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Performance-- Larsboat and Toto

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  • Robert
    I know that a number of you our there have built either the Larsboat or the Toto, I am trying to find out how well they paddle compared to a production canoe.
    Message 1 of 15 , May 3, 2011
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      I know that a number of you our there have built either the Larsboat or the Toto, I am trying to find out how well they paddle compared to a production canoe.

      Also, if anyone has put a sailing rig on their Larsboat without adding outriggers, I would be interested in how it sails.

      Thanks,

      Bob
    • traidna
      Bob, I have built and paddled both the Toto and Larsboat (along with the Trilars rig). I did sail the Larsboat with the trimaran set up but not without,
      Message 2 of 15 , May 3, 2011
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        Bob,
        I have built and paddled both the Toto and Larsboat (along with the Trilars rig).

        I did sail the Larsboat with the trimaran set up but not without, however did sail my Toto that way.

        The toto did move under sail, with a leeboard and rudder with push pull tiller. It's not going to out run a sunfish or laser but it's great fun.

        Paddling is good with both, my daughter who was 6 when I launched the Larsboat was able to paddle by herself in quiet water. And with both of us using double paddles we really got her moving.

        For pictures of each being built and paddled and Trilars sailed see www.buildboats.com

        Tom Raidna


        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <wd0d@...> wrote:
        >
        > I know that a number of you our there have built either the Larsboat or the Toto, I am trying to find out how well they paddle compared to a production canoe.
        >
        > Also, if anyone has put a sailing rig on their Larsboat without adding outriggers, I would be interested in how it sails.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Bob
        >
      • john colley
        I would be interested in the replies too. I was thinking of buying toto plans. ________________________________ From: Robert To:
        Message 3 of 15 , May 4, 2011
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          I would be interested in the replies too. I was thinking of buying toto plans.



          ________________________________
          From: Robert <wd0d@...>
          To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2011 4:19 AM
          Subject: Re: [Michalak] Performance-- Larsboat and Toto


           
          I know that a number of you our there have built either the Larsboat or the Toto, I am trying to find out how well they paddle compared to a production canoe.

          Also, if anyone has put a sailing rig on their Larsboat without adding outriggers, I would be interested in how it sails.

          Thanks,

          Bob




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • thatmoffitt
          HI I built a Larsboat and I would say it paddles better then a production canoe. The key is to build it as lite as possible and as straight as possible. I
          Message 4 of 15 , May 4, 2011
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            HI
            I built a Larsboat and I would say it paddles better then a production canoe. The key is to build it as lite as possible and as straight as possible. I saw a guy at the texas 200, at the end at the magnolia beach messabout, try to sail the larsboat without the outriggers and it was a total failure. I think with a bat sail and small lee board it would have been better. but really only down wind would work and it would have to be a small sail to try to get anywhere close to the wind. He was using the trilar rig without the outriggers which he had yet to finish.
            yours
            Paul Moffitt

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <wd0d@...> wrote:
            >
            > I know that a number of you our there have built either the Larsboat or the Toto, I am trying to find out how well they paddle compared to a production canoe.
            >
            > Also, if anyone has put a sailing rig on their Larsboat without adding outriggers, I would be interested in how it sails.
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Bob
            >
          • chrispychrispy2000
            I was wondering this same thing. Paul s boat is 6 wider than Toto and 24 longer. Is this 6 the difference between sailable and not sailable? I was
            Message 5 of 15 , May 9
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              I was wondering this same thing.  Paul's boat is  6" wider than Toto and 24" longer.  Is this 6" the difference between sailable and not sailable?  I was thinking about building a Toto with a leeboard a fore deck and a sail rig just as Paul's boat but maybe 10-20% smaller.  If it doesn't work I still have a nice little paddle boat.
            • chrispychrispy2000
              I also am confused about the width of the 14 Piragua. The listed size is 36 but in the description it is listed as 30 . If the Piragua is the same width as
              Message 6 of 15 , May 9
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                I also am confused about the width of the 14' Piragua.  The listed size is 36" but in the description it is listed as 30".  If the Piragua is the same width as the Paul's boat maybe this would be a good platform for a small simple sailboat.
              • chrispychrispy2000
                the Piragua is pretty much like these punts. These Duck Punts are only 34 wide. I love my Punt! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ3hLPJn_xA
                Message 7 of 15 , May 9
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                  the Piragua is pretty much like these punts.  These Duck Punts are only 34" wide.




                   I love my Punt!

                   

                • Mark Albanese
                  That 6 on the bottom plus the weight of 6 sheets of ply instead of just 2 goes a long way towards making Paulsboat more sailable than Toto. With the tiniest
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 9
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                    That 6" on the bottom plus the weight of 6 sheets of ply instead of just 2 goes a long way towards making Paulsboat more sailable than Toto. With the tiniest scrap sail and a willingness to get wet, you may still have some fun,  tho.

                    Mark

                    On May 9, 2015 3:53 PM, "chrispychrispy2000@... [Michalak]" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                     

                    I was wondering this same thing.  Paul's boat is  6" wider than Toto and 24" longer.  Is this 6" the difference between sailable and not sailable?  I was thinking about building a Toto with a leeboard a fore deck and a sail rig just as Paul's boat but maybe 10-20% smaller.  If it doesn't work I still have a nice little paddle boat.

