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Twang and Alansboat

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  • prairiedog2332
    When discussing little fishing skiffs with guys down on the river I got thinking that Twang with a 5hp might be a fun boat and I already have the motor.
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 25, 2010
      When discussing little fishing skiffs with guys down on the river I got
      thinking that Twang with a 5hp might be a fun boat and I already have
      the motor.

      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/twang/index.htm

      There was an aluminum one there about that size - only wider of course -
      with a 9.9 4-stroke Honda but the owner was not there. Even had wheels
      atop the transom:-)

      The river averages maybe 1-2 km wide and the current maybe 2-3 knots or
      less in a lot of areas. But the boys shook their heads and told me that
      boat is too small. The guy used to truck-top, but now as a trailer -
      something Jim talks about a lot. The problem being when the valley winds
      blow upstream it can get pretty choppy even with 3 ft whitecaps at
      times.

      So that got me looking at Alansboat (plans are cheaper I see)

      http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/alansboat/index.htm

      My question being, will a 9.9 be able to get it up on a plane? Or even
      doing as well as the 5 hp on Twang seems to do? Jim just mentions a 20
      as the max recommended. A lot of the smaller fishing lakes here have 9.9
      as the max allowable.

      The thinking - it might - if you get the right prop, and I was referred
      to Dave Gerr's book on that subject. Any thoughts or comments from a
      person who has that boat, or one that size?

      Nels
    • KEN
      6-10 hp oughtta be plenty to scoot around pretty quick, 13-18-19 mph is what I d expect. little 6hp engines are usually set up for torque to move a good load
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 25, 2010
        6-10 hp oughtta be plenty to scoot around pretty quick, 13-18-19 mph is what I'd expect.
        little 6hp engines are usually set up for torque to move a good load onto plane, I see em all the time on 12-14' jonboats with 40-42" floors, zipping along with 2 persons and gear.
         it'll sure get ya out fishin with a friend or up a river to pitch a tent. in the real choppy stuff you'll want to slow down some for sure, and a couple extra inches of freeboard sure arent gonna hurt ya under power.. wind will blow ya around a little more maybe at rest. some spray rails down the sides would be good to swat some chop aside too.
         
        honesty.. put that rear bench as far forward as possible and still be comfortable with your hand at the engines tiller.. and plant the trolling motor battery way up front (house romex 12-3 works), you'll want some weight there (especially solo!). also get a look at the photos of that unicat 2.4's bench seat arrangement, longwise up the middle is great for passengers to shift weight fore/aft. I put a livewell (9x32) in/under my lengthwise seat, is 56" long.
        if its choppy and riding too light when solo, can always pop 50 lbs water in up there.
         
        http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm%c2%a0%c2%a0 -simplified and over optimistic...
        expect 70 to 80% of what that calc will try to tell ya. (regarding small boats anyhow)
        hull+engine+passengers+gear+fuel.. 800 lbs? 7hp,
        250 hull constant (is higher on smaller boats)  and it'll say 23
        but add some prop slip etc.. ( x .8) = 18.4  will be about realistic top speed.
         
        http://www.go-fast.com/Prop_Slip_Calculator.htm%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 -more detailed, more accurate...
        but you'll need to know gear ratio, prop pitch, rpm.
        between em both you'll know fairly well what to expect.
         
        my little fishin boat, just done re-working it, is a 13.5 ft older 'traveller' hull. V nose and nearly flat in back, very similar really. with forward and rear casting decks, up the center bench, replaced stringers and floor (easy 3 full sheets 1/2" ply) the boat itself probably a good 300-320 lbs.. fer sher much heavier. the 20hp nissan 4 stroke with 11 pitch solas prop shoved us around at a solid 25 mph by GPS. the two of us easy 410 lb together.. plus battery, trolling motor, 6 gal of fuel, etc. 320+410+120(eng)+50(fuel)+65(bat)..
        easy 1100 lb total. twang might come up 130 lbs built stiff, is my guess.
         
        long story short.. oh heck yeah, 9.9 oughtta shove 3 persons on plane, or 2 big guys, pretty well with 9-10 foot of flat near 4 foot wide, like twang. seen 6hp be plenty for 2 enuf times, but on something a lot smaller, 6hp sometimes barely gets 1 person planing
         
        the nissan 4 stroke btw, is same casing and lower unit as the 10-15-18hp.. sure it says 20, but performance is really about same as a 10 when you get down to whats really what.
        the 10 comes with an 8.5 pitch and about 1/2" smaller diameter is all. the 20 comes with a 10 pitch and I went to 11.. worked out perfectly according to prop slip calc, WOT  right about 5500-5600 rpm. 5700 wouldda been hitting 26 mph and the rev limiter will kick in at 6100, who needs a tach when ya got a GPS and the online prop slip calc!
         
        the reservoir was really busy here sunday, big boats hauling skiiers and tubes, sometimes 2' choppy wakes/mush etc. wind was 10-15 mph. this 13.5 ft hull got tested hard on its first day out and it wasnt scary at all. floor is same width too.. 48-49". the traveller fiberglass hull about 3x the weight and I'm running 20hp on it, but its VERY similar to twang. I think the guys saying "too small" are incorrect about twang. a center V notch cut in the forward bottom would give it a little curve up to meet the 2 forward panels, that transition IS a bit abrupt, thinking V notch like a pinch boat.. http://www.svensons.com/boat/?f=HydroPlanes/minimax/MinimaxPage48.jpg%c2%a0 a similar cut might be an easy enuf improv for that hard transition, it'd pull a little arc and curve into front bottom.
         
        alansboat comes up a lot heavier, heavier ply for about 3' longer I'd guess, but is 3' more planing surface can be adding another person aboard with same power, maybe back off on pitch 1/2 or 1 at worst, is only a little loss of top speed really, if you have to.

        --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:


        From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
        Subject: [Michalak] Twang and Alansboat
        To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 6:59 PM


         



        When discussing little fishing skiffs with guys down on the river I got
        thinking that Twang with a 5hp might be a fun boat and I already have
        the motor.

        http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/twang/index.htm

        There was an aluminum one there about that size - only wider of course -
        with a 9.9 4-stroke Honda but the owner was not there. Even had wheels
        atop the transom:-)

        The river averages maybe 1-2 km wide and the current maybe 2-3 knots or
        less in a lot of areas. But the boys shook their heads and told me that
        boat is too small. The guy used to truck-top, but now as a trailer -
        something Jim talks about a lot. The problem being when the valley winds
        blow upstream it can get pretty choppy even with 3 ft whitecaps at
        times.

        So that got me looking at Alansboat (plans are cheaper I see)

        http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/alansboat/index.htm

        My question being, will a 9.9 be able to get it up on a plane? Or even
        doing as well as the 5 hp on Twang seems to do? Jim just mentions a 20
        as the max recommended. A lot of the smaller fishing lakes here have 9.9
        as the max allowable.

