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Re: [Michalak] Re: Where to put the Wheel

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  • Alan Shapcott
    If it tacks poorly, maybe there is something not right with the basic balance- does it have weather-helm when going upwind in a bit of a breeze?   ... From:
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 7, 2010
      If it tacks poorly, maybe there is something not right with the basic balance- does it have weather-helm when going upwind in a bit of a breeze?
       

      --- On Sun, 7/3/10, skua1950 <michsand@...> wrote:

      From: skua1950 <michsand@...>
      Subject: [Michalak] Re: Where to put the Wheel
      To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 4:22 PM

      I think for now I'm going to go with a the hiking stick. I also want to try trimming the boat with some weight in the fo'c'sle. The boat has always tacked poorly, and maybe this will help.

      Mike
      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy <robrohdeszudy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Mike,
      >
      > I think Tom's half right. I'm thinking two vertical tillers, like the steering stick on my motorboat. I be the cabin is tall enough on that boat that the sticks won't constantly catch your mainsheet.
      >
      > While others have made some good points about trim, I do like having the helm further forward too. Better visibility, it seems. (On the light schooner anyway.) Feel free to hit me off list about the stick steering thing - I can send some pix.
      >
      > --Rob
      >
      >
      > Re: Where to put the Wheel
      >     Posted by: "Thomas Hamernik" onevenkeel@... onevenkeel
      >     Date: Fri Mar 5, 2010 6:07 pm ((PST))
      >
      > Two wheels - one to port, one to starboard.
      >
      >
      >
      >       
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >




      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nels A
      Other factors that come to mind: The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 7, 2010
        Other factors that come to mind:

        The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
        proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.

        Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking strap
        as rope will stretch.

        A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum when
        coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit more
        "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
        coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that is
        about the best you can normally expect.

        Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
        allow the hull to keep it's momentum.

        Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
        regard. Remember this is new design.

        Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2 should
        motor really easily.

        Nels




        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Alan Shapcott <logicaid@...> wrote:
        >
        > If it tacks poorly, maybe there is something not right with the basic
        balance- does it have weather-helm when going upwind in a bit of a
        breeze?
        >
        >
        > --- On Sun, 7/3/10, skua1950 michsand@... wrote:
        >
        > From: skua1950 michsand@...
        > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Where to put the Wheel
        > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 4:22 PM
        >
        > I think for now I'm going to go with a the hiking stick. I also want
        to try trimming the boat with some weight in the fo'c'sle. The boat has
        always tacked poorly, and maybe this will help.
        >
        > Mike
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Rob Rohde-Szudy robrohdeszudy@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Hey Mike,
        > >
        > > I think Tom's half right. I'm thinking two vertical tillers, like
        the steering stick on my motorboat. I be the cabin is tall enough on
        that boat that the sticks won't constantly catch your mainsheet.
        > >
        > > While others have made some good points about trim, I do like having
        the helm further forward too. Better visibility, it seems. (On the light
        schooner anyway.) Feel free to hit me off list about the stick steering
        thing - I can send some pix.
        > >
        > > --Rob
        > >
        > >
        > > Re: Where to put the Wheel
        > > Posted by: "Thomas Hamernik" onevenkeel@ onevenkeel
        > > Date: Fri Mar 5, 2010 6:07 pm ((PST))
        > >
        > > Two wheels - one to port, one to starboard.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Nels A
        Of course I meant the gaff and not the yard:-(
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 7, 2010
          Of course I meant the gaff and not the yard:-(


          --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
          >
          > Other factors that come to mind:
          >
          > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
          > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
          >
        • skua1950
          Nels, I guess maybe I wasn t doing as poorly as I thought, based on your comments. I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before she d start to
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 8, 2010
            Nels,

            I guess maybe I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought, based on your comments. I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before she'd start to luff. Come to think of it, sailing about 100 degrees off the wind isn't even tacking- that's a broad reach, isn't it. And if I sailed downwind from my point of origin, anything greater than 90 degrees means I ain't ever getting back, at least not under sail!

            The sail is polytarp (my 2nd one to build) and looked smooth in all respects when under sail. As for her helm, I tetsed it while out on Geneva Lake, and basically she has a tiny bit of lee helm when on a starboard tack... and a small bit of weather helm on a port tack. However, I did no experimenting in reagrds to trim during this test, so I'd have to say that the data is incomplete.

