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Lee Board and Rudder questions

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  • Dean Herring
    well, I just measured 10 inches of snow in NE Raleigh... BUT the work continues in the garage (got it back up to 50 degrees. The lee board has been done for a
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 26, 2010
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      well, I just measured 10 inches of snow in NE Raleigh... BUT the work continues in the garage (got it back up to 50 degrees. The lee board has been done for a while sans the epoxy coat - clearance to the lee board upper bit is 3/16 total - do I need to glass the board to get the gap tighter? I was not planning on glassing the board just epoxy coat and then finish with graphite mixed with epoxy. How loose can the rudder be?- I made a sandwich of the cheeks instead of just one side. Rudder is 1 inch thick and I'm laying the rudder cheeks up now with 1 inch thick cheeks on each side and in the center a 1 inch layer of ply with a Sureply layer in-between (5mm I think) - so that the clearance for the rudder is 5mm total (I can make less by glassing the rudder) So, I was going to leave the clearances alone on both the rudder and lee board and not glass either. Rudder and lee board will be kept down with releasable cleat. Comments appreciated right now - before I glue everything together! Thanks - Dean
    • captreed@sbcglobal.net
      Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32 or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 26, 2010
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        Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32" or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure of is that they move up and down easily. If the tolerances are too tight a grain of sand might jam them.

        Reed
        Ventura, CA
      • Dean Herring
        thanks, Reed. How many people glass their rudder and lee board? I ve got a builder friend close by that always does but not the rounded edges so what s the
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 27, 2010
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          thanks, Reed.
          How many people glass their rudder and lee board? I've got a builder friend close by that always does but not the rounded edges so what's the advantage if you can't do the edges to protect them? Does glassing the flat portion add any strength or is it just dent and scratch protection?
          DEan

          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@..." <captreed@...> wrote:
          >
          > Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32" or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure of is that they move up and down easily. If the tolerances are too tight a grain of sand might jam them.
          >
          > Reed
          > Ventura, CA
          >
        • KEN
          it adds some strength, skin hardness, and water resistance all. I havent done much in the way of sailing craft, the one I did got the whole daggerboard
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 27, 2010
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            it adds some strength, skin hardness, and water resistance all. I havent done much in the way of sailing craft, the one I did got the whole daggerboard wrapped, and the rudders edges all wrapped with a couple resin coats to the faces to help water and abuse proof em.
            idk if thats helpful to your question, just seems natural doing to me

            --- On Mon, 12/27/10, Dean Herring <dfharing@...> wrote:


            From: Dean Herring <dfharing@...>
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Lee Board and Rudder questions
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 7:50 AM


             



            thanks, Reed.
            How many people glass their rudder and lee board? I've got a builder friend close by that always does but not the rounded edges so what's the advantage if you can't do the edges to protect them? Does glassing the flat portion add any strength or is it just dent and scratch protection?
            DEan

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@..." <captreed@...> wrote:
            >
            > Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32" or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure of is that they move up and down easily. If the tolerances are too tight a grain of sand might jam them.
            >
            > Reed
            > Ventura, CA
            >











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          • TheM
            I think I read in a Duckworks article where someone soaked some rope in epoxy, and then wrapped/glued around their rudder/leeboard. It gave them a nice round
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 27, 2010
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              I think I read in a Duckworks article where someone soaked some rope in epoxy, and then wrapped/glued around their rudder/leeboard. It gave them a nice round at the edges, and some extra wear and abrasion protection. You may want to give that a try!


              Chris Curtis
              s/v Romany
              curtisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, KEN <rekkamurd@...> wrote:
              >
              > it adds some strength, skin hardness, and water resistance all. I havent done much in the way of sailing craft, the one I did got the whole daggerboard wrapped, and the rudders edges all wrapped with a couple resin coats to the faces to help water and abuse proof em.
              > idk if thats helpful to your question, just seems natural doing to me
              >
              > --- On Mon, 12/27/10, Dean Herring <dfharing@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Dean Herring <dfharing@...>
              > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Lee Board and Rudder questions
              > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 7:50 AM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > thanks, Reed.
              > How many people glass their rudder and lee board? I've got a builder friend close by that always does but not the rounded edges so what's the advantage if you can't do the edges to protect them? Does glassing the flat portion add any strength or is it just dent and scratch protection?
              > DEan
              >
              > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@" <captreed@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32" or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure of is that they move up and down easily. If the tolerances are too tight a grain of sand might jam them.
              > >
              > > Reed
              > > Ventura, CA
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Philip Frohne
              As for glassing rudders, I did one weirder.  Wanting a foiled rudder, I built one up using 2 plys on either side of a 1/8 core plywood (5/8 total).  Then
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 28, 2010
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                As for glassing rudders, I did one weirder.  Wanting a foiled rudder, I built one up using 2 plys on either side of a 1/8" 'core' plywood (5/8" total).  Then instead of carving and sanding I faired it using drywall mud.  Very easy to shape and mistakes are corrected by the application of more mud.  Any complex airfoil is easily made this way.  Then I glassed it.  The maximum thickness of the mud is only 1/8", and even if it leaches out, the fiberglass has it's shape.  So far, it works like gangbusters.  While being somewhat heavy, it still floats so would benefit from lead weight. 

                This doesn't solve the edge issue, but it does make for quick & dirty experimentation of foils.  There is no doubt that foiled rudders perform better than flat rudders.  You can both see and hear the difference.