        The thinking - it might - if you get the right prop, and I was referred
        to Dave Gerr's book on that subject. Any thoughts or comments from a
        person who has that boat, or one that size?

        Nels











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • prairiedog2332
        Ken, Great information - thanks - just what I was wondering about. I don t really have any 1/4 plywood that I would trust in a power boat. But I do have 3/8
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 25, 2010
          Ken,

          Great information - thanks - just what I was wondering about.

          I don't really have any 1/4" plywood that I would trust in a power boat.
          But I do have 3/8" and 5/8" MDO, so I think maybe Alansboat is the way
          to go.

          Not really needing to go that fast but thinking if it planes it would
          maybe burn less fuel than going displacement speeds, even with a smaller
          motor?

          A 6-8 hp 4-stroke might just do it. That would be ideal for use on my
          sail boat as well and is about the smallest size that comes with an
          alternator.

          Nobody uses trolling motors here it seems. They all seem to have
          trolling plates on their outboards.

          http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id\
          =0000918010961a&navCount=0&podId=0000918&parentId=cat21370&masterpathid=\
          &navAction=jump&cmCat=null-cat21370_TGP&catalogCode=IA&rid=0123456789&pa\
          rentType=index&indexId=cat21370&hasJS=true

          I am told you have to go really slow for Chinook salmon which is the
          main attraction. I just recently moved here so am still larnin'

          http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/river/thompson.phtml

          Nels





          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, KEN <rekkamurd@...> wrote:
          >
          > 6-10 hp oughtta be plenty to scoot around pretty quick, 13-18-19 mph
          is what I'd expect.
          > little 6hp engines are usually set up for torque to move a good load
          onto plane, I see em all the time on 12-14' jonboats with 40-42" floors,
          zipping along with 2 persons and gear.
          > it'll sure get ya out fishin with a friend or up a river to pitch a
          tent. in the real choppy stuff you'll want to slow down some for sure,
          and a couple extra inches of freeboard sure arent gonna hurt ya under
          power.. wind will blow ya around a little more maybe at rest. some spray
          rails down the sides would be good to swat some chop aside too.
          >
          > honesty.. put that rear bench as far forward as possible and still be
          comfortable with your hand at the engines tiller.. and plant the
          trolling motor battery way up front (house romex 12-3 works), you'll
          want some weight there (especially solo!). also get a look at the photos
          of that unicat 2.4's bench seat arrangement, longwise up the middle is
          great for passengers to shift weight fore/aft. I put a livewell (9x32)
          in/under my lengthwise seat, is 56" long.
          > if its choppy and riding too light when solo, can always pop 50 lbs
          water in up there.
          >
          > http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm -simplified and
          over optimistic...
          > expect 70 to 80% of what that calc will try to tell ya. (regarding
          small boats anyhow)
          > hull+engine+passengers+gear+fuel.. 800 lbs? 7hp,
          > 250 hull constant (is higher on smaller boats) and it'll say 23
          > but add some prop slip etc.. ( x .8) = 18.4 will be about realistic
          top speed.
          >
          > http://www.go-fast.com/Prop_Slip_Calculator.htm -more detailed,
          more accurate...
          > but you'll need to know gear ratio, prop pitch, rpm.
          > between em both you'll know fairly well what to expect.
          >
          > my little fishin boat, just done re-working it, is a 13.5 ft older
          'traveller' hull. V nose and nearly flat in back, very similar really.
          with forward and rear casting decks, up the center bench, replaced
          stringers and floor (easy 3 full sheets 1/2" ply) the boat itself
          probably a good 300-320 lbs.. fer sher much heavier. the 20hp nissan 4
          stroke with 11 pitch solas prop shoved us around at a solid 25 mph by
          GPS. the two of us easy 410 lb together.. plus battery, trolling motor,
          6 gal of fuel, etc. 320+410+120(eng)+50(fuel)+65(bat)..
          > easy 1100 lb total. twang might come up 130 lbs built stiff, is my
          guess.
          >
          > long story short.. oh heck yeah, 9.9 oughtta shove 3 persons on plane,
          or 2 big guys, pretty well with 9-10 foot of flat near 4 foot wide, like
          twang. seen 6hp be plenty for 2 enuf times, but on something a lot
          smaller, 6hp sometimes barely gets 1 person planing
          >
          > the nissan 4 stroke btw, is same casing and lower unit as the
          10-15-18hp.. sure it says 20, but performance is really about same as a
          10 when you get down to whats really what.
          > the 10 comes with an 8.5 pitch and about 1/2" smaller diameter is all.
          the 20 comes with a 10 pitch and I went to 11.. worked out perfectly
          according to prop slip calc, WOT right about 5500-5600 rpm. 5700
          wouldda been hitting 26 mph and the rev limiter will kick in at 6100,
          who needs a tach when ya got a GPS and the online prop slip calc!
          >
          > the reservoir was really busy here sunday, big boats hauling skiiers
          and tubes, sometimes 2' choppy wakes/mush etc. wind was 10-15 mph. this
          13.5 ft hull got tested hard on its first day out and it wasnt scary at
          all. floor is same width too.. 48-49". the traveller fiberglass hull
          about 3x the weight and I'm running 20hp on it, but its VERY similar to
          twang. I think the guys saying "too small" are incorrect about twang. a
          center V notch cut in the forward bottom would give it a little curve up
          to meet the 2 forward panels, that transition IS a bit abrupt, thinking
          V notch like a pinch boat..
          http://www.svensons.com/boat/?f=HydroPlanes/minimax/MinimaxPage48.jpg a
          similar cut might be an easy enuf improv for that hard transition, it'd
          pull a little arc and curve into front bottom.
          >
          > alansboat comes up a lot heavier, heavier ply for about 3' longer I'd
          guess, but is 3' more planing surface can be adding another person
          aboard with same power, maybe back off on pitch 1/2 or 1 at worst, is
          only a little loss of top speed really, if you have to.
          >
          > --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prairiedog2332 nelsarv@...
          > Subject: [Michalak] Twang and Alansboat
          > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 6:59 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > When discussing little fishing skiffs with guys down on the river I
          got
          > thinking that Twang with a 5hp might be a fun boat and I already have
          > the motor.
          >
          > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/twang/index.htm
          >
          > There was an aluminum one there about that size - only wider of course
          -
          > with a 9.9 4-stroke Honda but the owner was not there. Even had wheels
          > atop the transom:-)
          >
          > The river averages maybe 1-2 km wide and the current maybe 2-3 knots
          or
          > less in a lot of areas. But the boys shook their heads and told me
          that
          > boat is too small. The guy used to truck-top, but now as a trailer -
          > something Jim talks about a lot. The problem being when the valley
          winds
          > blow upstream it can get pretty choppy even with 3 ft whitecaps at
          > times.
          >
          > So that got me looking at Alansboat (plans are cheaper I see)
          >
          > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/alansboat/index.htm
          >
          > My question being, will a 9.9 be able to get it up on a plane? Or even
          > doing as well as the 5 hp on Twang seems to do? Jim just mentions a 20
          > as the max recommended. A lot of the smaller fishing lakes here have
          9.9
          > as the max allowable.
          >
          > The thinking - it might - if you get the right prop, and I was
          referred
          > to Dave Gerr's book on that subject. Any thoughts or comments from a
          > person who has that boat, or one that size?
          >
          > Nels
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • KEN
          I d think 5/8 in a bottom is kinda overkill on the weight, but thats me.. you re talking about river is getting into current, sometimes shallows and rocks,
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
            I'd think 5/8 in a bottom is kinda overkill on the weight, but thats me..
            you're talking about river is getting into current, sometimes shallows and rocks,
            then theres the who knows what kinda logs you might not see!
             