            I am curious, and hopefully I am not the only one on the forum who would ask this question. What are the specific symptoms one would see regarding handling if a boat is badly out of trim? Knowing these things may help me (and others) get more performance out of their boats.




            --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
            >
            > Other factors that come to mind:
            >
            > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
            > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
            >
            > Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking strap
            > as rope will stretch.
            >
            > A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum when
            > coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit more
            > "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
            > coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that is
            > about the best you can normally expect.
            >
            > Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
            > allow the hull to keep it's momentum.
            >
            > Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
            > regard. Remember this is new design.
            >
            > Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2 should
            > motor really easily.
            >
            > Nels
            >
          • John and Kathy Trussell
            Something that can happen (happened to me) is that the pivot hole in the kick up rudder becomes enlarged and this allows the rudder to cant to one side. This
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 8, 2010
              Something that can happen (happened to me) is that the pivot hole in the
              kick up rudder becomes enlarged and this allows the rudder to cant to one
              side. This reduces lateral resistance aft and leads to a lee helm. As you
              sail, you might want to check to make sure that your rudder blade is
              vertical (side to side). Given the asymmetries inherent in a single
              leeboard design and the difference in immersed leeboard as the boat heels,
              there are a lot of potential causes of lee or weather helm (and the wider
              the boat, the more likely it is to behave differently on opposite tacks).
              That's just the way it is.



              As far as checking trim, one way is to look at the sail plans and note how
              the boat sits in the water in the drawings. Then have an observer tell you
              when the boat is 'on her lines' or even take pictures which you can then
              compare to the drawings.



              JohnT



              _____

              From: Michalak@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Michalak@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of skua1950
              Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 9:15 AM
              To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Michalak] Re: Where to put the Wheel





              Nels,

              I guess maybe I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought, based on your comments.
              I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before she'd start to
              luff. Come to think of it, sailing about 100 degrees off the wind isn't even
              tacking- that's a broad reach, isn't it. And if I sailed downwind from my
              point of origin, anything greater than 90 degrees means I ain't ever getting
              back, at least not under sail!

              The sail is polytarp (my 2nd one to build) and looked smooth in all respects
              when under sail. As for her helm, I tetsed it while out on Geneva Lake, and
              basically she has a tiny bit of lee helm when on a starboard tack... and a
              small bit of weather helm on a port tack. However, I did no experimenting in
              reagrds to trim during this test, so I'd have to say that the data is
              incomplete.

              I am curious, and hopefully I am not the only one on the forum who would ask
              this question. What are the specific symptoms one would see regarding
              handling if a boat is badly out of trim? Knowing these things may help me
              (and others) get more performance out of their boats.

              --- In Michalak@yahoogroup <mailto:Michalak%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, "Nels
              A" <arvent@...> wrote:
              >
              > Other factors that come to mind:
              >
              > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
              > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
              >
              > Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking strap
              > as rope will stretch.
              >
              > A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum when
              > coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit more
              > "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
              > coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that is
              > about the best you can normally expect.
              >
              > Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
              > allow the hull to keep it's momentum.
              >
              > Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
              > regard. Remember this is new design.
              >
              > Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2 should
              > motor really easily.
              >
              > Nels
              >



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nels A
              Hi Mike, When I said, If you can tack within about 100 degrees... I meant for a complete tack sequence, so an average of 50 degrees to keep on course. But I
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 8, 2010
                Hi Mike,

                When I said, "If you can tack within about 100 degrees..." I meant for a
                complete tack sequence, so an average of 50 degrees to keep on course.
                But I think realistically it might end up closer to 60 degrees quite
                often. 65-70 is not so good. Since your boat is pretty much a prototype,
                I would contact Jim as I am sure he would be interested in how you are
                doing and could offer suggestions. In a worse case scenario, the COE of
                the sail may be too far forward compared to the CLR of the leeboard?

                This is very much what used to be called a "skimming dish" or
                "sandbagger" design, shallow draft with "lots of canvas", so you may
                need some additional ballast at times, especially if the wind pipes up.
                That is one big sail!

                A well balanced set-up should have a light helm with not much pressure
                required to hold course when reaching and if you let go of the tiller,
                it should swing away from you and round up into the wind.

                Have you checked to make sure the rudder is remaining fully vertical
                once you get up to speed? I think this might affect the helm a lot. Bet
                you can't even see it though from the helm position?

