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Re: Reef point placement for RAIDER's lug sail

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  • wwbaginski
    Hi Nels, I can t open the link to that Bolger sail plan alas. The only experience I had with jiffy reefing system so far was on a big sailboat (40 footer ) and
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
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      Hi Nels,

      I can't open the link to that Bolger sail plan alas. The only experience I had with jiffy reefing system so far was on a big sailboat (40 footer ) and it was big help because the sail dropped a bit down was just waiting in until a crew will walk along the boom and tie several reef lines, one after another.

      On a small dinghy this advantage seems to be unneccesary - except when solo sailing. This is probably the reason Jim wrote about it (he says " always choose a boat for yourself, not for your family or your friends").

      Raider is thought to be crewed by few oarsmen, so they can do this job. In addition, every extra rope on a small dinghy can make a mess when you don't expect it.

      So, it seems to me that reef lines should be tied anyway, otherwise the sail will be blown out from its "jiffy" bed with strong wind. Including those fully battened I 'm afraid.

      Can't catch my sailmaker at the moment...:-(

      Wojtek


      --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" <arvent@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Wojtek,
      >
      > Sounds like you should listen to your sail maker and not me! Now the
      > question remains - how much of an angle?
      >
      > I was thinking of the "jiffy reef" system with a longer line at the clew
      > and tack that runs through holes (dumb sheaves) each end of the boom
      > which does not have to be tied at all - just cleated at a central
      > location under the boom. Illustrated by Jim's article.
      >
      > <http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2000/0615/index.htm#BALANC\
      > ED%20LUG%20JIFFY%20REEF>
      >
      > In fact, if you install a batten at each reef point, you need no ties at
      > all. This illustrated by a big sail plan on a Bolger design. All reefing
      > done from the pilot house. Very much like a junk sail. But more
      > complicated than you require.
      >
      > <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/APCHS5Ykbb3BdPQP-WWtx43DKHU2ElD9bgpvj_7Unr\
      > pnQjqeGNKQF25AhPQ0YeLn0hSq0ZGT6f9WzUk516cb/Balanced%20Lug%20Notes%20and%\
      > 20Ideas/Alaska_motorsailer_sailplan.jpg>
      >
      > If you click on the image it enlarges for a closer view. I would be
      > interested what your sail maker would think of that? I would like to try
      > something like that.
      >
      > Nels
      >
      > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "wwbaginski" <wwbaginski@> wrote:
      >
      > > Hi , I was just talking to my sailmaker about reefing areas and he
      > said - being not even asked by me - that reef lines use to run not
      > exactly parallel to the boom but are a very little bit angled (upper on
      > the leech) to make new clews easier to tie.
      > >
      > > I revised it in my lubber's mind and looks he's right (and Norm's
      > question was right). If you just drop clews on the boom you get them
      > more distanced if reef lines go slightly up. Easier/ quicker (no mess
      > with the old clew line) to tie, what is most important in rough
      > conditions.
      > >
      > > Thank you Nels :)
      > >
      > > Wojtek
      > >
      >
    • Nels A
      Wojtek, The drawing is in the files here in the folder Balanced Lug Notes and Ideas , together with Jim s article. Each batten is secured at both ends in one
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 1, 2010
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        Wojtek,

        The drawing is in the files here in the folder "Balanced Lug Notes and
        Ideas", together with Jim's article.

        Each batten is secured at both ends in one loop of line that goes
        through the boom and when pulled down to the boom is cleated off as well
        as supported by the lazy jacks. No knots to tie or untie. But as you
        mention the jiffy lines are longer than the reefing cringles on a
        standard set-up.

        I think jiffy reefing with a batten at each reef point would work best
        in a design with a slot-top as there is only the one line for each reef
        and it only has to be looped around the centrally located cleat under
        the boom. And it does not have to be secured immediately as the weight
        of the batten should lie along the boom while one rounds up, as with a
        junk sail that has no jiffy lines at all.

        If the slot top is closed then one requires a central "hatch" under the
        cleat on the boom to reach up through to tighten and cleat off the jiffy
        line. An overlapping velcroed flap like on a rain parka or or a
        water-tight zipper or something.

        This is another instance where a mizzen comes in handy when soloing (As
        well as a tiller control line.) - to hold the boat into the wind while
        the skipper moves ahead to secure the reef.