            usually, something smaller and lighter is getting its strength from seat bulkheads across it on the inside and like "inside chine logs" at their joints, then runners lengthwise up the bottom on the outside, is making a lattice that encases the thinner ply floor.
            I've built a couple like that and its pretty darn strong!  I'm a fan of inside chine logs and a couple layers fiberglass and resin to seams, and resin coating whole outside of a hull..
            first coats well thinned with acetone to help it penetrate-grab into the wood.
            where I'm at, www.fiberglasssite.com is best prices and freshest resins.
            I'm also a fan of epoxy-enamel concrete floor paint for its toughness, but at fiberglasssite they just started carrying white gelcoat for 60 bucks a gallon, the stuff is even tougher and thicker than the floor paint. for sure gotta have something to protect resin on wood from sunlights effects. acetone thinned resin grabs in a whole lot better and far less likely to want to come loose anywhere. sure is cheeper than epoxy!
             
            dont get me wrong, I can see outside chine logs are GREAT for simplifying a build, also great if youre ever anticipating to have to replace a bottoms sheeting for whatever reason, and for protecting a chine joint from bumping into something. good stuff for a utility boat thats going to see some abuse, no doubt about it.
             
            this is me again, thoughts on boat.. I'd go twang, maybe even stretched a foot, all 3/8" and latticed in, as mentioned above. with 2x2 (or 1-1/2 x 3) oak or similar hardwood as keel runner and 2 1x4 oakish runners 10-11" parallel from it.. theyed take the brunt of about anything floating, and theyed also be trying to lift the hull and letting some air slip thru. center keel runner tapering down to 1/2" the last 12-14" to transom, for "prop fill" reasons. full height to the end could make some turbulent bubbles and have ya prop cavitating out. its a flat bottom boat and theyre -going to- pound.. wide runners can help soften that pounding a bit, moreso if you manage to get a little air cushioning happening between em.. when it gets TOO rough then you probably wouldnt notice that at all either, but.. in smoother stuff, it could lessen some drag/grab and get ya there a little easier. jonboats kinda try for similar with the round beads pressed in, but its
            moreso about stiffening the thinner sheet aluminum.
             
            I'm of the opinion that "fast" boats are like airframes, you need the structural integrity and rigidity, but overall, the lighter the better. a V hull is gonna have your lower unit poking deeper into the water, is bad news in shallower stuff, its going to want more power to get on plane than something flat, and will tip around more at rest.. but they sure arent going to pound as badly in anything rough. for what youre talking about as far as conditions, I might look at something maybe similar to john weselfords 'trover' http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm%c2%a0or halfway between that and http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/crd/index.htm%c2%a0 a 'clarence river dory'
            that inset transom helping some driver weight forward for planing, the 2 resultant tails behaving as trim tabs or afterplanes to help keep the nose down too running in rougher stuff may be a little less likely to want to lift up and pound down.
             
            a trover type IS going to run deeper with your outboards lower unit. a V hull will usually involve more framing work and weight...
             
            I like bowdidges http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/bowdidge/mushulu14/index.htm
            -guy is awful proud of his darn plans tho!  it isnt exactly "rocket science" to make seat bulkheads as your frames for the keel and chines, for producing a small shallow V skiff type hull. no disrespect intended there, its a good lookin boat! (pricey on plans tho)
             
            the duckskiff.. again flat bottom, but its a freebie design.
            http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/lewis/duckskiff/index.htm
             
            my last "long winded note" I mentioned the V curve pinch of the little "MiniMax" pumpkinseed hydroplane, if you look at that design a little, that pinch is followed through with a slightly curved bottom right on through to the transom. a couple things happen with that.. curved ply gains some rigidity/structure over the same sheet being flat, it'll lift that outside chine when cornering is far less likely to want to ever grab and roll.. 2" of convex will show 3-4" at that outside chine. that rounded shape is also going to mitigate some flat slab pounding action in wakes and chop, less hammering-stress-flexing to chine joints.
            I did it to a small lightweight skiff I built a couple years back, it was as simple as crowning the seat bulkheads where they meet the floor, but I was only pushing 3/4, then 7/8 for it being a little wider at forward seat rear bulkhead..  then 5/8 and 1/2" to the rear seat bulkheads.. transom was still flat. this was a narrow floored 10-1/2 ft skiff from "Hannu's Boatyard" site, and was only 1/4" luan panel, so not much a challenge. I'm sure the floor felt less mushy than if it were dead flat, but this was a little skiff for trolling motor speeds.
             
            I'm thinking the right cut-n-pinch to what you're looking at, is going to soften that hard angled transition, following through with crowned seat bulkheads and transom...
            now we're talking minor modification adjustment and improvement on Jims design...
            that really just might be a better mousetrap overall, HEY JIM !!!
             
            it'd pinch in a slight V point, roll that front edge of the sheet upwards slightly, put some convex into what was dead flat.. adding rigidity and safety, mitigate some pounding..
            and really not be straying very far at all from the original design or make the building more difficult.
            I cant imagine pushing 2-1/2" or 3" of arc across 45-47" width into 3/8 ply being difficult.
             
            - theres my .02 worth of "creative visualizations", but I dont know anything about hull designing softwares, seat bulkhead placements, or what kind of arcs would be needed to go from 3-4" forward to 2" at transom, or what kind of notch size/shape in front for a  2-3" arc straight on through.. but intuitively it sure sounds like a good modification overall..
            I'm not at all intending to be critical, its like af4 giving birth to af4b..
            maybe twang can give birth to  a twang-ER for "extra rough" idk  :)
             
            theres sure more than one idea mentioned above! the pinch and convex, the hard runners, and an inset motor board too. I'm not a designer, but have built scads of model boats, and have built 6 small boats now too (did I ever mention my ability to babble endlessly?).
            I know the forward seat bulkhead nearer that pinch will probably want a little more V-ish shape than what'd be a simple arc too, or straight line bottom edge and like struts to the floor where bottom runners will land..  hmmm.. fun question. that V pinch would also place the center bottom runner a little bit further back aft of the pinch..
             