                Nels


                --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "skua1950" <michsand@...> wrote:
                >
                > Nels,
                >
                > I guess maybe I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought, based on your
                comments. I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before
                she'd start to luff. Come to think of it, sailing about 100 degrees off
                the wind isn't even tacking- that's a broad reach, isn't it. And if I
                sailed downwind from my point of origin, anything greater than 90
                degrees means I ain't ever getting back, at least not under sail!
                >
                > The sail is polytarp (my 2nd one to build) and looked smooth in all
                respects when under sail. As for her helm, I tetsed it while out on
                Geneva Lake, and basically she has a tiny bit of lee helm when on a
                starboard tack... and a small bit of weather helm on a port tack.
                However, I did no experimenting in reagrds to trim during this test, so
                I'd have to say that the data is incomplete.
                >
                > I am curious, and hopefully I am not the only one on the forum who
                would ask this question. What are the specific symptoms one would see
                regarding handling if a boat is badly out of trim? Knowing these things
                may help me (and others) get more performance out of their boats.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Other factors that come to mind:
                > >
                > > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
                > > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
                > >
                > > Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking
                strap
                > > as rope will stretch.
                > >
                > > A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum
                when
                > > coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit
                more
                > > "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
                > > coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that
                is
                > > about the best you can normally expect.
                > >
                > > Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
                > > allow the hull to keep it's momentum.
                > >
                > > Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
                > > regard. Remember this is new design.
                > >
                > > Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2
                should
                > > motor really easily.
                > >
                > > Nels
                > >
                >
              • skua1950
                Checking my rudder makes a lot of sense. While I am using locknuts to make sute it doesn t get wobbly, it is loose enought that it may be swinging up from the
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 8, 2010
                  Checking my rudder makes a lot of sense. While I am using locknuts to make sute it doesn't get wobbly, it is loose enought that it may be swinging up from the vertical at speed, so I will check that. I am also pllaning on either making or buying a new sail. The one I used last yet I threw together in a few hours, and it had lots of rough spots- I am hoping a better sail will help as well.

                  --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Mike,
                  >
                  > When I said, "If you can tack within about 100 degrees..." I meant for a
                  > complete tack sequence, so an average of 50 degrees to keep on course.
                  > But I think realistically it might end up closer to 60 degrees quite
                  > often. 65-70 is not so good. Since your boat is pretty much a prototype,
                  > I would contact Jim as I am sure he would be interested in how you are
                  > doing and could offer suggestions. In a worse case scenario, the COE of
                  > the sail may be too far forward compared to the CLR of the leeboard?
                  >
                  > This is very much what used to be called a "skimming dish" or
                  > "sandbagger" design, shallow draft with "lots of canvas", so you may
                  > need some additional ballast at times, especially if the wind pipes up.
                  > That is one big sail!
                  >
                  > A well balanced set-up should have a light helm with not much pressure
                  > required to hold course when reaching and if you let go of the tiller,
                  > it should swing away from you and round up into the wind.
                  >
                  > Have you checked to make sure the rudder is remaining fully vertical
                  > once you get up to speed? I think this might affect the helm a lot. Bet
                  > you can't even see it though from the helm position?
                  >
                  > Nels
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "skua1950" <michsand@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Nels,
                  > >
                  > > I guess maybe I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought, based on your
                  > comments. I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before
                  > she'd start to luff. Come to think of it, sailing about 100 degrees off
                  > the wind isn't even tacking- that's a broad reach, isn't it. And if I
                  > sailed downwind from my point of origin, anything greater than 90
                  > degrees means I ain't ever getting back, at least not under sail!
                  > >
                  > > The sail is polytarp (my 2nd one to build) and looked smooth in all
                  > respects when under sail. As for her helm, I tetsed it while out on
                  > Geneva Lake, and basically she has a tiny bit of lee helm when on a
                  > starboard tack... and a small bit of weather helm on a port tack.
                  > However, I did no experimenting in reagrds to trim during this test, so
                  > I'd have to say that the data is incomplete.
                  > >
                  > > I am curious, and hopefully I am not the only one on the forum who
                  > would ask this question. What are the specific symptoms one would see
                  > regarding handling if a boat is badly out of trim? Knowing these things
                  > may help me (and others) get more performance out of their boats.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Other factors that come to mind:
                  > > >
                  > > > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
                  > > > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking
                  > strap
                  > > > as rope will stretch.
                  > > >
                  > > > A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum
                  > when
                  > > > coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit
                  > more
                  > > > "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
                  > > > coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that
                  > is
                  > > > about the best you can normally expect.
                  > > >
                  > > > Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
                  > > > allow the hull to keep it's momentum.
                  > > >
                  > > > Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
                  > > > regard. Remember this is new design.
                  > > >
                  > > > Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2
                  > should
                  > > > motor really easily.
                  > > >
                  > > > Nels
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Alan Shapcott
                  If it does swing up any more than a little, you will be able to tell as the tiller will become very heavy when that happens. Easiest thing might be to try with
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 8, 2010
                    If it does swing up any more than a little, you will be able to tell as the tiller will become very heavy when that happens. Easiest thing might be to try with some crew and put them far forward, see what results. Should shift  underwater centre forward and provide more 'ballast' simultaneously.
                    Cheers,
                    Alan.