                  • chrispychrispy2000
                    Well I am not so interested in getting wet often. LOL How about the Piragua? Is it indeed the same width as the Paul s boat? Its a flat bottom hard chinned
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 9
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                      Well I am not so interested in getting wet often.  LOL  How about the Piragua?  Is it indeed the same width as the Paul's boat?  Its a flat bottom hard chinned boat.  Obviously its not going to be a smooth sailor.  Is it a more stable platform than a Toto?
                    • Mark Albanese
                      Not near my books right no to check, but going by Jim s DW write up, Piragua is 36 wide x 24 on the bottom. ( that seems like too much flare - a misprint -
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 9
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                        Not near my books right no to check, but going by Jim's DW write up, Piragua is 36" wide x 24" on the bottom. ( that seems like too much flare - a misprint - may really be 30" on the bottom )

                        Either way she'll be less tippy than Toto but still lack the power to carry sail like a real sailboat.

                        Somebody adapted the Trilars concept to Toto if that would suit.

                        Otherwise, Jim's assessment of the boat you're after is more the size of Paulsboat.

                        Mark

                        On May 9, 2015 4:56 PM, "chrispychrispy2000@... [Michalak]" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         

                        Well I am not so interested in getting wet often.  LOL  How about the Piragua?  Is it indeed the same width as the Paul's boat?  Its a flat bottom hard chinned boat.  Obviously its not going to be a smooth sailor.  Is it a more stable platform than a Toto?

                      • Mark Albanese
                        Dimensions for Piragua in Jim s book. Temporary frame ( inside planking ): Beam 30 Bottom width 24 Just to be sure it will come out someone s basement
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 10
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                          Dimensions for Piragua in Jim's book.

                          Temporary frame ( inside planking ):
                          Beam 30"
                          Bottom width 24"

                          Just to be sure it will come out someone's basement window:

                          Laminated wales add close to 3", counting both sides. The external chines are single, so total about 1½.

                          ½" for the planking, so total 33½“ by 26".

                          She has the normal sharpie flare of 15 deg.

                        • chrispychrispy2000
                          OK so the Piragua is two and a half inches narrower than the Paul s boat. That and it has a flat bottom so there is more in the water at the widest point. I
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 10
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                            OK so the Piragua is two and a half inches narrower than the Paul's boat. That and it has a flat bottom so there is more in the water at the widest point.  I am interested in a paddle boat that is easy to car top.  The Paul's boat is a compromise already. It is not a sailboat.  It is a paddleboat with a sail. 


                             Maybe next year I will build a sailboat to put on a trailer.  I like the Woobo. Then I would have a dedicated sailboat for two people and also have the paddle boat I build this year.

                          • Mark Albanese
                            I like your thinking! On May 10, 2015 5:52 AM, chrispychrispy2000@yahoo.com [Michalak]
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 10
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                              I like your thinking!

                              On May 10, 2015 5:52 AM, "chrispychrispy2000@... [Michalak]" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                               

                              OK so the Piragua is two and a half inches narrower than the Paul's boat. That and it has a flat bottom so there is more in the water at the widest point.  I am interested in a paddle boat that is easy to car top.  The Paul's boat is a compromise already. It is not a sailboat.  It is a paddleboat with a sail. 


                               Maybe next year I will build a sailboat to put on a trailer.  I like the Woobo. Then I would have a dedicated sailboat for two people and also have the paddle boat I build this year.

                            • daniel brown
                              nope. paul s sailing canoe is designed as a sailing canoe, not a paddleboat. the time and money spent on the sailing equipment and fittings cost about as much
                              Message 14 of 15 , May 11
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                                nope. paul's sailing canoe is designed as a sailing canoe, not a paddleboat. the time and money spent on the sailing equipment and fittings cost about as much time and effort as the hull. further, paddling canoes have seats. paul's boat sailers sit on the floor as do most canoe sailers to get weight low. not great for paddling. the leeboard is attached to a permanent bracket built into the hull and deck that will interfere to some degree with paddling.  paul's is a sailing canoe  that  can be paddled. not a  paddle boat that can be sailed.  i'd love to sail one.


                                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 11:28:02 -0700
                                Subject: [Michalak] Re: Performance-- Larsboat and Toto

                                 

                                I like your thinking!

                                On May 10, 2015 5:52 AM, "chrispychrispy2000@... [Michalak]" <Michalak@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                 

                                OK so the Piragua is two and a half inches narrower than the Paul's boat. That and it has a flat bottom so there is more in the water at the widest point.  I am interested in a paddle boat that is easy to car top.  The Paul's boat is a compromise already. It is not a sailboat.  It is a paddleboat with a sail. 


                                 Maybe next year I will build a sailboat to put on a trailer.  I like the Woobo. Then I would have a dedicated sailboat for two people and also have the paddle boat I build this year.



                              • chrispychrispy2000
                                Well yeah sure it is a sailing canoe purpose designed to be sailed. That said Jim Michalak s points out it is a compromise as he says in the Paul s boat
                                Message 15 of 15 , May 11
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                                  Well yeah sure it is a sailing canoe purpose designed to be sailed.  That said Jim Michalak's  points out it is a compromise as he says in the Paul's boat write up:


                                  "I had always put off designing one because I had the idea the usual sailing canoe design is too wide to be good with a paddle, and too narrow to be good with a sail."

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