            I know an inset motorboard is also going to transfer power moreso into the rear bench seat, that takes away needing a beefy-heavy full width transom. with my little fishin boat I went with just 5/8 ply and a 4" perimeter ring of same, then tied into the rear thwart bench and floor.. lots lighter than 1-3/4" solid (and waterlogged!) ply that was there before. it has me picturing the engine 10-12" forward on the req'd 15 degree motorboard, and nearer vertical transom tails ending 3-4" past the prop.. where if the lower unit struck something and kicked up, even turned, its still not going to "chainsaw" anything.
             
            obvious I like this twang concept..  OOPS!
             
             
             
             
             
             

            --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:


            From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
            Subject: [Michalak] Re: Twang and Alansboat
            To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 11:32 PM


             



            Ken,

            Great information - thanks - just what I was wondering about.

            I don't really have any 1/4" plywood that I would trust in a power boat.
            But I do have 3/8" and 5/8" MDO, so I think maybe Alansboat is the way
            to go.

            Not really needing to go that fast but thinking if it planes it would
            maybe burn less fuel than going displacement speeds, even with a smaller
            motor?

            A 6-8 hp 4-stroke might just do it. That would be ideal for use on my
            sail boat as well and is about the smallest size that comes with an
            alternator.

            Nobody uses trolling motors here it seems. They all seem to have
            trolling plates on their outboards.

            http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id\
            =0000918010961a&navCount=0&podId=0000918&parentId=cat21370&masterpathid=\
            &navAction=jump&cmCat=null-cat21370_TGP&catalogCode=IA&rid=0123456789&pa\
            rentType=index&indexId=cat21370&hasJS=true

            I am told you have to go really slow for Chinook salmon which is the
            main attraction. I just recently moved here so am still larnin'

            http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/angling/river/thompson.phtml

            Nels

            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, KEN <rekkamurd@...> wrote:
            >
            > 6-10 hp oughtta be plenty to scoot around pretty quick, 13-18-19 mph
            is what I'd expect.
            > little 6hp engines are usually set up for torque to move a good load
            onto plane, I see em all the time on 12-14' jonboats with 40-42" floors,
            zipping along with 2 persons and gear.
            > it'll sure get ya out fishin with a friend or up a river to pitch a
            tent. in the real choppy stuff you'll want to slow down some for sure,
            and a couple extra inches of freeboard sure arent gonna hurt ya under
            power.. wind will blow ya around a little more maybe at rest. some spray
            rails down the sides would be good to swat some chop aside too.
            >
            > honesty.. put that rear bench as far forward as possible and still be
            comfortable with your hand at the engines tiller.. and plant the
            trolling motor battery way up front (house romex 12-3 works), you'll
            want some weight there (especially solo!). also get a look at the photos
            of that unicat 2.4's bench seat arrangement, longwise up the middle is
            great for passengers to shift weight fore/aft. I put a livewell (9x32)
            in/under my lengthwise seat, is 56" long.
            > if its choppy and riding too light when solo, can always pop 50 lbs
            water in up there.
            >
            > http://www.go-fast.com/boat_speed_predictions.htm -simplified and
            over optimistic...
            > expect 70 to 80% of what that calc will try to tell ya. (regarding
            small boats anyhow)
            > hull+engine+passengers+gear+fuel.. 800 lbs? 7hp,
            > 250 hull constant (is higher on smaller boats) and it'll say 23
            > but add some prop slip etc.. ( x .8) = 18.4 will be about realistic
            top speed.
            >
            > http://www.go-fast.com/Prop_Slip_Calculator.htm -more detailed,
            more accurate...
            > but you'll need to know gear ratio, prop pitch, rpm.
            > between em both you'll know fairly well what to expect.
            >
            > my little fishin boat, just done re-working it, is a 13.5 ft older
            'traveller' hull. V nose and nearly flat in back, very similar really.
            with forward and rear casting decks, up the center bench, replaced
            stringers and floor (easy 3 full sheets 1/2" ply) the boat itself
            probably a good 300-320 lbs.. fer sher much heavier. the 20hp nissan 4
            stroke with 11 pitch solas prop shoved us around at a solid 25 mph by
            GPS. the two of us easy 410 lb together.. plus battery, trolling motor,
            6 gal of fuel, etc. 320+410+120(eng)+50(fuel)+65(bat)..
            > easy 1100 lb total. twang might come up 130 lbs built stiff, is my
            guess.
            >
            > long story short.. oh heck yeah, 9.9 oughtta shove 3 persons on plane,
            or 2 big guys, pretty well with 9-10 foot of flat near 4 foot wide, like
            twang. seen 6hp be plenty for 2 enuf times, but on something a lot
            smaller, 6hp sometimes barely gets 1 person planing
            >
            > the nissan 4 stroke btw, is same casing and lower unit as the
            10-15-18hp.. sure it says 20, but performance is really about same as a
            10 when you get down to whats really what.
            > the 10 comes with an 8.5 pitch and about 1/2" smaller diameter is all.
            the 20 comes with a 10 pitch and I went to 11.. worked out perfectly
            according to prop slip calc, WOT right about 5500-5600 rpm. 5700
            wouldda been hitting 26 mph and the rev limiter will kick in at 6100,
            who needs a tach when ya got a GPS and the online prop slip calc!
            >
            > the reservoir was really busy here sunday, big boats hauling skiiers
            and tubes, sometimes 2' choppy wakes/mush etc. wind was 10-15 mph. this
            13.5 ft hull got tested hard on its first day out and it wasnt scary at
            all. floor is same width too.. 48-49". the traveller fiberglass hull
            about 3x the weight and I'm running 20hp on it, but its VERY similar to
            twang. I think the guys saying "too small" are incorrect about twang. a
            center V notch cut in the forward bottom would give it a little curve up
            to meet the 2 forward panels, that transition IS a bit abrupt, thinking
            V notch like a pinch boat..
            http://www.svensons.com/boat/?f=HydroPlanes/minimax/MinimaxPage48.jpg a
            similar cut might be an easy enuf improv for that hard transition, it'd
            pull a little arc and curve into front bottom.
            >
            > alansboat comes up a lot heavier, heavier ply for about 3' longer I'd
            guess, but is 3' more planing surface can be adding another person
            aboard with same power, maybe back off on pitch 1/2 or 1 at worst, is
            only a little loss of top speed really, if you have to.
            >
            > --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: prairiedog2332 nelsarv@...
            > Subject: [Michalak] Twang and Alansboat
            > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 6:59 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > When discussing little fishing skiffs with guys down on the river I
            got
            > thinking that Twang with a 5hp might be a fun boat and I already have
            > the motor.
            >
            > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/twang/index.htm
            >
            > There was an aluminum one there about that size - only wider of course
            -
            > with a 9.9 4-stroke Honda but the owner was not there. Even had wheels
            > atop the transom:-)
            >
            > The river averages maybe 1-2 km wide and the current maybe 2-3 knots
            or
            > less in a lot of areas. But the boys shook their heads and told me
            that
            > boat is too small. The guy used to truck-top, but now as a trailer -
            > something Jim talks about a lot. The problem being when the valley
            winds
            > blow upstream it can get pretty choppy even with 3 ft whitecaps at
            > times.
            >
            > So that got me looking at Alansboat (plans are cheaper I see)
            >
            > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/alansboat/index.htm
            >
            > My question being, will a 9.9 be able to get it up on a plane? Or even
            > doing as well as the 5 hp on Twang seems to do? Jim just mentions a 20
            > as the max recommended. A lot of the smaller fishing lakes here have
            9.9
            > as the max allowable.
            >
            > The thinking - it might - if you get the right prop, and I was
            referred
            > to Dave Gerr's book on that subject. Any thoughts or comments from a
            > person who has that boat, or one that size?
            >
            > Nels
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >











            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • prairiedog2332
            Fred, Believe it or not I understood everything you said. But I had to read it once, go out and mow the lawn and then come back in and read it a couple more
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
              Fred,

              Believe it or not I understood everything you said. But I had to read it
              once, go out and mow the lawn and then come back in and read it a couple
              more times:0)

              I guess a person could lengthen Twang a ft. or also shorten Alansboat
              as well. You will notice that he gave it those dimensions to make the
              optimum use of 4X8 sheets. 4 ft width on the bottom and 16' for the
              topsides. He also mentions that when planing the transition zone
              forward might be completely above the water anyway. But I can see adding
              spray rails might be a good idea when not quite planing.

              The reason I mentioned 5/8" is first, that is what I have and also MDO
              does not come in 1/2". But if I add the bottom runners and seat
              bulkheads as you suggest then one might find it stiff enough with using
              3/8" on the bottom as well, especially if one can get some pinch forward
              in the transition area and round the bottom just enough to get it even
              stiffer. More work but if using some good thick epoxy fillets and tape
              along the seat bulkheads, should result in a strong monoque shape. I
              want to avoid extra framing inside to make it easier to clean.

              I also like the idea of the inset motor mount with a sponson on each
              side, for reasons you mention. That is also a great idea if you have to
              work on the motor - having that extra flotation on each side. Jim talks
              about this in his Dani Jay design. Says the inset should be a full 2ft.
              wide and open at the back so nothing will get "chain sawed". The
              sponsons would then be 1 ft. wide each side and filled with flotation.
              Apparently this "shortens" your hull by however far you insert the
              insert, so maybe go with the full sized Alansboat after all?

              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dani_jay/index.htm

              Mark Bowdidge is a great designer and a really good guy. Looking at his
              horsepower vs: speed table you might get 12 knots or slightly higher
              with 10 hp on a 15 ft. hull. That would be plenty fast for me. I think
              Alansboat should plane almost as easily as a jonboat with the added
              benefit of having that vee section going against a chop. Once up on a
              plane one should be able to throttle back a bit as well when the going
              is smooth which is how it usually is on the river here.

              Maybe go downstream first if the wind is coming upstream and then you
              have the added flotation of the sponsons coming back home. The best time
              to fish is early in the morning anyway and the winds don't usually kick
              up a fuss until after lunch. If they are from the east then go upstream
              as the east winds flatten any waves anyway. It is amazing to observe the
              difference, and river is right across the road. The only obstructions
              are the sandbars and very seldon see any trees coming down:-)