                    --- On Tue, 9/3/10, skua1950 <michsand@...> wrote:

                    From: skua1950 <michsand@...>
                    Subject: [Michalak] Re: Where to put the Wheel
                    To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, 9 March, 2010, 6:00 AM

                    Checking my rudder makes a lot of sense. While I am using locknuts to make sute it doesn't get wobbly, it is loose enought that it may be swinging up from the vertical at speed, so I will check that. I am also pllaning on either making or buying a new sail. The one I used last yet I threw together in a few hours, and it had lots of rough spots- I am hoping a better sail will help as well.

                    --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Mike,
                    >
                    > When I said, "If you can tack within about 100 degrees..." I meant for a
                    > complete tack sequence, so an average of 50 degrees to keep on course.
                    > But I think realistically it might end up closer to 60 degrees quite
                    > often. 65-70 is not so good. Since your boat is pretty much a prototype,
                    > I would contact Jim as I am sure he would be interested in how you are
                    > doing and could offer suggestions. In a worse case scenario, the COE of
                    > the sail may be too far forward compared to the CLR of the leeboard?
                    >
                    > This is very much what used to be called a "skimming dish" or
                    > "sandbagger" design, shallow draft with "lots of canvas", so you may
                    > need some additional ballast at times, especially if the wind pipes up.
                    > That is one big sail!
                    >
                    > A well balanced set-up should have a light helm with not much pressure
                    > required to hold course when reaching and if you let go of the tiller,
                    > it should swing away from you and round up into the wind.
                    >
                    > Have you checked to make sure the rudder is remaining fully vertical
                    > once you get up to speed? I think this might affect the helm a lot.  Bet
                    > you can't even see it though from the helm position?
                    >
                    > Nels
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "skua1950" <michsand@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Nels,
                    > >
                    > > I guess maybe I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought, based on your
                    > comments. I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before
                    > she'd start to luff. Come to think of it, sailing about 100 degrees off
                    > the wind isn't even tacking- that's a broad reach, isn't it. And if I
                    > sailed downwind from my point of origin, anything greater than 90
                    > degrees means I ain't ever getting back, at least not under sail!
                    > >
                    > > The sail is polytarp (my 2nd one to build) and looked smooth in all
                    > respects when under sail. As for her helm, I tetsed it while out on
                    > Geneva Lake, and basically she has a tiny bit of lee helm when on a
                    > starboard tack... and a small bit of weather helm on a port tack.
                    > However, I did no experimenting in reagrds to trim during this test, so
                    > I'd have to say that the data is incomplete.
                    > >
                    > > I am curious, and hopefully I am not the only one on the forum who
                    > would ask this question. What are the specific symptoms one would see
                    > regarding handling if a boat is badly out of trim? Knowing these things
                    > may help me (and others) get more performance out of their boats.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Other factors that come to mind:
                    > > >
                    > > > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
                    > > > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking
                    > strap
                    > > > as rope will stretch.
                    > > >
                    > > > A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum
                    > when
                    > > > coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit
                    > more
                    > > > "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
                    > > > coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that
                    > is
                    > > > about the best you can normally expect.
                    > > >
                    > > > Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
                    > > > allow the hull to keep it's momentum.
                    > > >
                    > > > Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
                    > > > regard. Remember this is new design.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2
                    > should
                    > > > motor really easily.
                    > > >
                    > > > Nels
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >




                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • skua1950
                    Sounds like a plan- thanks! I ll be looking for volunteers at Rend lake. She seats 4 adults easily, so we ll have room for plenty of inspectors ! Mike
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 10, 2010
                      Sounds like a plan- thanks! I'll be looking for volunteers at Rend lake. She seats 4 adults easily, so we'll have room for plenty of "inspectors"!