        Seems to me, installing a batten is a lot simpler than sewing in and
        reinforcing all those reef points if making your own sail and may even
        be stronger if the sail is made from polytarp. The trick is that the
        battens have to be flexible enough to bend some or the sail will be too
        flat, while at the same time having some weight so when the halyard is
        loosened the sail will drop. If too light you have to go forward to haul
        down the jiffy line by hand probably.

        Mike Mulcahy shows how in his junk sail article. He also shows how to
        add darts to give the sail some camber. He uses small screws to secure
        the battens so they are removable if one breaks or you want to adjust
        the "bendiness".

        http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/howto/junkrig/index.htm

        Here is what Jim has to say about the jiffy lines.

        There is a reef line tied permanently to each corner patch of the new
        reef foot. Those lines run down through faired holes drilled in the boom
        end, then they run to an open based cleat near the center of the boom.
        In practice those two reef lines can really be just one continuous line
        running from one reef corner, through the boom, through the base of the
        cleat, throught the other hole and on to the other reef corner.

        The location of the holes in the boom is fairly critical. They must be
        placed such that when the reef lines are pulled tight and cleated, the
        corners of the reefed sail are pulled down and slightly outward to
        stretch the foot of the sail just the right amount. Expect to
        experiment. Since lug sails usually taper a bit, the reef line holes
        tend to fall slightly inside the unreefed attachments.

        The location of the cleat on the boom isn't too critical except that it
        should be in a place handy when reefing. Better towards the front of the
        boom than aft.

        --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "wwbaginski" <wwbaginski@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Nels,
        >
        > I can't open the link to that Bolger sail plan alas. The only
        experience I had with jiffy reefing system so far was on a big sailboat
        (40 footer ) and it was big help because the sail dropped a bit down was
        just waiting in until a crew will walk along the boom and tie several
        reef lines, one after another.
        >
        > On a small dinghy this advantage seems to be unneccesary - except
        when solo sailing. This is probably the reason Jim wrote about it (he
        says " always choose a boat for yourself, not for your family or your
        friends").
        >
        > Raider is thought to be crewed by few oarsmen, so they can do this
        job. In addition, every extra rope on a small dinghy can make a mess
        when you don't expect it.
        >
        > So, it seems to me that reef lines should be tied anyway, otherwise
        the sail will be blown out from its "jiffy" bed with strong wind.
        Including those fully battened I 'm afraid.
        >
        > Can't catch my sailmaker at the moment...:-(
        >
        > Wojtek
        >
        >
        > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "Nels A" arvent@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Wojtek,
        > >
        > > Sounds like you should listen to your sail maker and not me! Now the
        > > question remains - how much of an angle?
        > >
        > > I was thinking of the "jiffy reef" system with a longer line at the
        clew
        > > and tack that runs through holes (dumb sheaves) each end of the boom
        > > which does not have to be tied at all - just cleated at a central
        > > location under the boom. Illustrated by Jim's article.
        > >
        > >
        <http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2000/0615/index.htm#BALANC\
        \
        > > ED%20LUG%20JIFFY%20REEF>
        > >
        > > In fact, if you install a batten at each reef point, you need no
        ties at
        > > all. This illustrated by a big sail plan on a Bolger design. All
        reefing
        > > done from the pilot house. Very much like a junk sail. But more
        > > complicated than you require.
        > >
        > >
        <http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/APCHS5Ykbb3BdPQP-WWtx43DKHU2ElD9bgpvj_7Unr\
        \
        > >
        pnQjqeGNKQF25AhPQ0YeLn0hSq0ZGT6f9WzUk516cb/Balanced%20Lug%20Notes%20and%\
        \
        > > 20Ideas/Alaska_motorsailer_sailplan.jpg>
        > >
        > > If you click on the image it enlarges for a closer view. I would be
        > > interested what your sail maker would think of that? I would like to
        try
        > > something like that.
        > >
        > > Nels
        > >
        > > --- In Michalak@yahoogroups.com, "wwbaginski" <wwbaginski@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Hi , I was just talking to my sailmaker about reefing areas and he
        > > said - being not even asked by me - that reef lines use to run not
        > > exactly parallel to the boom but are a very little bit angled (upper
        on
        > > the leech) to make new clews easier to tie.
        > > >
        > > > I revised it in my lubber's mind and looks he's right (and Norm's
        > > question was right). If you just drop clews on the boom you get them
        > > more distanced if reef lines go slightly up. Easier/ quicker (no
        mess
        > > with the old clew line) to tie, what is most important in rough
        > > conditions.
        > > >
        > > > Thank you Nels :)
        > > >
        > > > Wojtek
        > > >
        > >
        >



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