              Nels


              --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, KEN <rekkamurd@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'd think 5/8 in a bottom is kinda overkill on the weight, but thats
              me..
              > you're talking about river is getting into current, sometimes shallows
              and rocks,
              > then theres the who knows what kinda logs you might not see!
              > Â
              > usually, something smaller and lighter is getting its strength from
              seat bulkheads across it on the inside and like "inside chine logs" at
              their joints, then runners lengthwise up the bottom on the outside, is
              making a lattice that encases the thinner ply floor.
              > I've built a couple like that and its pretty darn strong! I'm
              a fan of inside chine logs and a couple layers fiberglass and resin to
              seams, and resin coating whole outside of a hull..
              > first coats well thinned with acetone to help it penetrate-grab
              into the wood.
              > where I'm at, www.fiberglasssite.com is best prices and freshest
              resins.
              > I'm also a fan of epoxy-enamel concrete floor paint for its toughness,
              but at fiberglasssite they just started carrying white gelcoat for 60
              bucks a gallon, the stuff is even tougher and thicker than the floor
              paint. for sure gotta have something to protect resin on wood from
              sunlights effects. acetone thinned resin grabs in a whole lot better and
              far less likely to want to come loose anywhere. sure is cheeper than
              epoxy!
              > Â
              > dont get me wrong, I can see outside chine logs are GREAT for
              simplifying a build, also great if youre ever anticipating to have to
              replace a bottoms sheeting for whatever reason, and for protecting a
              chine joint from bumping into something. good stuff for a utility boat
              thats going to see some abuse, no doubt about it.
              > Â
              > this is me again, thoughts on boat.. I'd go twang, maybe even
              stretched a foot, all 3/8" and latticed in, as mentioned above. with 2x2
              (or 1-1/2 x 3) oak or similar hardwood as keel runner and 2 1x4 oakish
              runners 10-11" parallel from it.. theyed take the brunt of about
              anything floating, and theyed also be trying to lift the hull and
              letting some air slip thru. center keel runner tapering down to 1/2" the
              last 12-14" to transom, for "prop fill" reasons. full height to the end
              could make some turbulent bubbles and have ya prop cavitating out.Â
              its a flat bottom boat and theyre -going to- pound.. wide runnersÂ
              can help soften that pounding a bit, moreso if you manage to get a
              little air cushioning happening between em.. when it gets TOO rough then
              you probably wouldnt notice that at all either, but.. in smoother stuff,
              it could lessen some drag/grab and get ya there a little easier.
              jonboats kinda try for similar with the round beads pressed in, but its
              > moreso about stiffening the thinner sheet aluminum.
              > Â
              > I'm of the opinion that "fast" boats are like airframes, you need the
              structural integrity and rigidity, but overall, the lighter the better.
              a V hull is gonna have your lower unit poking deeper into the water, is
              bad news in shallower stuff, its going to want more power to get on
              plane than something flat, and will tip around more at rest.. but they
              sure arent going to pound as badly in anything rough. for what youre
              talking about as far as conditions, I might look at something maybe
              similar to john weselfords 'trover'
              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm%c3%82 or halfway
              between that and http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/crd/index.htm%c3%82
              a 'clarence river dory'
              > that inset transom helping some driver weight forward for planing,
              the 2 resultant tails behaving as trim tabs or afterplanes to help keep
              the nose down too running in rougher stuff may be a little less likely
              to want to lift up and pound down.
              > Â
              > a trover type IS going to run deeper with your outboards lower unit. a
              V hull will usually involve more framing work and weight...
              > Â
              > I like bowdidges
              http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/bowdidge/mushulu14/index.htm
              > -guy is awful proud of his darn plans tho! it isnt exactly
              "rocket science" to make seat bulkheads as your frames for the keel and
              chines, for producing a small shallow V skiff type hull. no disrespect
              intended there, its a good lookin boat! (pricey on plans tho)
              > Â
              > the duckskiff.. again flat bottom, but its a freebie design.
              > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/lewis/duckskiff/index.htm
              > Â
              > my last "long winded note" I mentioned the V curve pinch of the little
              "MiniMax" pumpkinseed hydroplane, if you look at that design a little,
              that pinch is followed through with a slightly curved bottom right on
              through to the transom. a couple things happen with that.. curved ply
              gains some rigidity/structure over the same sheet being flat, it'll lift
              that outside chine when cornering is far less likely to want to ever
              grab and roll.. 2" of convex will show 3-4" at that outside chine. that
              rounded shape is also going to mitigate some flat slab pounding action
              in wakes and chop, less hammering-stress-flexing to chine joints.
              > I did it to a small lightweight skiff I built a couple years back, it
              was as simple as crowning the seat bulkheads where they meet the floor,
              but I was only pushing 3/4, then 7/8 for it being a little wider at
              forward seat rear bulkhead.. then 5/8 and 1/2" to the rear seat
              bulkheads.. transom was still flat. this was a narrow floored 10-1/2 ft
              skiff from "Hannu's Boatyard" site, and was only 1/4" luan panel, so not
              much a challenge. I'm sure the floor felt less mushy than if it were
              dead flat, but this was a little skiff for trolling motor speeds.
              > Â
              > I'm thinking the right cut-n-pinch to what you're looking at, is going
              to soften that hard angled transition, following through with crowned
              seat bulkheads and transom...
              > now we're talking minor modification adjustment and improvement on
              Jims design...
              > that really just might be a better mousetrap overall, HEY JIM !!!
              > Â
              > it'd pinch in a slight V point, roll that front edge of the sheet
              upwards slightly, put some convex into what was dead flat.. adding
              rigidity and safety, mitigate some pounding..
              > and really not be straying very far at all from the original design or
              make the building more difficult.
              > I cant imagine pushing 2-1/2" or 3" of arc across 45-47" width into
              3/8 ply being difficult.
              > Â
              > - theres my .02 worth of "creative visualizations", but I dont
              know anything about hull designing softwares, seat bulkhead placements,
              or what kind of arcs would be needed to go from 3-4" forward to 2" at
              transom, or what kind of notch size/shape in front for a 2-3" arc
              straight on through.. but intuitively it sure sounds like a good
              modification overall..
              > I'm not at all intending to be critical, its like af4 giving birth to
              af4b..
              > maybe twang can give birth to a twang-ER for "extra rough"
              idk :)
              > Â
              > theres sure more than one idea mentioned above! the pinch and
              convex, the hard runners, and an inset motor board too. I'm not a
              designer, but have built scads of model boats, and have built 6 small
              boats now too (did I ever mention my ability to babble endlessly?).
              > I know the forward seat bulkhead nearer that pinch will probably want
              a little more V-ish shape than what'd be a simple arc too, orÂ
              straight line bottom edge and like struts to the floor where bottom
              runners will land.. hmmm.. fun question. that V pinch would also
              place the center bottom runner a little bit further back aft of the
              pinch..
              > Â
              > I know an inset motorboard is also going to transfer power moreso into
              the rear bench seat, that takes away needing a beefy-heavy full width
              transom. with my little fishin boat I went with just 5/8 ply and a 4"
              perimeter ring of same, then tied into the rear thwart bench and floor..
              lots lighter than 1-3/4" solid (and waterlogged!) ply that was there
              before. it has me picturing the engine 10-12" forward on the req'd 15
              degree motorboard, and nearer vertical transom tails ending 3-4"
              past the prop.. where if the lower unit struck something and kicked up,
              even turned, its still not going to "chainsaw" anything.
              > Â
              > obvious I like this twang concept.. OOPS!
            • KEN
              cool and yup.. the pinch and some arc thru behind it, seat bulkheads, bottom runners, inset transom.. it d be a different boat than what twang is, but
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 26, 2010
                cool and yup..
                the pinch and some arc thru behind it, seat bulkheads, bottom runners, inset transom..
                it'd be a different boat than what twang is, but improved/refined for rougher stuff I'd think.
                I'd know I'd sure buy that "twang II" idea/plan, think it'd be a winner. (HEY JIM!!)
                 
                for sure I like Bowdidges mushulu 14.. look again, thats 12 kts at 5hp, and about 18 kts at 10hp.. or about 19-20 mph. but at what kind of load? 2 persons? 3 persons?
                the only thing I didnt like was that plans pricetag, its full sheets with the shipping paid, but that 120 bucks sure would go a long way in materials!
                 
                spray rails are also good if planing and theres some chop, especially in fall and spring that spray stuff can make ya cold in a hurry. 5/8 is great stuff doubling up for transom or motorboard, bench seat tops, a forward casting deck.. theres some weight up front for days out solo.
                 
                inset motor board like I'm thinking.. for sure loses about a sq ft of the hull's overall buoyancy, but not really anything from the length of the planing surface. you mentioned 6-8 hp and going bigger heavier will probably hurt more than help I'd think. power wise thats just about right for lighter craft and 2 aboard, where bigger and heavier might get barging rather than boating.. how's you tim allen impersonations? I know I'd be grumbling and grunting about needing more power if it didnt reasonably fly with 2 aboard!


                --- On Thu, 8/26/10, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:


                From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                Subject: [Michalak] Re: Twang and Alansboat
                To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 4:07 PM


                 



                Fred,

                Believe it or not I understood everything you said. But I had to read it
                once, go out and mow the lawn and then come back in and read it a couple
                more times:0)

                I guess a person could lengthen Twang a ft. or also shorten Alansboat
                as well. You will notice that he gave it those dimensions to make the
                optimum use of 4X8 sheets. 4 ft width on the bottom and 16' for the
                topsides. He also mentions that when planing the transition zone
                forward might be completely above the water anyway. But I can see adding
                spray rails might be a good idea when not quite planing.

                The reason I mentioned 5/8" is first, that is what I have and also MDO
                does not come in 1/2". But if I add the bottom runners and seat
                bulkheads as you suggest then one might find it stiff enough with using
                3/8" on the bottom as well, especially if one can get some pinch forward
                in the transition area and round the bottom just enough to get it even
                stiffer. More work but if using some good thick epoxy fillets and tape
                along the seat bulkheads, should result in a strong monoque shape. I
                want to avoid extra framing inside to make it easier to clean.

                I also like the idea of the inset motor mount with a sponson on each
                side, for reasons you mention. That is also a great idea if you have to
                work on the motor - having that extra flotation on each side. Jim talks
                about this in his Dani Jay design. Says the inset should be a full 2ft.
                wide and open at the back so nothing will get "chain sawed". The
                sponsons would then be 1 ft. wide each side and filled with flotation.
                Apparently this "shortens" your hull by however far you insert the
                insert, so maybe go with the full sized Alansboat after all?