                      Mike

                      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, Alan Shapcott <logicaid@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > If it does swing up any more than a little, you will be able to tell as the tiller will become very heavy when that happens. Easiest thing might be to try with some crew and put them far forward, see what results. Should shift  underwater centre forward and provide more 'ballast' simultaneously.
                      > Cheers,
                      > Alan.
                      >
                      > --- On Tue, 9/3/10, skua1950 <michsand@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: skua1950 <michsand@...>
                      > Subject: [Michalak] Re: Where to put the Wheel
                      > To: Michalak@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Tuesday, 9 March, 2010, 6:00 AM
                      >
                      > Checking my rudder makes a lot of sense. While I am using locknuts to make sute it doesn't get wobbly, it is loose enought that it may be swinging up from the vertical at speed, so I will check that. I am also pllaning on either making or buying a new sail. The one I used last yet I threw together in a few hours, and it had lots of rough spots- I am hoping a better sail will help as well.
                      >
                      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Mike,
                      > >
                      > > When I said, "If you can tack within about 100 degrees..." I meant for a
                      > > complete tack sequence, so an average of 50 degrees to keep on course.
                      > > But I think realistically it might end up closer to 60 degrees quite
                      > > often. 65-70 is not so good. Since your boat is pretty much a prototype,
                      > > I would contact Jim as I am sure he would be interested in how you are
                      > > doing and could offer suggestions. In a worse case scenario, the COE of
                      > > the sail may be too far forward compared to the CLR of the leeboard?
                      > >
                      > > This is very much what used to be called a "skimming dish" or
                      > > "sandbagger" design, shallow draft with "lots of canvas", so you may
                      > > need some additional ballast at times, especially if the wind pipes up.
                      > > That is one big sail!
                      > >
                      > > A well balanced set-up should have a light helm with not much pressure
                      > > required to hold course when reaching and if you let go of the tiller,
                      > > it should swing away from you and round up into the wind.
                      > >
                      > > Have you checked to make sure the rudder is remaining fully vertical
                      > > once you get up to speed? I think this might affect the helm a lot.  Bet
                      > > you can't even see it though from the helm position?
                      > >
                      > > Nels
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "skua1950" <michsand@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Nels,
                      > > >
                      > > > I guess maybe I wasn't doing as poorly as I thought, based on your
                      > > comments. I could usually get within 65-70 degrees of the wind before
                      > > she'd start to luff. Come to think of it, sailing about 100 degrees off
                      > > the wind isn't even tacking- that's a broad reach, isn't it. And if I
                      > > sailed downwind from my point of origin, anything greater than 90
                      > > degrees means I ain't ever getting back, at least not under sail!
                      > > >
                      > > > The sail is polytarp (my 2nd one to build) and looked smooth in all
                      > > respects when under sail. As for her helm, I tetsed it while out on
                      > > Geneva Lake, and basically she has a tiny bit of lee helm when on a
                      > > starboard tack... and a small bit of weather helm on a port tack.
                      > > However, I did no experimenting in reagrds to trim during this test, so
                      > > I'd have to say that the data is incomplete.
                      > > >
                      > > > I am curious, and hopefully I am not the only one on the forum who
                      > > would ask this question. What are the specific symptoms one would see
                      > > regarding handling if a boat is badly out of trim? Knowing these things
                      > > may help me (and others) get more performance out of their boats.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Other factors that come to mind:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The cut and set of the sail? Is the yard peaked properly to give a
                      > > > > proper shape with no girt in the sail, which kills the air flow.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Sail twist when the boom raises? Bolger recommends a wire kicking
                      > > strap
                      > > > > as rope will stretch.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > A light displacement unballasted boat like FC2 has little momentum
                      > > when
                      > > > > coming about, so best to get the speed up first by sailing a bit
                      > > more
                      > > > > "loose and free" and not pinch it into the wind, or it might stall
                      > > > > coming through irons. If you can tack within about 100 degrees that
                      > > is
                      > > > > about the best you can normally expect.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Don't over-rudder, which also slows momentum but carve the turn, and
                      > > > > allow the hull to keep it's momentum.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Michalak also mentions a bit larger rudder area might help in this
                      > > > > regard. Remember this is new design.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Sometimes motor sailing in light winds is the best choice. FC2
                      > > should
                      > > > > motor really easily.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Nels
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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