigan
            > > > > near our home in Holland, Michigan. We launched in Pigeon Lake, a
            > > > small
            > > > > lake with a good entrance channel to Lake Michigan. On our
            > return, we
            > > > > sailed dead down wind into the channel from the big lake. Once in
            > the
            > > > > small lake, we sheeted the mizzen in hard, let go of the tiller
            > and
            > > > the
            > > > > boat "parked itself" straight upwind. While I dropped and furled
            > the
            > > > > main, my wife eased the mizzen and backed the stern with the
            > rudder to
            > > > > begin a turn offwind. I took the tiller from her, eased the
            > mizzen
            > > > > waaaay out, and we proceeded to sail downwind well across Pigeon
            > Lake
            > > > to
            > > > > the ramp under mizzen alone in about 8-10kts of wind. No fuss, no
            > > > > worries.
            > > > >
            > > > > I saw this demostrated in last year's OBX 130 when Bill Moffett
            > and
            > > > > Chuck Leibweiner sailed Ember's Watch, Bill's Mikesboat yawl from
            > the
            > > > > hunt club to Cape Lookout. As the wind built, they dropped their
            > > > reefed
            > > > > main and continued on under mizzen alone as the wind increased to
            > a
            > > > bit
            > > > > over 20. Jim's boats can sail under mizzen alone in "sporty"
            > > > > conditions. Some of you may remember my adventure that day. Yes,
            > > > > mikesboat IS self-rescuable.
            > > > >
            > > > > Dave Chase
            > > > >
            > > > > Holland, Michigan
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Andres Espino
            I use the tire sea anchor but it is more properly called a drogue.  I have used one successfully throughout the Caribbean since the late 1980s.  I have
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 4, 2011
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              I use the tire sea anchor but it is more properly called a drogue.  I have used one successfully throughout the Caribbean since the late 1980s.  I have written about it a lot in the lowcostvoyaging group.  Sea Anchors are usually deployed from the bow and keep you relatively stationary and facing the weather.

              I never knew the WWP once had a mizzen.

              I have the Raymarine autohelm 1000 and it uses way too much power (about 5A per hour)  I have
              replaced it with the Bolger mizzen which will steer the long micro within
              + or - 3 degrees (so they say) watch the video that proves it..



              Bolger Micro Self Steering

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD5BKu9634Y



              Using the mizzen is about as effective as rigging 'sheet to tiller'
              steering,  but with less lines rigging it.  This kind of steering is not
              effective at all points of wind so am keeping the autohelm 1000 and I will use the 1000
              only intermittantly.



              My biggest complaint about windvanes is their high cost and have to be
              constructed for a particular boat.  Even homemade ones are costly if you
              are a novice and have to hire a machine shop to make it for you.  They get in the way trailering a boat and on a small boat they seem half as big as the boat.

              Although controversial, I am retro-fitting a Bolger type Stern Mizzen
              sail to my "Plastic Classic".  You won't believe how much flack I am
              getting about it.  The end result is easier to work with than the 'sheet
              to tiller' setup which also works for self steering.



              Remember Bolger was somewhat eccentric and criticized for his "square
              boats" and "Mizzen sails".  Many of Bolger's and Michalak's designs
              employ the stern mounted mizzen.  You furl the mizzen first.. the boat
              weathervanes into the wind.. you raise the main and jib.. set your
              course and then adjust the mizzen to trim it there.  It will hold you on
              course reasonably well and if you are checking coordinates with your
              GPS 3 or 4 times a day you can correct it.  It is far more accurate than
              lashing the tiller and easier than rigging sheet to tiller steering.

              Here is the whole procedure done on a Bolger Martha Jane
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiJC_rGcho

              Andrew








              --- On Sat, 6/4/11, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

              From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Use of Mizzen + Jim's yawl rig
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, June 4, 2011, 1:39 AM







               









              Dave,



              You are no doubt aware the original WWP had a mizzen - mounted on a

              bipod mast.