                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/dani_jay/index.htm

                Mark Bowdidge is a great designer and a really good guy. Looking at his
                horsepower vs: speed table you might get 12 knots or slightly higher
                with 10 hp on a 15 ft. hull. That would be plenty fast for me. I think
                Alansboat should plane almost as easily as a jonboat with the added
                benefit of having that vee section going against a chop. Once up on a
                plane one should be able to throttle back a bit as well when the going
                is smooth which is how it usually is on the river here.

                Maybe go downstream first if the wind is coming upstream and then you
                have the added flotation of the sponsons coming back home. The best time
                to fish is early in the morning anyway and the winds don't usually kick
                up a fuss until after lunch. If they are from the east then go upstream
                as the east winds flatten any waves anyway. It is amazing to observe the
                difference, and river is right across the road. The only obstructions
                are the sandbars and very seldon see any trees coming down:-)

                Nels

                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, KEN <rekkamurd@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'd think 5/8 in a bottom is kinda overkill on the weight, but thats
                me..
                > you're talking about river is getting into current, sometimes shallows
                and rocks,
                > then theres the who knows what kinda logs you might not see!
                > Â
                > usually, something smaller and lighter is getting its strength from
                seat bulkheads across it on the inside and like "inside chine logs" at
                their joints, then runners lengthwise up the bottom on the outside, is
                making a lattice that encases the thinner ply floor.
                > I've built a couple like that and its pretty darn strong! I'm
                a fan of inside chine logs and a couple layers fiberglass and resin to
                seams, and resin coating whole outside of a hull..
                > first coats well thinned with acetone to help it penetrate-grab
                into the wood.
                > where I'm at, www.fiberglasssite.com is best prices and freshest
                resins.
                > I'm also a fan of epoxy-enamel concrete floor paint for its toughness,
                but at fiberglasssite they just started carrying white gelcoat for 60
                bucks a gallon, the stuff is even tougher and thicker than the floor
                paint. for sure gotta have something to protect resin on wood from
                sunlights effects. acetone thinned resin grabs in a whole lot better and
                far less likely to want to come loose anywhere. sure is cheeper than
                epoxy!
                > Â
                > dont get me wrong, I can see outside chine logs are GREAT for
                simplifying a build, also great if youre ever anticipating to have to
                replace a bottoms sheeting for whatever reason, and for protecting a
                chine joint from bumping into something. good stuff for a utility boat
                thats going to see some abuse, no doubt about it.
                > Â
                > this is me again, thoughts on boat.. I'd go twang, maybe even
                stretched a foot, all 3/8" and latticed in, as mentioned above. with 2x2
                (or 1-1/2 x 3) oak or similar hardwood as keel runner and 2 1x4 oakish
                runners 10-11" parallel from it.. theyed take the brunt of about
                anything floating, and theyed also be trying to lift the hull and
                letting some air slip thru. center keel runner tapering down to 1/2" the
                last 12-14" to transom, for "prop fill" reasons. full height to the end
                could make some turbulent bubbles and have ya prop cavitating out.Â
                its a flat bottom boat and theyre -going to- pound.. wide runnersÂ
                can help soften that pounding a bit, moreso if you manage to get a
                little air cushioning happening between em.. when it gets TOO rough then
                you probably wouldnt notice that at all either, but.. in smoother stuff,
                it could lessen some drag/grab and get ya there a little easier.
                jonboats kinda try for similar with the round beads pressed in, but its
                > moreso about stiffening the thinner sheet aluminum.
                > Â
                > I'm of the opinion that "fast" boats are like airframes, you need the
                structural integrity and rigidity, but overall, the lighter the better.
                a V hull is gonna have your lower unit poking deeper into the water, is
                bad news in shallower stuff, its going to want more power to get on
                plane than something flat, and will tip around more at rest.. but they
                sure arent going to pound as badly in anything rough. for what youre
                talking about as far as conditions, I might look at something maybe
                similar to john weselfords 'trover'
                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/trover/index.htm%c3%82 or halfway
                between that and http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/crd/index.htm%c3%82
                a 'clarence river dory'
                > that inset transom helping some driver weight forward for planing,
                the 2 resultant tails behaving as trim tabs or afterplanes to help keep
                the nose down too running in rougher stuff may be a little less likely
                to want to lift up and pound down.
                > Â
                > a trover type IS going to run deeper with your outboards lower unit. a
                V hull will usually involve more framing work and weight...
                > Â
                > I like bowdidges
                http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/bowdidge/mushulu14/index.htm
                > -guy is awful proud of his darn plans tho! it isnt exactly
                "rocket science" to make seat bulkheads as your frames for the keel and
                chines, for producing a small shallow V skiff type hull. no disrespect
                intended there, its a good lookin boat! (pricey on plans tho)
                > Â
                > the duckskiff.. again flat bottom, but its a freebie design.
                > http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/lewis/duckskiff/index.htm
                > Â
                > my last "long winded note" I mentioned the V curve pinch of the little
                "MiniMax" pumpkinseed hydroplane, if you look at that design a little,
                that pinch is followed through with a slightly curved bottom right on
                through to the transom. a couple things happen with that.. curved ply
                gains some rigidity/structure over the same sheet being flat, it'll lift
                that outside chine when cornering is far less likely to want to ever
                grab and roll.. 2" of convex will show 3-4" at that outside chine. that
                rounded shape is also going to mitigate some flat slab pounding action
                in wakes and chop, less hammering-stress-flexing to chine joints.
                > I did it to a small lightweight skiff I built a couple years back, it
                was as simple as crowning the seat bulkheads where they meet the floor,
                but I was only pushing 3/4, then 7/8 for it being a little wider at
                forward seat rear bulkhead.. then 5/8 and 1/2" to the rear seat
                bulkheads.. transom was still flat. this was a narrow floored 10-1/2 ft
                skiff from "Hannu's Boatyard" site, and was only 1/4" luan panel, so not
                much a challenge. I'm sure the floor felt less mushy than if it were
                dead flat, but this was a little skiff for trolling motor speeds.
                > Â
                > I'm thinking the right cut-n-pinch to what you're looking at, is going
                to soften that hard angled transition, following through with crowned
                seat bulkheads and transom...
                > now we're talking minor modification adjustment and improvement on
                Jims design...
                > that really just might be a better mousetrap overall, HEY JIM !!!
                > Â
                > it'd pinch in a slight V point, roll that front edge of the sheet
                upwards slightly, put some convex into what was dead flat.. adding
                rigidity and safety, mitigate some pounding..
                > and really not be straying very far at all from the original design or
                make the building more difficult.
                > I cant imagine pushing 2-1/2" or 3" of arc across 45-47" width into
                3/8 ply being difficult.
                > Â
                > - theres my .02 worth of "creative visualizations", but I dont
                know anything about hull designing softwares, seat bulkhead placements,
                or what kind of arcs would be needed to go from 3-4" forward to 2" at
                transom, or what kind of notch size/shape in front for a 2-3" arc
                straight on through.. but intuitively it sure sounds like a good
                modification overall..
                > I'm not at all intending to be critical, its like af4 giving birth to
                af4b..
                > maybe twang can give birth to a twang-ER for "extra rough"
                idk :)
                > Â
                > theres sure more than one idea mentioned above! the pinch and
                convex, the hard runners, and an inset motor board too. I'm not a
                designer, but have built scads of model boats, and have built 6 small
                boats now too (did I ever mention my ability to babble endlessly?).
                > I know the forward seat bulkhead nearer that pinch will probably want
                a little more V-ish shape than what'd be a simple arc too, orÂ
                straight line bottom edge and like struts to the floor where bottom
                runners will land.. hmmm.. fun question. that V pinch would also
                place the center bottom runner a little bit further back aft of the
                pinch..
                > Â
                > I know an inset motorboard is also going to transfer power moreso into
                the rear bench seat, that takes away needing a beefy-heavy full width
                transom. with my little fishin boat I went with just 5/8 ply and a 4"
                perimeter ring of same, then tied into the rear thwart bench and floor..
                lots lighter than 1-3/4" solid (and waterlogged!) ply that was there
                before. it has me picturing the engine 10-12" forward on the req'd 15
                degree motorboard, and nearer vertical transom tails ending 3-4"
                past the prop.. where if the lower unit struck something and kicked up,
                even turned, its still not going to "chainsaw" anything.
                > Â
                > obvious I like this twang concept.. OOPS!