                Philip T. Frohne

                Hazelwood, MO USA
                Uncle Johns Skiff





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              • John Huft
                The sheetrock mud idea has some merit but it turns to mud when wet.  I wonder of bondo would work?  John Boy       . It s the tides, man. They can either
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 28, 2010
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                  The sheetrock mud idea has some merit but it turns to mud when wet.  I wonder of
                  bondo would work? 

                  John Boy
                   
                   
                   
                  ."It's the tides, man. They can either work for you or they can work against
                  you...

                  Confidentially, I've had this problem with the tides before."
                  --Captain Ron




                  ________________________________
                  From: Philip Frohne <ptfrohne@...>
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 8:51:10 AM
                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: Lee Board and Rudder questions

                   
                  As for glassing rudders, I did one weirder.  Wanting a foiled rudder, I built
                  one up using 2 plys on either side of a 1/8" 'core' plywood (5/8" total).  Then
                  instead of carving and sanding I faired it using drywall mud.  Very easy to
                  shape and mistakes are corrected by the application of more mud.  Any complex
                  airfoil is easily made this way.  Then I glassed it.  The maximum thickness of
                  the mud is only 1/8", and even if it leaches out, the fiberglass has it's
                  shape.  So far, it works like gangbusters.  While being somewhat heavy, it still
                  floats so would benefit from lead weight. 


                  This doesn't solve the edge issue, but it does make for quick & dirty
                  experimentation of foils.  There is no doubt that foiled rudders perform better
                  than flat rudders.  You can both see and hear the difference.

                  Philip T. Frohne

                  Hazelwood, MO USA
                  Uncle Johns Skiff

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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                • sirdarnell
                  Dean, Why wouldn t you glass the edges? David
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 28, 2010
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                    Dean, Why wouldn't you glass the edges?
                    David

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Herring" <dfharing@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > thanks, Reed.
                    > How many people glass their rudder and lee board? I've got a builder friend close by that always does but not the rounded edges so what's the advantage if you can't do the edges to protect them? Does glassing the flat portion add any strength or is it just dent and scratch protection?
                    > DEan
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@" <captreed@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32" or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure of is that they move up and down easily. If the tolerances are too tight a grain of sand might jam them.
                    > >
                    > > Reed
                    > > Ventura, CA
                    > >
                    >
                  • Dean Herring
                    I did end up glassing them - I just dread the edges when air bubbles or lift-ups occur. This time I had my wife help out by smoothing it all out with gloved
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 29, 2010
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                      I did end up glassing them - I just dread the edges when air bubbles or lift-ups occur. This time I had my wife help out by smoothing it all out with gloved fingers after I dabbed the epoxy on with a chip brush - it went quite well - glass behaved itself - i did have a choice of 6 oz or 4oz tape - works better with the thinner glass tape on the edges. Today I am doing the sides and should be done with it by Friday. Going to pour some lead for the rudder (my first time). Actually I got a small AL pan from Chinese food and smoothed that into the square hole in the rudder. I plan on making a holding groove in the AL pan - then pouring the lead into the pan - letting it cool - then removing it from the pan and epoxy the lead into the rudder - its a take on the AL foil technique. I will let you know how that goes in the next couple of days. BTW - I suppose my electric meter is spinning my money away as I apply these brooder lamps to the cockpit paint job overnight. Dean

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "sirdarnell" <sirdarnell@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dean, Why wouldn't you glass the edges?
                      > David
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Herring" <dfharing@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > thanks, Reed.
                      > > How many people glass their rudder and lee board? I've got a builder friend close by that always does but not the rounded edges so what's the advantage if you can't do the edges to protect them? Does glassing the flat portion add any strength or is it just dent and scratch protection?
                      > > DEan
                      > >
                      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "captreed@" <captreed@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Those tolerances are fine. The boat when sailing is so dynamic that 3/32" or 2.5mm cant to either foil will not make a difference. The only thing to be sure of is that they move up and down easily. If the tolerances are too tight a grain of sand might jam them.
                      > > >
                      > > > Reed
                      > > > Ventura, CA
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Philip Frohne
                      As to the drywall compound, it doesn t get wet.  It is fully encased in fiberglass.  And even if it does melt out, the glass has already formed the desired
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 30, 2010
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                        As to the drywall compound, it doesn't get wet.  It is fully encased in fiberglass.  And even if it does melt out, the glass has already formed the desired shape.  The only downside is that it will tend to float more.  The resultant 'pockets' would only an 1/8" deep, so it's not the end of the world if it does.

                        I did double glass the edges.  My remark was that this build technique didn't answer the question of how to protect the edges.  I don't really have that problem since my lakes all have mud bottoms.  Other than plowing a few furrows in the shallows, mine don't get much wear and tear.  Although, I snapped 2 rudders off a mile from the boat ramp until I discovered the reason - I was floating in only 6" of water.  Once the kick-up rudder dug far enough into the soft bottom, side wind loads snapped them off.  Now I have the shallows pretty well mapped in my head. 

                        I like carbon fiber for serious repairs and where strength is life or death.  Used with West epoxy and vacuum bagged, it cannot be beat.  Each fiber has 6,000psi strength.  It also costs a lot.  I bought a yard of it on eBay for $60 and hope it will last the rest of my life.  Even your basic small household repairs benefit from it.  I save all of the wayward strands for really small jobs.  I use carbon fiber on the front edges of anything that will take a beating.

                        Anyway, the drywall faired rudder worked all last season with no signs of failure.  Bondo will work as well, but I had 2 gals of mud left over from a bathroom remodel and figured it was worth a shot.  Bondo costs more and I'm cheap (except for that piece of carbon fiber which I needed 3" of to repair a broken chrome-moly racing bicycle frame).

                        Philip T. Frohne

                        Uncle Johns Skiff





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