              Stanley Smith also employed what was apparently a very successful tactic

              for riding out a blow using a old weighted tire with a bridle set-up as

              a sea anchor. That could be a very interesting option to practice before

              venturing out on a big lake. Set the mizzen and deploy the tire off the

              bow with lots of scope so the tire sinks down into quiet water.



              I posted some info of his to this group - so you probably have to be a

              member to see it.



              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/files/West%20Wight%20Potter%\

              20%20History/



              Nels



              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@...> wrote:

              >

              > Hi Nels,

              > Thanks for the trysail suggestion. I've also considered rigging a

              small jib from our west wight potter on the main mast and sailing "jib

              and jigger". Lots of ideas to play with.

              > One fact that stands out to me is how easily driven Jim's hull designs

              are. An increase in wind speed is quickly relayed as a good groove for

              the helmsman and an increase in boat speed. Our Mikesboat is really fun

              to sail. I do miss the closewinded performance of our previous sloops,

              but the simplicity of the lug rig is certainly enjoyable. Additionally,

              the boat's 8' unencumbered cockpit has to be experienced!

              > Thanks for your comments and observations.

              > Dave

              >

              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" nelsarv@ wrote:

              > >

              > > Dave,

              > >

              > > Really useful to hear about actual experiences in how versatile a

              sail a

              > > mizzen can be.

              > >

              > > Reading this I was reminded of an old link to an early Bolger Micro:

              > >

              > > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/keyes.htm

              > >

              > > Bolger also wrote about a set-up where you can install a small

              trysail

              > > between the mizzen mast and main mast, tie off the rudder and sit

              > > quietly during a storm with the boat fore-reaching very slowly while

              > > drifting sideways and quartering into the waves.

              > >

              > > Anybody hear of that? Would be great to see it diagrammed.

              > >

              > > Nels

              > >

              > >

              > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "windgypsy34" <djchase@> wrote:

              > > >

              > > >

              > > > I recall a recent thread that discussed mizzens and the yawl rig

              that

              > > > Jim uses. I did not join that discussion, but thought instead

              that a

              > > > practical example of the use of Jim's yawl rig might help answer

              some

              > > > questions. The boat under discussion is Northern Gannet, our

              > > Mikesboat

              > > > yawl.

              > > >

              > > > Yesterday, we had an opportunity to sail Pigeon Lake and Lake

              Michigan

              > > > near our home in Holland, Michigan. We launched in Pigeon Lake, a

              > > small

              > > > lake with a good entrance channel to Lake Michigan. On our

              return, we

              > > > sailed dead down wind into the channel from the big lake. Once in

              the

              > > > small lake, we sheeted the mizzen in hard, let go of the tiller

              and

              > > the

              > > > boat "parked itself" straight upwind. While I dropped and furled

              the

              > > > main, my wife eased the mizzen and backed the stern with the

              rudder to

              > > > begin a turn offwind. I took the tiller from her, eased the

              mizzen

              > > > waaaay out, and we proceeded to sail downwind well across Pigeon

              Lake

              > > to

              > > > the ramp under mizzen alone in about 8-10kts of wind. No fuss, no

              > > > worries.

              > > >

              > > > I saw this demostrated in last year's OBX 130 when Bill Moffett

              and

              > > > Chuck Leibweiner sailed Ember's Watch, Bill's Mikesboat yawl from

              the

              > > > hunt club to Cape Lookout. As the wind built, they dropped their

              > > reefed

              > > > main and continued on under mizzen alone as the wind increased to

              a

              > > bit

              > > > over 20. Jim's boats can sail under mizzen alone in "sporty"

              > > > conditions. Some of you may remember my adventure that day. Yes,

              > > > mikesboat IS self-rescuable.

              > > >

              > > > Dave Chase

              > > >

              > > > Holland, Michigan

              > > >

              > > >

              > > >

              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > > >

              > >

              >






















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