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bud e
                Nels, Boy you sure picked a fantastic place to live Nels.  Defenetly my kind of place.  Be nice if my wife and I could ride my motorcycle out to see it.
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 27, 2010
                  Nels,
                  Boy you sure picked a fantastic place to live Nels.  Defenetly my kind of place.  Be nice if my wife and I could ride my motorcycle out to see it.  Thanks for your post.
                  Bud 

                  --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

                  From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                  Subject: [Michalak] Re: Twang and Alansboat
                  To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, August 25, 2010, 11:32 PM

                  Ken,

                  Great information - thanks - just what I was wondering about.

                  I don't really have any 1/4" plywood that I would trust in a power boat.
                  But I do have 3/8" and 5/8" MDO, so I think  maybe Alansboat is the way
                  to go.

                  Not really needing to go that fast but thinking if it planes it would
                  maybe burn less fuel than going displacement speeds, even with a smaller
                  motor?

                  A 6-8 hp 4-stroke might just do it. That would be ideal for use on my
                  sail boat as well and is about the smallest size that comes with an
                  alternator.

                  Nobody uses trolling motors here it seems. They all seem to have
                  trolling plates on their outboards.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • prairiedog2332
                  Hi Bud, Where are you located? Best time to come is June/July as August gets kind of nuts tourist-wise, and also very hot. I am not a biker but BC is very
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 28, 2010
                    Hi Bud,

                    Where are you located? Best time to come is June/July as August gets
                    kind of nuts tourist-wise, and also very hot. I am not a biker but BC is
                    very popular.

                    http://www.destinationhighways.com/regions.htm

                    I am sort of in between the North Okanagan and High Country sections. If
                    coming up from the south the Kootenays are considered one of the great
                    rides, up from Idaho to Revelstoke.

                    Then stop in and do some sailing/canoeing - (In order to keep things on
                    topic:-)

                    Nels

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, bud e <bud_4444@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nels,
                    > Boy you sure picked a fantastic place to live Nels. Defenetly my kind
                    of place. Be nice if my wife and I could ride my motorcycle out to see
                    it. Thanks for your post.
                    > Bud
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@... wrote:
                  • bud e
                    Hi Nels, I live in Michigan but will only be home this time for about 5 weeks.  Then we fly back to the Philippines.  Next year I hope to be back in the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 30, 2010
                      Hi Nels,
                      I live in Michigan but will only be home this time for about 5 weeks.  Then we fly back to the Philippines.  Next year I hope to be back in the states in May or June so will have much more time.
                      Some sailing/canoeing sounds great.
                      Bud

                      --- On Sat, 8/28/10, prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...> wrote:

                      From: prairiedog2332 <nelsarv@...>
                      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Biking in BC
                      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 1:50 PM

                      Hi Bud,

                      Where are you located? Best time to come is June/July as August gets
                      kind of nuts tourist-wise, and also very hot. I am not a biker but BC is
                      very popular.

                      http://www.destinationhighways.com/regions.htm

                      I am sort of in between the North Okanagan and High Country sections. If
                      coming up from the south the Kootenays are considered one of the great
                      rides, up from Idaho to Revelstoke.

                      Then stop in and do some sailing/canoeing - (In order to keep things on
                      topic:-)

                      Nels

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, bud e <bud_4444@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Nels,
                      > Boy you sure picked a fantastic place to live Nels.  Defenetly my kind
                      of place.  Be nice if my wife and I could ride my motorcycle out to see
                      it.  Thanks for your post.
                      > Bud
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@... wrote:





                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • prairiedog2332
                      Realistically, biking from Michigan to BC is a huge undertaking, especially if running into some poor weather! And you still have to get back. I camped in a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 30, 2010
                        Realistically, biking from Michigan to BC is a huge undertaking,
                        especially if running into some poor weather!

                        And you still have to get back.

                        I camped in a van to Long Island and back and met several bikers on long
                        trips. I would hesitate to do that again alone in a van, let alone on a
                        bike.

                        Nels


                        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, bud e <bud_4444@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Nels,
                        > I live in Michigan but will only be home this time for about 5 weeks.
                        Then we fly back to the Philippines. Next year I hope to be back in the
                        states in May or June so will have much more time.
                        > Some sailing/canoeing sounds great.
                        > Bud
                        >
                        > --- On Sat, 8/28/10, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@... wrote:
                        >
                        > From: prairiedog2332 nelsarv@...
                        > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Biking in BC
                        > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 1:50 PM
                        >
                        > Hi Bud,
                        >
                        > Where are you located? Best time to come is June/July as August gets
                        > kind of nuts tourist-wise, and also very hot. I am not a biker but BC
                        is
                        > very popular.
                        >
                        > http://www.destinationhighways.com/regions.htm
                        >
                        > I am sort of in between the North Okanagan and High Country sections.
                        If
                        > coming up from the south the Kootenays are considered one of the great
                        > rides, up from Idaho to Revelstoke.
                        >
                        > Then stop in and do some sailing/canoeing - (In order to keep things
                        on
                        > topic:-)
                        >
                        > Nels
                        >
                        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, bud e bud_4444@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Nels,
                        > > Boy you sure picked a fantastic place to live Nels. Defenetly my
                        kind
                        > of place. Be nice if my wife and I could ride my motorcycle out to
                        see
                        > it. Thanks for your post.
                        > > Bud
                        > >
                        > > --- On Wed, 8/25/10, prairiedog2332 nelsarv@ wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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